The Dirty War: Informers are not necessarily ‘agents’…

Liam Clarke has a useful corrective for those who think agents are the same thing as informers…

Martin McGartland, who infiltrated the IRA in west Belfast, was an agent in the purest sense. He joined the IRA at the request of his handlers and did exactly what he was told; it involved no switch of loyalties.

Several members of the IRA’s internal security team, like Stakeknife, were double-agents. They were trusted by the IRA to frustrate Crown forces, but were ‘doubled’ by the intelligence services to spy on the IRA, instead.

After that, it gets more complicated. It is clear now that many of those who passed information to the authorities believed they were in charge of the relationship and didn’t tell all they knew.

Many ‘worked their passage’ with the police, passing on this and that in return for favours, to settle grudges or to save their life. They may not have thought of themselves as agents at all, especially the loyalists.

This is one reason why a maximal interpretation of the term collusion is problematic… It turns even the most passive contact between security forces and paramilitaries into something much more strategic and active…

It also leads to otherwise unfounded rumours regarding the alleged split loyalties of unnamed figures within the leadership of the IRA… It’s pernicious, unprovable and an all too easy means of distracting from the complex realities of the past…

Weirdly, this is the term preferred by Sinn Fein themselves when dealing with so called collusion between Loyalists and security forces…

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  • John Ó Néill

    Hmmm. The spook narrative must be coming adrift again.

    Easiest analysis is to decide whose political purposes they serve(d) and attribute accordingly. An informer in UFF, IRA or whatever, is clearly aligning themselves with the informed (no matter how politically inconvenient that has now become). Based on the Ingram/Fulton/et al narrative the Sutton Index doesn’t come close to capturing the complexity of why some people were killed (if what they say is true). But, then, why ever believe the spooks since their main function has always included deception?

  • “why a maximal interpretation of the term collusion is problematic”

    The very use of the term collusion is problematic. It appears to be often set in a negative context and used as a political weapon. Why can’t it also be portrayed in a positive light where it leads to a reduction in destruction and death?

    Collusion: to cooperate secretly: to have a secret understanding

    IMO the ‘Derry Experiment’ was a positive act of collusion where the paramilitaries and the security forces were able to gradually wind-down their activities via mutual but non-specified steps. Douglas Hurd’s involvement might indicate an MI6 as distinct from an MI5 role in the process.

    Eleven days after Douglas’s meeting/collusion with Martin and Mitchell, Patrick Mayhew asserted in the House of Commons: “The question continued : “Has there been contact between people who could be regarded as emissaries or representatives of the Government ?” I said : “No, there hasn’t. There has been no negotiating with Sinn Fein ; no official, as I see is alleged” has been “talking to Sinn Fein on behalf of the British Government. We have always made it perfectly clear that there is going to be no negotiating with anybody who perpetrates or justifies the use of violence. That’s been our public policy, and it is our private policy and we have stuck to it.”

    Why can’t Ministers be more transparent? Would it not be in the best interests of democracy to do so?

  • “They were trusted by the IRA to frustrate Crown forces, but were ‘doubled’ by the intelligence services to spy on the IRA, instead.”

    Instead? Surely ‘as well’ is the apt term for those who acted in the two roles.

  • Why can’t Ministers be more transparent? Would it not be in the best interests of democracy to do so? ….. Nevin 23 December 2011 at 12:58 pm

    Nevin, Hi,
    That question is probably most easily answered with another awkward inconvenient question.

    Have you any idea the amount of bull**** those puppets are peddling and pumping and hiding to try and ensure that you don’t discover how simply you are programmed to behave in a fashion of their international paymasters’ choosing?

  • Cynic2

    “their international paymasters’ choosing”

    Can you please confirm the nature of the ‘international paymesters’. Are they

    1 the occupants of that satellite in geostationary orbit over Ireland?

    2 Freemasons?

    3 The Prieure de Zion / Knights Templar?

    4 Opus Dei?

    5 International Zionists?

    6 Santa and His Elves (Well, it is Christmas)

  • Alias

    Does this mean that Lord Stevens wasn’t including informers/touts when he said that “of the 210 people we arrested, only three were not agents”?

    Surely then there would be more informers/touts and agents than there were paramilitaries?

    Luckily, not everyone is as pedantic…

  • Cynic2

    Mick

    Yes. Some were just informants who passed on information for money or favours. Others were agents who, becasue of their position of power or influence, were tasked to make changes.

    Presumbaly many of those changes were for the collective good.

    You can imagine the Army Council discussion ~ 1994:

    Speaker 1 “Right boys. The people are tired of war so they are, so why dont we outflank the Brits and con them into a peace agreemenet where we can continue the struggle by political means”

    Speaker 2 “Jezus that’s a great idea. But we need to keep the guns”

    Speaker 1 “Ay, course we will keep the guns. Unless of course , through our sueprieor republican skills, we can negotiate to trade them in for something better”

    Speaker 2 “What might that be?”

    Speaker 1 “Well we could get them to take the Army out and run down the peelers, get them aff our backs”

    Speakjer 2 “Naw, they’d never do that”

    Speaker 1 ” Well my sources tell me that if we played out cards right and pushed really really hard we might make the Brits give in. Sure even Clinton wud be behiund us then. We might even get our own Parliament”

    Speaker 3 “At Stormont?”

    Speaker 1 ” Well maybe at Stormont. Now Im saying we may have to make a few concessioons here and there. Nothin too drastic. The odd wee policy. talking to Trimble….that sort o thing. But just think how that will annoy the Prods and sure isnt that positive.

    Speaker 3 ” Ahm nat so sure”

    Speaker 1 ” Dont you trust me. Havent we always managed tae delivered with the Brits? ”

    Speaker 3 ” Aye, lets give it a go”

    {Collective applause from rest of Army Council}

    Speaker 1 is an Agent.

    Speaker 2 (reporting this all back to his handler) is merely an informant.

    Speaker 3 could either be a very clever agent or a future Dissident. If the latter he may shortly find himself visited by the Security Department for a quick debrief and reminder of Rule 27 (b) 3 in the Green Book – “Thou shalt not open thy gob without permision”

  • Alias

    “I once interviewed Mr McCoy and it was clear that that was not how he saw the situation.”

    Why is Clarke proffering this line?

    How would he see McCoy’s attempt to recruit Irish Army Commandant, Patrick Trears, to the employment of MI5 in return for money? What does he think of MI5 agent, Major Peter Maynard, accompanying McCoy on that visit to Trears’ home?

    These are agents of a foreign state, acting to subvert the Irish national interest, and to promote British national interests.

    There is nothing innocent about their activity, however they or their interviewers try to spin it. Remember, this was going on at a time when the intelligence services these people were colluding with were bombing Irish cities.

  • Mick Fealty

    Alias,

    As John says above, you have to take into account this is a secondary source, and brought to light by someone with some skin still left in the game.

    To amplify John’s point further, no one with skin in this game can be trusted, including protagonists on the non state side.

    But the substantive point here is that there is a difference between informing selectively, agency of the type Stakeknife is accused of, and full blown infiltration.

    If we accept there was a subtle gradation of British infiltration of all paramilitary organisations, Republican as well as Loyalist, treating anything that whiffs of contact with Loyalists collusion, whilst dismissing any contact with the Provisionals as dismissable spookery is at best disingenuous, at worse an attempt to re-engineer the truth about the past.

    Interesting footnote to the Miami threads is the otherwise inexplicable fall in fatalities after those first five or six years of the troubles. The British, on the face of it, played a clever long game.

    Infiltration of Loyalists appears to have taken down their overall kill rate, albeit they have important questions to respond to over the killing of Pat Finucane and others, there appears to have been very little evidence that the British security forces used loyalists to take out Provisional operatives.

    If anything, the alleged existence of a ‘top man’s agreement’, between republicans and loyalists not to touch management is reflected in the relatively low targetting rate of each others men. Out of thousands of overall casualties, they each only took out a few tens of each other.

    Would we call that collusion? Or just a convenient agreement between close neighbours to let other get on with managing their respective ‘campaigns’?

  • Alias

    Cynic, you have quite a flair for that type of post…

  • Alias

    It comes back to my aborted ‘debate’ with Pat McLarnon: the absence of facts does not negate the responsibility to form a working opinion – which, by definition, is not a fact.

    You have an opinion that the state’s involvement in the murder campaign promoted the common good, whereas Lord Stevens has formed the opposite opinion:

    “When you talk about intelligence, of the 210 people we arrested, only three were not agents. Some of them were agents for all four of those particular organisations, fighting against each other, doing things and making a large sum of money, which was all against the public interest and creating mayhem in Northern Ireland.

    I think Lord Stevens is much closer to the mark. However, I don’t accept his opinion that such “mayhem” was the result of an organisational deficit.

    My opinion is that it had a specific purpose. Indeed, I’d go with Kitson in regard to the dissidents: that these are “pseudo gangs” created by the state to soak up those who would invevitably not stick with the state’s other gang, the Shinners.

  • “why ever believe the spooks since their main function has always included deception?”

    John, party press officers, party apologists, politicians and Government ministers avail of the noble art – as do advertisers. If I’ve left any groups out I do apologise …

  • latcheeco

    Nevin,
    Post of the week!

    Cynic2,
    Is it because it’s panto season yall are writing funny skits?
    “It’s James Bond behind the curtain”
    “Oh no it isn’t”
    ” Oh yes it is”
    ” Oh no it isn’t”
    ” Oh yes it is”
    Curtain goes up and it’s the panto horse, rear end first

  • Framer

    Mick writes “Martin McGartland, who infiltrated the IRA in west Belfast, was an agent in the purest sense. He joined the IRA at the request of his handlers and did exactly what he was told; it involved no switch of loyalties.”

    You try and add something like that to McGartland’s Wikipedia article and you will be met with a wall of Republican wiki-warriors reverting everything back to ‘informer’ or ‘tout’. Read the ‘discussion’ page –

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Martin_McGartland

    There is only one permitted discourse there and it involves no Catholic being allowed to be other than a loyal nationalist.

  • Mick Fealty

    That was Liam, point certainly taken. I suspect that’s because no one else cares as passionately about that issue. The general trend on Wikipedia tends towards accuracy and truth.

  • Alias

    “As John says above, you have to take into account this is a secondary source, and brought to light by someone with some skin still left in the game.”

    Yup, but a lot of folks using that line are really saying that the emperor’s chothes are beautiful. An actual authority, Judge Smithwick, is of the opinion that Hurst’s testimony is of importance to his Tribunal – has stated and he has put extreme effort into securing it – including prolonged exchanges with the London High Court, UK Ministry of Defence, NIO, Treasury Solicitor of England and Wales, etc.

    In reality, Mr Hurst is a former army member who has been silenced repeatedly by the British government and its Courts in an attempt to stop his whistleblowing. It is simply far-fetched nonsense to suggest that Mr Hurst is still employed by the intelligence services as part on an elaborate charade to discredit the Shinners. That is a conspiracy theory that could only be believed by gullible Shinner devotees.

    “But the substantive point here is that there is a difference between informing selectively, agency of the type Stakeknife is accused of, and full blown infiltration.”

    Yes, some touts were more important than others. But we already know that from the fact that the British state used its agents within PIRA to murder its less useful ones and to murder others to protect its more useful ones. Indeed, it did the same in its other murder gang, the UDA. Another Belfast-born Italian was set up by the FRU’s Brian Nelson to be murdered by that state-controlled murder gang in place of Mr Scappaticci.

    “Interesting footnote to the Miami threads is the otherwise inexplicable fall in fatalities after those first five or six years of the troubles. The British, on the face of it, played a clever long game.”

    With a little help from their friends, Gerry and Marty.

    “Infiltration of Loyalists appears to have taken down their overall kill rate, albeit they have important questions to respond to over the killing of Pat Finucane and others, there appears to have been very little evidence that the British security forces used loyalists to take out Provisional operatives.”

    The state appears to have made an executive decision to increase the “kill rate” among the uppidy catholics then since loyalists murders increased significantly prior to the PIRA ceasefire to the point where they were killing more than PIRA were. If the state can turn it down it can turn it up again. This was helpful to Gerry and Marty, of course, since it helped persuade the catholics that it was time to sign up to the legitimacy of British rule.

    “If anything, the alleged existence of a ‘top man’s agreement’, between republicans and loyalists not to touch management is reflected in the relatively low targetting rate of each others men. Out of thousands of overall casualties, they each only took out a few tens of each other.”

    That true. There are a very revealing stats such as that one. For example, 99% of all murders occured within the containment zone of Northern Ireland. Given that the British state was the declared enemy, it was ‘lucky’ that the campign very rarely found its way to enemy soil.

    Another interesting stat is that the Smithwick Tribunal in enquiring into claims about the only two high-ranking RUC members killed during the camapign. It was nice of the Shinners only to kill the plebs while leaving ‘top men’ untouched. You’d almost think that the top men designed that particular policy…

  • Has Liam Clarke just initiated a second silly season?

    A rose by any other name would smell as sweet – WS

    I’m having a tomahto on my salad this evening. My good wife will have a tomayto instead.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    “But we already know that from the fact that the British state used its agents within PIRA to murder its less useful ones and to murder others to protect its more useful ones. ”

    Typical of the lazy rubbish you do not like getting pulled up on. The simple fact is “we” do not know any such thing. You insert such langauge in an effort to give a bit of solidity to your ramblings.

    Could you give a few examples where it has been established the British state used it agents within the IRA to “murder less useful ones”?

  • Framer

    Yes the words quoted were Liam Clarke’s not by Mick himself who is right to say, “The general trend on Wikipedia tends towards accuracy and truth.”

    I agree Wiki is reliable except on Ireland where the Republican view predominates. Examples are that all place names and many other names are given in Irish in almost equal prominence to the English (whether used or not); Derry City can never be called Londonderry; people are never murdered by the IRA only killed. These are house rules agreed after dispute ‘resolutions’.

    BTW, ‘Alias’ states wrongly “another interesting stat is that the Smithwick Tribunal in enquiring into claims about the only two high-ranking RUC members killed during the campaign.” There were two other RUC officers of their rank murdered and five killed.

  • latcheeco

    So after being laughed out of court for earlier grandiose statements we’ve had our man clarify that when we said secret agent deep within the IRA what we actually meant was the April 1991 episode where an octagenarian lady spied a neighbourhood youth wearing a Celtic top from behind her net curtains and phoned crimestoppers.

  • Munsterview

    Nevin : “….Why can’t Ministers be more transparent? Would it not be in the best interests of democracy to do so?…”

    Excellent question; could not agree with you more’ hope that it is implemented if Britain ever becomes a democracy !

  • Munsterview

    Cynic2, ; “…. 6 Santa and His Elves (Well, it is Christmas)….”

    Not too sure about Santa but some of the Elves appear to have been compromised, and not just during the Christmas season either !

  • Munsterview

    Cynic2 : “…Presumably many of those changes were for the collective good.

    You can imagine the Army Council discussion ~ 1994:…… ”

    Cynic2, I will make this very easy for you; while there were many strands in the latter ceasefires and peace process, one thing above all finished the major armed aspect of the Insurgency and Counter-Insurgency from the Authorities viewpoint, in the early nineties, all the available resources of the British Army were needed for the Middle-East and Far-East madness.

    If these additional British Troop requirements were not looming on the horizon for the long planned for wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, then the Six County Low Intensity War would have been continued by the British Army and State for the same reason it always had, it was a useful operational ground for Counter Insurgency Training.

    Without fully understanding the extent that Ireland was always used as England’s laboratory for trying out new Counter Insurgency concepts such as The Black & Tans who in a later conflict materialized again as ‘The Palestinian Police’ and The Auxies who were best typified in a more modern incarnation, in the battalions strength of Serving mainly Officer Class ‘leave of absence’ and ex- Service professional soldiers who fought in Yemen and other ‘undeclared’ conflicts where, officially, Britain was not involved, there cannot be any appreciation of certain aspects of the ‘Northern Conflict.

    Through the services of these ‘ Chinese walls’ mercenary soldiers, Britain was often the main participant and instigators of these dirty little hidden Low Intensity Wars to protect UK Ruling Class interests. Post 1969 the Six County Conflict became the main Training Ground for both operative hands on experience and to try out new British Army and Spook, Low Intensity Warfare concepts.

    That is why Britain kept ‘the pot on the boil’ for as long as they did and equally why the most of the conflict activity was brought to a relatively speedy end, irrespective of how many Unionist toes had to be trodden on or Orange heads banged together in the process!

  • Decimus

    one thing above all finished the major armed aspect of the Insurgency and Counter-Insurgency from the Authorities viewpoint, in the early nineties, all the available resources of the British Army were needed for the Middle-East and Far-East madness.

    Munster,

    So in your opinion the republican terror campaign was squahed only when it suited the British to do so. Interesting.

  • Munsterview

    Alias : “….It is simply far-fetched nonsense to suggest that Mr Hurst is still employed by the intelligence services as part on an elaborate charade to discredit the Shinners. That is a conspiracy theory that could only be believed by gullible Shinner devotees….”

    As far fetched perhaps as a guy living say in a quite rural village outside a main Munster town, married to an Irish woman, a good husband to her and a good father to his children etc who readily told anyone who asked what he did when frequently away from home that he was ‘A Secret Agent’.

    As the Sunday Times investigative team uncovered in considerable detail, he was just that. Whatever about his morals, his sexual stamina was apparently quite remarkable as he seemed to have bedded every female ‘protest camp’ administrator the length and breath of Ireland and quite a few in the Continent as well.

    Then again you well know all this Alias, but as the ‘apron and compass’ crowd would say, ” From The Ways of The Craft, ye shall divert”!

    Alias : ‘….Another interesting stat is that the Smithwick Tribunal in enquiring into claims about the only two high-ranking RUC members killed during the camapign. It was nice of the Shinners only to kill the plebs while leaving ‘top men’ untouched. You’d almost think that the top men designed that particular policy…’

    Well I suppose they could always crank up yet another Enquiry and summons all these ‘Top People’ who were responsible for these agents on the State Side and compel them to tell the truth of what happened ?

    Oops…..forgot……no can do!

    There was that unfortunate ‘chopper crash’ in Scotland wasn’t there?

    Too bad that these ‘Top People’ who directed all this skullduggery on the State side are no longer about ?

    Well I suppose that depends on ones perspective, as Lizzy Windsor said ” one wishes things had been done different etc” but there we are.

  • Munsterview

    Decimus : “….So in your opinion the republican terror campaign was squahed only when it suited the British to do so. Interesting…..”

    I have repeatedly delineated the three main stages the Republican campaign went through.

    First phase was ‘Bomb and Bullet’ with the military requirements having a primary call on resources and the politics secondary.

    Second phase was ‘Armalite and Ballot Box’ where each side was resourced and uses as necessary with the Political aspect gradually taking primacy.

    Third phase was Politics only where ‘The Armed campaign’ was not only deemed unnecessary by the majority of the Mainstream Republican Movement, it was also deemed dangerous and an exhausting of human, financial and other resources that could give a far better return when used for conventional politics.

    This process was underway from well before the ‘Humes/ Adams’ meetings. It was the logical and inevitable outcome of a long process and strategy for Republicans. The fact that there was a coincidence of interests with British requirements made the process easier and quicker, that is all, Republicans would have made the process happen anyway.

    There are two main views on all of this, ‘that of ‘Alias’ school that would have you believe that Republicans were shuffled around from political pillar to post by the Brits until one Monday Morning they all woke up in Stormount wondering how they got there.

    The second is just as Joe Cahill’s generation learned the lessons of the 56 Campaign and adjusted their military tactics to suit a new era, so also in the political sphere, Republicans, learned, adapted, adjusted their policies to achieve political objectives and implemented these politics. As somebody who took part in many of these evolving debates, the reality of what transpired is far different from what Alias & Co. try and present.

  • Cynic2

    “Cynic, you have quite a flair for that type of post…”

    Alias

    Ouch!!!! And almost on Christmas Eve too

  • Cynic2

    Munsterview

    ” I will make this very easy for you”

    Oh goody!!!!!! Thank you sir.

    “That is why Britain kept ‘the pot on the boil’”

    The scales have fallen from my eyes. It wuz the Brits wot done it all as part of an evil experiment to perfect their counter-insurgency techniques. Why didn’t I see that before!!!!

    Been down the Armalite and Ballot box today for some Xmas Cheer have we? It doesn’t mix with Priozac you know. Or Viagra …so so I am told.

    Anyway. Even though I think you are mad Happy Christmas down in Munster

  • Cynic2

    Munsterview

    By the way, I forgot to mention. You set out three stages

    First phase was ‘Bomb and Bullet’

    Second phase was ‘Armalite and Ballot Box’

    Third phase was Politics only

    I agree. And all the while the Army and RUC sheep dogs snapped at the heels while the agents of influence worked to shepherd d the flock into the pen.

    Baaa Baaaa

    But let’s face it – aren’t we all glad they did. For isn’t this far better

  • Munsterview

    Closing down and heading for the hills !

    Thanks to the Mick and the slugger editorial for all their good work during the year ( bloody red cards exempted of course) and to all the rest of you also who contributed articles, posts and comments.

    A very happy and peacefull Christmas to one and all home and away, friend and foe alike.

    Ar cairde fe glas, misneach, seasamh an fod, bheig an la againn fos!

    A prosperous new year, or as close as possible to one also to all for the new year.

  • Alias

    “Typical of the lazy rubbish you do not like getting pulled up on. The simple fact is “we” do not know any such thing. You insert such langauge in an effort to give a bit of solidity to your ramblings.” – Pat Mc Larnon

    You’re sticking too closely to the official Shinner line for your own credibility. You might claim that Freddie Scappaticci wasn’t a long-term British agent appointed to a controlling role in PIRA’s intelligence/security unit by Mr Adams not because you actually beleive that he wasn’t an agent (you’re too intelligent for that) but because you wouldn’t be doing a good job as a Shinner mouthpiece if you didn’t dutifully propagate the official party line.

    Judge Smithwick and others of authority are duly satisified that Freddie Scappaticci controlled PIRA’s intelligence/security unit and that he was a long-term British agent.

    This means that circa 50 PIRA members murdered by their own internal security unit were in actuality murdered by an agent of the British state. It’s an appalling vista for the Shinners because not only did their leaders appoint Scappaticci to the role, they protected him in that role for almost two decade despite many of the families of PIRA members murdered by that unit as ‘touts’ later protesting their innocence. So we have a clear example of the leaders colluding with British intelligence to murder their own PIRA members.

    The primary purpose of appointing British agents to run the internal security/intelligence department was to ensure than British agents would not be detected within PIRA. British agents will not expose other British agents within PIRA if they are still deemed to be useful. They will only murder agents who have outlived their usefulness or murder non-agents in order to protect useful agents.

    The Shinners should simply issue a statement apologising to the families of all those murdered by their internal security/intelligence department, stating that the “facts” established by their British-controlled kangaroo court are no longer deemed to be reliable ‘evidence’ for the murders of their loved ones. While they are doing that. Mr McGuinness might like to issue a seperate statement apologising to the Hegarty family for the murder of a less useful agent by Scappaticci in order to protect the more useful McGuinness.

    That would be the decent thing to do, wouldn’t it?

    “BTW, ‘Alias’ states wrongly “another interesting stat is that the Smithwick Tribunal in enquiring into claims about the only two high-ranking RUC members killed during the campaign.” There were two other RUC officers of their rank murdered and five killed.” – Framer

    Can you name these other officers? All media reports have stated they are the two highest ranking. Here is what Wiki says:

    “The two highest-ranking RUC officers to be killed in the Troubles were Chief Superintendent Harry Breen and Superintendent Robert Buchanan when they were ambushed by the Provisional IRA South Armagh Brigade outside Jonesborough, County Armagh, on 20 March 1989.”

  • Alias

    Framer, I’ve jut gone through the entire list of all 300 murdered RUC members. Chief Superintendent Harry Breen is the highest ranked officer murdered during the campaign, 1979 to 1998.

    http://www.royalulsterconstabulary.org/memorial.htm

  • Alias

    Sorry, 1969 to 1998.

  • Framer

    Alias, true but it is not what you wrote – “the Smithwick Tribunal in enquiring into claims about the only two high-ranking RUC members killed during the campaign.”

    Your point was to suggest a conspiracy – “It was nice of the Shinners only to kill the plebs while leaving ‘top men’ untouched. You’d almost think that the top men designed that particular policy.”

    As the grounds for your theory are based on faulty statistics it falls. There were four Superintendents murdered in the Troubles, not just Breen and Buchanan.

    Your conspiracy theory also fails to recognise that lower rank RUC officers were out on patrol day and night and thus considerably more vulnerable to the IRA than largely, desk bound higher ranks.

  • “their international paymasters’ choosing”

    Can you please confirm the nature of the ‘international paymesters’. Are they

    1 the occupants of that satellite in geostationary orbit over Ireland?

    2 Freemasons?

    3 The Prieure de Zion / Knights Templar?

    4 Opus Dei?

    5 International Zionists?

    6 Santa and His Elves (Well, it is Christmas) ….. Cynic2 23 December 2011 at 1:48 pm

    With regards to that request, Cynic2, is the answer akin to trying to catch a shadow but you know it is true even in the midst of all those convenient red herring wannabes.

    This post elsewhere elaborates on the global situation and fiscal reality somewhat APTly*

    Posted by amanfromMars on 12/23/11 10:28 AM ……. on http://thedailybell.com/bellinclude.cfm?id=3385

    “Try following the money. The real question is, if huge rich countries are in debt, thus borrow money… who exactly is able to lend these countries all that money? How is it they have this much money to lend in the first place? Don’t say China either (it predates this)… even China borrows money. So, who are the people behind these loans? That is the question. It would seem that who ever these people are… they likely live in a way that they can not be that invisible… although certainly they pull the strings of that money power from behind closed doors and with out a peep from the media… which has long been bought up and rigged as such.” ….. Posted by expatriot on 12/23/11 07:06 AM

    Hi, expatriot,

    Quite who is behind any of the system which provides liquidity and solvency to nations and peoples and businesses out of nothing, and that is exactly how it is done, should not/does not really matter a jot, but the fact that it is done so simply and magically, and now increasingly more widely known to be done so simply and magically, is something of an increasingly difficult and dangerous a problem for any of those who would be even suspected of being instrumental and actively supportive of the facility/scam/utility/magic/call it what you will, because of the way in which they have selfishly used and systematically abused the system to enrich and empower themselves inordinately and impoverish and enslave everyone else made reliant upon the system.

    The whole thing, and the Great Game, is a huge Ponzi now imploding and gonna destroy a whole lotta filthy rich white folk, who really should have known better, for it is not as if their purloined wealth could not have oh so easily bought in the intelligence to save them from themselves and all of the descending pain, and how catastrophically foolish was that misunderestimation from them.

    APT …… Advanced Persistent Threat …….. which may actually be something those of whom we speak about here, are experiencing relentlessly first hand themselves as highly prized, legitimately targeted non-entities for constructive destruction and Greater Game removal for a New World Order in AI and with Worlds ruled and reigned over/administered and mentored from SMART CyberSpace, which doesn’t suffer the follies nor the presence and influence of rich fools and cheap tools.

    Do you think that nice new £20million building in Palace Barracks is a Fabulous Fabless Fun Factory …… Virtual Communications Hubs for Higher Orders of Intelligence and HyperRadioProActive IT? Or would you not have the faintest clue about what it is being done in there, and what can be done from there?

    Merry Xmas, one and all.

  • galloglaigh

    Whatever about the difference between an agent and an informer/tout, Liam Clarke doesn’t go far enough to highlight the activities like that of Stakeknife, Torrnes Knight et al. These men, as seen in the case of Knight, an animal whose sectarianism strikes to the bone, were paid massive amounts of money, both inside and out of prison. Their handlers had to know of their activities, but turned a blind eye. That cannot be denied. But the question is: Who allowed this to happen, and how far up the chain did it go? How can these sums of money go unaccounted for, and at what stage in the chain were people told to ignore such payments and let them proceed?

    Another question arises: Do the intelligence agencies still work in the same manner as they did during the troubles? And indeed are these activities passed for use in other countries, and if they are, how can the MOD defend such payments in hard times as we are in?

    One of the reasons economies are in melt down, is the amount of money spent occupying other countries, and the military capability needed to maintain these occupations. No wars – No recession!

  • Reader

    galloglaigh: One of the reasons economies are in melt down, is the amount of money spent occupying other countries, and the military capability needed to maintain these occupations. No wars – No recession!
    Wars triggered by political vanity are no doubt a massive waste of life and resources. And wars of principle are also costly, whether justified or not.
    But I think it’s a complete waste of time to suggest that wars for resources (if such wars exist at the moment) are a waste of money – the sums have already been done and came out positive. And a pro-active and flexible intelligence service is far cheaper even than that.
    So, if you’re going to deploy the cost argument – proceed with caution.

  • Cynic2

    A man from Mars

    Where would we be at Christmas without Bacofoil

  • Cynic2

    “as seen in the case of Knight, an animal whose sectarianism strikes to the bone”

    Just like those involved in republican murder gangs – two sides one coin

    “One of the reasons economies are in melt down, is the amount of money spent occupying other countries”

    Actually that is tripe.

    “Do the intelligence agencies still work in the same manner as they did during the troubles?”

    Let’s hope so – it proved highly effective

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    “You’re sticking too closely to the official Shinner line for your own credibility.”

    You are trying the old method of repeating tabloid headlines long enough and hoping that eventually they will be the accepted narrative on which to base an argument.

    You are guessing and actually not doing a very good job of it.

    By the way you are doing a good job reading the mind of Judge Smothwick.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Smithwick.

  • Alias

    Framer, your point was a tad unclear “There were two other RUC officers of their rank murdered and five killed.” Murdered and killed?

    Anyway, there was only one Chief Superintendent murdered. That was the highest rank ‘touched’ with the top men left untouched during the entire 29 year period. In addition, there were 4 Superintendents. That gives 5, not 4 as your “faulty statistics” declare.

    However, that leaves 295 murder victims of lower rank. Given that 98.3% of RUC members murdered were not of equal or higher rank, I hardly think that my “theory” that the top men were left untouched fails.

    Rather, your theory that PIRA did target high ranking security members fails.

  • Alias

    Actually, having checked again, it was 3 superintendents murdered (Alwyn Harris, Stanley Hanna, and Robert Buchanan), not 4. Adding 1 Chief Superintendent, Harry Breen, that means that 1.4% of RUC members murdered by PIRA over a 29-year period were not “plebs.” The rest were.

  • Alias

    Out of curiosity, why do you think the “theory” fails if 4 were murdered but holds if only 2 were murdered? The percentage difference is between 2 out of 300 compared to 4 out of 300 is so insignificant that I’m wondering why you think it a deal-breaker?

    If wasn’t just the top men in the RUC who could sleep soundly in their beds, the top men in the British army, intelligence services, etc, also seemed to have a remarkedly easy time of it…

    Enjoy your holidays.

  • A man from Mars

    Where would we be at Christmas without Bacofoil …..Cynic2 (profile) 24 December 2011 at 12:55 pm

    Don’t be such a cynic, Cynic2, for there is much that mortal man does not know, and would struggle with himself to believe even as IT reveals that which is to be known to him with Networks Internetworking to Present the Future with Media and News Sharing Views …… Immaculate Sees.

    Do you see a Parallel Singularity with the aforementioned APT and the novel Loughside facilities and this introductory paragraph in a old Secret missive ……… 1 Structural Organization of the Falange

    Since this report does not pretend to be a study of the complete Falange organization, it will only concern itself with such aspects of the movement as affect the general intelligence picture. The most important function of the Falange abroad from the German viewpoint is the attempted domination of the Latin American countries …. the achievement of “Hispanidad”. The basis for this desired control is, of course, the fact that many of these lands were formerly a part of the Spanish world empire. It should not, however, be interpreted that the Nazis are philanthropic in their backing of the Spaniards, but rather are they planning to take over the reins of control after Latin America has been mentally subjugated by the Falange. ……. http://cryptome.org/0005/spain-spies-1944.pdf

    ASLAN on Way Above Top Secret AIMissions, Cynic2? 🙂 The Wise and SMART Enabled in Live Operational Virtual Environments, would consider a question of fact, a fiction well spun, and when a future path true, a Magical Mystery Turing Trip into Sublime Advanced ProgramMING.

    And a little bit of something extra special for Thames House Trojans to ponder and realise changes Everything, both practical and physical and virtual and ethereal, by many orders of perception, and would challenge their Intelligence holds on what is and is to be, and to be Real and Surreal and Virtual Reality.

  • Cynic2

    I should have remembered. Never feed the Trolls, epecially at Christmas

  • I should have remembered. Never feed the Trolls, epecially at Christmas…. Cynic2 24 December 2011 at 8:56 pm

    Why on earth would you disadvantage yourself so, and have oneself endangered of being considered a muppet and/or puppet, whenever such as has proven itself to spook systems as an overwhelmingly pleasant for the present and unconventional and irregular surprise, ….[although a beautifully misguiding troll identity is a superbly disengaging disguise, is it not, with its perceived benign and powerless association] …. offers for free something else which would be completely different and would be able to effortlessly provide so much more than just stale cake and mouldy crumbs from graceless round tables, groaning with beastly feasts.

    Another question arises: Do the intelligence agencies still work in the same manner as they did during the troubles? …… galloglaigh 24 December 2011 at 11:59 am

    Only the ones which have lost the plot and are failing to provide any worthy and valuable intelligence which is of any good future use in 21st Century Networks, galloglaigh, so you can make up your own mind about anything you might think is being presented by any present spooky intelligence service. Methinks most of them, and indeed there would be those who are Systems SME who would even suggest to you that it is all of them, are hacked right to the centre of their every inner core process and discovered to be NOT up to the level of universal neuro-linguistic programming sophistication needed nowadays to exercise effective global control from Virtualised Offices in CyberIntelAIgent Security Systems for New Worlds AI Ordered and Administered, Mentored and Monitored in CHAOS……… Clouds Hosting Advanced Operating Systems.

    But the relentless march of such renegade rogue systems/private pirate networks is no secret and its shocking awesome powers of control well recognised and fully acknowledged in third parties engaged in destructive ventures and imperialist adventures? 🙂 Although one imagines there are precious few smiles in those houses of cards. 🙁 Oh dear, what a shame. Care to Dare Win and/or Lose All in a Different Beta with NEUKlearer HyperRadioProActive IT in Absolute Command and Remote Control of ……. SMART Memes and Virtual Machines?

    177. The metropolis aims to shelter itself from inevitable malfunction via its network structure, via its entire technological infrastructure of nodes and connections, its decentralized architecture. The internet is supposed to survive a nuclear attack. Permanent control of the flow of information, people and products makes the mobility of the metropolis secure, while its’ tracking systems ensure that no shipping containers get lost, that not a single dollar is stolen in any transaction, and that no terrorist ends up on an airplane. All thanks to an RFID chip, a biometric passport, a DNA profile.
    178.
    179. But the metropolis also produces the means of its own destruction. An American security expert explains the defeat in Iraq as a result of the guerrillas’ ability to take advantage of new ways of communicating. The US invasion didn’t so much import democracy to Iraq as it did cybernetic networks. They brought with them one of the weapons of their own defeat. The proliferation of mobile phones and internet access points gave the guerrillas newfound ways to self-organize, and allowed them to become such elusive targets. …..
    http://pastebin.com/CAWDEW8G

  • Framer

    Alias – you based your point on the fact that only two high ranking RUC officers were murdered when in fact it was four. That is why your point falls. You were out statistically by 100%.

    The other five high ranking officers killed (including an ACC), as opposed to being murdered, were on the helicopter thatcrashed in Scotland.

    Your percentages of lower rank officers (including Inspectors!) murdered compared to higher rank are meaningless without first knowing what percentage of RUC officers were at the rank of Superintendent and above.

    Also if there was an agreement or understanding between the IRA and the RUC not to kill one another’s top brass who knew about it,?

    For it to work, a fair number would have to be apprised, would they not?

  • And as a final flourish for today, here is a wonder to ponder and intelligence to counter and/or reinforce if fit and able for leadership in the future?

    Dr Williams will say: “The most pressing question we now face, we might well say, is who and where we are as a society. Bonds have been broken, trust abused and lost.

    “Whether it is an urban rioter mindlessly burning down a small shop that serves his community, or a speculator turning his back on the question of who bears the ultimate cost for his acquisitive adventures in the virtual reality of today’s financial world, the picture is of atoms spinning apart in the dark.” …. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/8977412/Archbishop-speaks-of-broken-bonds-in-society.html

    And if the naked fabulous truth be told, would the Archbishop have been primed to say … “The most pressing question we now face, we might well say, is who and/or what and where are we as a society, for whenever both the ignorant masses and smart asses are so easily programmed to believe in any old fiery tale, is the very real likelihood of a virtual machine existence more of a reality than anything else……. and such does then suggest that another order is more easily established if such is an accepted possibility and the future probability, with more than a few boffin types already proving the concept to be entirely valid.

    And you can be certain that any intelligence agency worth being considered a provider and user of prime leading product, would be actively engaged in ensuring a handle on such primary developments, or be proven to be pretenders at, and in the Great Games being played all around them.

    One does wish them all the best, but it may be that they are more than just a tad behind that/those particular and peculiar curve[s].

  • Cynic2

    First time I have seen ad advocate for Borg Culture, Happy New Year

  • An Advanced IntelAIgents Program for BetaTesting Future Concepts and Crashing Corrupt and Compromised Dummy Operating Systems, Cynic2.

    And eminently plausibly deniable from ………Well, You Know WhoM

  • Mainland Ulsterman

    Very well put by Liam Clarke – and as Mick says, a useful corrective to all the artful vagueness in debates over “collusion”.