Why Edwin’s Orange must practise what they preach

 

Edwin Poots’ guest blog on Slugger has provided a welcome opportunity to expose the absurdity of unionism’s position on contentious loyalist parades, helpfully highlighted by the  recent comments of one time anticipated Loyal Order Luca Brasi and now simply UDA leader, Jackie McDonald (more on that later.)

 
It also illustrates the fallacy of unionism’s albeit cynical outreach initiative to the catholic community which I have already highlighted in earlier threads on said topic.
 
Let’s start with the DUP Health Minister’s barely credible claim that nationalism’s failure to wholly embrace loyalist parades in catholic communities means that unionists would not be welcome in a united Ireland.
 
This raises all sorts of fascinating challenges for Edwin’s own Protestant /unionist community which poor Edwin clearly has not thought through.
 
Firstly, if this is the measure of how to judge acquiescence in a constitutional framework, then logically it would follow that Edwin and the DUP would support the holding of republican parades in overwhelmingly loyalist towns along with the erection of republican flags, arches etc. in said areas all in the name of proving unionism’s willingness to embrace Irish republican culture in a UK constitutional framework. I haven’t heard of that happening yet…
 
Secondly, the ability to hold a parade in Rossnowlagh should bear no relation to the willingness or otherwise of nationalist communities in the Six Counties to host such parades. Indeed, it is akin to saying that because major English cities have hosted Irish republican demonstrations and parades throughout the past 30 years then republicans should be entitled to demand that the Protestant / unionist communities of Carrickfergus, Larne and the Shankill Road host republican parades through their communities. Given the differing communal experiences of people in rural Donegal, Liverpool and the republican and loyalist communities of the North of Ireland, it is reasonable to assume that the latter would have greatest reason to oppose being forced to host such parades.
 
Let’s return to Edwin’s MOPEish rant regarding the opposition of Crumlin’s overwhelmingly nationalist populace to the arrival of some 5,000 loyalists to their town this Thursday.
 
Crumlin’s nationalist majority, as noted by the Parades Commission in its determination, stand out in a northern Irish context for their willingness to tolerate expressions of the minority unionist culture in a manner which is simply not reciprocated by any Protestant/ unionist community across the northern state at present.
 
Every year, numerous loyalist parades are held in Crumlin and an Orange Arch is erected with multiple loyalist flags hanging from every angle on it. The Orange Hall also flies a loyalist flag every day of the year (the Union Flag has been replaced by some Royalist banner in recent times…)
 
The last time loyalists attempted to ratchet up sectarian tensions in the village was when they sought to hold a massive parade through the town in 2006. The widespread opposition to that parade from all sections of the community led to it being so severely restricted by the Parades Commisuon that the loyalists simply gave up on it, much to the relief of locals.
 
Then, as now, the loyalists involved deliberately sought to increase tensions and antagonise their catholic/ nationalist neighbours by inviting to the contentious parade the controversial Pride Of The Village flute band from Stoneyford which has a very long and unsavoury record of being involved in organising parades clearly aimed at intimidating and harassing the minority catholic population of Stoneyford- with considerable effect.
 
Indeed, the contrast between how the catholic minority of Stoneyford and the protestant minority communities of the neighbouring villages of  Crumlin and Glenavy are treated could not be more pronounced.
 
Stoneyford’s loyalists have for more than a decade led a campaign to intimidate Catholics from the village, leading to the closure of the village’s only pub and fleeing from the village of dozens of catholic families. Loyalists ensure that flags fly throughout the village all year round and have led marches into mixed housing communities with the sole purpose of intimidating local Catholics- something recognised by the Parades Commission but, shamefully, long ignored and excused by unionist politicians.
 
In contrast, nationalists in neither majority nationalist village of Crumlin nor Glenavy have sought to intimidate the minority Protestant communities by erecting flags throughout the villages nor by seeking to hold provocative marches aimed at harassing local Protestants. Indeed it remains the case that the only flags to be seen in either village throughout the year are those associated with the minority unionist tradition, a remarkable measure of the tolerance of the majority community in both villages.
 
And yet it would appear that unionism- through its political leaders and perpetually reckless and unaccountable Loyal Orders- are intent on provoking a response from the majority community which could damage community relations for years to come.
 

Crumlin is a part of Antrim Borough Council, a place where a UUP councillor recently boasted that he did not care if it was undemocratic or not, he simply would never support power-sharing with Sinn Fein. Antrim was also the location in which a unionist councillor excused the erection of loyalist flags outside a catholic church by claiming “it was all British,” even the bits outside the chapel. 

 
The supremacist mentality pervading through the mainstream unionist narrative remains a significant obstacle to the onset of long term political stability in our governing institutions. It can be seen in the obdurate refusal to support power-sharing as a matter of practice in majority unionist local government councils as well as in the failure to resolutely stand against loyalist bully boys when they erect flags outside catholic churches and in mixed communities.
 
But it is most evident in the utter failure of any strand of mainstream political unionism to separate from the nakedly sectarian agendas pursued annually by the Loyal Orders and the associated loyalist bands. In this vein, how fitting to see DUP MP Nigel Dodds suggest loyalist violence would follow the Ardoyne parade whilst standing beside, ahem, “leading loyalist” spokesman Winston Irvine. So much for that north Belfast initiative aimed at targeting potential catholic DUP voters outlined on this very site by a senior DUP strategist…..
 
The parading dispute boils down to unionism demanding what it would not countenance reciprocating- ie hosting very public expressions of the political/cultural identity of ‘the other.’ Attempting to cling to a victimhood status as a result of nationalist resistance to such parades may be consistent with the albeit dubious Orange narrative of significant events in Irish history but it does little to bring unionism and the Loyal Orders anywhere closer to a realisation of the changing order of a post-Agreements Northern Ireland.
 
It is long since past time that journalists challenged unionist political leaders as to whether or not they would publicly support and seek to facilitate republican parades in majority unionist communities in precisely the same manner they ask of their nationalist neighbours.
 
And it is not simply the media which needs to up its game in this regard.
 
Mick has noted Henry Patterson’s recent speech to an assembled gathering of Young Unionists. Whilst the inference that unionism has a monopoly on intellectual discourse can be quickly dismissed as a nonsense, nevertheless Patterson is actually onto something when noting the negative consequences in terms of discouragement of innovation and independent and critical  political thought of the rigidly centralised political structure that characterises northern Sinn Fein.
 
This has hampered republican performance at Stormont  and elsewhere in recent years and, with regard to parading,  Sinn Fein’s stubborn refusal to shift from the somewhat meaningless mantra of encouraging dialogue to end parading disputes is born out of a failure to evolve the party’s approach to the matter in a manner consistent with the equality agenda being separately pursued by the party in other spheres. This has led to the party allowing itself to be outmanoeuvred by the Loyal Orders and dissident groups in Ardoyne whilst meaning it has failed to decisively challenge the Loyal Orders to prove a willingness to embrace an equality of pain in terms of hosting expressions of the other as the price for making such requests of nationalism. 
 
For Edwin Poots, that would mean demonstrating his willingness to support not only a republican parade through Lisburn town centre but also the accompanying erection of republican flags along any proposed route.
 
The challenge has the distinct advantage of asking unionism’s political leaders to demonstrate a willingness to embrace a future premised on equality and mutual respect or acknowledge the limitations of what can and should be asked of both communities as we progress as a society.
 
Finally, it is somewhat fittingly ironic that the most enlightened unionist voice on the vexed parading issue has been the aforementioned UDA Leader, Jackie McDonald. In today’s Belfast Telegraph, McDonald calls for an end to return parades from the Fields, noting the intra-loyalist tensions that predominate at such gatherings as well as the interface clashes that could so easily be avoided were the Orange Order to decide to follow such a course of action.
 
  • lamhdearg2

    Thats to long, and drawn out, 2 out of ten.

  • ranger1640

    Goodness man, the Unionists and the Loyal Orders do seem to have got under your skin Chris.

    I’m glad you got that off your chest. I bet you feel better.

    I have not read the hole thing but I do detract that you are moving more to the GARC position.

    I know a rational guy like you Chris, and the sane among us will not support the report on UTV news, that GARC, want to move their protest march to the same time as the Orange Order returning home. Sweet.

  • Chris. Expecting local broadcast or print media in NI to challehnge unionist politicians on anything, as seen by |Ken reid’;s description of Ian Paisley as a ‘political giant’ when his career is littered with obstruction to peace. They are just too pally with politicians here for any objective journalism to occur.

  • lamhdearg2

    They are just too pally with politicians here for any objective journalism to occur.
    aint that the truth.

  • ranger1640

    danielsmoran,

    I as a member of the Protestant, Unionist, Loyalist community would rejoice if we had objective journalism.

  • chewnicked

    Absolutely spot on in nailing the supine local media’s abject failure to address Orange triumphalism dressed up as its usual MOPEry.
    The stormach-churning incitements of the DSD minister on the issue also neatly underlines Brian Feeney’s point that MLAs aren’t real politicians.
    God help us all if people like McCausland actually held real power over housing allocations etc.

  • Drumlins Rock

    is it my computer or the article? the line spacing is up the left, cant read it without getting a sore head.

  • lamhdearg2

    me two, i gave up

  • lamhdearg2

    sore head!, par for the course with Chris’s posts. only joking Chris.

  • ranger1640

    chewnicked,

    triumphalism/triumphalist: The attitude or belief that a particular doctrine, especially a religion or political theory, is superior to all others.

    Would $inn £ein, fall into the category of a triumphalist political party? What about the pious omnipotent one, non other than the blessed Barron Gerry Adams, could he be categorised as triumphalist? He always displays the triumphalist attributes?

  • Chris,
    Very interesting post. something wrong with the line spacing alright but I took the time to read it.

  • andnowwhat

    Robo has stuck his oar in but what has Marty to say or is the continuing sell-out making it too expensive to the 26 county campaign? The shiners constant arse licking is totally nout of whack with the DUP’s support for everything loyalist from trimphalist marches to the UVF.

    Loyalists and unionists are doing exactly what I expect of them, Sinn Fein are not.

  • lover not a fighter

    Surely both sides need an invisibility cloak. Then one crowd could march to their hearts content and the other crowd could complain that they could not see them to be offended by them.

    Too much time on everyone hands. One crowd with too much time for marching and the other crowd with enough time to be offended.

    Jeez they have something in common: Good time management skills !

  • ranger1640

    andnowwhat,

    are the shinners not triumphalist enough for you????

  • the future’s bright, the future’s orange

    Chris probably has a point in there somewhere but he’s become so one-eyed I can’t be bothered reading it really.

    Shame.

  • andnowwhat

    Ranger

    Please don’t judge other’s values by your own. It’s a long time fault of loyalists and many unionists

  • ranger1640

    Andnowwhat,

    So $inn £ein and the pious omnipotent one, the blessed Barron Gerry Adams are not triumphalist. Just MOPE’s?

  • SK

    Do we all feel better after that flurry of man-playing?

  • andnowwhat

    Well SK, it was great for Ranger to kindly encompass the mentality we are up against.

    Right now, I feel more supreme than Diana Ross

  • Mac

    I’m not sure why you bother Chris, by now it should be obvious that on a good day you’ll get whatabout and the rest of the time you’ll just get abuse.

  • ThomasMourne

    Simple solution to contentious parades:
    Hold a ballot among local voters in the affected street or area – democratic, open and fair.
    The result would stand for, say, 3 years.
    In the meantime, any organisation wishing to parade or object would have to finance a new ballot.
    Added bonus – Parades Commission redundant.

  • SK

    People are openly admitting that they didn’t even read the post before proceeding to get personal. These same people will turn around some other day and complain that republicans never listen to them or their community, a cold house for Protestants, waah, waah, waah.

    A fascinating species.

  • PeterBrown

    I have read the post and correct me if I am wrong but the main thrust of the argument is that the situation in Crumlin has changed and ignoring the issue of whether there is a direct correlation between religion or politics and perceived or actual objection to the parade and whether the level of opposition to the parade in Crumlin or anywhere esle can actually be measured (only Brendan McKenna was ever elected from a residents group) and with a certain amount of tongue in cheek….

    Are we seriously suggesting that if an as yet unspecified number of PULs acquire property overlooking the City Cemetery in either Belfast or the Maiden City, Bodenstown, Connolly House or The Square in Crossmaglen (is one PUL enough and if not how may are required?) in the full knowledge that these areas are the scene of traditional republican commemorations are they then entitled to veto those events on the basis of demographic change?

  • andnowwhat

    Peter Brown

    As I read it, the Catholic majority do not have an issue with the traditional parade but the way it has become overblown amd in the context of the well known violence and intimidation visited upon Catholics in the area.

    What more need be said about a perspective on opportunistic behaviour by unionists than the rejection of a DUP man’s plan to have a very large bad parade by the relatives of the Masserene victims?

  • PeterBrown

    Andnowwhat

    Partly true but this is a regular occurence (if once every 14 years can be said to be a regular occurence) not a one off like the Masserene parade and with a small number of notable exceptions who in my opinion as a member should be excluded by the Order from all such parades is a quiet rural Twelfth just larger in scale than the totally non offensive event I will be participating in on Thursday 20 miles away in Portglenone which will be watched by all sides as a spectacel and to which I am happy to take my young children and would be happy to invite catholic or nationalists. As is the Drumcree parade – let’s be honest it’s not about the participants its about the principle?

  • andnowwhat

    Peter Brown

    My point is how those from Britain see the orders. Look at how they laughed at their bigoted rules on the BBC’s QI, Anne Warren’s comments, how the Scottish executive is clamping down on them (look at the policing involved here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2aFgN_t6qE ) or their attempt to dictate to the British government and royal family on who they can marry.

  • PeterBrown

    Hmm that’s a complete different point to your first one and still doesn’t answer mine……

  • galloglaigh

    It’s interesting that not one comment deals with the big elephant in the room: Equality!

    I’ve often thought that, as I pointed out last night, if ye can’t beat them join them. Nationalist residents in contentious routes should organise their own parades with, as Chris says, tricolours on every lamp-post; green white and orange kerbs along the route etc. etc. They should hold them an hour after the loyalist parade. Surely if these roads are shared spaces, then republicans can share the spoils! I can imagine it now: La Twelfff in Belfast city centre; Union flags and tricolours everywhere. That would be a true shared society…

    But of course that won’t happen. I remember Cllr. Gary Middleton on Radio Foyle recently. He was opposed to Euro2012 tricolours flying from a market stall in Guildhall square. He claimed it was a shared space!

    When a caller asked him if the Apprentice Boy’s should consider not flying the Union flag in the Diamond, another shared space, the ‘we’re the victim’ and ‘it’s our culture’ mentality came to the fore. Kinda pathetic, and I’m sure I’m not the only listener to have nearly pished meself!

    Unionism can’t share, but expects others to share. Nationalist and republican residents in contentious routes should now get together, and prove what we already know… The spoilt child of the Union cany share his dolly!

    As the Bible say, do on to others and all that!

  • Ranger. That may be so, but your political leaders prefer it just the way it is so don’t hold your breath. We’re still waiting for democracy to be practised in this colony after 90 years. It will never happen nopw as the clock is ticking on it’s end.

  • chewnicked. I blame the shinners for letting the DUP anywhere near power as they are swanning around Stormont but are barely adequate councillors, but with a bit of house training, they could manage to run the refuse depts.

  • lamhdearg2

    Some class bonfires being built around Ulster this year (again). there is a group of lads building one close to my place at the moment, its a work of art, almost a pity to burn it. god I love the 12th.

  • galloglaigh

    lamh

    If you don’t burn it, how will King Billy find your house, come down your chimney, and give the kids Ulster?

  • Comrade Stalin

    Peter:

    Partly true but this is a regular occurence (if once every 14 years can be said to be a regular occurence)

    The weird thing about this “once every 14 years” thing (which is a lie) is that Orangemen keep defending their parades on the basis that they are “traditional”. Something that happened 7 times over the past 100 years is not “traditional”.

  • Mark

    PeterBrown ,

    Re your post ….. participants or principle .

    IMO I would say both . The behaviour of the participants down the years leaves a lot to be desired . From the five fingered gesture passing Sean Grahams bookies to the playing of the sash outside churches , the fact that some people leave the North during july for fear of the threat of violence , the violence itself etc etc …..

    As for the principle , We’ve already heard views from your fellow countrymen accross the water . Ask yourself honestly what kind of reputation the OO has throughout the world . Mr Poots touches on the KKK comparison and calls it idiototic and he’s probably right … however why do you think the likes of CNN used the phrase in the first place ?

  • Submariner

    Lamhderg no doubt tommorrow night you will have a good view of the respect your community has for their nationalist neighbours symbols and flag. Yet you will demand that orange “culture” is respected.

  • lamhdearg2

    I got my little girl her a new outfit for friday. I hope the weather picks up however, she loves the bands, rain won’t dampen her spirits to much, should be a good day out.

  • Mark

    Swedish House Mafia or One direction ?

  • lamhdearg2

    anyone going to tobermore?.

  • lamhdearg2

    The county Londonderry parade always has lots of silver/brass bands, the children love them.

  • Comrade Stalin

    I hope you do have a good day out lamhdearg and that the sun stays out.

    If you’re trying to piss people off with this flippant attitude, though, it’s probably working. There are serious problems here.

  • PeterBrown

    Comrade Stalin

    You could be right but how is the once every 14 years thing a lie?

  • ranger1640

    Lambdearg,

    I’m going to the Lisburn road on Thursday then Scarva on Friday, great days out. Guess who wins the sham fight on Friday. Crap that’s triumphant.

    As the song says from the aptly named band Orange Juice, “rip it up and start again”. That is what republicans want us to do rip it up and start history again from 1690 to the present.

  • lamhdearg2

    cs, the serious problems will probaly effect me more than most on here, I will have family walking down (and up?) the crumlin road come thursday, and no I am not trying to piss people of, I am trying to show that the 12th is about having a good day.

  • lamhdearg2

    Lisburn road, young mans game. (wife wont let me)
    Enjoy.

  • PeterBrown

    Mark

    Participants- the actions of a handful should not be used to overshadow the acceptable behaviour odf the remaining the tens of thousands – you have cited one incident, I’ll contribute another which was the disgraceful scenes of men in collarettes attacking police at Whiterock but the same argument could and should not be applied to lots of other organisations here – the vast majority of participants are well behaved and the argument falls down there.

    Principle – the Order has nothing in common with the KKK and has to date lost the PR batlle because it doesn’t have the resources of its opponents and is not prepared to sink to their level and tell lies like them but how does the loss of a PR battle justify the opposition to its parades?

    And is anyone going to even attempt to tackle my hypothetical scenario?

  • lamhdearg2

    Chris, thanks for sorting out the spacing, I can read it now.
    when Garc walk their parade on thursday they will pass house’s that have living in them people that do not share their views, when irish nat parade from north belfast to the city center they pass the bottom of the shankill, If the garc types where told to knock it on the head and the ardoyne parade passed in peace these parades would not be a problem, stop the attacks.

  • galloglaigh

    And is anyone going to even attempt to tackle my hypothetical scenario?

    What about Chris’ hypothetical scenario of republican parades along similar routes as contentious loyalist parades? Would the loyal Sluggerites:

    …support the holding of republican parades in overwhelmingly loyalist towns along with the erection of republican flags, arches etc. in said areas all in the name of proving unionism’s willingness to embrace Irish republican culture in a UK constitutional framework. I haven’t heard of that happening yet…?

    Would anyone like to tackle that? Ranger et. al. would you agree to republican parades on roads at the edge of loyalist housing estates? Or in predominantly Protestant towns etc.?

  • Hopping The Border

    “Some class bonfires being built around Ulster this year (again). “

    Indeed, like this one I suppose:

    http://twitter.com/duckanddodge/status/222795585370066945/photo/1

    Sickening stuff, but then again, sure its all “ar culture”.

    Why won’t the nationalists join in?

  • Mister_Joe

    That is truly sickening, almost beyond belief. What say you OO supporters?

  • tyrone_taggart

    PeterBrown
    ” As is the Drumcree parade – let’s be honest it’s not about the participants its about the principle?”

    I would agree:

    “A fundamental truth or proposition that serves as the foundation for a system of belief or behavior or for a chain of reasoning.”

    Its just not a Christian principle.

  • Hopping The Border

    And for Northern Ireland fans out there – that oh so welcoming team:

    http://twitter.com/Gundalun/status/222847354745786369/photo/1

  • HtB,

    As a non-Hun (in both accepted definitions of the term) NI fan, I am not quite sure why I am being collectively branded with the kind of idiots who put provocative symbols or even caravans on top of a bonfire.

    Not clear what “welcoming team” you are referring to?
    Rangers?
    The English-born twitterer who posted it seems to have more problems with his club than country?

    This link relates the welcome given by NI fans at Windsor to Paddy

    http://tinyurl.com/cta4je9

    Just as a side question (not wishing to divert the threat, obviously).

    Do you feel that every sectarian chant, action carried out by a bigot in a Celtic/ROI shirt reflects on you personally?
    Do you feel the need to personally apologise for it?

  • Amazing how when the Queen had her tete a tete with Marty, optimistic noises were being made by the chattering classes in BT9 that this place was beginning to grow up at last, then one news item about Bloody Sunday by the police, and the spiral back to normal service erupted followed by this week’s marching saga. There’s no hope of political maturity here as long as Pavlov’s dog waits in the wings. NI will never grow up.

  • PeterBrown

    Mister_Joe

    I can’t see the picture now but I’m not sure what anything which was sickening about the bonfire in question has to do with the Orange Order? The fact of the matter is that almost all bonfires on 11th night have no Order input whatsoever and to imply there is a link is like blaming Rangers and Celtic for what often goes on in North belfast etc when they play – it happens at the same time but there is nothing they can do about it. This is why the Order is perceived in the negative way that it is in GB Mark – misinformation and negative spin like this!

    Still no-one taking on the hypothetical other than whataboutery – you answer mine (assuming you can from this lengthy silence) and I’ll answer yours (hint – I’ll start with St Patricks Day in Belfast!)…

  • lamhdearg2

    st pats day cookstown, irish nats parades (through, your term) the shankill (Browns square), the crumlin road parade does not go through Ardoyne, it skirts it, on the least contenious route possible.

  • Reader

    danielsmoran: then one news item about Bloody Sunday by the police, and the spiral back to normal service erupted followed by this week’s marching saga.
    The regular seasonal hoo-hah gets quieter, briefer and more localised every year. It recedes further and further from mainstream experience.
    Clearly, some people each year experience a traumatic episode, or a massive adrenalin rush, but fewer and fewer.

  • reader, you may be right but it’s extremely disingenuois for the OO to cite Rossnowlagh and compare it with sensiticve areas in Belfast. Drew nelson went to Dublin to plead for OO marches there, but careful to assure them they wouldn’t get the treatment reserved for catholics in belfast or crumlin. He didn’t say that exactly but the import was the same.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Peter:

    You could be right but how is the once every 14 years thing a lie?

    I seem to recall a few threads here on Slugger complaining about parades through Crumlin. Slugger didn’t exist 14 years ago.

  • TheGoblinPrince

    Peter,

    The Orange Order is seen in a negative light in Britain because they seem to go out of their way to insult the nationalist communities in Northern Ireland. This is why British people have no interest in Ulster Loyalists. Compare with for example the people of the Falkland Islands or Gibralter, they get all kinds of hassle from the Argentinians and Spanish. The Falklands was invaded. But these people do not go out of their way to antagonise them. The people of Geat Britain are quite happy to defend the rights of these people, but when it comes to Ulster Loyalists behaving like thugs whilst waving the union flag it just turns people off. They have an extremely distorted idea of what Britishness is all about. Stuck about 200 years in the past.

  • ‘they have an extremely distorted idea of what Britishness is all about’.
    I think the Grand master and lodges know well that orange marching isn’t a practice that folk in britain identify as anything to do with them. Apart from OO marches in Scotland, they regard it as alien to them in England and Wales, so it’s a pretence or a delusion of OO members that their blue bag culture goes any farther than their wee colony here.

  • Mister_Joe

    PeterBrown,

    Perhaps you didn’t read my post closely enough. I asked OO supporters to comment.

  • Drumlins Rock

    Joe, will you accept me as an Orange Order supporter?

    Firstly, the Orange Order has NOTHING to do with the vast majority of bonfires, in fact not any I’m aware off this year.

    I also was unable to view the picture you posted, but from comments elsewhere on the internet I’m guessing it was a dispicible image from a few years ago, wrongly associated by some clumsy nationalist politicians with a current bonfire, hence it has now been removed.

  • Mister_Joe

    DR,

    I didn’t post the image. I don’t care when it was first posted, it was still disgusting. I don’t dispute that the OO, in general, have nothing to do with what was displayed. I have known and worked with many Orangemen over my years in Ireland, and, although they considered me to be a “Catholic” because of my background, they never treated me other than with respect.

  • HeinzGuderian

    Peeps who want to be ‘offended’,will be.
    Peeps who don’t,won’t.

    I wouldn’t go to the back door to watch a oo/aoh parade,(seen one,seen em all)but I don’t get my knickers in a twist over them.

  • PeterBrown

    CS the South Antrim combine parade which is the OO parade in question is once every 14 years – it is therefore not a lie…

    Still no-one taking on my hypothetcial scenario – the silence is deafening isnlt it DR?

  • harpo

    “The Falklands was invaded. But these people do not go out of their way to antagonise them.”

    TGP:

    The Falklands situation is hardly the same since there are no Argies living in the Falklands.

    Think about this scenario – say that 30% of the population of the Falkland islands was of Argie descent, and they wanted the Falklands to come under Argentinian rule. Let’s say that part of the population had used violence from time to time to try to get their way, and had helped the invasion in 1982.

    Now what would you think if those people started complaining about flags and symbols being used by the 60% of the population that is of British descent? What if they started complaining about those flags and symbols, and about parades celebrating British rule and other commemorations honouring British losses?

    Would you consider them to have a fair point, and that the whole place should be made neutral, so as not to offend their sensibilities? Would you back their calls for parades to be kept out of ‘Argentinian’ areas in the Falklands?

    I’d really like to know your answers here, because it’s really really easy to be British and not offend anyone if there is noone there to offend (as in the Falklands). It’s also really really easy to be British if you live on British territory that isn’t being claimed by some other party (as in Kent).

    It’s harder to be British if you live somewhere like NI, where the British territory is being claimed by some other party, and there are lots of people who support that claim living there. Unionists in NI face both. They face people every day who claim to be offended by things like the British flag appearing on packages of food. British people in Kent don’t face that.

    The lots of people who support the other claim to the territory make it a cottage industry to pretend to be offended by anything and everything. The demand neutrality, while at the same time feeling entitled to openly show their identity.

    As for the OO we’re told that 95% of its parades are not contentious, so that means only 5 % are. Those 5% are in places like Belfast where nationalists make false claims about what is happening. The OO is not parading THROUGH Ardoyne, it passes by a small part of Ardoyne. The nationalist offense cottage industry turns this into a big deal, and people like you interpret it as the OO going out of its way to cause insult, but is that really what it is doing?

    If the OO did want to cause insult on a massive scale it would try to parade THROUGH many of the nationalist areas in NI. It doesn’t do that as evidenced by the numbers. yet people like you ignore the stats and go with the nationalist story, which is based on nonsense.

  • harpo

    “CS the South Antrim combine parade which is the OO parade in question is once every 14 years – it is therefore not a lie…”

    Peter:

    A point that should be noted about the Crumlin parade is that South Antrim is solidly unionist, with a few small pockets where there are local nationalist majorities. The nationalist offence industry ignores this and claims that Crumlin is a nationalist town. But it’s in a unionist area.

    One would think that Crumlin nationalists would be OK with this large parade that comes by once every 14 years, but there’s no compromise in the world of the nationalist offense cottage industry. They aren’t willing to acccept that they are a small outpost in a majority unionist area. They simply decide that Crumlin is now nationalist and orange feet aren’t welcome.

  • TheGoblinPrince

    Harpo,

    I understand your point. But when people here see rioting going on because of an Orange parade, which people here consider to be a bigoted organisation. It does you no favours. When people here stories about playing sectarian songs outside of churches or burning effigies of the Pope etc, it’s seen as thinly veiled fascism. Not as expressing any kind of British identity. The whole history of the Orange state and the whole ‘A Protestant Parliament for a Protestant people’ mentality. Before the IRA went off murdering and bombing etc .. I suspect if there wasn’t the superior mentality of the Orange state prior to the civil rights movement, and then the complete ignoring of it. I suspect the IRA would have had very little support. From what I understand when the British Army was called in, they were welcomed by the the nationalists as loyalist mobs were running riot. I don’t see how any of that can be classed as British behaviour. It’s just shameful.

  • Mister_Joe

    “nationalist” towns and “unionist” areas. Says it all. Bah.

  • PeterBrown

    MJ
    I did read it – my point was why direct it to OO supporters?

  • Mister_Joe

    Peter,

    I was asking the opinion of the OO supporters on this thread since they are the ones commenting. If you misconstrued what I was saying, thinking that I was attributing the image to the OO, I apologise for my clumsy words.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Peter,

    CS the South Antrim combine parade which is the OO parade in question is once every 14 years – it is therefore not a lie…

    Sounds like a bit of a “judean people’s front” thing.

  • PeterBrown

    CS

    Not sure what you mean – but the one thing it isn;t is a lie ;-p

  • PeterBrown

    What was the picture of?

  • Mister_Joe

    Peter,

    It was an effigy of the “free derry” corner on top of a bonfire with the word “bloody” added before “derry” and with the names of the 13 people unlawfully killed by the paras added.

  • Looks like Robinson and Dodds are going to have the worst of both worlds in [a], not succeeding in their blatant attempt to browbeat the PC to withdraw their conditions for Ardoyne, and, [b] ending up being shown up as two faced when they talk about the new ;norn Iron’ Tomorrow looks very like ending in a Drumcree humiliation mark II, 14 years are the first one. To avoid this, they either forget about the afternoon events at field, and turn up obediently before 4pm, or stay at the field all day then try to pass after 4pm. No win situation for OO and unionist…er, leaders Robbo and Dodds. How they both must wish they’d kept out of it now?

  • Mister_Joe

    It’s somewhat two faced of Robinson to say that the Parades Commission is part of the problem. His party and another proposed a replacement mechanism a while ago and Robinson caved when the OO said no.

  • Mr Joe. This episode shows unionists of either stripe, [DUP/TUV/UUP don’t accept they are obliged to stay within the law , since instead of complying with this, they attempt
    to get the law changed here, [from what it is in the rest of the UK], so they have it both ways, doing as they please with the laws built around their wishes. That also was tried by Donaldson over the fundies who ran a B&B near belfast and jeffrey wanted a different law to ban gays/lesbians from staying in his pal’s B&B while not breaking the law. They’ve bitten off more than they can chew with the Parades Commission this time, I suspect.

  • harpo

    “It was an effigy of the “free derry” corner on top of a bonfire with the word “bloody” added before “derry” and with the names of the 13 people unlawfully killed by the paras added.”

    MJ:

    It actually contained all 14 names of those killed. I know that some folks claim that they’ll never forget but many do forget that 14 ended up dead. I blame those songs/chants that only mention 13.

    Were they unlawfully killed BTW?

  • Interesting to see the attitude towards “The rule of Law” by some commentators here

  • Mister_Joe

    Were they unlawfully killed BTW?

    Saville said so. Unlawfully killed means either murder or manslaughter. I would be prepared to accept that some of the paras simply panicked and were guilty of manslaughter. Others definitely murdered.

  • Comrade Stalin

    It’s somewhat two faced of Robinson to say that the Parades Commission is part of the problem. His party and another proposed a replacement mechanism a while ago and Robinson caved when the OO said no.

    The OO said “no” because they won’t accept any solution which involves them having to face restrictions on their parades. I think that some DUP people privately also suspect that the OO were pushed that way by the UUP for political reasons.

    Interesting to see the attitude towards “The rule of Law” by some commentators here

    I always find the “rule of law” thing a bit of a joke. The Parades Commission is essentially part of the courts system, and the same unionists who required that Sinn Féin uphold the police and courts before they took their seats on the executive are coming out in public to undermine those institutions.

    And we haven’t even gotten onto speaking about the completely illegal 11th night bonfires, several hundred of which are currently ranging, many on public streets.

  • CS,
    My point exactly, thank you for articulating it so well

  • Zig70

    Republican parades and bonfires just make me grimace. A form of flattery. Not the same if you can’t dance round, going we beat you Na, Na, Na. The OO or DUP can’t distance itself from the bonfires, the burning of tricolours, paramilitary flags it’s not as if they ever refused to march under paramilitary flags or complained about the rest of the 12th celebrations. How the OO can partake in a celebration that burns the tricolour on mass and then turn up in Dublin asking for more parades just shows the same kind of thinking that has the earth at 6k years old. Just don’t expect anyone except the indoctrinated to buy it.

  • Hopping The Border

    O’Neill,

    The regular claim is that NI fans welcome players from all backgrounds, which I am sure is the case for the majority, but there is a not insignificant minority who clearly aren’t exactly overly enamoured with the idea – this appears to be an outworking of this

    As for your question on Celtic – I have no affinity to them whatsoever and so couldn’t care less what their supporters say or do. However on the ROI question, singular incidents don’t but group events usually do and as such any of those type of incidents need to be both condemned and the majority explain to the minority that said conduct is not acceptable, examples of which I witnessed in Poland.

    As for apologising, certainly not, other individual fans could not be expected to apologise for the conduct of others, that should be left to the fans concerned (unlikely) or more likely the FA in question.

    Anyway back on topic:

    First off, for those of you who can’t access the earlier picture Mr. Joe is referring to here is another link –

    http://twitter.com/JaneMaskey/status/222818518155014145/photo/1

    Secondly, this rubbish that the OO have no responsibility for those attracted to the parades is simply ridiculous, to return to football briefly, across the continent any club or national team whose fans misbehave is held accountable for the fans’ behaviour.

    Thirdly, I do not believe this idea of parades marching only where they are wanted is anything but a short term stop gap. The nature of population movement means that overtime the makeup of an area will change and areas once hospitable to parades may no longer be. Although I am no fan of what underpins the OO, I have some sympathy for them – for example should they change the route of the ardoyne parade and 30 years down the line the new route has become populated with those hostile to parades what then, do they re-route again? (I believe this to be what happened in Portadown?)

    What is required are concessions by both sides to allow parades to proceed on their designated routes, perhaps those more enlightened then me would suggest some.

    One caveat however, maintaining that you have a god given right to march anywhere you want doing anything you want with anyone you want is not conducive to achieving any type of negotiated settlement.

  • Toastedpuffin

    Look on the bright side folks: But for the Twelfth, what other season would Republicans have for letting the Huns know, at length, in detail, and with orgasmic pleasure, what a shower of Orange bastards they are?

    Altogether now, one more time:

    Catholics good, Protestants baaaaaad!
    Catholics good, Protestants baaaaaad!
    Catholics good, Protestants baaaaaad!

  • harpo

    MJ:

    Where did Saville say any such thing?

  • Zig70

    toasted puffin, Not agreeing with your chant but I think you are grossly overestimating the OO popularity there. I would say people who burn flags, put KAT or peoples effigies on bonfires or put up paramilitary flags should be prosecuted. No right minded person could disagree but it seems many can turn a blind eye. However to stand in the middle of it and complain about your rights being affected is laughable.

  • Mister_Joe

    harpo,

    Go and read it.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Toasted puffin:

    Look on the bright side folks: But for the Twelfth, what other season would Republicans have for letting the Huns know, at length, in detail, and with orgasmic pleasure, what a shower of Orange bastards they are?

    What I don’t understand is what justifies the perception that a wholesale persecution of “huns” is being attempted here.

    I pointed out earlier that out of several thousands of parades, only two are in the headlines over restrictions. At this point, the country is roughly 40% Catholic; if people really wanted to make life hard for Orange marching and were prepared to kick trouble off to do it they could try a lot harder.

    This refusal to countenance any type of criticism or request is what I’d expect of a spoilt child who still thinks his parents are completely unfair and never give him anything. The tolerance shown to marching – and the completely illegal and anti-social 11th night bonfires and the associated celebrations – goes far beyond what would be allowed in any other country in this part of the world. As I also pointed earlier, Alex Salmond is going around talking about how he is going to get the 12th parades in Scotland stopped.

    Before you whinge about being oppressed, please try to have a bit of perspective.

  • Albansmoustache

    You people depress me.

  • Toastedpuffin

    Zig70:

    I’m not defending any abusive behaviour, I’m merely suggesting that listing off the crimes of the Huns has become a way for Republicans to pleasure themselves. There is no genuine concern there, only a perverse enjoyment of sectarian vilification. Such behaviour won’t bring an end to Loyalist excesses, just the opposite.

    CS:

    I don’t perceive any such attempt. I’m merely pointing out the enjoyment of hate in Republican circles as expressed by a number of commentators here.