Thread under temporary review…

Just removed the previous thread for review purposes. Hope to restore as soon as possible..

  • Need any help?

  • Mick Fealty

    I hope not…

  • changeisneeded

    Fair Play Mick. Keep her Lit

  • Dewi

    Archive it at Boston College.

  • socaire

    Publish and be damned…………….

  • Carrickmoreman

    what’s Slugger’s definition of “temporary”?

  • I’ve a wee post on this subject in which the deleted thread gets a minor mention and an offsite link (no comments available though):

    http://wp.me/p1VqOC-72

  • DC

    Cheers Mark.

    Mick – grow a set.

  • DC,

    Mick isn’t the only one concerned. Following my blog PSNI Ards deleted the status and comments I questioned from their Facebook timeline – have a look.

    It can still be seen direct via the link on my blog pending the full FB delete.

    Though I did post the main screenshots and saved a copy of the entire thing so it seems a pointless effort at deleting history from the not so reformed RUC.

  • DC

    What did you think of Duffy’s press statement that his DNA was planted, what would be the point planting DNA whenever the car was intended to go up in flames and be turned into a burnt out shell?

    Was the (attempted) burn out of the getaway car also staged?

  • DC,

    Duffy’s case was the Forensic officers did not note a ‘glove tip’ in their SoC report – this only appeared after the initial scene photos were taken.

    Seems an easy question to answer – why didn’t anyone see the glove tip until 9 months after investigasting the crime scene?

  • Unlike the PSNI or Slugger any discussion I have on this won’t be deleted the second it becomes ‘inconvenient’.

    Doesn’t that just stand out- Slugger and the PSNI trying to hide what they faciliatate by deletion.

  • DC

    Why not plant it on the gun and bullets?

  • DC

    This facebook comment made me smile:

    Legally speaking, no matter whats posted on here, there won’t be enough evidence to link me to this post!……The Judges of this…

  • HeinzGuderian

    mark……I thought you’d left in the huff ? 😉

  • This issue seems to continue to matter in principle Mark. Are there any views on the TWO shootings being an anniversary of Chief Const. Michael Todd’s and Sgt. Fuller’s suicide, or is this the reason for your shyness?

  • dwatch

    “What did you think of Duffy’s press statement that his DNA was planted?”

    As much as I thought of Gerry Adam’s press statement that he was never a member of the IRA.

  • Reader

    Mark McGregor: Doesn’t that just stand out- Slugger and the PSNI trying to hide what they faciliatate by deletion.
    Whereas you are facilitating it *without* deleting it. It was from *your* site that I discovered some of the particularly juicy allegations around the subject. Thanks.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Reader, the other irony is that the usual howls of condemnation about non-jury trials are uncharacteristically absent.

    Given that the judge did not rule the evidence in question inadmissible, I wonder what a jury would have made of this case.

    Mark, I would have guessed up until now that you were against the idea of guilt by association, which seems to be what you are accusing the PSNI of.

  • sonofstrongbow

    What is it about Irish Republicans and staying away? They flounce off with a dramatic cri de coeur, attended by hints at dark undercurrents (or “editorial stance”), only to bob up again like a little brown floater.

    Is everything ok now or are we soon to expect yet another trembling upper lipped speech with bravely stifled sobs of indignation at being dissed always threatening to burst out from below the surface?

  • DC

    The PSNI has taken all the stuff down. Mick should you not now collapse this thread as Mark has commented on it and linked his stuffed which was snipped off the (now removed) PSNI page.

    Besides, the old thread isn’t coming back up.

    Also, I don’t see how the PSNI could have planted evidence in the car as the judge said he was content that Duffy had been in the car at some point.

    Surely if Duffy got off on unsound evidence and tampering then Shivers could also press for same?

    Duffy should take up singing as his next venture.

  • DC

    typo – linked his *stuff

    (I wouldn’t remove Mark’s stuff personally speaking but I am following Mick’s logic based on the previous thread, there is now stuff on this one which is worse than the last one.)

    Duffy held a press statement and there was a question and answer session, a BBC journalist was there and she didn’t ask the obvious question – planted by whom? Maybe I am being obtuse and should know that he is accusing the PSNI but even still if the PSNI had tampered with evidence – in Duffy’s opinion, then maybe Shivers conviction isn’t that sound following along the lines of the “planted” logic.

    I asked him about the murders at Massareene of sappers Patrick Azimkar and Mark Quinsey.

    Here is the exchange:

    Q: Did you have any involvement at all in the Massareene killings and, secondly, what is your view of what happened that night?

    A: Let me state quite categorically here that I had no involvement in what happened at Massareene. No involvement whatsoever. And that has been vindicated in the court because there was no credible evidence to suggest otherwise.

    Q: And what is your view of what happened that night?

    A: Well, these are actions that people are undertaking out there and these people can address these issues themselves.

    Q: Would you describe yourself as a dissident republican?

    A: Depends on how you define dissident. If that means somebody who dissents from mainstream Sinn Fein thinking, then I’m quite happy to class myself in that light.

    Q: You used to be in favour of the Sinn Fein position – what changed your mind?

    A: Obviously you had from the 1998 Good Friday Agreement people moving into Stormont, policing issues, justice issues. All these legacy issues, they haven’t been sorted out to this day.

  • antoinmaccomhain

    Q: You used to be in favour of the Sinn Fein position – what changed your mind?

    A: Obviously you had from the 1998 Good Friday Agreement people moving into Stormont, policing issues, justice issues. All these legacy issues, they haven’t been sorted out to this day

    The vast majority of Republicans,since 1986,are now on the outside of the GFA/Stormont-But,the reason,imo,that Colin Duffy was ‘stitched up’ was because he was seen at an ‘alternative’ republican demonstration,prior to his ‘stitch up’.But,that particular ‘alternative’ republican group are in fact ‘against’ armed struggle.A conclusion i believe the majority of Republicans came to at different stages.The spectacular mis-calculation of the British about the very nature of Irish Republicanism is what lies at the heart of this matter,imo.What they never ‘factored in’ was the Independent mindedness of Republicanism-Hence-British (lack of)Intelligence.-‘He must be the big bad wolf’…. They haven’t a clue who is who and what is what….

  • antoinmaccomhain

    @Why not plant it on the gun and bullets?

    Indeed-What’s the harm?

  • Comrade Stalin

    The vast majority of Republicans,since 1986,are now on the outside of the GFA/Stormont-

    What you are saying here is that there aren’t very many Republicans.

    As for the rest of us, justice is something that we can’t be selective about. It is incumbent upon us to accept the judgement of the court and move on. My own view is that Duffy is a dangerous and malignant influence, but until evidence is obtained to convict him of something there is feck all that can be done about it.

  • antoinmaccomhain

    The vast majority of Republicans,since 1986,are now on the outside of the GFA/Stormont-

    What you are saying here is that there aren’t very many Republicans.-

    No.If you look back into the history of Republicanism,and take an organization like Laochra Uladh for example,or perhaps a better known Republican organization like Saor Uladh,you’ll begin to grasp the nature of Republicanism.

    @As for the rest of us, justice is something that we can’t be selective about. It is incumbent upon us to accept the judgement of the court and move on….

    Being ‘selective’ about ‘justice’ is half the problem,imo.Take the ‘Not In My Name’ society-Where were they when Kevin Brendan McDaid was kicked to death?A catholic-protestant community worker going about his business-Who egged that mob on?

    @My own view is that Duffy is a dangerous and malignant influence

    Hence,he must be ‘the big bad wolf’….until evidence is obtained to convict him ….

  • Turgon

    This is not man playing (sort of) but can I note that whatever else and whatever his motives for it Mr. Duffy has a brilliant beard. I wish I could grow a beard like that. Sadly mine would be useless so I do not try.

  • Comrade Stalin

    No.If you look back into the history of Republicanism,and take an organization like Laochra Uladh for example,or perhaps a better known Republican organization like Saor Uladh,you’ll begin to grasp the nature of Republicanism.

    I’m not trying to grasp the nature of republicanism, I am trying to get you to explain your comment “The vast majority of Republicans,since 1986,are now on the outside of the GFA/Stormont-“.

    Exactly how many Republicans are on the outside ? You must know, since you were able to say “vast majority”. Is it more than the 178,224 votes that SF received in the election ?

  • antoinmaccomhain

    @I’m not trying to grasp the nature of republicanism, I am trying to get you to explain your comment “The vast majority of Republicans,since 1986,are now on the outside of the GFA/Stormont-”.

    Exactly how many Republicans are on the outside ?

    I suppose that depends on how you define a Republican.If you were to calculate every Republican who stood in elections since 1986,and use that as a yardstick then you’d find that most are now either inactive,independent or with a new group.If you factor in everyone connected to the wider republican family through community activism,god only knows.

    Is it more than the 178,224 votes that SF received in the election ?

    I know for a fact that for every one vote they got in the presidential campaign they probably missed at least one-
    I wouldn’t vote in the presidential elections-But i’d consider flinging them a 3/4 vote at the locals,if nobody else stood-

  • Comrade Stalin

    I suppose that depends on how you define a Republican

    Yes, I thought it would.

    .If you were to calculate every Republican who stood in elections since 1986,and use that as a yardstick then you’d find that most are now either inactive,independent or with a new group

    It sounds a bit like you don’t have any actual numbers to support your contention about the majority of Republicans not being associated with SF. Or, put less politely, you are talking out of your hole.

    What about the people who voted, aren’t they Republicans too ?

    I know for a fact that for every one vote they got in the presidential campaign they probably missed at least one-

    I’m very glad we are dealing with facts. Exactly how did you establish this ?

    I was referring to the NI Assembly elections, BTW.

  • antoinmaccomhain

    @It sounds a bit like you don’t have any actual numbers to support your contention about the majority of Republicans not being associated with SF. Or, put less politely, you are talking out of your hole.

    Lets take Dublin West,for example-

    1987-Sinn Féin-James Delaney-1,041-2.0%

    1997-Sinn Féin-John McCann-2,004-5.0%

    2002-Sinn Féin-Mary Lou McDonald-2,404-8.0%

    2007-Felix Gallagher-1,624-4.8%

    2011-Paul Donnelly-2,597-6.1%

    As far as i know only 2 of these people are still with Sinn Féin-But as we all know Mary Lou was a Fianna Failer before she joined Sinn Féin.Perhaps they’ve nobody left since ’86,perhaps they have-If they could manage to keep the same candidate for two elections in a row we’d have a better idea.

  • I have to agree with Turgon.
    Ive not seen a beard of that quality since the mid 19th century……..so to speak.
    Any attempt Ive ever made on growing a beard has been ended by the persistent naggi……er conversational skills of Mrs FJH.

  • Comrade Stalin

    antoin,

    Would you say all the people who left SF have done so because they felt republican principles were being diluted ?

  • Comrade Stalin

    Turgon, FJH, indeed, Mr Duffy would make an unlikely stunt double in an action movie about the life of W G Grace.

  • Mark

    Or he could star in a remake of The Passion of the Christ …..

  • dwatch
  • Mark

    Did Thatcher ever grow a beard ?

  • Thatcher had no need to prove her masulinity.

  • Rory Carr

    The vast majority of Republicans,since 1986,are now on the outside of the GFA/Stormont-“

    That confident statement by Antoinmaccomhain is patent bloody nonsense. I know it, you all know it and the author of the statement himself really knows it but then, having made it he seems to be seized by some weird type of sub-intellectual machismo that onliges him to attemot to support the nonsense with a piece of rambling incoherence rather than simply erase the offending nonsense before he presses the “submit” button.

    It is all predicated, it would appear, on knowing what a Republican really is and (and here’s the sneaky bit) only Antoinmaccomhain knows the secret formula (and he ain’t telling !).

    At least we can guess at the intellectual inspiration behind Antoinmaccomhain’s insistence that he is the sole (and secret) arbiter of who might or might not be a Republican, it is none other than our old friend Humpty Dumpty who, I might add, seems to be quite a popular source for inspiration in recent days on a number of threads.

    “When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean – neither more nor less.” = Through the Looking Glass. Lewis Carroll

  • Stu DeNimm

    No thread at all, 39 comments on it. It takes very little to start an argument in Northern Ireland.

  • sliabhluachra

    A Republican is anything anyone wants it to be. The Provos were anti intellectual and really still are, so an alliance of green (behind the ears) nationalists, Trots, sundry disaffested English gentry and Fianna Failers who don’t get on with their mammies.
    The idea that the RUC would try to stitch up anyone is not particulalry novel or fanciful. Given where Mr Duffy comes from, best not to advocate extra judicial methods to mete out “justice”. That is why we have the PSNI, to mete out…

  • changeisneeded

    “The vast majority of Republicans,since 1986,are now on the outside of the GFA/Stormont-”

    That statement is perfectly TRUE. In the area i live. The shinners are considered traitors , I know no one that votes and everyone knows the cops are biased. Im not talking about a couple of people here but a whole community..

  • galloglaigh

    The Provos were anti intellectual

    That’s why, when ‘British POWs’ were taking ecstasy and having close relations with anything with a heartbeat, the Provos POWs were gaining first class honours degrees and top drawer Master degrees. Those with enough time on their hands went for PHDs, and now they are the ones who will research, and determine how the conflict of the last forty years will be recorded and remembered 🙂 🙂 🙂

  • antoinmaccomhain

    antoin,
    Would you say all the people who left SF have done so because they felt republican principles were being diluted ?

    No.But I think the Republican project,after Éire Nua was ditched,in 1986,became a very narrow project-It took 50 years for Republicans to come up with a political programme/ project of such importance,btw. Understandabe considering that so many Republicans were killed by the Free State during and after the ‘civil war’. I think that when we hear people like Toireasa Ferris calling for a return to ‘community politics’,but who are unable to identify what exactly they mean by ‘community politics’,it would indicate that it was a mistake to abandon the Éire Nua ‘political programme’.Vincent Browne challenged Sinn Féin Senator Kathryn Reilly recently to define what she meant when she called for a return to ‘community politics’.She was unable to do so.

    @What about the people who voted, aren’t they Republicans too ?

    I was referring to the NI Assembly elections, BTW.

    I know you were-If you add the 243,030 votes Martin McGuinness received together with the 178,224 you have a figure of over 420,000 votes.But,if i’m right about the ‘wider republican vote’,then that leaves Republicans so close,but yet so far away,to acheiving Irish Independence. Sadly, it will now boil down to demographics,and ‘sure we’ll outbreed them’ whataboutery politics.

    @It is all predicated, it would appear, on knowing what a Republican really is and (and here’s the sneaky bit) only Antoinmaccomhain knows the secret formula (and he ain’t telling !).

    I actually don’t think there’s anything complicated about knowing what a Republican really is….I think complications came about when certain people tried to apply abstract ‘Industrial Revolutionary’ theories to a ‘fishing village’.

  • antoinmaccomhain

    Comrade Stalin-Quid pro quo-

    @As for the rest of us, justice is something that we can’t be selective about. It is incumbent upon us to accept the judgement of the court and move on….

    Being ‘selective’ about ‘justice’ is half the problem,imo.Take the ‘Not In My Name’ society-Where were they when Kevin Brendan McDaid was kicked to death?A catholic-protestant community worker going about his business-Who egged that mob on?

  • Rory Carr

    Despite my prodding, Antoinmaccomhain insists “I actually don’t think there’s anything complicated about knowing what a Republican really is…” and then goes on to immediately contradict himself by further insisting, “I think complications came about when certain people tried to apply abstract ‘Industrial Revolutionary’ theories to a ‘fishing village’.“.

    It’s no wonder the poor fellow is a bit shy on letting us in on the secret of what he considers a Republican really is. It is enough, he thinks, that we simply take his word that the majority of Republicans are opposed to Sinn Féin despite all evidence to the contrary.

    He will forgive the rest of us for thinking that it seems much more likely that he is in fact one of those lonely unattached dissidents, a kind of Johnny-No-Mates, who has to invent a whole army of like-minded thinkers so that people don’t consider him too sad.

    So far it’s not working.

  • sliabhluachra

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-16628714

    The BBC has a piece on one of the brave boys who fell at Mazarene for Queen and “country”.

    Galloglaigh: PhDs and other degrees done in prison are certainly not top drawer. The Provo researchers, McIntyre included, write about themselves alone. They have not produced a Mairtin O’Caidhean and few of them are astro physicists.
    Republican News was a straight forward ghetto propaganda sheet. Though an Phoblacht had some low level intellectual leanings, when the Belfast lot took it over, that vanished. saoirse has interesting historical snippets, as one would expect, as they try to draw succour from the distant past.
    Cormac was the nearest the Provos got to high thinking.

    Irish Republicanism is a strange bastard child of the French Revolution which copulated with Irish Catholic irredentism to produce Martin McGuinness, Mary Lou McDonald and Neil Blaney.

    I hope people read the piece above. I wonder what percentage of the British armed forces are immigrants or their off spring.
    I heard one of the deceased’s sisters calling for the otehr RIRA attackers to have “British justice” done to them. had their son been killed in Afghanista, would she be on the telly singing the same song?

  • Terry B

    Rory said,

    “At least we can guess at the intellectual inspiration behind Antoinmaccomhain’s insistence that he is the sole (and secret) arbiter of who might or might not be a Republican, it is none other than our old friend Humpty Dumpty who, I might add, seems to be quite a popular source for inspiration in recent days on a number of threads.”

    Not to worry Rory, we all know that it is you who is the sole “arbiter of who might or might not be a Republican” and that Antoinmaccomhain is really only a pretender to your crown.

  • Rory Carr

    A nice little piece of dry sarcasm, Terry B, that managed to raise a smile to lips. Unfortunately, since I do not claim any such judgmental ability, it fails to find its target because there is, in this matter in my case, no target to be found.

    If you are looking for such instant judges on here, apart from Antoinmaccomhain’s thesis on political demographics you might want to have a look at the post just above yours by Sliabhluachra who is quite the master of the quick definition of any matter that happens to flit fleetingly across his mind.

    “…few of them are astro physicists…” he claims, speaking of what he terms, “Provo researchers. but one can’t help thinking after reading the litany of unsubstantiated, opinionated twaddle that precedes and follows, that really the fellow would be more comfortable confining his remarks to things to do with Astro Turf.

  • dwatch

    galloglaigh, John Kyle PUP councillor said: “They say that in Long Kesh while the republican prisoners took university courses, the loyalist prisoners went down to the gym. In actual fact, more loyalist prisoners left Long Kesh with university degrees than republican prisoners did.”

  • galloglaigh

    dwatch

    John Kyle might have indeed said that – But is it true? I doubt it!

  • sliabhluachra

    The claim that Loyalist prisoners did more degrees than Republicans would be hard one to uphold. That said, the Provos, who specialised murder in the first degree, deliberately murdered lecturers and sent their own lecturers over to England to bomb and do time, all for we know what.
    Provo cheer leaders and NF baiters notwithstanding, the Provos have no intellectual tradition. One only has to look at their leaders to see that they never burned the midnight oil studying. When Eamonn McCann and Bernie Devlin were off to Queen’s, others were skulking in butchers’ shops in Derry or sheebeens in Belfast, learning a “trade” and wondering how to use bombs (carried by others) to slither up the social ladder.
    How many convicted PIRA members are university lecturers, what with all the top drawer they acquired? That Doherty TD fellow even had to horse and hoof about being an engineer. And Mary Lou “studied” what?
    Irish “republicans” tend to be users. Fancy sending Brian Shivers, a terminally ill guy, out to do the business? Then you had that promising snooker player from Strabane? The Provos did him a big favour, getting him banged up.
    The Provos’ forte is tabloid style propaganda. Masters of the four lettered word and not of science. Their only men of letters are postmen and, indeed, post women . Purely tradesmen people and untrustworthy and untrained ones at that.

  • dwatch

    galloglaigh, is your statement any more truthful? I doubt it.
    Only by producing official documented evidence will prove who is telling the truth, you or Dr Kyle.

  • Dewi

    http://www.ofmdfmni.gov.uk/final_literature_review.pdf

    Some data on Republican prisoners there.

  • Alias

    Less than 5% of loyalist and republican prisoners signed up for Open University courses while in prison, despite that service being available as an alternative to work. In other words, most of them would rather do menial work than learn something.

    Apart from being educationally subnormal, most of them had mental health issues that continued to be a problem after their release:

    “Mental health issues were also a matter of concern.

    Over half of the politically motivated ex-prisoners surveyed reported symptoms characteristic of posttraumatic stress disorder.

    Over a third (39.9%) reported suffering clinically significant mental health problems, 32.6 % had received prescription medication for depression in the last year and 45.2% said that since release from prison there had been times when they had not wanted to go on living.

    Standardised screening measures for alcohol problems indicated that 68.8% of respondents engaged in levels of drinking that were hazardous, and 53.3% met the threshold for alcohol dependence (alcoholism).

    The women surveyed were almost as likely to be misusing alcohol as men.” – Dr. Ruth Jamieson, Dr. Adrian Grounds and Dr. Pete Shirlow, Queen’s University Belfast

  • sliabhluachra

    Dewi Thanks for that link. I have copied and saved the file for future perusal. If Alias is quoting from the same source, the figures or the data set seem suspect to me.

    Whilst the effects of long term incarceration are well known and whilst Kieran Nugent was not alone in descending into the abyss, and whilst Brendan Behan wrote about the early morning houses being full of ex IRA men and ex Brits, I very much doubt the figures are that high.
    Those ex IRA prisoners, who did long stretches for Gerry and the Peaemakers, I know on a personal basis, display slightly different personality traits. The hard drinkers among them are no longer with us. The rest show very controlled anger, traits of spending too much time in solitary/alone and unspoken regrets of what was taken from them.
    I would imagine the sample is skewed. Ex (regular) soldiers are over represented in homelessness, prisons, mental institutions and what not. But many more are just fine and most do not speak of their exploits. Again, that has been my experience with veterans of all British, Australian and American campaigns back to VJ Day.

    Another area where independent and proper reearch could be usefully done.

  • sliabhluachra,

    What an elitist worldview, disrespecting the great majority of the population. Disgraceful.

  • dwatch

    Alias: “The women surveyed were almost as likely to be misusing alcohol as men.”

    “In 2001, Price was arrested in Dublin and charged with possession of stolen prescription pads and forged prescriptions. She pleaded guilty and was fined £200 and ordered to attend Alcoholics Anonymous meetings.”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolours_Price

  • Mark

    What’s your point dwatch ?

  • antoinmaccomhain

    Rory Carr-‘Me thinks your a billy-no-mates……

    I’m a fanily man.Not that it’s any of your business-

    Rory Carr-‘Dissident Republican…….

    No.I left Sinn Féin before the GFA.I’ve no interest in politics beyond a community level.I think labels like that are ‘extremely’ dangerous….

    New years eve for example,i had a mountain bike flung at the windsceen of a car in which i was a passenger.It was aimed at my head.Now as far as i’m concerned,this came about due to elected representatives,labeling people with terms like ‘vigilante’.Something which i certainly am not-But i will say this-The idiot who threw the bike was lucky i wasn’t driving the car……….But then again,so am I.

    A year or two ago i was asked to join a left wing party.I declined the offer.Two weeks later i was a ‘;vigilante’……

    As this thread was about the Internment of an Innocent man,i apolagize for going ‘off-topic’.