Viewing platform, Orange Hall, Clifton St

see www.newlodge.com

The above photo is taken from the New Lodge Facebook page galleries which includes a photo gallery of the build-up to yesterdays Republican Network for Unity’s Henry Joy McCracken commemoration at the cemetery in Henry Place. Whilst the RNU event had been processed via an application to the Parades Commission (and not classified as sensitive), the loyalist protest that developed outside the Orange Orders Clifton Street building was not. The gallery includes some shots of the crowd beginning to gather outside the Orange Hall and several shots of the assembled photographers on the balcony taking photographs of the parade as it passed into Henry Place.

I am not going to pretend I can name the figures on the viewing platform but most commentators are identifying them as being associated with the UVF (e.g. see Ardoyne Republicans blog). If that is the case, any Orange Order clarification on the matter would be interesting (to say the least). As far as I can tell, the camera location for much of the footage Mick has blogged was shot from in front of the Orange Hall.

The loyalist protest was neither spontaneous, as it was trailed across social media over the weekend, nor legal, as there was no application to the Parades Commission. As I’ve already pointed out, I suspect this is going to continue to brew during September.

Whatever happens, the DPP is going to be busy.

, , , ,

  • babyface finlayson

    BluesJazz
    “Some (if not most) of the people involved looked to be thoroughly enjoying themselves.”
    That was certainly my impression.
    Not fear of intimidation or attack, but excitement and anticipation.
    And that only makes it all the harder to resolve.

  • John Ó Néill

    Mick – I would suggest the media also have to re-learn how to facilitate public discourse. There are too many long-standing memes. When people discuss ‘truth’ as a central issue – do the broadcast and print and online media know how to unpack the narrow language they use and genuinely probe events and their context without immediately falling back on stereotyped reporting. I’m not absolving politicians (and all parties actively facilitate this, not just SF or DUP) but there is a lack of conviction and belief in a merit-based discussion of anything once it’s channelled by the press. Too much embedded reporting.

  • Submariner

    Mick im away on business at the minute and cant view the video on this dam phone,however let me make it clear im 100% behind the PSNI who I believe havent been tough enough with the scum on both sides in relation to law breaking. I have a problem with certain unionist posters on this board falling over themselves to excuse law breaking by the RBP and the loyalist terrorist bands the other week and their navel gazing in relation to the fact that Winkie and his UVF colleagues are running the agenda in relaion to what is happening at present. Im not surprised that the Shankill UVF were on that balcony given the OO in Belfasts strong links to loyalist terrorists the UVF in particular. It really is way past time that unionist politicians showed some leadership instead of cowtowing to Winkie and co.

  • Mick Fealty

    The press is fairly weak in all of this. Too much of what gets pumped is per processed by the parties. But I agree there’s a stopped clock aspect to all of this that’s just crying out for some epistemological re-engineering…

    It’s too easy for republicans (and unionists) to get trapped in this cycle permanently if they keep taking Constable Savage’s view that Winston Kodogo is a culprit for “wearing a loud shirt in a built up area”… (- Not the Nine O’Clock News) seriously…

  • lamhdearg2

    be honnest mick, you have been busting to use that.

  • Mick Fealty

    Caught on! Just been bragging about it to my missus… :-/

  • Mick Fealty

    Sub,

    That’s as maybe. And I agree in principle with much of what you say about the RBI and that breach last week. It’s no kind of platform from which to call others to order.

    But lest we conveniently forget, what about the ordinary civil lawbreaking of the Republican parade? It’s pretty well documented in HD…

  • John Ó Néill

    The Twitter machine is reporting trouble again at Carlisle Circus tonight (well, @CllrLeeReynolds is anyway).

  • Mainland Ulsterman

    Mick, perhaps don’t mention that one of Mr Kodogo’s other alleged offences was “possession of an offensive wife” 😉

  • Anton Graf von Arco Valley

    Trouble has broken out, third night in a row.

  • No-one really answered why the Orange Order provided the UVF with keys to their viewing platform…

  • Dunno, Gonzo. Maybe one of those on the “Viewing Platform” is a member and just asked to use the Hall for a social occasion (nudge, nudge, wink, wink).

  • Moderate Unionist

    BG,

    re. “provided the UVF with keys to their viewing platform…”

    Without naming names has anyone definitively confirmed that ALL of those on the balcony are linked to the UVF?

  • andnowwhat

    Och Moderate Unionist, this is where big Jim and his paper comes in to it’s own. I’m looking forward to this Sunday.

  • dwatch

    “Without naming names has anyone definitively confirmed that ALL of those on the balcony are linked to the UVF?”

    Don’t know them all, but I see 3 Bridadiers , one of them Salvation Army along with Captain Black and his brother.

  • Neil

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-19520668

    Looks like someone was breaking the law on the 12th. I suspect that would be the one interfering with the gentleman exercising his right to take pictures in public.

  • ArdoyneUnionist

    There is plenty of video evidence knocking about of events right up to last Sunday. Let’s see the PSNI take all the appropriate actions to investigate and bring all those who offended to court.

    I’m sure there are plenty now who won’t be sleeping to well over the next few weeks, waiting for the PSNI knocking on their door.

  • Nelson McCausland has broken his eight day silence on his blog but I am afraid I cannot tell you his views on recent local developments.

    Rather he has chosen to announce a guided tour of the Clifton Street Cemetery. This will take place starting tomorrow Saturday at 10.30am.There is no charge, anyone is welcome to join Nelson and friends and they will be assembling at the gate in Henry Place.

    Sounds good to me and I am happy to spread the message.

  • Moderate Unionist

    aricles,

    re. “a guided tour ” – I wonder is that code for a parade?

  • It’s an anagram for drudge riot.

  • lamhdearg2

    from utv web news,
    “Ardoyne Covenant parade withdrawn
    The withdrawal of an application to stage a feeder parade past the Ardoyne shops prior to an Ulster Covenant commemoration march has been welcomed by nationalist residents and politicians.”

    However, this gesture was greeted with barbed comments by S.F.s Conor maskey,including this little piece of outreach to the loyal orders.

    “It is difficult to understand the type of mindset that thought this was a good idea in the first place”.

    Can we please have a thread focusing on the upcoming covenant parade, rather than having one after the event, todays gesture by the loyal orders would make a decent starting point.

  • Very good guys but seriously this is a guided tour of an historic cemetery, I might pop along myself if I can, I’ll be in the background wearing a black fedora hat and a red carnation in my lapel.

  • Moderate Unionist

    “historic cemetery”

    The same one as last weeks carryon?

    lamhdearg2,

    I think the key thing on the parade is no music going past the St Pats – if the OO et al can do that then should be a quiet day.

  • dwatch

    “Nelson McCausland has broken his eight day silence on his blog but I am afraid I cannot tell you his views on recent local developments. Rather he has chosen to announce a guided tour of the Clifton Street Cemetery.”

    Maybe Gerry Kelly can announce he is giving a guided tour around Milltown or Friars Bush Cemetery the same day.

  • The Lodger

    “http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-19520668

    Looks like someone was breaking the law on the 12th. I suspect that would be the one interfering with the gentleman exercising his right to take pictures in public.”

    It looks like he wasn’t breaking the law after all.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-19520668

    A man arrested in connection with an incident outside St Patrick’s Catholic Church in Belfast on 12 July has been released without charge.

  • The Lodger

    “Rather he has chosen to announce a guided tour of the Clifton Street Cemetery. This will take place starting tomorrow Saturday at 10.30am.There is no charge, anyone is welcome to join Nelson and friends and they will be assembling at the gate in Henry Place.

    Sounds good to me and I am happy to spread the message.”

    Is there some sort of suggestion here that nationalists will prevent this guided tour from taking place?

  • Submariner

    It looks like he wasn’t breaking the law after all.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-19520668

    A man arrested in connection with an incident outside St Patrick’s Catholic Church in Belfast on 12 July has been released without charge.

    Alf according to UTV news he was released on Police bail pending further enquiries so I wouldn’t get all excited just yet.

  • Neil

    Is there some sort of suggestion here that nationalists will prevent this guided tour from taking place?

    Only in your feverish, paranoid imagination.

  • Calm seems to be breaking out, all over. Good thing too. Perhaps enough people have looked over the brink and thought “Nope, been there, done that”.

  • The Lodger

    “Alf according to UTV news he was released on Police bail pending further enquiries so I wouldn’t get all excited just yet.”

    Submariner,

    I suspect that you were slightly more excited by that arrest than I am.

  • The Lodger

    “Only in your feverish, paranoid imagination.”

    Then why would a nationalist poster be interested in being ‘happy to spread the message’ about a DUP led tour of a grave yard?

  • Lodger,

    I don’t think there are any followers of any religion or sect lying in the ground.

  • Lodger,

    I’ll offer you a deal.
    If there is trouble inside the graveyard, I’ll put 10 pounds in Slugger’s Tip Jar.
    If there isn’t trouble, You put 10 pounds in.
    Mick, if he agrees, will be the arbiter of whether or not there was trouble.
    Agree?

  • Submariner

    Alf what can I say I hope the PSNI hunt down every last one of the law breakers involved on both sides from the 12th until the riots earlier this week and bring them before the courts,though I am disappointed that the courts have seen fit to release some of those suspected of rioting on bail. They should all be remanded in custody and if convicted get the maximum term in prison. Also the fact that someone is released from Police custody without charge does not mean as you seem to think that they have not broken the law.

  • Neil

    A couple of things. I don’t know if Articles is a Nationalist, I’ll defer to you on that as you may keep a notebook. Possibly he was being sarcastic, or possibly he’s actually the whole PIRA Army Council in disguise and he’s gonna call on all prior volunteers unleash hell and ensure this tour does not take place. Or maybe he’s taking the piss (like I am, just now). I’ll leave it to you to reason out which one is the most likely scenario.

  • The Lodger

    Mr Joe,

    I haven’t said there would be trouble. I merely questioned why a nationalist would be expressing so much interest in a DUP led tour of a graveyard. Perhaps Articles and his mates are genuinely interested in following the tour?

  • The Lodger

    Submariner,

    I largely agree with you and I wish you luck with your continuing monitoring of the news websites to see what happens to the gentleman in question.

  • The Lodger

    ‘he’s gonna call on all prior volunteers’

    Would that be a Da Vinci Code type outfit?

  • Lodger,

    I’m inclined, myself, to take people at face value, until proven otherwise.
    If I knew Articles name, I would offer to put 20 pounds in the tip jar if he was arrested anywhere within the general vicinity and convicted of a public order offence, on Saturday.

  • andnowwhat

    I think we should have a business in foam bricks and
    sugar glass beer bottles so we can have harmless riots. Anyone want to invest?

  • The Lodger

    “I’m inclined, myself, to take people at face value, until proven otherwise.”

    Mr Joe,

    As indeed am I.

  • Moderate Unionist

    This is the Henry Joy graveyard? He has allegedly been spinning in his grave due to recent activities.

    Quite contentious in that it is of interest to both ‘sides’, we surely wont need a graveyard commssion to ensure no funny stuff from ussuns or themmuns.

    Have the ‘other’ side got anybody as good as we have in there – HJ was one hell of a boy, a real republican hero – presuambly the boy Nelse will give him a good report?

  • The Lodger

    Henry Joy has no connection whatsoever with the rabble who marched in his name last Sunday.

  • Due to the effects of friction, I am sad to report that Henry Joy no longer resides there; he is half way to the Antipodes.

  • The Lodger

    Mr Joe,

    Those Protestant republicans would very quickly have been decorating trees if they had succeeded in driving the British out. The Irish sans culottes had no interest in doing away with the Catholic church.

  • Lodger,

    Don’t agree with your first sentence. The second sentence is arguable. The French sans culottes certainly hated the church “princes”, and had every reason to do so, but there wasn’t any fervour to drive Protestants out such as happened with the Huguenots in earlier centuries.

  • Since we are off-topic, I’ll accept your reply without further comment. Another time perhaps.
    Cheers.

  • Moderate Unionist

    I think it fair to call Nelse a religious bigot as he failed the Beach boys test so ,miserably so I wonder how he copes with co-religionists who opposed his ideological views.

    Perhaps he views them as crypto-themmuns or in Potterspeak a sort of mudblood – it sounds like an interesting event as the boul HJs grave will probably have the full tricolour treatment.

  • The Lodger

    Mr Joe,

    The Protestant republican’s problems would have begun as soon as they made their move against the RC church, which they fully intended to do. Then it would have been tree decoration time.

  • The Lodger

    ” it sounds like an interesting event as the boul HJs grave will probably have the full tricolour treatment.”

    That would certainly be consistent with moronic Irish republican behaviour given that HJ would be baffled by the Tricolour.

  • I’m seriously thinking about joining Nelsons tour, and I can assure you I know my stuff historically on Henry Joy. Would Mick let me do a live blogcast thingy on it ?

  • My apologies all round, to Mr McCausland, to Mr Fealty and other long standing Sluggerites, for drawing attention to a guided tour and it seems prompting some mischievous comments. The intention was to draw attention to the fact that Mr McCausland had broken his purdah only to speak of the tour and not recent troubles; having said that a free guided historic tour is in itself worth noting and I did so. I am wholly in favour of anything which educates, informs and entertains , and having been on similar tours, I am sure this tour will do exactly the same. There was no ulterior motive.

  • Neil

    For Christ’s sake don’t produce a video camera in front of Nelson’s muckers, camera shy bunch by all accounts.

  • Bangordub,

    I doubt you’ll get an answer here. Send Mick an email, if you haven’t already done so. I would certainly watch it.

  • The Lodger

    Articles,

    I apologise for misunderstanding your earlier post.

  • Moderate Unionist

    Articles,

    who else apart from HJ is in the graveyard – any ideas?

    Possibly some done to death by Queen Mary?

  • As I said earlier, Calm is breaking out all over. I am agreeing with The Lodger, and he is apologising to Articles. Better times coming?

  • Joe,
    Don’t I know it ! Leave it to me, I can do a passable Belfast accent when required, Neil is quite right, I’ll be discreet with the aul camera.
    The trick on these occasions is to be polite and discreet until the mask slips, as it will, and the go for the intellectual jugular.
    Can’t wait

  • Moderate Unionist

    “That would certainly be consistent with moronic Irish republican behaviour given that HJ would be baffled by the Tricolour.”

    I think he would be in favour of a symbol promoting peace between our two tribes and the unity of our country – that after all was the ethos of the organisation he belonged to.

  • Moderate Unionist.
    Exactly! I cannot get my head around the religious obsession

  • Moderate Unionist

    BangorDub,

    As you have been observing elsewhere regarding the impending release of the Census stats – I’m sure the boul HJ would have approved of the growing Nat majority in his native Belfast – irresepctive of their religion.

    Just wonder how Nelse will deal with HJ – I find him(Nelse) an intriguing (if bigoted) chppie – whatever he says I’m sure it will be interesting.

  • Moderate Unionist

    BangorDub,

    According to wiki there are 4 United Irishmen in there and one British Army grave (death in 1920) – perhaps during war of independence. On the surface doesnt seem the likelyiest spot for the boul Nelse – intriguing.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clifton_Street_Cemetery

  • Moderate Unionist,
    Well observed. I would argue that HJ wouldn’t give two figs what religious observance habits the locals had as you say. It’s not the point as is illustrated by the history of his organisation. What interests me is how history is distorted, not just by the two extremes but by the Governments and centralist revisionists to drive their own agendas.

  • Nelson will spin the story, and I have no problem with that. I am curious as to how he will do that

  • The Lodger

    I would argue that HJ wouldn’t give two figs what religious observance habits the locals had as you say. It’s not the point as is illustrated by the history of his organisation.

    If he was in tune with er, Tone then his intention was to squash the Roman catholic church just as the French revolutionaries had done. That would have resulted in him coming into direct conflict with the Defenders who were drawn from the majority RC population (equivalents of the modern day Provos with a strongly Gerry McGeough type influence) and who would have given him (and the others) a fairly gruesome death before finishing off their 1641 mission.

    That is reality.

  • Moderate Unionist

    BD,

    “What interests me is how history is distorted, not just by the two extremes but by the Governments and centralist revisionists to drive their own agendas.”

    Yes the whole radical presbyterian thing is really interesting especially when you throw in the Yankee angle – there are uncomfortable truths in there for both sides.

    I think we all try to shoehorn history into our own ideology – but especially so in Northen Ireland, largley because of the inbuilt instability brought about by patition – history is still extremely relevant.

    re. “Nelson will spin the story, and I have no problem with that. I am curious as to how he will do that”

    Why pick there?

    Major William Basil Ewart – is buried there – he may be an important Unionist figure? He sounds familiar.

  • Moderate Unionist

    Lodger,

    as per the comment above – ‘I think we all try to shoehorn history into our own ideology’ – and I wrote that before seeing what you had written above.

  • Lodger,
    The whole history of Ireland, where British governments are involved, revolve around the misuse of religious beliefs to manipulate political allegiences. Where the people who actually live here of whatever persuasion are concerned, we have all ineveitably suffered because of this. We still are. That is reality.
    MU, Is Major Ewart a relation of the ex British ambassador?

  • The Lodger

    When I come up against nationalist doubters on this subject, especially extreme ones, I always defer to Eamonn McCann.

    By Eamonn McCann
    Thursday, 7 December 2006

    I gather that one of the blessings which will befall us if the Assembly is restored will be a visit from the Pope. I wonder, is there anybody around who will speak to him after the manner of Wolfe Tone?

    Ian Paisley won’t. Nor Gerry Adams. That much is obvious from exchanges at Stormont on Monday.

    Mr Adams had, reasonably, used the DUP crisis meeting at Templepatrick the previous Friday as a peg on which to hang mention of the Presbyterians who had rallied there for revolution in 1798. Naming six of the prominent Presbyterians involved, he commended their view, “That the weight of the English influence in the government of this country is so great as to require a cordial union among the people of Ireland to maintain that balance which is essential to the preservation of our liberties and the extension of our commerce”.

    The Rev Ian would have none of it. Adams’s version was ‘republican propaganda history,’ he insisted. “The Presbyterian Synod – the Synod of Ulster – was totally opposed to the rebellion.” McCracken, Hope, Munro, Robb, Kelburn and Dickson were not Presbyterians at all, but ” Arians or Unitarians.”

    Some might consider it a mite presumptuous even of the elder Paisley retrospectively to expel the Templepatrick Six, including two ministers, from the communion of Presbyterianism. And he might have mentioned that, whatever about the Synod of Ulster, which was split on the matter, the Presbytery of Antrim, which covered Templepatrick, was on the Unitarian, and the United Irish, side.

    But then, the history of the period tends not to bear out the position of either Mr Adams or Dr Paisley as indicated at Stormont.

    Although the Ulster leadership of the United Irishmen was largely Presbyterian, and its support for republicanism reflected the dissident nature of Presbyterianism itself, the organisation was not definitively or exclusively so. Its chief theorist and ideologue, Theobald Wolfe Tone, came from a Church of Ireland background. Tone believed in a God, but was by no means devout and in adulthood associated himself with no denomination. The relevant point here is that none of the Templepatrick Six would have dissented from his attitude to the Papacy.

    The notion that the United Irishmen were Protestant ecumenists of a sort, arguing for respect for Catholicism and the creation of a tolerant society in which “both communities” would live in genial amity is attractive, particularly to nationalists, including modern republicans, anxious to suggest a non-sectarian heritage. But it’s far from the facts.

    As Marianne Elliot noted in her biography, Tone saw the Pope as “the incarnation of evil”. In this, he was in line with the Enlightened thinking of the day. Had he succeeded in his revolutionary enterprise, he would have cleansed the influence of the Catholic Church from the face of the Republic he had hoped to create.

    Indeed, one of the chief reasons Tone and the United Irishmen wanted to end the oppression of Catholics was that they believed that, freed, the Catholics would slough off their religion. In his splendid Argument On Behalf Of The Catholics Of Ireland, written for the Dublin-based Catholic Committee in 1791, Tone put it plain: “Persecution will keep alive the foolish bigotry and superstition of any sect…Persecution bound the Irish Catholic to his priest and the priest to the Pope; the bond of union is drawn tighter by oppression; relaxation will undo it.”

    What would the response be today were an MLA publicly to describe Catholic teaching and ritual as “foolish bigotry and superstition?”

    Or to characterise the Mass, as Tone did, as “abominable nonsense”?

    Tone angrily rejected suggestions from the French Directory that he take two priests with him when he sailed to Ireland to foment revolution. “I will not have priests involved in the enterprise,” he responded.

    Compare and contrast the first Sinn Fein ard fheis after 1916, when 10% of the delegates were priests, one of whom was elected by acclamation as vice-president.

    Tone and the United Irish leaders believed they were living in the last days of Catholic power in the world. They referred frequently and excitedly to the fact that it had been Catholics, or ex-Catholics, who had accomplished the French Revolution. Why should Irish Catholics, roused to liberate themselves, be any different?

    When French forces drove the Pope from Rome in February 1798, Tone exultantly welcomed what he saw as the beginning of the end of Catholic influence in Europe. He regretted that Bonaparte had let the Pope live: ” It was unwise to let slip so favourable an opportunity to destroy forever the Papal tyranny.”

    However, he consoled himself, at least the Pope had been deposed, and the Roman people had “declared themselves free and independent…Thus terminated the temporal reign of the Popes after an existence of above 1,000 years.” A bit premature, as things turned out. But there’s no mistaking his attitude, which in all essentials was the attitude of the Templepatrick Six.

    Wolfe Tone’s attitude to the Pope was closer to that of Ian Paisley circa 1969 than to the mellow musings of the Rev Ian on Monday.

    It bears no resemblance of any kind to the attitude of Mr Adams.

    Anybody for a Wolfe Tone Commemoration Committee to give Benedict a proper republican welcome at Aldergrove?

    Read more: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/columnists/eamon-mccann/what-wolfe-tone-and-the-ian-paisley-of-69-have-in-common-13576729.html#ixzz25pS69vRB

  • The Lodger

    “The whole history of Ireland, where British governments are involved, revolve around the misuse of religious beliefs to manipulate political allegiences.”

    Arguably it revolves around the determination of the RC church to prevent Irish people from adopting the reformed faith. Had they done so then they would probably be proud Britons today. Instead they stuck with a faith which encouraged division and ultimately was covering up the clerical abuse of their children.

  • Lodger,
    And what is wrong with that?

  • Moderate Unionist

    Lodger,

    Calm down , calm down

    BD,

    I found this (see below) – it seems he is not that important. I presume Nelse is not going to spend his time dissing the good guys (and gal) of the UI?

    https://sites.google.com/site/ourheroesinmemoriam/carnmoney-main-cemetery/clifton-street-cemetery

  • Lodger,
    “rguably it revolves around the determination of the RC church to prevent Irish people from adopting the reformed faith. Had they done so then they would probably be proud Britons today. Instead they stuck with a faith which encouraged division and ultimately was covering up the clerical abuse of their children”

    Are you completely mad? with respect.
    Have you read a page of your own history?
    That is the most incredible reading of Irish History ever, bar none, would you like me to take that apart line by line?

  • The Lodger

    “And what is wrong with that?”

    With what?

  • Moderate Unionist
    Thanks, that is interesting! Lodger had me going there 🙂
    Perhaps Nelson would come down to my Dads Cemetary in Dublin, Mount Jerome. His “neighbours” include an IRA man and a member of the Connaught Rangers

  • The Lodger

    “That is the most incredible reading of Irish History ever, bar none, would you like me to take that apart line by line?”

    Please feel free to try.

  • Lodger,
    I meant Wolf Tones views on the church
    I agree

  • Moderate Unionist

    Lodger,

    Leave aside your obsession with the evils of Catholicism for minute – what is Nelsons interest in Clifton cemetry – any ideas?

    Ussuns seem to have all the big names.

  • Lodger,
    If your entire critique of catholicism in Ireland is reduced to the child abuse argument, you have no argument. Everyone agrees with you.
    Now when would you like me to start on the history? give me a year. 1690 perhaps?

  • Moderate Unionist

    This cemetry thing is intriguing – a week after Prods try to stop Fenians going into a cemetry to pay homage to a Prod who was a Fenian, another Prod (Nelse) is going into the same cemetry to discuss the residents including presumably the 4 Fenian* Prods.

    *generic term for Irish insurgent.

  • Moderate Unionist
    In fairness, it will be interesting to hear Nelsons take on the inhabitants of the cemetary, I’m willing to give him a fair hearing

  • Moderate Unionist

    BD,

    Really interesting and Nelse is no dozer.

    It is one hell of a coincidence that he should be turning up there a week after the malarkey last week – I dont mean that in a sinister way – just a hell of a coincidence.

    I thought it might be worth popping in the next ime I’m round there – but it is only open on request/tours.

  • If I may add, the term fenian is one I view as a compliment.
    It refers to the Fianna, or soldiers of the Tuatha Dé Danann.

  • Nelson has obviously been told to wind his neck in by the party, hence his sudden concentration on cemetaries. great fun

  • Reader

    Bangordub: If I may add, the term fenian is one I view as a compliment. It refers to the Fianna, or soldiers of the Tuatha Dé Danann.
    No sympathy for the Fir Bolg, then?

  • dwatch

    How many Unionists know the first British Submarines 5 in all were called “HOLLAND BOATS” named after the John Philip Holland who invented the Fenian Ram. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fenian_Ram

    Holland was a Fenian born in Ireland. His submarine design was eventually bought by the US government who eventually sold the design to GB and other European countries around 1900 : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Philip_Holland

    Today one of his original submarines is on display in the Submarine Museum Gosport Hants

  • Moderate Unionist

    dwatch,

    “How many Unionists know the first British Submarines 5 in all were called “HOLLAND BOATS” named after the John Philip Holland who invented the Fenian Ram. ”

    As a Moderate Unionist(cough), count me in with those that didn’t know. Spiffing tale of derring-do an ingenuity.

  • This unaligned geezer knew about his work developing submarines (saw a documentary) but didn’t know about his Irish background or the British Holland Class of boats.

  • Moderate Unionist

    Mister_Joe,

    as the old joke about the Jew goes – are you a Prod ‘unaligned geezer’ or a Fenian one?

  • Religiously unaligned too. Don’t believe in “God” but am a spiritual person believing that all living things share a connectedness. Religion I most admire, in that most people following it generally behave as their religion requires, is Islam.

  • lamhdearg2

    Religiously unaligned. Do believe in “God, Religion I most admire, in that most people following it generally behave as their religion requires, is Islam.

  • lamhdearg,

    Don’t follow. Is that your “profile”?

  • lamhdearg2

    yes joe. well part of it (my profile)

  • The Lodger

    “Now when would you like me to start on the history? give me a year. 1690 perhaps?”

    You could start with 1641 if you like.

  • Dont Drink Bleach

    How can people claim these men are UVF when no-one seems to know their names or anything else about them?

    Is it the leather jackets??

  • Alias

    It’s very scientific. You simply take one look at the rabble and then ask yourself are they more likely to say “We are protecting the five solas of the Reformers” or “We are protecting your chip shop from arson.”

  • lamhdearg2

    Alias, so the folk in their gaze (camera’s eye) must be Ira to a man (and woman), that off course excludes those who could not string a sentance together

  • lamhdearg2

    sentence, of course

  • andnowwhat

    I always thought it was loyalists who had problem with sentences?

    They always seemed to find God before they had served them 🙂