Israel and Unionism

One thing that raises tensions on Slugger more than the ‘traditional route’ of the Orange/Green debate is anything to do with Israel and the West Bank/Gaza. There have been several comments in the past month which have questioned the reasons behind the linkage, perceived or otherwise, between NI Unionists and the state of Israel. Yesterday [Friday 2nd] Turkey expelled the Israeli Ambassador following the leaking of a UN report concerning the boarding of the  ‘Mavi Marmara’ in May 2010. So I thought it might be useful to tease out some of thinking behind Unionist support for the state of Israel.  This thread is, by the way, not apologetics but informational.

Support can be separated into two distinct categories which I have chosen to call – ‘Religious Beliefs’ and the ‘Parallelists’ [yes I think I’ve made up that word]. In previous posts the argument has been put forward that it’s the evangelical bible thumping Prods of Ulster that support the Israelis – but this I think is a rather narrow perspective.

Dodrade in a good thread a while ago  stated,

I believe the roots of Unionist solidarity with Israel lie in evangelical Protestantism. As a people brought up in a bible-centred, old testament-heavy tradition, hearing at church, home, Sunday school, and via the loyal orders the tales of Moses visiting the ten plagues upon Egypt and freeing the Hebrews from slavery, Joshua leading his people to the promised land and tearing down the walls of Jericho with a blast of trumpets, Gideon defeating the Midianites with a mere 300 men, of David slaying Goliath, and of how against the odds Jehovah would repeatedly deliver his chosen people from the Egyptians, Assyrians, Persians, and Philistines, it is little wonder that god-fearing unionists would naturally favour the modern-day state of Israel against the descendants of its ancient enemies

Whilst this is a reasonable argument [and in some circles not incorrect] I feel it is a little simplistic. In my research for this article I would conclude that some members of The Royal Black Preceptory, which is steeped in Old Testament theology and imagery, would seem to fit Dodrades assessment fairly well.

Religious Belief

Within the Protestant church it is primarily the one branch of Dispensationalists who would show complete theological solidarity with Israel. The theology of dispensationalism usually argues that the progress of revelation, including New Testament revelation, does not cancel Old Testament promises made with national Israel. Dispensationalists argue that national Israel will see the literal fulfilment of the promises made with her in the Old Testament. One of these includes the provision of the land of their birth. Most Protestant churches would not in essence be Dispensational.

Also included within this heading are those who believe in British Israelism; the belief that people of Western European descent, particularly those in Great Britain, are the direct lineal descendants of the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel.

The final grouping [outside those previously discussed] would be those Christians who believe that the Israelites remains ‘in a state of Grace’ with God. As they are His divinely chosen people, [2 Samuel 7:23]

And who is like your people Israel, the one nation on earth whom God went to redeem to be his people, making himself a name and doing for them great and awesome things by driving out before your people, whom you redeemed for yourself from Egypt, a nation and its gods?

and they as such should be supported by Christians around the world for this reason if no other. There are those within this grouping who would mitigate this support in certain circumstances, immoral or unjustifiable actions by the Israeli government would be examples of these.

The Parallelists

Forget religion. For many in the Unionist communities there were clear similarities in the struggle between the Security Forces [in NI] and the IRA;  and in Israel – the IDF and PLO /Hamas /Hezbollah.  I’m sure those who supported [s] the IRA would see the struggle in exactly the same way [from a different perspective] and actually welcome such a parallel, believing themselves to be freedom fighters trying to liberate the land of their birth from invaders.  People purporting these views could be non religious or wholly secular Unionists. The IRAs links with Middle Eastern terror groups are well established. Gaddafi’s terror sponsoring regime began supplying the IRA with the financial, military and logistical assistance it required to prosecute its ‘campaign’ in Northern Ireland following visits by Joe Cahill to Libya in 1972. We also know that the IRA, PLO, ETA, Hezbollah, FARC, Uncle Tom Cobbly and all trained and shared information and resources together at various times during their respective campaigns. There were also support networks [to a greater or lesser extent] between these organisations.

The ‘Unionists’ who fall outside these boundaries.

Those Unionists / Loyalists who would have sympathy with the putrid Combat 18 [C18] wholeheartedly agree with the Republican assessment of the Zionists and their allies.

In the past some Loyalist terror groups have had contact and reciprocal support from C18 but this ceased about 5 years ago according to ‘Searchlights’ assessment.

Many Liberal and  Socialist Unionists [I use NEITHER of those in a disparaging way] would also refuse to support Israel and their sympathies lie more clearly with the Palestinians.  Within the political Unionist community Fred Cobain would be the obvious example.


Some writers have marvelled at why Unionists would support a country [Israel] who targeted and killed many British soldiers and support workers in the immediate post war years in Palestine.  For Unionists who tend towards pragmatism, the Troubles and the interdependence between the IRA and similar terrorist organisations in the Middle East at the time seemed to be the key factor in overlooking Israel’s past skirmishes with the Brits in favour of empathy with a new ally.

In summary I would say, and it is a qualitative statement, that more Unionists fall into the ‘parallelists’ camp than any other – although that’s just my assessment. It might be interesting for someone to write a comparative study on Republican / Nationalist support for the Palestinians. Fitz, MV…can’t tempt anyone?

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  • Presby

    Vanhelsing, Difficult subject! Personally, I recognise the distinctions you made. Others may disagree.

    For the record, and I speak as a committed Presbyterian, there are a number of us within the Presbyterian family who do not see a Biblical argument for the existence of the State of Israel. There might be a political one – others can make that case.

    Moreover, and this is shared by moderate Israelis, what is happening to Palestinian people is a human rights violation. Any evangelical who overtly supports aggression towards the Palestinians would do well to research the suffering of their brothers and sisters in the tiny Presbyterian and Baptist communities in Gaza and the West Bank.

  • Into the west

    the opposite is very simple:
    Free Ireland, and Free Palestine sit together.
    both fighting historic and present injustices.
    palestinians want a state
    republicans want a 32County Ireland

    I’m rather glad you didn’t add Sarah Palin to Israel and Unionism.
    Though some in your community do that.
    I suppose they think “let’s go the whole hog “.
    Ouch.. no mercy whatsoever, compassion forget it !

  • Turgon

    Van Helsing,
    Thank you for that. A nice article and a very good summary of the different views within the religious belief group especially. Maybe worth mentioning that most people with a religious support of Isreal would probably be dispensationalist though very few dispensationalists believe in British Isrealism. As one person I know once said it was “an eejit notion.” Does not change an excellent article: thanks again.

  • Into the west

    “guns, guns, guns” as the song goes

    Ulster kept in UK by threat of guns ( UVF 1912 )
    Zionist bombs, King David Hotel, massacres of palestinians
    Tea-party : lets reload, drill baby, and make war.

    Anyone who opposes the above are called “terrorists”.What?
    Its just so fukt up , where/how do you begin to unravel it?

  • Into the west
  • Rory Carr

    An interesting attempt at explaining this phenomenon, Van Helsing.

    Just a few comments, if I may, before my afternoon nap:

    I can understand the religious argument about God’s redemption of the Jewish people from Egypt because of their holding true to the One God against the the idolatry of Egypt but surely it cannot be the case that subsequent behaviour is not acknowledged. Are idolatrous Jews who have fallen away yet also to be redeemed? If a Jewish Communist state were to be established in Tel Aviv would the redemption guarantee apply to that? If it would not what then is the use of it? It is no longer a guarantee. Either it is unconditional or it is not. It cannot be both.

    Are those who hold that some elements of White Europeans (including chiefly, themselves) are descended directly from the Lost Tribes of Israel not treated as stark, staring, bonkers by their fellow religionists ? And, if not, can you explain why this might be so?

    And, finally:

    I believe that Unionists can themselves be forgiven for forgiving the past sins of Israel against British forces in Mandated Palestine. After all their masters, the Brits did that a long time ago. Besides it was only British squaddies who were sacrificed so what’s the odds, heh ?

  • Turgon

    Into the west,
    I am well aware of this view of theology. I have never expressed a personal or religious view on Isreal, Zionism or anything related. There is a reason for that: I regard the issue as complicated and nuanced.

  • vanhelsing

    @turgon – you are completely right, I could have been a little clearer I think.

    @Rory – I was afraid someone would ask what is in essence an excellent question:) My understanding [and I hope someone else can tease this out] is that is goes to ‘Covenants’. Some Christians would argue that the Covenants [promises of which there are seven – not including the ‘New Covenant’ made with the church through Jesus] that God made with the Jews are conditional on obediance, yet others would argue they are unconditional [ie it would not matter on whether they [the Jews] held up their part of the bargain:)

    Part of this interpretation also conerns ‘Replacement Theology’. I will include a link:

    I’m not a theologian but perhaps in the course of the thread we will all learn something:)

  • Alias

    In my experience Unionist support for Israel is based on rational concepts such as support for democracy, an opposition to terrorism, and familiarity with the facts as opposed to gullible acceptance of MSN propaganda. David Vance, for example, is a very well-informed Unionist blogger, and I have yet to hear him or any unionist mention lost tribes or other religious concepts in his expressions of support for Israel.

    The historical parallels are superficial and don’t withstand strutiny, e.g. Jews are indigenous to Israel and not ‘planted’ in it, and the ‘Palestinian’ nation doesn’t exist, comprising members of other Arab nations with no Palestinian language or culture or any actual right to self-determination. Besides, if the ‘Palestinians’ were to ‘parallel’ those Catholics who support them in NI then they’d have to give up their bogus claim to self-determination and subject themselves to the veto of the Israelis in the same way that those Catholics did.

  • Greenflag

    @ Van Helsing ,

    These ‘dispensationalists ‘ british israelites ‘ and all the rest including the Royal Black are to put it at it’s simplest -nuts-and BTW Hurricane Irene was not a special delivery by God because Jehovah was upset by the US Congress and NO the ‘universe was not hey prestoed into existence 6,000 years ago despite the beliefs of rustics among the braes of Antrim.

    A far better and much more cogent response to Israeli aggression , tyranny and murder in Gaza is given here by Norman Finkelstein author of a number of books on Israel-Palestine conflict, including “This Time We Went Too Far”: Truth & Consequences of the Gaza Invasion..

    FInkelstein’s piece tearing apart the hypocrisy of this UN report is a classic.

    BTW it is possible to support an Israeli State without supporting that State’s current criminal and dehumanizing policies against it’s neighbours and against many of it’s own citizens. Likewise it’s entirely possible to support an NI State in 2011 while remaining committed to it’s eventual replacement .

  • Alias

    Also, in regard to Vance as a unionist blogger, there is a strong conviction expressed in the sovereignty of a state and its right to defend itself from attack. In that respect there is a closer parallel between two nations under siege.

  • Brian

    A post about Israel? I expect 100 comments at least.

  • Greenflag

    Turgon .

    ‘There is a reason for that: I regard the issue (Israel/Palestine )
    as complicated and nuanced.

    A priceless and noteworthy comment . I nearly fell off my chair;)

    It just needs to be followed with

    ‘Whereas Northern Ireland is simple and straightforward and a case of black and white or green and orange or good and evil or saved and unsaved ‘

    Indeed 🙁

  • Turgon

    The religious issues are indeed complex. Assorted suicide bombers blowing up Isrealis on buses etc. is, however, very simple: a bit like terrorism here in Northern Ireland.

  • Banjaxed

    And so, Turgon, in your ‘very simple’ comparisons vis-a-vis bombs in NI & Israel, how would you define the use of phosphorous and cluster bombs in residential areas in Gaza by the Israeli army?

  • Turgon

    How many phosphorus bombs or their equivalents were used here in Northern Ireland? Oh yes at least one: La Mon.

  • RepublicanStones

    David Vance, for example, is a very well-informed Unionist blogger,</i.

    No he's not. He just affirms your own ideology. i have seem him routinely taken to school on his own blog surrounding the I/P conflict. I also recall me highlighting the inherent anti-semitism of Dispensationalist theology on Slugger before and highlighting how many supporters of Israel are indeed anti-semitic, Mr Vance didn't deny any of my comments and promptly banned from his site.

    Jews are indigenous to Israel and not ‘planted’ in it,

    Judaism the religion is, but many jews, infact the majority of those currently living in Israel would be descended from jews who were indeed ‘planted’ as per Herzl’s vision. There were indeed indigenous jews living in Palestine before the advent of zionism, and many of them opposed zionism. But to claim world Jewry as a whole are indigenous to an area most of them have never set foot in, is patently ridiculous and indicative of the intellectual dishonesty of some.

    and the ‘Palestinian’ nation doesn’t exist, comprising members of other Arab nations with no Palestinian language or culture or any actual right to self-determination.

    I believe i have picked you up on this attempt to legitimize the illegitimate before Alias. Ihe imperial/colonial aspect of your sentiment is unmistakable. What you are doing is taking what is essentially a European concept (the idea of nation state) and superimposing it upon a non-European people and thereby judging them unworthy of their own land. But here’s the funny part, by using the this European model, the Palestinians actually are closer to the concept of a nation/people/race than world Jewry are. See how that kinda backfires on your ideology.

    in NI then they’d have to give up their bogus claim to self-determination and subject themselves to the veto of the Israelis in the same way that those Catholics did.

    Im glad we kinda agree on something. The two state solution is dead, thanks to the continued colonization of the land by settlers. Some folks already believe that between the Palestinians in the OPT and those living in Israel proper, that Israel already governs a majority of non-jews. but unfortunately it doesn’t do so democratically.

  • Greenflag

    @ Turgon ,

    With respect at least from my point of view the ‘religious issues’ ‘ are not complex . You have fanatical fundamentalists in both NI and in the Middle East and they each have a history of ‘religious ‘ turmoil going back centuries . Fortunately for other historical reasons more to do with modernisng politics and simple geography NI is not despite the flying of Israeli and Palestinian flags in some areas a Middle East look alike . The latter area is home to 90% of the world’s oil supplies and then there’s the 200 Israeli nuclear bombs whereas NI is at most sitting on a some out of date gunpowder .

    I’ve not yet met anybody British or Irish or anybody else who has been to Israel and who has had a good word to say about the Israeli treatment of their Arabic speaking citizens and particularly the corraling and killing of the people of Gaza.. Former US President Jimmy Carter brings the issues to the fore in his recent book ‘Palestine -Peace not Apartheid’.

    Probably not a good read for Zionists or those Unionists who feel they are as beloved by their God as the Israelis are by theirs 🙁

  • Drumlins Rock

    Vanhelsing, good article and dare I say an expansion on a comment I made on a previous thread? the one thing I would add is, the vast majority of Unionist would have no opinion on the issue whatsoever, and apart from a very small minority of either religious or parralelists, smypathisers would be anyway active.

  • RepublicanStones

    It might be interesting for someone to write a comparative study on Republican / Nationalist support for the Palestinians.

    I can well remember the first time my interest in this subject was raised. 3rd year history class. Studying the arab-Israeli conflict. Our teacher played the infamous clip of the soldiers breaking the arms of the youths. He asked us did we think the soldiers were arab or jewish. IIRC most of the class raised their hands to proclaim the soldiers were arabs. I must admit i did to. What with my early orientalist indoctrination that Arabs = Bad. The mad Libyans chasing Doc brown in Back To The Future being a perfect example of what my experience of Arabs was up til that point. Upon learning that the soldiers were not actually what my naiveté had assumed them to be, i was hooked.
    It wasn’t just the basic similarities of the irish-palestinian issue that intrigued me (both being colonial issues etc) it was the little tangible links i encountered as well. Such as the Black and Tans serving in both regions, as they had been shipped over by Churchill to be lead by General Tudor, or that Sir Charles Wickham of the RUC was called over to Palestine as an advisor during the mandate. Of course once one has visited, and seen first hand the dignity of the average palestinian as he/she goes about their daily lives, in a context that I would think would drive me mad, you can’t help but remain interested.

  • wild turkey

    Mr or Ms Vanhelsing

    a sincere thanks for a clear, well argued and provocative post. i particularly appreciated the humility and commonsense of your categorisation of those unionists who fall outside either box. so one, or two sizes, don’t necessarily fit all!!! … refreshing.
    you are to be congratulated,,,, so congrats.

    intuitively i would tend to go with the parallelist school on the simple basis that if the apartheid south african regime is thrown into the mix, it clearly highlights primacy of political considerations in the formation of allegiances. as an aside, i attended Queens as a mature student in the early/mid eighties and have clear memories of some “young” unionists proudly wearing “Hang Nelson Mandela” T-shirts. well the younguns have grown up now and some of them are actually…. ah lets save that for another post.

    good luck and i look forward to more of your posts.


  • Drumlins Rock

    RS, I don’t remember doing the “Arab-Israeli conflict” in third year history, wonder why one school system taught it and another one didn’t? it would seem your interest was sparked by a teacher who had an interest in the subject, or else the Catholic church designed history lesson?

  • RepublicanStones

    I have no idea Drumlins. Twas the same year i studied the Russian Revolutions or ‘red 17’ as i nicknamed it (didn’t catch on)

  • Alias

    “But to claim world Jewry as a whole are indigenous to an area most of them have never set foot in, is patently ridiculous and indicative of the intellectual dishonesty of some.”

    That’s amusing. It’s like arguing that pizza didn’t originate in Italy because most of it is now produced in other countries. The actual argument is whether Jews are indigneous to the region or imported and whether there is a valid parallel between Protestants in NI. However, you could use your own warped ‘logic’ to argue exclude so-called ‘Palestinians’ from having a historical claim to the region. Indeed, the majority of them are descended from the ‘Palestinians’ who arrived after 1917. ‘Palestinians’ are 100% comprised of other Arab nations with no Palestinian language, culture, art, science or even a historical state to unite them. The common theme is subsidy with their numbers growing according to the amount of free money that is hurled at them. Hence they have increased from 700,000 in 1950 to over 4 million today. Take away the free money and they’ll soon drift back to the countries they came from. The Palestinian identity is entirely a 1960s invention and pure fiction.

    “What you are doing is taking what is essentially a European concept (the idea of nation state) and superimposing it upon a non-European people and thereby judging them unworthy of their own land.”

    Actually, it is the ‘Palestinians’ who cite Article 1 of the UN’s ICCPR in their claim for a nation state, so you might want to be a tad better informed before undermining their claim to same. Of course, those nations that constitute ‘Palestinians’ already have a validated claim to self-determination under the various nations (e.g. Jordan where half of them come from) and the rest, although technically stateless, are alligned to the nationalism wherein they orginated.

    “Im glad we kinda agree on something. The two state solution is dead, thanks to the continued colonization of the land by settlers.”

    Again, this shows the invalid parallel between the Catholics in NI and the so-called ‘Palestinians.’ The two-state solution has been accepted and constitutionally implemented in NI but is rejected by the Palestinians.

  • Alias

    To clarify the last sentence: the two-state solution in NI rejects the right to the Irish nation to self-determination, rendering it an aspiration that is subject to the veto of another nation. That is the aspect that Palestinians reject for themselves but the catholics accept. Unlike the Catholics, the Palestinians insist on their right to self-determination.

  • oracle

    Perhaps it’s their mutual interests that are the magnetic draw for each other.

    Planter stock stealing all the best arable land.
    An insatiable lust for sectarianism
    A preference for a corrupt judiciary.
    Security services guilty of war crimes
    Better jobs
    Better housing
    Ugly looks

    I’m away to hide behind the sofa now.

  • Rory Carr

    Turgon is right, Greenflag, “the religious issues are indeed complex.”

    This is the case precisely because they are religious issues and therefore riddled with contention, defensiveness, contortion and distortion as distinct from a simple journey on the spiritual road which requires acceptance and forgiveness above all.

    Having said that I nevertheless find them fascinating, much in the manner of a good serial killer detection novel – we know that it is a load of tosh, yet so enjoy being teased by false trails and scapegoats and all the legalistic hooey and it keeps us diverted for hours from the important but unattractive business of the day.Just like religion distracts us from the matters of the soul with all the glamour of specious argument and human conflict that is so necessary for its continuance.

  • RepublicanStones

    Indeed, the majority of them are descended from the ‘Palestinians’ who arrived after 1917.,/i>

    really? is this the land without a people… argument?

    That Joan Peters myth was rubbished years ago.

    Palestinians’ are 100% comprised of other Arab nations with no Palestinian language, culture, art, science or even a historical state to unite them.,

    Again you’re superimposing Europeans ideas on a non-European people. Apart from you’re rather insidious attempt to propagate the ‘all arabs are the same’ myth (and I can tell you an Arab in Algeria would have great difficulty understanding an Arab in Syria) you also undo your own ideology by your pre-requisites for nationhood. Aside from the fact that this mythical ‘Jewish nation’ was a vassal state of other powerful empires (Egyptians, Assyrians, Babylonians) for most of its existence. Academics believe that Israelites actually only ruled themselves for approx 73 years. Lets not ignore the undeniable history of conversion and proselytism that Judaism has as well, much of it far beyond the Levant. To take the idea of nation state, a european concept, lets apply it and see who actually does comprise a better fit. Palestinians all speak the same language. World jewry does not. Palestinians all come from one spot on the globe, World Jewry does not. Palestinians have a shared culture, dance, food etc, aside from their religion which is both islam and Christian. Tell me what unites Woody Allen with a Persian Jew aside from anything to do with their religion? Whether or not the Palestinians suit your idea of a people worthy enough of their own land, matters NOT A JOT.

    The Palestinian identity is entirely a 1960s invention and pure fiction.

    Again lies. Granted Palestinian nationalism arose as a result of the plans Zionism had envisaged for them, but like all nationalities, even this mythical grand millenniums old Jewish one, they are man made. The Palestinian claim of nationhood actually fits the concept better tan world Jewry’s does. They did not require the governance of some Dail or Parliament when they rose up against Napoleon in 1799. They were simply human, they loved their kith and kin and had real tangible ties to the land they lived on. Because they lived, died, farmed and loved on that land.

    [removed – ball not man – careful]

    The two-state solution has been accepted and constitutionally implemented in NI but is rejected by the Palestinians.

    Again more lies, the PA has endorsed the two-state solution. As has the rest of the wider Arab world with the Saudi backed roadmap, which advocates such and has been on the table now for a decade, including full normalization, but for some strange reason, Israel has remained mute.

  • RepublicanStones

    BTW i apologise to VanHelsing et al for my angry post. But having been involved with this issue for some time, the intellectually dishonest arguments that are routinely propagated (as evidenced here) grate with me. Having friends over there gets the better of my emotions too.

  • Greenflag

    @rory ,

    ‘Turgon is right, Greenflag, “the religious issues are indeed complex.”’

    For people who have a detailed interest in , religions , sects , revivalists , bibilists , fundamentalists , dispensationalists , sensationalists , predestinationalists , resurrectionists , rapturists , bapturists , seventy day adventurists , romanists , papists , jehovists ,calvinists , behemothists , buddhists , wahabists , spiritualists , voodooists, scientologists , endofdaysists and whatever you are having yourself religious alacartists or even churchoftheday soupists not to be confused with the ‘soupers ‘ of mid 19th century Ireland who chose to live rather than die in a ditch with a mouth full of nettles 🙁 he Turgon may have a point .

    But for those of us who would rather look for the evidence before our all too human eyes -the doubting thomases , the skeptics , and even the spiritual cosmologists – well the verdict is that you could shove all the purveyors of the above mentioned isms and sectaries into a very large jute sack and tie the bag good and tight and then walk fifty times around said bag and beat it severely every five yards with a large baseball bat and you would’nt have to worry about ever causing injury to an innocent but instead would know that every time a scream issued forth from the sack that another snake oil salesman or heaven magician had received his/her just desserts 😉

    The same procure could of course be carried out on Wall St or at Westminster or in the Dail with equal impact 😉

    ‘as distinct from a simple journey on the spiritual road which requires acceptance and forgiveness above all.

  • Greenflag

    addendum ,

    ‘as distinct from a simple journey on the spiritual road which requires acceptance and forgiveness above all.

    You might think that Rory but I have it on good authority that Calvinists are not much into ‘forgiveness’ – You are either saved or damned and there’s nowt you can do about it -for it was decided a long time ago when the earth was green or was it red and had’nt cooled down sufficiently by the God of Gods who could see into the far off mists of time and knew from way back then that Rory Carr’s fate was already decided and alas he would’nt make the cut whereas turgon by virtue of his possession of grace would get to tune up the eternally somnolent harps in the heavenly choir of Cherubim and Seraphim .

    As for that iconoclast and heathen Greenflag it’s eternal shish kebabery for him in an eternal seedy Greek Gyros restaurant with a role as the main course for ever and ever etc .

    Jesus wept and why would’nt he :(?

  • Alias, have you read Arthur Koestler’s book about Khazaria? It was an area near the Caspian Sea where the local tribes converted to Judaism rather than be allied either to Christian Byzantium or the Muslim states. It became a powerful and prosperous state until it was eventually defeated by Lithuanian knights. He argues convincingly that most of the Jews in Eastern Europe descended from the Khazars, unlike the Sephardic Jews in Spain.

    As for the Palestinian nation, it was created by Britain when it split up the Ottoman Empire after WW1. My grandfather served there in the police, trying to keep the peace in the face of the Haganah and Irgun Zeumi Leumi. Now although it was a colonial creation, it was still a nation, like most of the countries in Africa and Latin America.

  • vanhelsing

    Rep Stones – I just removed the offending piece [without giving a card] as you apologised to Alias. You should know better…


  • RepublicanStones

    VH i was not referring to a particular sentence, as any anger directed at that person I feel is warranted, because i know for a fact every argument he has advanced here, i have already taken issue with previously on Slugger. I was simply apologizing to you and others for what no doubt seemed like an intemperate post on my behalf. As it happens now, my lariam addled brain (memory being a victim) I cannot recall the sentence you wielded the axe to.

  • Banjaxed

    *YOU* made the comparison between NI & Israel ‘terrorist’ bombings. I asked a follow-up question which concerned terrorism perpetrated by the Israeli army. (Or War Crimes, as I’ve seen it described). You answered it perfectly as befits your politics – by ignoring it and indulging in pure whataboutery of a heinous, sectarian crime for which there can be no justification whatever.

    Says an awful lot about your own personal politics despite your constant fulminations on terrorism all both sides in this neck of the woods.

  • Banjaxed

    Typo: last para – delete ‘all’ and substitute ‘from’. Apols.

  • RepublicanStones

    Just to add, VH i did not, nor will I, apologise to Alias. As I feel his views (previously dealt with, long before on Slugger) neither warrant, nor merit the respect with which the mannerly custom, aforementioned, are capable of earning. He may suit his words in benign intent, but i am fully aware of their effect.

  • slappymcgroundout

    “Palestinians all come from one spot on the globe…”

    Try again please.

    Were the Jews in the land at some point? And then dispersed? So careful where you go with your emotion:

    We declare the right of the people of Ireland to the ownership of Ireland, and to the unfettered control of Irish destinies, to be sovereign and indefeasible. The long usurpation of that right by a foreign people and government has not extinguished the right, nor can it ever be extinguished except by the destruction of the Irish people.

    Perhaps you might want to build another Chelmno. Let me leave you with this:

    25/06/1096 – 1st Crusade slaughter Jews of Werelinghofen Germany
    16/07/1099 – Crusaders herd Jews of Jerusalem into a synagogue and set it afire
    03/09/1189 – 30 Jews are mnassacred at King Richard I (lion hearted) coronation
    16/03/1190 – Jews of York England commit mass sucide rather than submit to baptism
    16/03/1190 – Crusades begin massacre of Jews of York England
    17/03/1190 – Crusades complete massacre of Jews of York England
    18/03/1190 – Crusaders kill 57 Jews in Bury St Edmonds England
    15/07/1205 – Pope Innocent III states Jews are doomed to perpetual servitudea and subjugation due to crucifixion of Jesus
    01/11/1210 – King John of England begins imprisoning Jews
    02/01/1235 – Emperor Joseph II orders Jews of Galicia Austria to adopt family names
    25/05/1241 – 1st attack on Jewish community of Frankfort-on-the-Main Germany
    15/04/1250 – Pope Innoncent III refuses Jews of Cordova Spain to build a synagogue
    23/07/1253 – Jews are expelled from Vienne France by order of Pope Innocent III
    05/08/1264 – Anti-Jewish riots break out in Arnstadt Germany
    09/02/1267 – Synod of Breslau orders Jews of Silesia to wear special caps
    10/05/1267 – Vienna’s church orders all Jews to wear a distinctive garb
    19/06/1269 – King Louis IX of Frances decrees all Jews must wear a badge of shame
    23/05/1275 – King Edward I of Engld orders cessation of persecution of French Jews
    10/05/1278 – Jews of England imprisoned on charges of coining
    17/11/1278 – 680 Jews arrested (293 hanged) in England for counterfeiting coins
    12/10/1285 – 180 Jews refuse baptism in Munich Germany, they are set on fire
    24/04/1288 – Jews of Yroyes France are accused of ritual murder
    12/07/1290 – Jews are expelled from England by order of King Edward I
    18/07/1290 – King Edward I of England orders expulsion of Jews
    09/10/1290 – Last of 16,000 English Jews expelled by King Edward I, leaves
    30/06/1294 – Jews are expelled from Berne Switzerland
    24/06/1298 – Rindfleish Persecutions-Jews of Ifhauben Austria massacred
    25/06/1298 – Rindfleish Persecutions-250 Jews killed in Rothenburg Germany
    23/07/1298 – Rindfleish Persecutions-Jewish community Wurzburg Germany annihilated
    23/07/1298 – Jews are massacred at Wurzburg Germany
    19/10/1298 – Rindfleish-140 Jews of Heilbron Germany are murdered
    22/07/1306 – King Phillip the Fair, orders expulsion of Jews out of France
    21/08/1321 – 160 Jews of Chincon France, burned at stake
    24/06/1322 – Jews are expelled from France for 3rd time
    21/09/1348 – Jews in Zurich Switzerland are accused of poisoning wells
    15/11/1348 – Rudolph of Oron claims Jews have confessed to poisoning wells
    09/01/1349 – 700 Jews of Basel Switzerland, burned alive in their houses
    30/01/1349 – Jews of Freilsburg Germany are massacred
    13/02/1349 – Jews are expelled from Burgsordf Switzerland
    22/02/1349 – Jews are expelled from Zurich Switzerland
    21/03/1349 – 3,000 Jews killed in Black Death riots in Efurt Germany
    22/03/1349 – Townspeople of Fulda Germany massacre Jews (blamed for black death)
    30/04/1349 – Jewish community at Radolszell Germany, exterminated
    28/05/1349 – 60 Jews murdered in Breslau Silesia
    24/08/1349 – Jews of Cologne Germany set themselves on fire to avoid baptism
    24/08/1349 – 6,000 Jews, blamed for the Plague, are killed in Mainz
    10/09/1349 – Jews who survived a massacre in Constance Germany are burned to death
    29/09/1349 – People of Krems Austria accuse Jews of poisoning wells
    01/11/1349 – Duke of Brabant orders execution of all Jews in Brussels, accusing them of poisoning the wells
    29/11/1349 – Jews of Augsburg Germany massacred
    05/12/1349 – 500 Jews of Nuremberg massacre during Black Death riots
    12/03/1350 – Orvieto city says it will behead and burn Jewish-Christian couples
    07/05/1355 – 1,200 Jews of Toledo Spain killed by Count Henry of Trastamara
    25/07/1360 – Jews are expelled from Breslau Silesia
    22/05/1370 – Jews are expelled/massacred from Brussels Belgium
    15/03/1391 – Jew hating Monk in Seville Spain stirs up people to attack Jews
    04/06/1391 – Mob led by Ferrand Martinez surounds and sets fire to Jewish quarter of Seville Spain, surviving Jews sold into slavery
    06/06/1391 – Inhabitants of Seville Spain massacres 5,000 Jews
    05/08/1391 – Jews are massacred in Toledo and Barcelona Spain
    05/08/1391 – Castilian sailors fire attack Jewish ghetto of Barcelona, 100’s killed
    24/08/1391 – Jews of Palma Majorca massacred
    17/09/1394 – Jews are expelled from France by order of King Charles VI
    03/11/1394 – Jews are expelled from France by Charles VI
    26/10/1407 – Mobs attack Jewish community of Cracow
    17/10/1415 – Jewish autonomy in Palestine ends, as Raban Gamliel leaves office
    23/05/1420 – Jews of Syria and Austria expelled
    11/05/1421 – Jews are expelled from Styria Austria
    23/05/1421 – Jews of Austria imprisoned and expelled
    06/12/1424 – Don Alfonso V of Aragon grants Barcelona the right to exclude Jews
    10/05/1427 – Jews are expelled from Berne Switzerland
    05/02/1428 – King Alfonso V, orders Sicily’s Jews to attend conversion sermons
    05/05/1430 – Jews are expelled from Speyer Germany
    03/10/1430 – Jews are expelled from Eger Bohemia
    05/10/1450 – Jews are expelled from Lower Bavaria by order of Ludwig IX
    21/09/1451 – Cardinal Nicholas of Cusa orders Jews of Holland to wear a badge
    04/07/1453 – 41 Jewish martyrs burned at stake at Breslau
    22/08/1454 – Jews are expelled from Brunn Moravia by order of King Ladislaus
    03/05/1455 – Jews flee Spain
    12/12/1479 – Jews are expelled from Schlettstadt Alsace by Emperor Frederick III
    15/11/1491 – 6 Jews and 5 Conversos accused of killing Christians in La Guardia Spain
    30/03/1492 – King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella sign decree expelling Jews from Spain
    31/03/1492 – Queen Isabella of Castilia and Ferdinand of Aragon expel Jews
    30/04/1492 – Spain announces it will expels all Jews
    02/08/1492 – Jews are expelled from Spain by King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella
    03/08/1492 – All Jews are expelled from Spain
    24/10/1492 – 24 Jews are burned at stake in Mecklenburg Germany
    15/11/1492 – In Spain, 6 Jews and 5 Conversos are accused of using black magic
    31/12/1492 – 100,000 Jews expelled from Sicily
    12/01/1493 – Last day for all Jews to leave Sicily
    09/03/1496 – Jews are expelled from Carintha Austria
    12/03/1496 – Jews are expelled from Syria
    05/12/1496 – Jews are expelled from Portugal by order of King Manuel I
    06/01/1497 – Jews are expelled from Graz (Syria)
    21/06/1498 – Jews are expelled from Nurenberg Bavaria by Emperor Maximillian
    20/04/1505 – Jews are expelled from Orange Burgandy by Philibert of Luxembourg
    22/01/1510 – Jews are expelled from Colmar Germany
    19/07/1510 – 38 Jews are burned at stake in Berlin Prussia
    01/01/1515 – Jews are expelled from Laibach Austria
    10/04/1516 – 1st ghetto, Jews are compelled to live in specific area of Venice
    20/11/1521 – Arabs attribute shortage of water in Jerusalem to Jews making wine
    09/11/1526 – Jews are expelled from Pressburg Hungary by Maria of Hapsburg
    27/05/1529 – 30 Jews of Posing Hungary, charged with blood ritual, burned at stake
    19/02/1539 – Jews of Tyrnau Hungary (then Trnava Czech), expelled
    17/07/1549 – Jews are expelled from Ghent Belgium
    02/04/1550 – Jews are expelled from Genoa Italy
    12/08/1553 – Pope Julius III orders confiscation and burning of Jewish Talmud
    02/04/1559 – Genoa Italy, expels Jews
    22/06/1559 – Jewish quarter of Prague burned and looted
    30/04/1563 – Jews are expelled from France by order of Charles VI
    30/08/1563 – Jewish community of Neutitschlin Moravia expelled
    15/06/1567 – Genoa Italy expels Jews
    20/06/1567 – Jews are expelled from Brazil by order of regent Don Henrique
    20/06/1567 – Don Henrique of Brazil, expel Jews
    08/01/1598 – Jews are expelled from Genoa Italy
    22/08/1614 – Trades people under Vincent Fettmilch chase and plunder Jews out of ghetto in Frankfurt
    01/09/1614 – Vincent Fettmich expels Jews from Frankfurt-on-Main, Germany
    24/06/1648 – Cossacks slaughter 2,000 Jews and 600 Polish Catholics in Ukraine
    22/07/1648 – 10,000 Jews of Polannoe murdered in Chmielnick massacre
    02/11/1648 – 12,000 Jews massacred by Chmielnicki hordes in Narol Podlia
    26/04/1654 – Jews are expelled from Brazil
    15/10/1655 – Jews of Lublin are massacred
    14/02/1670 – Roman Catholic emperor Leopold I chases Jews out of Vienna
    27/02/1670 – Jews expelled from Austria by order of Leopold I
    25/07/1670 – Austrian Emperor Leopold I expels 4,000 Jews from Vienna
    24/09/1683 – King Louis XIV expels all Jews from French possessions in America
    03/12/1685 – Charles II bars Jews from settling in Stockholm Sweden
    04/03/1699 – Jews are expelled from Lubeck Germany
    04/10/1712 – Utrecht banishes poor Jews
    18/07/1716 – Decree orders all Jews expelled from Brussels
    07/05/1727 – Jews are expelled from Ukraine by Empress Catherine I of Russia
    02/09/1732 – Pope Clement XII renews anti-Jewish laws of Rome
    09/12/1738 – Jews are expelled from Breslau Silesia
    01/09/1739 – 35 Jews sentenced to life in prison in Lisbon Portugal
    11/07/1740 – Jews are expelled from Little Russia by order of Czarina Anne
    01/12/1742 – Empress Elisabeth orders expulsion of all Jews from Russia
    25/11/1744 – Austrian forces pillage and kill Jews of Prague
    31/03/1745 – Jews are expelled from Prague
    18/12/1774 – Empress Maria Theresa expels Jews from Prague, Bohemia and Moravia
    22/01/1775 – Marshal Oscar von Lubomirski expels Jews from Warsaw Poland
    22/02/1775 – Jews expelled from outskirts of Warsaw Poland
    25/05/1784 – Jews are expelled from Warsaw by Marshall Mniszek
    31/03/1808 – French created Kingdom of Westphalia orders Jews to adopt family names
    20/07/1808 – Napoleon decrees all French Jews adopt family names
    17/10/1808 – Political rights of Jews suspended in Duchy of Warsaw
    05/05/1809 – Citizenship is denied to Jews of Canton of Aargau Switzerland
    06/03/1816 – Jews are expelled from Free city of Lubeck Germany
    21/11/1818 – Russia’s Czar Alexander I petitions for a Jewish state in Palestine
    26/07/1826 – Vilnus Lithuanian riots cause death of many Jews
    20/11/1829 – Jews expelled from Nikolayev and Sevastopol Russia
    15/06/1834 – Rioters in Safed Palestine kills many Jews
    25/07/1835 – Ibrahim Pasha’s army attacks Jewish settlers of Hebron Palestine
    08/07/1838 – Arabs attack Jewish community of Safed
    24/06/1843 – Vincenzo Soliva decrees no Jew can live outside of ghetto in Italy
    03/09/1852 – Anti Jewish riots break out in Stockholm
    02/10/1853 – Austrian law forbids Jews from owning land
    04/02/1855 – Soldiers shoot Jewish families in Coro, Venezuela
    27/04/1857 – Establishment of Jewish congregations in Lower Austria prohibited
    04/12/1864 – Romanian Jews are forbidden to practice law
    01/04/1881 – Anti-Jewish riots in Jerusalem
    27/04/1881 – Pogroms against Russian Jews start in Elisabethgrad
    05/05/1881 – Anit-Jewish rioting in Kiev Ukraine
    15/05/1882 – May Laws-Czar Alexander III bans Jews from living in rural Romania
    06/07/1882 – 14 Russian Jews of Bilu, arrive in Jaffa Palestine
    10/09/1882 – 1st international conference to promote anti-semitism meets Dresden Germany (Congress for Safeguarding of Non-Jewish Interests)
    23/04/1891 – Jews are expelled from Moscow Russia
    12/12/1897 – Anti-Jewish violence breaks out in Bucharest Romania
    01/10/1898 – Jews are expelled from Kiev Russia
    26/05/1905 – A pogrom against Jews in Minsk Belorussia
    29/05/1905 – Pogrom against Jewish community in Brisk Lithuania
    14/06/1906 – Pogrom against Jews in Bialystok, Polish Russia
    23/07/1906 – Pogroms against Jews in Oddessa
    23/07/1913 – Arabs attack Jewish community of Rechovot Palestine
    11/08/1914 – Mitchenick Poland, expels Jews
    11/08/1914 – Jews are expelled from Mitchenick Poland
    17/12/1914 – Jews are expelled from Tel Aviv by Turkish authorities
    01/01/1915 – Jews of Laibach Austria expelled
    28/03/1917 – Jews are expelled from Tel Aviv and Jaffa by Turkish authorities
    02/11/1917 – Balfour Declaration proclaims support for a Jewish state in Palestine
    09/03/1918 – Ukrainian mobs massacre Jews of Seredino Buda
    21/11/1918 – Polish soldiers organize a pogrom against Jews of Galicia Poland
    22/11/1918 – Polish forces attack Jewish community of Lemberg (Lvov)
    05/04/1919 – Polish Army executes 35 young Jews
    10/08/1919 – Ukrainian National Army massacres 25 Jews in Podolia Ukraine
    31/08/1919 – Petlyura’s Ukrainian Army kills 35 members of a Jewish defense group
    04/04/1920 – Arabs attack Jews in Jerusalem
    23/08/1929 – Arabs attack Jews in Israel
    24/08/1929 – Palestinians attack orthodox Jews in Jerusalem
    20/10/1930 – British White Paper restricts Jews from buying Arab land
    01/04/1933 – Nazi Germany begins persecution of Jews boycotting Jewish businesses
    26/04/1933 – Jewish students are barred from school in Germany
    10/02/1934 – 1st Jewish immigrant ship to break the English blockade in Palestine
    11/08/1935 – Nazi mass demonstration against German Jews
    15/09/1935 – Nuremberg Laws deprives German Jews of citizenship
    19/04/1936 – Anti-Jewish riots break out in Palestine
    20/04/1936 – Jews repel an Arab attack in Petach Tikvah Palestine
    05/04/1938 – Anti-Jewish riots break out in Dabrowa Poland
    07/10/1938 – Germany demands all Jewish passports stamped with letter J
    17/11/1938 – Italy passes their own version of anti-Jewish Nuremberg laws
    04/01/1939 – Hermann Goering appoints Reinhard Heydrich head of Jewish Emigration
    20/01/1939 – Hitler proclaims to German parliament to exterminate all European Jews
    30/01/1939 – Hitler calls for extermination of European Jews
    20/03/1939 – 7,000 Jews flee German occupied Memel Lithuania
    10/04/1939 – Colijn’s Dutch govt opens camp Westerbork for German Jews
    13/05/1939 – SS St Louis departs Hamburg with 937 Jews fugitives
    29/08/1939 – Chaim Weizmann informs England that Palestine Jews will fight in WW II
    19/09/1939 – Wehrmacht (German regular army) murders 100 Jews in Lukov Poland
    01/12/1939 – SS-Fuhrer Himmler begins deportation of Polish Jews
    05/06/1940 – Gov of Suriname and Neth Antilles refuse entry to Jewish refugees
    22/06/1940 – SS rounds up 31 German/Polish/Dutch Jews in Roermond Neth
    01/07/1940 – Australia refuses entry to Dutch Jewish refugees
    31/10/1940 – Deadline for Warsaw Jews to move into Warsaw Ghetto
    26/11/1940 – Nazi Germany began walling off the Jewish Ghetto in Warsaw
    09/12/1940 – Illeagal Jewish immigrants to Haifa are deported to Mauritius
    09/01/1941 – 6,000 Jews exterminated in pogrom in Bucharest Romania
    22/01/1941 – 1st mass killing of Jews in Romania
    19/02/1941 – Nazi raid Amsterdam and round up 429 young Jews for deportation
    20/02/1941 – 1st transport of Jews to concentration camps leave Plotsk Poland
    22/02/1941 – Nazi SS begin rounding up Jews of Amsterdam

    And so on. Jebus, lad, you’ve been trying to expel them for thousands of years and then you finally do that and call it a favor (owing to Holocaust) and now you wish to claim some say on how they live.

    Oh, and if you want the Stormfront approved list:

    Expulsion of Jews -Chronological order

    250: Carthage

    415: Alexandria

    554: Diocese of Clement (France)

    561: Diocese of Uzzes (France)

    612: Visigoth Spain : Visigoth Empire

    855: Italy

    876: Sens

    1012: Mayence

    1181: France

    1290: England

    1306: France

    1348: Switzerland

    1349: Hielbronn (Germany)

    1349: Hungary

    1388: Strasbourg

    1394: Germany

    1394: France

    1422: Austria

    1424: Fribourg & Zurich

    1426: Cologne

    1432: Savory

    1438: Mainz

    1439: Augsburg

    1446: Bavaria

    1453: Franconis

    1453: Breslau

    1454: Wurzburg 1485: Vincenza (Italy)

    1492: Spain

    1495: Lithuania

    1497: Portugal

    1499: Germany

    1514: Strasbourg

    1519: Regensburg

    1540: Naples

    1542: Bohemia

    1550: Genoa

    1551: Bavaria

    1555: Pesaro

    1559: Austria

    1561: Prague

    1567: Wurzburg

    1569: Papal States

    1571: Brandenburg

    1582: Netherlands

    1593: Brandenburg, Austria

    1597: Cremona, Pavia & Lodi

    1614: Frankfort

    1615: Worms

    1619: Kiev

    1649: Ukraine

    1654: Little Russia

    1656: Lithuania

    1669: Oran (North Africa)

    1670: Vienna

    1712: Sandomir

    1727: Russia

    1738: Wurtemburg

    1740: Little Russia

    1744: Bohemia

    1744: Livonia

    1745: Moravia

    1753: Kovad (Lithuania)

    1761: Bordeaux

    1772: Deported to the Pale of Settlement (Russia)

    1775: Warsaw

    1789: Alace

    1804: Villages in Russia

    1808: Villages & Countrysides (Russia)

    1815: Lubeck & Bremen

    1815: Franconia, Swabia & Bavaria

    1820: Bremes 1843: Russian Border Austria & Prussia

    1862: Area in the U.S. under Grant’s Jurisdiction

    1866: Galatz, Romania 77.

    1919: Bavaria (foreign born)

    1938-45: Nazi Controlled Areas

    As I said, you take Holocaust as justification for expelling the Jews, call it doing them a favor, and then you’ve the temerity to pontificate on their morality. And so you know, you can go back to Hadrian. Oh, and on a sidenote, if you ever wondered why the Jews aren’t all that big on things evangelical, simply consider that Theodocius III called for the death of people that converted to Judaism. So they’re doing you a favor, historically speaking,, in not trying to convert you. Was also a ban on Jews living in Jerusalem, which the Persians removed for a short while there following their conquest, but then the Byzantine Empire did some re-conquering and the ban was back in effect.Then came the Arabs, who rules the land from Damascus, Baghad or Cairo. And their return to Israel wasn’t after WWII. More than a few Jews settled in the Galilee following their expulsion from Spain. And get the immigration thing right:

    Demographer U.O. Schmelz’s analysis of the Ottoman registration data for 1905 populations of Jerusalem and Hebron kazas (Ottoman districts), by place of birth, showed that of those Arab Palestinians born outside their localities of residence, approximately half represented intra-Palestine movement—from areas of low-level economic activity to areas of higher-level activity—while the other half represented Arab immigration into Palestine itself, 43 percent originating in Asia, 39 percent in Africa, and 20 percent in Turkey.[18] Schmelz conjectured:

    The above-average population growth of the Arab villages around the city of Jerusalem, with its Jewish majority, continued until the end of the mandatory period. This must have been due—as elsewhere in Palestine under similar conditions—to in-migrants attracted by economic opportunities, and to the beneficial effects of improved health services in reducing mortality—just as happened in other parts of Palestine around cities with a large Jewish population sector.[19]
    The 1935 British report to the League of Nations noted that:

    One thousand five hundred and fifty-seven persons (including 565 Jews) who, having made their way into the country surreptitiously, were later detected, were sentenced to imprisonment for their offence and recommended for deportation.[26]

    Lastly, observe what is in front of your every eyes. What is the definition of a Palestinian refugee?

    A Palestinian refugee is a person whose normal residence was Palestine for a minimum of two years preceding the conflict in 1948, and who, as a result of this conflict, lost both his home and his means of livelihood and took refuge in one of the countries where UNRWA provides relief. Refugees within this definition and the direct descendants of such refugees are eligible for Agency assistance if they are: registered with UNRWA; living in the area of UNRWA operations; and in need.

    If you and I had been living there from May ’46 through June ’48, we’d be refugees too.

    And for how unArab your line of thought, you have to think Jewish to see the place with the boundaries of Israel as Judea and Samaria. The Jordanians didn’t and so they didn’t bother setting up a Palestinian state when they ruled the West Bank from end of War of Independence until Six Day War. Jordan was also part of the British Mandate of Palestine and so is part of “Palestine”, thus, contrary to the absurd thought process, the Arabs actually did rather well in terms of who got what of British Mandate of Palestine. And now insane, truly, is your view, your friends who you emote over keep their kith and kin locked up in those camps. It isn’t Israel. Remember Israel only came into possession during Six Day War. Nope, your Palestinian friends have a mantra, locked up in the camps or else living in Israel. And for how fucked up the UN and your friends are:

    1. Reaffirms the right of the displaced inhabitants to return to their homes AND CAMPS in the territories occupied by Israel since 1967;

    2. Deplores the continued refusal of the Israeli authorities to take steps for the return of the displaced inhabitants;

    3. Calls once more upon Israel:

    (a) To take immediate steps for the return of the displaced inhabitants;

    (b) To desist from all measures that obstruct the return of the displaced inhabitants, including measures affecting the physical and demographic structure of the occupied territories;

    Measures affecting the demographic structure, and the right to return to those camps, you mean like resettling the camp inhabitants in more normal homes on the West Bank but we can’t have that so they must go back to the camps? Exactly.

    Which we see here in this other piece of UN General Assembly insanity:

    1. Calls once more upon Israel to desist from removal and resettlement of Palestinian refugees in the Gaza Strip and from destruction of their shelters;

    Yeah, and so Gaza is an open air prison. Thanks to Arafat & Co and the UN, as the Israelis were settling some in the West Bank. But some can’t have that, since if they did, the resettled might actually grow fond of their homes and the date trees out back and so not really care about any more return and you loons can find your child suicide bombers from your own children and not ours ’cause we like our new homes and the date trees out back.

  • lamhdearg

    the love in is due to be put on hold when ourweecountry plays the zionist entity, in the 2014 world cup qualification.

  • lamhdearg

  • Alias

    “Just to add, VH i did not, nor will I, apologise to Alias. As I feel his views (previously dealt with, long before on Slugger) neither warrant, nor merit

    the respect with which the mannerly custom, aforementioned, are capable of earning. He may suit his words in benign intent, but i am fully aware of their

    effect.” – RepublicanStones

    That’s okay, but just be careful that mumsie doesn’t complain about all that wailing, weeping and gnashing of teeth coming from yourher little keyboard warrior’s bedroom…

    Now let’s get back to the facts rather than your emotional imaginings, In 1920 when the British took control of the territory from the Ottoman Turks there were less than 10,000 Muslim Arabs in it. In 1914, the population was 40,000 Jews, 10,900 Christian Arabs, and a mere 8,000 Muslim Arabs (Jerusalem: Illustrated History Atlas by Martin Gilbert). There were, of course, no Palestinians since that is a word that was invented by the British. By 1940, the number of Muslim Arabs had spiked to 40,000. These were economic immigrants who came in search of employment created by the British and Muslims who came out of a religious duty stipulated in the Quran that compels Muslims to seize land from non-Muslims.

    ‘Palestinians’ – an entirely bogus nation – have no Palestinian language, culture, art, science, literature or any other hallmark of nation to unite them, just as they had no historical homeland to unite them. The reason for that is simply that the ‘nation’ is entirely ficticious, being comprised of other Muslim Arab nations from which those now designated as ‘Palestinian’ actually belong.

    They have grown from less than 8,000 to over 4 million in less than a century not because of an extraordinary feat of breeding but simply because those other Arab nations make up their numbers. They only exist because of UN and other subsidies that attract them but also, ironically, because Israel has created millions of jobs in the region that did not exist before its creation.

    These Muslim Arabs, of course, already have a validated right to self-determination as members of the various nations that they originated from.

    Now, to come back to the invalid parallel between the Catholics in NI and the so-called ‘Palestinians.’ The Catholics in NI have signed up to the two-state solution and have constitutionally implemented it. That means that the Catholics have accepted that they have no right to self-determination as members of the Irish nation, whereas the Palestinians have not accepted that they should be subject to the veto of another nation. There ends the parallel, so that ceased to exist after the GFA.

  • Limerick

    “We declare the right of the people of Ireland to the ownership of Ireland, and to the unfettered control of Irish destinies, to be sovereign and indefeasible. The long usurpation of that right by a foreign people and government has not extinguished the right, nor can it ever be extinguished except by the destruction of the Irish people.”

    Bully for you. How long do Protestants have to live here before they cease to be recognised as a ‘foreign people’?

  • RepublicanStones

    Were the Jews in the land at some point? And then dispersed? So careful where you go with your emotion:

    Slappy, allow me to indulge the idiocy of your beliefs. A couple of things. First, the idea of the biblical exile of Jews from the holy land, is just that, a story. With regards to educated academics/archaeologists…it remains the fairytale it so clearly is. Now Slappy, i’d really love you to rebutt me with the evidence you have that stipulates the Bible as fact….

    Perhaps you might want to build another Chelmno. Let me leave you with this:

    Leave me with nowt Slappy, i have studied and encountered ever single little argument the Zionist project has to offer. Your attempt to portray the land of Palestine as ’empty’ or thereabouts, is unfortunately undone by simple recognition of the facts. Like how before the creation of Israel, the indigenous Arabs accounted for approx 90% of the agricultural produce of Palestine. Now you little bigot….tell me im wrong, I implore you….

    As I said, you take Holocaust as justification for expelling the Jews

    Please i want proof of any one single person, one commenter, doesn’t even have to be a contributor, any single Slugger soul, who has ever advocated that which your sick little infantile mind has deemed appropriate…

  • RepublicanStones

    And for how unArab your line of thought, you have to think Jewish to see the place with the boundaries of Israel as Judea and Samaria

    Aside from actually undermining your own argument, i thank you, for illustrating the idiocy of modern thought upon antiquated mentality. You, have demonstrated a perfect example of both…

  • RepublicanStones

    The Jordanians didn’t and so they didn’t bother setting up a Palestinian state when they ruled the West Bank from end of War of Independence until Six Day War

    Tell me why should the Jordanians have set up a Palestinian nation during the 6 day war? it matters not a jot what one govt did or did not do, why do you think it does……?

  • RepublicanStones

    That’s okay, but just be careful that mumsie doesn’t complain about all that wailing, weeping and gnashing of teeth coming from yourher little keyboard warrior’s bedroom…

    Alias, your sick little mentality means little to me, but i have seen the import of its reality. I need not have your sick little ideology’s justification to know, how destructive you and your kind can be.

    The fact you cite Martin Gilbert, and claim there were just 10,000 muslim arabs (again emphasizing the religious aspect of a colonial/land conflict) And for any scholar who has studied the conflict, Gilbert is not a serious footnote.

    You yet again ALIAS YET again, FOR THE UMPTEENTH TIME you come out with this nonsense… There were, of course, no Palestinians since that is a word that was invented by the British.

    Aside from being an outright lie (one i have corrected you on several times here on Slugger) The word ‘Palestine’or its etymological touchstones, has existed since long before the idea of an Englishman, or a Briton, or an Irishman. I continue to ask you, why even after every single claim you try to make, that you, incorrectly, think invalidates the Palestinian peoples right to their own land, why do you insist on making long debunked arguments? WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY ?

  • RepublicanStones

    By the way Slappy, i wanna know, if you have any evidence that Jordan was going to expel the non-muslim inhabitants of the west bank and establish its own ethnocracy. Because until you have, your pathetic little argument is laughable, for the reasons it so clearly is…please do continue….

  • RepublicanStones

    ‘Palestinians’ – an entirely bogus nation – have no Palestinian language, culture, art, science, literature or any other hallmark of nation to unite them, just as they had no historical homeland to unite them.

    Alias everyone can now see how unserious you are with this issue. The entire idea of a nation is man-made. As explained to you earlier. The Palestinians, as explained to you earlier, but for some unexplained reason you chose to ignore, actually fit the concept of a nation state, of a race, better than world Jewry does. I will now go into caps because Alias seems incapable of learning. WORLD JEWRY DOES NOT CONSTITUTE A RACE OR NATION, INFACT THE PALESTINIANS ACTUALLY ARE CLOSER TO THE CONCEPT THAN WORLD JEWRY. Caps lock off, learn to accept reality Alias, i am not going to allow you to use tragedy in jewish history to obscure horrors committed by Zionists. No matter how much you infer, it isn’t going to wash. I know your arguments inside and out. hey disgust me, as does your ideology.

  • RepublicanStones

    Does anyone else notice how Alias is still propagating the concept of nation/race/people to deny the Palestinians their own land

    The reason for that is simply that the ‘nation’ is entirely ficticious,

    I know for a fact i have corrected him several times here on Slugger that the idea of nation/race is a man-made concept. Yet he still propagates this myth. Why after being informed of the reality of the genesis of nation/race/state does he continue with long debunked myth making? One has to ask?

  • RepublicanStones

    I believe it is high time Slugger issues penalties for intellectual dishonesty. Alias has been corrected several times on his colonialist views, yet still engages in that which is long debunked. Are we supposed to accept this continued intellectual dishonesty????????

  • RepublicanStones

    BTW i want to ask Slappy this, as a pagan, do i have the right to ownership of the land now occupied by jesus freaks (Chrsitians) simply because my faith predates theirs?

  • RepublicanStones

    For anybody who doubts the paucity of Alias’ manner please see here, one other Slugger thread, where every little pathetic argument he attempted to advance here, was shown to be the sick crap it so clearly is and ask yourself, wahy, even after being refuted, he decided to propagate lies…

  • oracle


    That’s a very long list you came up with did you cut and paste it from the Jewish equivalent of the Goebbels gazette?

    They did receive fair trials for coining and were found guilty it was a regular offence by many people not just Jews and they were all hanged for it, even 6 year old girls living in the house were clipping (nipping edges of silver of coins) was being performed by non Jewish people were hanged so knock that nonsense off your list for a start.

    They did poison wells then charge people a premium to use their wells to water livestock it’s a trait that seems to have stuck with them were they salt wells belonging to Palestinians..

    But answer me this Slappy because I really need an answer….. Why do you think it is that almost every county in Europe seem to have persecuted the Jews at one time or another?
    Don’t you think it strange that only Jews seem to have suffered this bizarre group punishment down through the ages while other groups haven’t?

    What are they doing that other peoples don’t?

  • slappymcgroundout : 3 September 2011 at 11:00 pm has set out a litany of the history of persecution of the Jews by Christians and Christian States and has been attacked by subsequent commenters.

    Despite those criticisms, Slappy has raised an issue which does concern this post. How do you square up Protestant theological solidarity with Israel and the persecution of the Jews by Christians?

    The root of that persecution is in the bible itself. In 1995, the Dutch Council of Bishops declared that there was a path which led from the Bible to Auschwitz. You can see that quite clearly in the story of the Passion with the Jews presented as the bloodthirsty zealots and the Romans, including Pilot, being presented as the reasonable dispensers of Justice. The received wisdom of some modern bible scholars is that the origins of much of this story may have its roots in the Jewish wars towards the end of the 1st century AD. The story of the Passion is said to be largely made up, being inconsistent with Roman dispensation of justice and what is known of the historical governance of Judea by Pilot.

    Of course, there are a number of Protestant leaders who have tended to be anti-semetic (the Rev. Jesse Jackson, for example). This leads me to believe that “parallelism” has more to do with Irish Protestant affinity to Israel than theology.

    All of this adds to the mystery surrounding the affinity between Orange Protestantism and Israel.

  • HeinzGuderian

    But answer me this Slappy because I really need an answer….. Why do you think it is that almost every county in Europe seem to have persecuted the Jews at one time or another?
    Don’t you think it strange that only Jews seem to have suffered this bizarre group punishment down through the ages while other groups haven’t?


    The catholic church,down through the ages has persecuted the Jewish People at every turn.

    What Sloppy left off his list is who allowed the Jews back into Britain in the 17th Century ?
    Non other than the Lt. General Himself !!

    The question is not the ‘affinity between orange (?) protestantism and Israel. The question is the catholic churches persecution of a people,continued,even today,by out nat/rep chums.

    Catch a grip people. It is time it stopped.

  • RepublicanStones

    Oracle, cut the shit. The treatment of Jews down through the ages is a reflection of the societies they lived in, not a reflection of themselves.

    Wise up.

  • Greenflag

    oracle ,

    ‘Don’t you think it strange that only Jews seem to have suffered this bizarre group punishment down through the ages while other groups haven’t?’

    What do you mean other groups did’nt suffer punishment ?
    During the Middle ages the Church ( the one true one of course ) was very much the dominant force within European society which, although national identities were being formed , still exerted a pan european influence on matters of faith and religion and on the aristocracies that held the temporal power . The jewish people did not conform to the more usual ‘heretical ‘ format like say the albigensians or many others who ended up also being massacred and staked for ‘erroneous ‘ beliefs .

    As to what they were doing that other’s were’nt ? The European wide ‘Penal Laws ‘ prevented them from owning land or becoming the serf of a feudal overlord nor could they join any army and thus by dint of necessity they were ‘diverted’ into all those activities i.e the new emerging economy of the times that the then feudal aristocrats were too fat and lazy to bother with and anyway it was a mortaler to lend money at interest for any Christian and a sure path to eternal damnation which was a very real fear for people of the time them being very superstitious and not at all like the people today that one finds in churches and bethels up and down the island of Ireland and elsewhere .

    Although Slappy’s list seems very thorough as regards the sufferings of jewish people throughout European history -I’m sure a similar list could be drawn up for many of the christian faith of the times from the slaughter of english in the north under William the Conqueror to Cromwell’s attempted genocides in Ireland to the estimated 7 million deaths in the wars of religion in Germany and central europe between Lutherans/Protestants and Catholics and then there was the Spanish Inquisition etc etc etc . Add it all up over a thousand years and the sum total would dwarf the mid 20th century holocaust of Europe’s Jews by several factors .

    Christ himself a jew said ‘love your neighbour and do good to them that persecute and calumniate you’

    I guess he missed out in his overall analysis of human nature eh at least to judge by the actions of many of his leading followers through the ages .

    And of course the shite goes on today still in the Middle East with Islamic and Judaic nut cases who are all convinced that ‘God ‘ is on their side and that no matter what happens in the world God will always bless the USA but not East Timor or Ballymena .

    Karl Marx’s analysis of religion being the opium of the people was’nt far wrong just as his analysis of capitalism which for 50 years or so seemed so out of date -now seems to be a good deal more accurate than a decades worth of our modern day neo conservative crazies and the tamed left .

  • Greenflag

    I note Slappy omitted in his listing the only ‘jewish ‘pogrom in Irish history namely the 1904 Limerick mob’s assault on it’s tiny jewish community (130) who were forced to flee the city with many ending up in Cork and being rehoused by a more enlightened city corporation.

    The eh ‘christ killers ‘ were found guilty of lending money at lower interest rates than local Catholic moneylenders so in the best traditions of Catholic ‘capitalism ‘ they had to be outsourced from the eh ‘free market ‘. And when they were gone why the local priest’s money lending relatives could get back their ‘market ‘control .

    Not a whole lot different from what today’s banks are doing except of course in degree and the banks use elected politicians instead of thugs on the streets 🙁

  • oracle


    Thanks for having the intelligence to understand where the question was leading and replying.
    Exactly what the thrust of my point is, that to make an index of hardship from across Europe against a particular religion or belief is silly because absolutely any group of peoples could do likewise.

    It was the Middle Ages were injustice was a daily occurrence so to draw up a list of 200 incidents over 850 years from an entire continent is no great shakes at all.

    The aboriginal people of Australia could surpass that list without batting an eye.
    The African people with even less effort
    The native American !!!!

    Why Jews should be granted or expect to be granted extra sympathy above and beyond other victims of barbarous acts is only forming a hierarchy of victim-hood.

    Republican stones,

    Try standing on a chair that way less will go right over the top of your head okay!

  • vanhelsing

    Don’t agree. I’m not into lists of victim hood but most reasoned observers it agree that the Jews were persecuted above and beyond most other races. Of course David Irving would welcome your comments.

    Leaving aside persecution over the second half of the millennium [which is clearly in dispute] no other nation or race were subjected to extermination on such a mass scale, of course this happened just 70 years ago. The pogrom which Hitler [oops Godwins rule broken after 59 posts] instigated has been unequaled in history.

    Yes Stalin and Mao Zedong [two great communist leaders] did murder many people but not usually because of race or religion.

    Your list is right [and dreadful things were done to these people] however none of them suffered the same way the Jews did.

    Jews began fleeing Russia after persecution in the early twenties. By the 1930s they were fleeing an increasing fascist Europe to Palestine about 250,000 by 1939. The Brits were responsible for the mess during the 1940’s. These facts I would assume are not in dispute.

    Blame the UN in 1947 for the partition plan – not the Jews!

  • oracle

    Hi Vanhels,

    Mao and Stalin were two leaders they were not “Great”
    Also in china some nutter professed himself as a relation of Christ and 20-25 million died how’s that for religious genocide?

    Please don’t ever suggest that Jews suffered a fate equal what the Native American Indian endured let alone surpass it, that would just be barefaced nonsense.

  • oracle


    You’re absolutely correct about Britain being a main culprit of the present mess although not the sole one

  • vanhelsing

    The treatment of the Native American Indians was shameful. Especially as many served in the Union army hoping that they would be recognised after the war. The Union then completely screwed them. As I recall the guy who wrote the surrender documents was a Native American Gen RE Lee smiled and said to him at Appomattox ‘it’s good to see as one real American here’

    Anyway at least we share that belief.

    I guess the distinction would be that the Native Americans were not exterminated such numbers in concentration camps. I couldn’t find the figures on the net though..

    Don’t want to lead off topic though.

  • Greenflag

    @ oracle .

    that to make an index of hardship from across Europe against a particular religion or belief is silly because absolutely any group of peoples could do likewise.

    I agree up to a point . Historically and in the popular press the millions of poles , russians , germans and irish etc don’t seem to get as much ‘attention ‘ as holocaust victims although at least for russians and poles their suffering was contemporaneous and even later in time than that of the european jews . Why this should be so is a matter for those who ‘make ‘ the news.

    ‘The aboriginal people of Australia could surpass that list without batting an eye.’

    I have on my bookshelf somewhere a report on how the Australian aborigines were treated and yes was just another in a long list of european ‘erasures ‘ of those who differed from them by race , religion or culture . At the same time many australian aborigines did not survive the european advances simply because they had never been exposed to the european ‘diseases ‘ such as measles , smallpox and the other associated ills to which europeans had become relatively immune . The australian aborigines had been isolated from contact with other peoples for over 10,000 years .

    ‘The African people with even less effort’

    The Africans unlike other peoples were more resistant to european diseases and thus not only survived european incursions and despite even the ‘export’ of some 20 million africans to the new world on portuguese and british slavers the africans were so well adapted to their environment that they survived in the colonial era in greater numbers than their european colonisers.

    The native American !!!!

    Again here most of the deaths of ‘native americans ‘ were due to contact with european diseases it’s estimated that some 95% of the millions who died -did so as a result of infectious diseases carried by europeans to which they had no immunity and to which very few had any natural resistance .

    Despite my comments above I do believe that the ‘holocaust ‘ is a special case -not so much in the overall numbers but in the particular historical and political and economic circumstances in which it took place and ironically because of it’s relevance to today’s uncertain world .

    Germany was and had been a developed economy with probably the highest standard of general and technical education in the world at the time . It had survived the WWI end of Empire and it’s economy was recovering as late as 1928 . The Nazis received a derisory 2% of the national vote in the 1928 election . German jews were the most assimilated jews in Europe with 25% marrying out of the faith . As a population about half a million they made up much less than 1% of the total yet they had a huge influence in the arts , sciences , business, education and tens of thousands had served the Empire loyally in the First World War .

    And then came the 1929 Wall St crash with the German economy suffering even worse than the American and then as the traditional German ruling class were clueless as to how to extricate the economy from it’s seeming terminal decline and as the German communists were becoming increasingly seen as an alternative to failed ‘capitalism ‘ the German nazis came to be seen as the only ‘strong ‘ party that could fix Germany’s problems at least from the point of view of the newly poor former German lower middle classes and non communist working classes.

    We know from our history that Ireland’s ‘famine ‘ was allowed to laissez faire it’s way to a million deaths amd a million emigrants and likewise the great Indian famine claimed 27 million deaths while trade ‘boomed ‘ between other parts of India and imperial Britain but for all that neither famines can be directly linked to British ‘genocidal ‘ intent . Bloody minded hypocrisy , stupidity and inhuman ideology -yes . However the nazi ‘holocaust ‘ was planned , directed and executed in a manner which had never before been seen in history and what’s more on the citizens of it’s own state .

    Of course jews were not the only victims – gypsys , homosexuals , communists , down’s syndrome , mental retards , malcontents and anybody who got in the regimes way ended up against a wall or in a concentration camp.

    We live in a world at least in the west where the remaining ‘bougeoisie ‘ are being lined for a mass economic culling by the forces of financial capitalism . Already we see in many european countries ‘reaction’ against ‘immigrants ‘m who have taken our jobs etc etc and who work for less . We see the gouging out of the American middle class and the increasing wealth disparities between the top 5% and everyone else and such is the nature of the present economy that those trends are increasing in their intensity and there seems to be nothing that democratically elected politicians can do to reverse or modify the trend and in particular in anglophone countries .

    Eventually of course this cannot continue for human nature being what it is will always revert to type and when the crap eventually hits the fan and our ‘experts ‘ are seen to fail one wonders just who will be the next ‘scapegoats ‘ made to pay for our ‘rulers’ failure ?

    As you can see it’s already clearly obvious from much of the current UK and USA’s austerity measures – the lower middle and working classes and the weakest -as always .

    As to when the latter groups decide to fight back and who they will pick as their scapegoat that’s for another time .

  • between the bridges

    VH. Re the P.P (Parallelists Prods!!) maybe it’s a case of the enemy of my enemy is my friend….
    In the summer of 1926 the IRA launched a campaign to rid Dublin of the scourge of moneylenders. The IRA was forced to defend these activities against accusations of sectarianism, they insisted that it was in the interests of the poor of the city and was in no way anti-Semitic…..

  • JR

    Personally I think we have enough problems of our own without having to import them from the middle east.

  • Greenflag

    @ van helsing ,

    ‘Jews began fleeing Russia after persecution in the early twenties.’

    Russian and other eastern european jews had been fleeing periodically from that part of the world westward for a couple of centuries . After Napoleon’s conquest of ‘Germany ‘ and the enabling of legislation which ‘removed’ discriminatory laws and practices against jewish people -Germany became a kind of magnet for persecuted jews and later in the 1890’s the USA also, and to lesser extents Great Britain and France . Many Russian jews not surprisingly became communists and took part in the Russian revolution and many became leaders in the new Soviet Union which for all it’s later ‘horrors’ was an improvement for the vast majority of Russians who had been feudal serfs for a thousand years .

    Not surprisingly the new ‘jewish’ refugees fleeing the Tsar and Poland in the late 19th century were not always welcomed by their co religionists in Germany who tended to view them as uneducated peasants and rustics etc etc .

    And that’s a phenomenon which of course human nature being what it is -was and is not restricted to only those of the jewish faith .

    ‘The treatment of the Native American Indians was shameful. Especially as many served in the Union army hoping that they would be recognised after the war. The Union then completely screwed them.’

    I could paraphrase your comment above with

    ‘The treatment of the Irish Home Rulers was shameful. Especially as many served and volunteered in the British Army during WWI having been promised that their political demand would be recognised after the war.’

    It was eventually in part but not until the Empire had exerted as much terror and destruction as it could to get the ‘Irish’ to change their minds . And only when it became clear through the general boycott of the then British Administration and the failure of the Black and Tan terror campaign -did the Empire pack up and leave maybe to return another day .

  • vanhelsing


    Yes I actually thought about using that, apparently arabic proverb, in the original post but in reflection I didn’t consider the Unionists and Israelis to be enemy enough in the first context. It’s a good and salient point though:)

  • Rory Carr

    Seymour Major,

    I do believe that if you are going to make a serious charge of anti-semitism against Rev Jesse Jackson then you might at least offer some evidence to support such a charge.

    I offer below evidence which would suggest otherwise:

  • Mainland Ulsterman

    I agree with van Helsing, it’s more about parallelism (good word) than anything else. It takes a while for the mist to clear and to realise that you don’t always have to make your enemy’s enemy your friend. (Something the IRA ought to have thought about when they hooked up with the Nazis in Plan Kathleen – but didn’t. Deary me, that was a howler)

  • Limerick

    “the failure of the Black and Tan terror campaign”


    One for another thread perhaps, but that is an exceptionally lazy reading the history of the period.

  • pauluk

    Vanhelsing, I think your assessment ‘that more Unionists fall into the ‘parallelists’ camp than any other’ is basically correct.

    Northern Ireland’s ‘evangelical bible thumping Prods’, as you so endearingly call them, are mostly amillennial in their eschatology, which, from a theological viewpoint, would inspire little interest in the religious ramifications of the existence of the modern state of Israel.

    Most Northern Irish unionists can identify with Israelis as they suffer from the barbaric actions of close associates of Irish Republican terrorists. Hence the empathetic bond between the victims of Palestinian terrorism and the victims of Irish Republican terrorism.

  • pauluk

    Just glanced at a few of the comments above and noticed Jesse Jackson being mentioned.

    I don’t know of he is an anti-Semite or not, but he and his buddies, Sharpton and Obama’s pastor, are certainly not averse to using derogatory anti-Jewish terminology like ‘Hymie Town’. (google it)

    Of course if a white person were to use the expression, he would be called a racist, but the PC folks do not allow for the possibility of a black person being racist, so Jackson gets a free pass.

  • vanhelsing


    I’m no expert in theology, as I’ve admitted to, but I think that the “evangelical bible thumping Prods”[which btw are not my words but quoted from another – dodrade] are actually Premillennialist. I’m not 100% sure about this but that’s what I remember!

    I completely concur with your other comments and thanks for contributing to the debate.

  • RepublicanStones

    Sorry for my tardy reply, the wilds of kildare had me for the week. Apologies to oracle. I thought he was inferring something which he was not.

    I also agree with both Oracle and Greenflag in the apparent pedestal that jewish suffering has been placed. When Jewish history is discussed, many folks tend to cringe, and get uncomfortable. As if an honest examination of history is for some reason taboo. It is arguable that the people who suffered the most during the holocaust were the Romany. Or as it is known in their culture, ‘The Porajmos’ (which i think translates as ‘the devouring). IIRC the German govt also has never paid war reparations to the Romany people. One of the fiercest exponents of this ‘uniqueness doctrine’ of Jewish suffering is Elie Wiesel. Who attempted to have the Holocaust Museum in the states commemorate Jews alone. Wiesel has written “As always, they began with the jews…as always they did not stop with the jews alone.” – Ignoring that they first came for the communists, and also that the handicapped were the first victims of Nazi total elimination policy.
    Another interesting facet of history is that some of the pogroms routinely described as being against Jews, were actually peasant revolts against the moneylending/bailiff class. Which was very often filled with Jews, because for some reason, anti-jewish decrees from various kings and rulers had banned Jews from employment in anything but usury/tax collecting etc. But it was anti-jewish laws which put them in the position of being the object of anger for the in many cases, less well off peasant populace, in the lands in which they lived. A catch 22 if ever there was one. None of this should obscure the fact that throughout history Jews have suffered horribly. But suffering should not exempt the hagiographic tendencies of some historians from being critiqued.

    Hence the empathetic bond between the victims of Palestinian terrorism and the victims of Irish Republican terrorism.

    And not a word about the causes of that terrorism. Cause and effect not a strong point with you?

  • lamhdearg2

    Maybe i am a little bit sensitive, but this report from todays bbc web news seems to be worded with a pro zionist entity flavor.

    “Israeli air strikes on Gaza have killed at least 10 Palestinians including a senior Palestinian militant leader.

    Zohair al-Qaisi, secretary general of the Popular Resistance Committees (PRC), was attacked because he was planning an attack, the Israelis said.

    Another militant was killed with him. The Islamist Hamas movement which runs Gaza said at least eight more died in later Israeli air strikes.

    The Israeli military said dozens of rockets were fired into Israel.

    A spokeswoman said the rocket attacks had injured at least four people, one seriously. Some of the rockets had been intercepted by Israel’s “Iron Dome” anti-missile system, she added.

    The rockets were apparently fired in retaliation for the killing of the PRC leaders.”

    A simple enough test to see where Your sympathies lie, is do You see the subtle difference in how the actions and subsequent statements of each side are being reported.