Zero sum game over parades continues between OFMdFM parties…

Here’s a good one, the DUP Minister at Social Development has commissioned a report (original here, courtesy of Morpheus below) that says that parades bring in £55 million a year [there’s a surprise – ed]. Except that the former Lord Mayor of Belfast says what it does not take account of is:

…the mass exodus of people from the North during the height of the ‘marching season’ or the amount of people put off from coming here by the associated trouble linked to those few controversial parades,” he said. “The cost of this negative image is incalculable.”

Quite… The real question is though lads, what are youse going to do about?

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  • Morpheus

    It was paid for my the Department of Social Development but the client was The Grand Orange Lodge of Ireland
    http://www.grandorangelodge.co.uk/docs/may13-report.pdf

    The report highlights some fantastic volunteer work but a quick glance shows the vast, vast majority comes the bands. The headline is that £13.9m is spent on transport – table 10.154 asks: How much has your Lodge/Preceptory/Chapter etc. spent on transport over the last 12 months?
    Even if we go with the highest estimates the Lodges/Preceptorys/Chapters contribute just 1.4%.

  • Mick Fealty

    Good find Morph, will include in the original post…

  • The negative costs are calculable. Start from the tourisms figures, compare arrivals during marching season versus other times in the summer, and multiple by average spending per tourist. Then add on the foregone expenses of local residents who leave. Finally, use brand measurement techniques (from the private sector) to give a financial value on the positive and negative image changes.

  • Morpheus

    I have trawled through the report Mick and it is a stretch to say the least. If the bands were taken out – the same bands who were disavowed when it kicked off last summer – then it paints a very different story.

    The report highlights some fantastic volunteer work but a quick glance shows the vast, vast majority comes the bands.

    As I said earlier, the headline is that £13.9m is spent on transport – table 10.154 asks: How much has your Lodge/Preceptory/Chapter etc. spent on transport over the last 12 months? Even if we go with the highest estimates the Lodges/Preceptorys/Chapters contribute just 1.4%.

    The headline says that £1.5m is spent on outside catering. Table 10.159: How much have you spent on outside catering over the last 12 months? Again taking the highest estimate that equates to less than 7.5%.

    Table 10.172: Do any other organisations meet in your halls? 77% say no. Of the ones who say yes the list includes Credit unions, Lodge, Bands, Community groups, Women’s groups, Junior lodge and 60% of those pay rent.

    It just emphasizes the point that the bands are what’s important.

    In the interests of balance I look forward to the DSD report which puts a monetary value on the GAA

  • Ulster Press Centre

    Anyone ‘put off’ from coming to Northern Ireland over the July holiday weekend will be ‘put off’ because of far-right Nationalist/catholic fundamentalist violence and thuggery – not by the colourful, peaceful parades which bring hundreds of thousands of people out onto the streets to enjoy our culture.

    Anyhoo, all hotel rooms across Belfast are booked out every year so there’d be nowhere for them to stay anyway….

  • Mick Fealty

    I would not want the money spent. Does anyone seriously question the value of sport in any form? As for parades, it is the contestation of over physical ground that racks up the cost, not the parades itself.

    For me that’s a problem looking for a political solution, not just another contest (inside the most powerful office in government) over a cost/benefit analysis.

  • Morpheus

    “Anyone ‘put off’ from coming to Northern Ireland over the July holiday weekend will be ‘put off’ because of far-right Nationalist/catholic fundamentalist violence and thuggery – not by the colourful, peaceful parades which bring hundreds of thousands of people out onto the streets to enjoy our culture.”

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYMZlkhRllU
    http://media.irishcentral.com/images/419*234/Orangeman+urinates.jpg

    Yeah, beautiful isn’t it?

    Please explain ‘far-right Nationalist/catholic’ or is this another term like ‘fascist’ that is thrown about in pure ignorance of it’s actual meaning.

  • Ulster Press Centre

    Someone got caught short and needed an urgent pee – yes, that only happens in Northern Ireland….

  • Morpheus

    Yes and the video only proves that there weren’t adequate dance facilities for the bandsmen and their children *facepalm*

  • Ulster Press Centre

    I suppose they did it to offend catholics in Comber too???

  • Morpheus

    You put that up here as a good thing? An advertisement?
    https://www.taxpayers.org.au/wp/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/double-facepalm.jpg

  • Mick Fealty

    Can we lay off the name calling and get down to something a bit more serious lads? [although a clash of two ‘rights’ does have a certain authentic ring to it since this is essentially a clash over land rights, as well as classic ‘civil rights’]

  • Morpheus

    Fair enough.

    “OrangeTest Reports
    Overall, both positive and negative impacts were recorded from retailers. Footfall was perceived to be less than expected, with an average of 64% stating that their expectations for footfall was not met over the three years. Sales were also reported as somewhat disappointing, with an average of 65% of businesses stating that they had underperformed against their target. However, an average of 10% of respondents replied that sales had exceeded expectations, and these tended to be convenience traders such as food outlets and newsagents.

    “Social Integration
    All respondents believed that band membership promotes social integration and helps
    members integrate into society when asked how does it help social integration, they
    responded that this happens through attendance at social events, helping to provide
    awareness of the Protestant culture ”

    Is that social integration?

    “Conclusions
    Overall, the Protestant Parading Sector plays a significant role in the lives of members
    whether these are Loyal Order members or band members”

    I don’t think anyone can dispute that it benefits it’s members.

    In short, this report does highlight lots of good volunteer work but some of the conclusions verge on the farcical.

  • antamadan

    The Orange marching season brings in a lot more than £55 million all right;
    to the south.

    Exodus isn’t just a Bob Marley song.

  • Old Mortality

    Could the mass ‘exodus’ of people on holiday over the 12th period have anything to do with :

    (1) It falls within the first two weeks of the school holidays.

    (2) Almost any popular holiday destination will be cheaper in early July than later in the summer.

    If anyone can point to any exceptions, please let me know. If not, can we please put this old canard to bed.

  • between the bridges

    The estimated tourist gain was 20-25 million, the figure wasn’t included as last year was probably higher than average due to the centenary celebrations.
    The parading season attracts a lot of stereotypical negativity, but the simple fact is 1 in 8 PUL is directly involved and 1 in 3 have some involvement i.e attend the 12th. Of approx 2400 PUL parades a year approx 7% have any objections lodged with the PC of those less than 1% attract protests and attract the media.

    Those that decide to judge the 99% of trouble free non contentious parades by the standard of the hyperbole surrounding the 1% could perhaps look at their judgement criteria…

  • Regardless of how many reports are published and how many discussions are held in Cardiff or elsewhere..

    There are a number of unwelcome parades through Greater Ardoyne, Carrickhill, Rasharkin, Newtownbutler and Dunloy in which the Loyal Orders refuse to properly engage with local residents…

    It is this refusal which leads to increased tensions which often culminates in unwelcome trouble. The only way to force the issue to be resolved is for the Orders to be refused permission to march in these areas until they hold proper discussions with residents face to face! Otherwise, the potential for further trouble will always occur!

    Regards the amount of Nationalists who leave the North every July, particularly from these areas is massive and sadly it leaves more and more families having to leave their homes and communities year in and year out.

  • Old Mortality

    Ardoyne Republican
    ‘Regards the amount of Nationalists who leave the North every July, particularly from these areas is massive and sadly it leaves more and more families having to leave their homes and communities year in and year out.’

    What is massive? More than half? How do you account for those who are simply going on holiday, although not to Donegal, it would seem?

  • I think that the Parades Commission is a sensible ad hoc solution to a problem that is basically political. The Drumcree controversy got started because it became a proxy contest between the paramilitary organizations of the two sides. It was a way for Adams to keep the IRA occupied after the first ceasefire. And it became a venue for what eventually became the LVF to assert its independence from the UVF and for quite a few unionist politicians to posture and build a public image. Drumcree I was the making of Trimble as the leader of the UUP.

    As the OO refuses to engage with a number of the residents committees and some of them go out of their way to prevent that engagement, the Parades Commission is necessary. Its decisions should be legally enforced so that bands that violate them are refused permission to march for at least one year–if not more. Only by giving teeth to the Parades Commission will respect be created for its decisions.

  • sherdy

    Morph – How could there be any transport costs – they march everywhere.
    We are constantly being told how important Orange halls are as a community amenity – but now we’re told that 77% of them do not allow them such use.
    BTW, was this survey organised by Nelson McCausland, and paid for by Stormont, for the benefit of the Orange Order?
    They also get massive grants from the EU and the IFI for cross-community work, and then refuse to have discussions with anyone not wearing a collarette.

  • Morpheus

    @sherdy

    Table 10.155: How many times a year would you hire a coach/bus? 93% of Lodges hire coaches/buses between 5 or less times a year.

  • Comrade Stalin

    The report on the Orange Order and it’s contribution is ridiculous. A leaf through the document produced the gem :

    Almost half (48%) of all band members surveyed reported participating in community related work through their band. Band members were asked to estimate the amount of time they spent on community work per week. This figure was aggregated for all band members assumed to be involved in community work and calculated per annum. This was then multiplied by a proxy measure (the national minimum wage) to determine the economic impact of band members’ time. This resulted in a figure of £18,691,893 per annum (as shown in the table below).

    What an absolute joke. Band members self-assessed their contribution to “community work” (what does that mean – painting kerbstones, erecting flegs ?) which was then extrapolated upwards to generate a nonsensical figure.

    This was an misuse of public money to serve a political cause.

  • Neil

    They asked bands how many hours voluntary work they did. they multiplied the reponse by minimum wage and tacked that onto their figure. It’s almost funny. A minimum of 15 million quid added onto ‘the economy’ based on the number of hours of charity work those altruistic orangemen self assessed they committed over the year and hey presto, millions. And without a penny for the revenue. Convenient, wha? Bit of a joke.

    Oh and UPC was it not you who produced the same ‘not a hotel room in the city’ argument at the height of the twelfth last year only to be confronted with a hotel search from hotels.com yielding a veritable plethora of available rooms? It’s a lie. Hotel rooms are easy to get during the twelfth. Tourists aren’t as dumb as you think. they know to stay away during the madness, see shop footfall. Bad for business, bad for empty hotels and bad for relations. But then to a self admitted UVF fan who cares, misinformation is the way to go, then maybe you can amuse us some more by forgetting to switch accounts while you agree with yourself. lol.

  • Morpheus
  • between the bridges

    CS and neil, I filled in a form and I had no need to exaggerate what role the band plays…Perceptions of marching bands from both traditions are influenced by a combination of individual and community thinking some of which is based on misunderstanding and misinformation. Such perceptions dominate and preclude society from recognizing valuing the work of marching bands as a way of celebrating and preserving culture and identity but also of the important social function that bands perform.

    In addition to more obvious contribution to community arts bands play a significant role yet often unrecognised in society indeed many were the precursor to community development. They promote intergenerational activity, address rural isolation, provide social cohesion and instil a sense of identity and belonging. In particular bands play an important function for young people often acting as the only locally based form of youth activity in the area. Membership of a band brings with it the opportunity to develop team building skills, leadership skills and social mobility skills all of which are the foundation for future involvement in community development and active citizenship.

  • Submariner

    Certain bands also perpetuate sectarian hatred and continuing support for which ever loyalist murder gang they are associated with in young impressionable kids from loyalist areas.

  • between the bridges

    Sub and? certain GAA clubs hand out IRA medals to U12 there by continuing to perpetuate sectarian hatred and continuing support for which ever republican murder gang they are associated with in young impressionable kids from nationalists areas…

  • Submariner

    Whatabout

  • between the bridges

    Delflection…

  • between the bridges

    Ophs! deflection part deux…

  • Submariner

    BTB its not often that someone crams so much BS into one paragraph but you managed it. The Loyalist band scene along with the Loyal orders is in my opinion the single biggest contributing factor to the sectarian bigotry which is endemic within the working class loyalist community.

  • between the bridges

    Sub maybe someday everyone will be as open minded as you but until then it’s only your opinion on a subject you no next to nothing about and as an insider my opinion differs to yours…

  • Submariner

    Well BTB would you care to enlighten us as to what you believe is the major cause of the sectarianism within the PUL community.

  • Comrade Stalin

    BtB, sounds like bollocks to me.

    Seriously, but, don’t get me wrong. I have no wish to inhibit bands or marching and I have no problem with (modest) amounts of public money being spent in support of it. Indeed public money is already spent in the form of police time, fire brigade service (11th night), funding allocations for bonfires etc. In other jurisdictions this wouldn’t happen.

    But please don’t patronize me with this bullshit about this stuff being some sort of net benefit to society. Team building skills my arse.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Anyhoo, all hotel rooms across Belfast are booked out every year so there’d be nowhere for them to stay anyway….

    The very loyal Day’s Hotel is booked out on the 12th but plenty of nearby places such as the Holiday Inn on Ormeau Ave have rooms at £65.

  • between the bridges

    Sub..tea eggs.

    CS just because you choose not to believe, doesn’t mean it’s not true, many of the preoffended in CNR community wish to delude themsleves that the bands exist solely to annoy them! FFS talk about being up your own rear end, conceited twats! As someone who attends practice 48 weeks of the year, approx 40 parades and various concerts I can assure you it is merely a minor fringe benefit… I did 2 parades last night and another one tomorrow, I only mention them in the hope that it will offend someone (how else could I get my jollies)…

  • Monty_Carlo

    BTB

    You travel in time as well!?

  • Submariner

    BTB I take it we are not going to get your thoughts on the causes of sectarianism within the OIL community.