It’s not Jerusalem, its Yerushalayim…

Last Saturday was my annual pilgrimage to the Maiden City to commemorate the Relief of Derry. Personally I have never been one of those Unionists who got overly hung up on the interchangeable use of the words Derry and Londonderry. I’ve been a member of the Apprentice Boys of Derry for 20 years this very month, and for as long as I can remember Saturday has always been ‘Derry Day’ to myself, my family, my friends and basically everyone I know. There are other reasons to justify my personal general lack of annoyance, for example in 1913 the Ulster Volunteer Force in the area had no problem organising its 4 Battalions of over 3000 men under the moniker of the City of Derry Regiment (though incidentally elsewhere in the County it was the North Londonderry Regiment and South Londonderry Regiment).

But then it’s easy for me to not feel emotively affected by the change of a name when I live over 80 miles away! It isn’t my school being renamed for example. For those in the City who feel their family and cultural history is being rewritten, there are a whole different set of emotions.

I noted this morning with interest a very relevant piece in the Middle East section of the BBC news portal on the use of place names as weapons. A piece that bears a striking amount of similarities to the ‘Stroke City’ issue. Yolande Knell opens with a tale of her plane trip to Israel from Dublin, and being asked by a Jewish-Israeli boy where she was going, she answered Jerusalem. She was told in no uncertain terms that it wasn’t Jerusalem, “it’s Yerushalayim.” Yolande’s piece outlines the ongoing political battle being waged over place names in Israel, making the observation that:

the struggle to control the historical narrative is played out most tangibly in language

Yolande explains how there is a major dispute currently ongoing in Israel, where there is a campaign by rightist Jews to ‘Judaise’ ALL place names. In turn, and in a sentiment remarkably similar to one shared by the Maiden City’s Protestant population, Palestinians in turn believe the tactic is simply an attempt to “erase” them.

Palestine activist Huda Iman states in a quote that could be taken from the mouth of many a Fountain resident:

it’s destroying any trust. They’re erasing all traces of Palestinian identity.”

Just substitute Palestinian with Protestant or Unionist…

, ,

  • Neil

    For those in the City who feel their family and cultural history is being rewritten

    You can understand the Catholic majority in Derry’s annoyance at exactly-the-same-in-reverse from the historical Unionist overlords of the gerrymandered city presumably?

  • ayeYerMa

    Derry is an informal shortened contraction of Londonderry à la Carrick being short for Carrickfergus and Ards for Newtownards – I don’t think Unionists ever disagreed with that.

    The only ones making an issues are the “Brits out” brigade who (with a clear ignorance on the origins of the city’) insist “Derry not Londonderry”. Any Unionist outrage is merely towards this element.

    Also PC dogooders writing things like “Londonderry/Derry” on places where official names should be used such as maps are also the ones reducing this down to a sectarian issue when it should not be so.

  • Scáth Shéamais

    Where’s Doire in all of this?

  • TwilightoftheProds

    Scáth Shéamais –

    Doire – Approximately 2600 miles north north west of Al Quds…

    [-tumbleweed rolls past, coyote howls in distance]

    Cyprus and what was once Yugoslavia must be coming down with these stroke cities….any holiday tales of stern looks from natives when using the wrong term on holiday?

  • Micheál

    ayeYerMa

    The Government of Ireland and, for that matter, the Irish media will only refer to the city and the county as Derry (or Doire in Irish).

    Surely you’re not suggesting that the Irish government and Irish society in general are all part of the “Brits out” brigade or have a clear ignorance on the origins of the city?

    On second thoughts, surely you’re not suggesting that the Irish government and Irish society in general have a clear ignorance on the origins of the city?

  • JR

    I personally don’t think it is a great analogy Given the Arab name “al-Quds” is nothing at all like the Jewish name.

    Another major difference is that prior to the foundation of the state of Israel, The jewish settlers who claim the holy land actually only controlled the area for about 30years nearly 3000 years ago. That is if you are to take a historical rather than Biblical view of things.

    A better analogy in my view would be Britain giving Southern Scotland to the Scientologists because according to them they were the decendants of king Arthur and the knights of the round table. Then Aberdeen Edinburgh have it’s name changed to Camelot. While all the Scots get their land confiscated and given the Mull of Kintire to live on.

  • grandimarkey

    “Just substitute Palestinian with Protestant or Unionist”

    Something doesn’t seem right here…

  • Drumlins Rock

    This issues is alive in virtually every country on earth, I am sure some English areas still argue about using the Anglo Saxon or Norman name, with regards our main debate maybe it is about time a commission of some sort was set up to decide the Derry/Londonderry issue? surely some sort of compromise is possible.
    More concerning to me is the trend for “translating” names into Irish, I was going to post a thread on this once, I love the traditional townland names, and have gained some knowledge of Irish from learning their likely meaning, I say likely, because many of them are obscure at best and unknown at worst, which keeps an element of mystery, however we are increasingly see Irish versions of these names based on one possible origin and little historic evidence it was ever the original name. Even worse is the ethnic cleansing of the names, with the Plantation names being wiped out completely and a translation (probably mistranslation) of a nearby townland substituted, even though that name was never ever applied to the settlement.
    I don’t believe in wiping out any of the history of this country, but an element of restoring some things lost as well as new developments should be woven into what we all know and love.
    To finish, Canada shares this bilingual conflict in some areas, the strangest one I think is Nova Scotia, where instead of accepting the Latin name the French call it Nouvelle Ecosse, why not just accept the latin root common to both languages?

  • grandimarkey

    Londondoire?

  • Eddie (Eamonn) Mac Bhloscaidh

    Drumlin’s rock.

    Not a word of what you have said is true.

    But interesting in that you clearly believe it, a celebration of ignorance.

  • Neil

    maybe it is about time a commission of some sort was set up to decide the Derry/Londonderry issue? surely some sort of compromise is possible.

    Well one could allow the majority to make the decision, but that hasn’t been Unionist form in Derry. It would be some kind of cultural bullying to force a name on the city through a majority vote, quite unlike the way the minority forced it on the majority by gerrymandering the city to fit their interests.

    Put it to a vote, simple.

  • galloglaigh

    “Derry is an informal shortened contraction of Londonderry à la Carrick being short for Carrickfergus and Ards for Newtownards – I don’t think Unionists ever disagreed with that”

    I often laugh at the ignorance of this contributor. The city, one of the first Christian settlements in Europe, was named Doire, or Derry (phonetically translated to English) for 1100 years, before it was renamed Londonderry. To say that Derry is, as Carrick is, a shortened term for Londonderry, shows a clear ignorance on the origins of the city. Any nationalist outrage is merely towards this element.

  • Cyprus and what was once Yugoslavia must be coming down with these stroke cities….any holiday tales of stern looks from natives when using the wrong term on holiday

    With the myriad of different national identites in Central Europe it’s quite common to see towns in border areas having two or in some cases even three names on their welcome plates eg Kosice is also know by its Hungarian name, Kassa and the German, Kaschau.

    It all comes down to whether the majority population as to how tolerant they are in letting the minority express their identity, you will see less “shared” names in towns along the countries Serbia borders for example.

  • “It all comes down to whether the majority population is tolerant enough (or self-confident in their own identity) as to whether they let the “minority” express theirs, you will see less “shared” names in towns along the countries Serbia borders, for example.”

  • grandimarkey

    O’Neill:
    “It all comes down to whether the majority population is tolerant enough (or self-confident in their own identity) as to whether they let the “minority” express theirs”

    Do you reckon this applies to Derry?

  • ayeYerMa

    Micheál, the names used officially in the Republic of Ireland are a remnant of the bigoted values of the likes of Eamon De Valera who most definitely was a member of the “Brits out” brigade. Just because you were taught it in school doesn’t mean it is right.

  • ayeYerMa

    galloglaigh, there was NO city before the Plantation in the area – there was a mere MONESTARY called Doire Colmcille.

    I’ll leave it in the words of historian Dr. Eamon Phoenix beforehand at 40 minutes 26 seconds in:

  • foyle observer

    ayeYerma,

    you wouldn’t happen to be one of these people from outside of Derry, who get wound up about we call our wee city?

    what does it have to do with you?

    the majority call it by it’s original name. that’s all you need to know.

  • Micheál

    ayeYerMa

    The name is not just used officially in Ireland, it’s used unofficially as well: by the “Brits Out”, “Brits In” and “Couldn’t Care Less” brigades.

    By the way, the name of the country is Ireland, or Eire if you prefer: just because you were taught something in school doesn’t mean it is right.

  • grandimarkey

    Do you reckon this applies to Derry?

    Well, having seen the last comment, I’m not sure I am permitted to give an opinion as an outsider from Derry;)

    Is a Slovak in Kosice any less Slovak because some people call his city Kassa? Nope and they know that.

  • lamhdearg

    city of derry, county londonderry, its been sorted out in my head for years now. of more interest to me is when are we going to hear the name of the fountian estate pronounced properly, its lodz.

  • What’s a monestary? Or for that matter, a fountian?

    People who argue about names need to check their spelling.

  • lamhdearg

    Dyslexia is a disability, you cookhead.

  • Mick Fealty

    ‘my general lack of annoyance’… I don’t know what you were thinking… 😉

  • Mike the First

    galloglaigh

    “I often laugh at the ignorance of this contributor. The city, one of the first Christian settlements in Europe, was named Doire, or Derry (phonetically translated to English) for 1100 years, before it was renamed Londonderry. To say that Derry is, as Carrick is, a shortened term for Londonderry, shows a clear ignorance on the origins of the city. Any nationalist outrage is merely towards this element.”

    Wrong, wrong, wrong. The settlement of Doire (Derry) was destroyed by the Gaelic chieftain Cahir O’Doherty in 1608. A new city, Londonderry, was built from 1613 on the opposite bank of the River Foyle.

  • Mike the First

    It’s interesting that in a strange quirk of history, almost all of the “traditional” Protestant/loyalist terminology relating to events and organisations in Londonderry uses the name Derry.

    So we have the Apprentice Boys of Derry, the Relief of Derry celebrations, the song “Derry’s Walls”, the reference to “Derry, Aughrim…” in “The Sash”, the Church of Ireland diocese of Derry and Raphoe, and First Derry Presbyterian Church. And indeed as the writer notes, “Derry Day” and the old UVF’s City of Derry Regiment (the latter being a new one to me).

    Perhaps a clear indication that Protestants/loyalists/unionists were comfortable enough using “Derry” in everyday and even official language until the campaign of more recent decades to expunge any reference at all to Londonderry.

  • Charlie Sheens PR guru

    Being a native of derry myself I am happy to use both names (although I’ll still manage to p**s off everyone). I live in the waterside area halfway between oakgrove integrated PS and oakgrove secondary school so I generally associate Doire with the broader roots of the city and call it its anglicised Derry for that reason (and its shorter). But I do describe the walled area as Londonderry and have introduced two german friends to this area in these terms.

    As for other disputes, my g/f is Greek and shot me a dirty look once when I referred to the FYR of macedonia, as the Greeks claim it (the historical area encompasses parts of up to 6 Balkan nations) and I was told to call it Skopje instead.

    Somewhat comforting to know that its not just us…

  • Mike the First

    Micheál

    “By the way, the name of the country is Ireland, or Eire if you prefer: just because you were taught something in school doesn’t mean it is right.”

    ayeYerMan used the official description of the state, that’s hardly incorrect either.

    Anyways…

    I remember reading a little bit about the proposed Israeli naming policy. The (Israeli) writer thought that it was daft that in a country with so much religious and historical tourism, it would be daft to have signs in English pointing to Natzret rather than Nazareth, and Beit Lehem rather than Bethlehem (yes I’m aware the latter is in the West Bank).

  • tomthumbuk

    I don’t know what all this arguing is about.
    It’s quite simple.
    Let me explain
    The name of the city is Londonderry.
    Some people have difficulty using big words, so they shorten it to Derry.
    OK?
    Sorted.

  • Lionel Hutz

    Andyerma

    “there was NO city before the Plantation in the area – there was a mere MONESTARY called Doire Colmcille.

    If there was “NO” city in the area and it was just a mere “MONESTARY”, then why did King James I in his Charter say the following:

    “…..that the said city or town of Derry, for ever hereafter be and shall be named and called the city of Londonderry….”

    furthermore, King James II said in in the 1662 charter:

    “…. we will, ordain, constitute, confirm, and declare that the said city or town of Derry, for ever hereafter be, and shall be named and called the City of Londonderry…..”

  • ayeYerMa

    Micheál, yes indeed, the fact that the Republic has the obnoxious audacity to officially call itself “Ireland” is indeed another remnant of the sheer jingoistic arrogance and bigotry of Eamon De Valera – nothing more.

    Lionel, that quote is referring to the new British plantation settlement before it was properly “Christened”. Before the plantation there was no settlement beyond a monastery. As has been pointed out repeatedly on this thread, Unionists never had a problem with ‘derry before the Republican campaigns to eradicate anything that sounds remotely British started.

  • DT123

    Republicans have to continually pick at the minutiae of the Northern Ireland situation ,as deep down they know that is all they will ever be able to do.They were born and will probably die in Northern Ireland ,having wasted their entire life mopeing about their situation.
    If there were ever to be any form of unification,it will bear no resemblance to the Gaelic/catholic/socialist/green,white and orange state that they dream about.The waste of lives and words has been astronomical yet they will keep on wanting names changed and insist on being addressed by the Gaelic spelling of their name ,becuse it is all that they can ever hope to achieve.
    Politics forums are full of the same old arguements going around and around,when the fundamental questions have all been answered for the forseeable future.Who knows what will happen in 50 years or so ,but endless arguements on the internet aren’t going to change things one iota.

  • ayeYerMa

    As said, I believe that the do-gooders thinking that they’re being “inclusive” by saying “Londonderry/Derry” etc. are actually the ones who I’ hold most responsible for reducing this down into a sectarian issue – no one should make any issue when someone says either Londonderry or the shortened Derry. I think it has gotten so bad that many of those from outside the city tend to avoid talking about the place if at all possible.

    Indeed a completely fresh rename may be the only practical thing that could banish this petty nonsense into history for good – “Maiden City” as the official name does have something romantic about it that would sound good. Then rename the county back to County Coleraine and we’re sorted! Would “Maiden City” catch on? Would people start talking about “Going up to Maiden” given the 4 syllable length of the title “Maiden City”? Or would people simply revert back to the old names? Perhaps alternatively simply “Foyle City” or just “Foyle”?

  • Micheál

    ayeYerMa might be onto something here….. a completely fresh rename….. we’d have to have a vote of course, give the people the choice:

    – Maiden City
    – Foyle City
    – Stroke City
    – Derry
    – Londonderry

    Let the majority decide on what to call their own city….. this might just work! By George, I think he’s got it!

  • Drumlins Rock

    maybe we should learn from one of the largest cities on earth, with both one of the longest and shortest names,
    “The town was named El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora la Reina de los Ángeles del Río de Porciúncula (The Town of Our Lady the Queen of the Angels of the Porciúncula River).”
    or LA to most of us, therefore might I suggest our second city is called
    “The Maiden City of The London Guilds & St Columba’s Church, at Derry on the River Foyle”

  • RG Cuan

    The irony in the original post seems to have been lost in amidst of superfluous debate about a city’s name, which has been played out many times before.

    The real language issue that attempted to erase all traces of a certain identity was the systematic anglicisation of all Gaelic placenames and surnames to nonsensical approximations.

    Even though today’s Irish-speaking population use the correct original versions, efforts to erase identity continue as Stormont still refuses to erect bilingual road signs, even in areas that request them.

  • Drumlins Rock

    Cuan, there is no such thing as “correct original versions” the Irish language was not standardised until the 20th C, and the language has evolved since then, not to mention regional variations that are being wiped away by modern back translation, and often mistranslation. On top of it all places change their names quite frequently during history, just as much before the plantation as after it, which version should be used in the atempt to clease the country of it planter influence?

  • foyle observer

    The level of Unionist arrogance in this thread is unbelievable.

    You talk about a majority when it comes to the North of Ireland remaining part of a completely separate country across the Irish Sea but when it comes to the majority in a city wishing to call their city by it’s original name, it’s a different matter.

    You have no shame. The days of Unionist control over a predominantly Nationalist city are over – get with the times.

  • Eddie (Eamonn) Mac Bhloscaidh

    Please note, anyone who has even a passing knowledge of the Irish language or place-names study know that Drumlin’s Rock is taliking nonsence.

    Does he know that? know sure.

    “back translation”

    Need to check meaning of the word translation me thinks.

  • foyle observer

    ‘on top of it all places change their names quite frequently during history’ – drumlins rock

    Well then you’ll have to accept that over time, the name ‘Londonderry’ has also fallen into disuse?

    I mean, the city’s council changed many years ago to ‘Derry City Council’. The city’s airport is called ‘City of Derry Airport’.

    Just two major examples of how, over time, this particular place’s name has changed.

  • JR

    There is a grain of truth in what DR is saying but is is the exception rather that the rule. The only example I am aware of is Warrenpoint. Warrenpoint was founded by the Hall family, there was no settlement there pre 1840ish. The Irish name an Phointe came from what the settlement was refered to by the native Irish speakers of just over the lough in omeath however the new Irish name”Rinn Mhic Giolla Rua” comes from a townland nearby. It has been on the go for about 15 years now and came about because an Phointe is just a direct translation of the Point doesn’t sount authentic enough.

    However DR do the current residents of Rinn Mhic Giolla Rua not have as much right to re-name their town today as the planters had when they re-named scores of place that sounded too Irish?

  • RG Cuan

    DR

    There is no comparison between the original Gaelic form of placenames or surnames which actually have a meaning and the later anglicised bastardisations which have no meaning whatsoever.

    Of course there are sometimes debates on which particular Irish version should be used but a consensus can easily be reached through a combination of local knowledge and linguistic research.

    And I never mentioned ridding the country of ‘planter influence’, my point was to highlight the widescale attempt that was made to erase Gaelic culture, especially language. I would also argue for equality between the proper Irish names and the newer anglicised versions on road signs, official documents etc.

  • ayeYerMa

    foyle observer – the council in Newtownards is “Ards Borough Council”. Does that mean that Newtownards in now “in disuse”?

    Derry City Airport is originally Eglinton RAF base dating from WWII.

  • foyle observer

    Nice wee bit of ‘whataboutery’ there, ayeyerma.

    And a completely irrelevant piece of information on our local airport – many thanks for that.

  • Drumlins Rock

    Cuan, I would argue that even though the names have been bastardised (no-more than what the English/Scots did to many of their own placenames) essentially the vast majority of names reflect their Gelic origin, and these names are something that unites the community in this country, think about it one of the most outspoken protectors of the ancient gaelic townland names has been the Orange Order. I would go further and say the Anglasized versions may better reflect original pronounciations rather than the modern Irish spellings used, ie. is Derry or Doire closer to the old Daire in prononciation?

  • JR

    DR,
    you are right there. listening to the recordings of native speakers from ulster the way Down is pronounced in english reflects its Irish pronounciation exactly in the Dialect of South East Ulster.

  • galloglaigh

    Mike the First:

    A new city, Londonderry, was built from 1613 on the opposite bank of the River Foyle”

    Wrong, wrong, wrong. Both the old settlement and the new settlement were built on the West bank of the Foyle. In fact, the remains of the old settlement are located just outside the walls, South of Bishop’s gate.

    Sorry to put you straight again, but the settlement destroyed by O’Doherty was the new plantation settlement chartered by King James I. It was burned in a dispute with the new English Mayor over a slap in the face O’Doherty received from the mayor over fishing rights at Inch Island.

    You don’t have a clue do you? You are obviously not reading your history, yet you think you know it all – don’t you!

  • RG Cuan

    DR

    It’s great that people take an interest in placenames, and indeed many anglicised versions do retain something that is quite similar to the original Irish pronunciation, but there’s no getting away from the fact they’re not Irish.

    The new anglicised versions mean nothing whereas any Gaelic speaker can understand the meaning of a place instantly by just reading the original name in the original language. It’s a connection to the place, to the people who lived there and creates a real context for future Irish speakers.

  • Tochais Síoraí

    Apologies to those who’ve heard this before….

    Back in the 80s somewhere outside Enniskillen (or Inis Ceithleán if you prefer!) a driver gets stopped by a UDR patrol.

    ‘Where are you off to, Sir?’
    ‘Derry’ replied the driver.
    ‘Can you open your boot, please?’

    Ten minutes later
    Where did you say you were headed for?
    ‘Derry’ replied the driver again.
    Open your bonnet for us.’

    Another ten minutes
    ‘Where did you say you were going again?
    ‘I told you before. Derry.’
    ‘Step out of the car, we need to search inside.’

    After a twenty minute search, the patrol leader asks ‘Where did you say you were going?’
    ‘F**k it, I’ve changed me mind.’

    ‘I’m going to Strabane.’

  • Drumlins Rock

    Cuan, names grow far beyond their original meaning, there is no Oak Grove at Derry, just as the castle is long gone from Newcastle, the names have a life of their own created over centuries, if it was so important to understand the meaning of a place name instantly we would be talking about, Oakgrove, or Sandyrivermouth, or Owensland, or Islandcathleen, so that everyone and not just Gaelic speakers would understand, but the meaning is not that important in all but a few.

    The new Irish names are not the originals, they are modern version of the best interpretation, to finish lets go to the largest city in NI, is Belfast “Béal Feirste – Rivermouth of the Sandbars, or is it the Rivermouth of the Farset? we can never know for sure.

  • RG Cuan

    DR

    Yes, current placenames in Gaelic are written in the contemporary version of Irish but it’s still the same language as that which has been spoken here for over a millennium and a half. It’s a natural progression, the bastardised versions are obviously not.

    Béal Feirste is Béal Feirste, we don’t translate it in our minds to English everytime we say it.

    The gist of your posts is that anglicised placenames (i presume you would also include surnames etc.) are more valid than their Gaelic versions, which is certainly not the case.

    The bastardised names are in common usage in English, the older Irish names from which the anglicised names derive are used everyday by Gaelic speakers, so equal status and importance should be promoted.

  • Brian Walker

    Over the wall, al Quds sounds entlrely different doesn’t it?

  • Reader

    RG Cuan: The gist of your posts is that anglicised placenames (i presume you would also include surnames etc.) are more valid than their Gaelic versions, which is certainly not the case.
    Have you guys even settled on a definition of “valid”? Along with 50,000 other people, I live in Bangor. How many people live in Beannchar?

  • HeinzGuderian

    “furthermore, King James II said in in the 1662 charter:”

    ????????

    Charles II reigned a tad longer than Two years,if I’m not very much mistaken !!

    I have read this argument a Thousand times. I grow weary of it.

  • Drumlins Rock

    Cuan, having alternative names is divisive, in some cases if there genuinely is an overwhelming Gealic speaking population, and few if any minorities to feel excluded then it would be better to change the name completely, but dual name just causes further un-necessary division, as the above discussion proves.

  • “Stroke City” – If we continue down this path, the city will soon become associated with serious health problems.

    I say the people to blame for this state of affairs is the Romans. Now it was they who founded the city of Londonium. Worse still, they took a decision not to invade Ireland, thus creating a cultural divide which affects Northern Ireland today.

    But the GAA could make a contribution towards solving this problem.

    At the moment, London is affiliated to the Connaught provincial GAA. If they switched London into the Ulster GAA, we would frequently have matches between London and Derry. People would say “I’m going to the London-Derry match” and they would then get used to the name “Londonderry” and eventually accept it.

  • Drumlins Rock

    is London not an old pre Roman Celtic name? no-one really knows, as for the Romans coming to Ireland, I have a theory that Ireland is more divided by the Saxon/Germanic Versus Celtic/Romasque ethnic divide that runs right across Europe, but the discussion for another day.

  • galloglaigh

    HeinzGuderian

    “Charles II reigned a tad longer than Two years

    On 10 April 1662 King Charles II granted a further Charter… “we will, ordain, constitute, confirm, and declare that the said city or town of Derry, for ever hereafter be, and shall be named and called the City of Londonderry…..”

  • RG Cuan

    DR

    “Having alternative names is divisive”.

    All over the world places have different names in different languages, and it doesn’t cause that much trouble in bilingual areas of Germany, Switzerland, Italy, the Basque Country etc…

    Usage of bilingual placenames only affronts those who are threatened by cultural diversity and linguistic equality.

    READER

    “I live in Bangor. How many people live in Beannchar?”

    Of course you live in Bangor, it’s just that some people call it Beannchar.

  • Mike the First, This anomaly of Derry being used by Protestant associations,was pointed out to Gregory Campbell in the local version of Question Time a couple of seasons ago, and his ‘explanation’ was greeted by the audience with laughter. The truth is, from my reading of local press in the newspaper library in Belfast, that unionists politicians only began insisting neurotically on the prefix after they lost control of the council, [in 1973, I believe]. They weren’t fixated on it before then. So they really had it in for Chris Patten for letting the council change it, [after Patten did away with ‘their police force’ as Robbo put it.

  • Lugh

    The city has been Doire for as long as time remembers, and to call it anything else is just daft. Insisting that the name can only be changed by Royal Charter, as Judge Weir established in Belfast, is however, legally correct and it will remain uncahnged untill the populous as a majority in the provence decide otherwise. The vast proportion of moderate ordinary joes of both sides call it Derry. The rest use it as a stick to remind the majority irish residents that they are rulled by London to a great degree. As such I should expect that in another 500 years, when these issues have been left by the wayside, that the ancient name, in some futuristic tounge, will return.