The Detail on UDR-UVF Collusion

Over at The Detail, Barry McCaffrey has a story concerning links between the UVF and UDR which was prominently covered in the Irish News on Monday. The secret MOD papers reveal how senior figures in the British Army believed up to 70 members of one UDR unit in west Belfast were linked with the UVF, as well as suspecting that £47,000 was siphoned off by  a UDR unit for the UVF. The documents were included in a Feile an Phobail exhibition entitled ‘UDR: Gallant Soldiers, Terrorists or Victims’ in St Mary’s University College on Monday.

An extensive range of links on this theme have been included at the bottom of The Detail story.

  • Guevaras Ghost

    Dont know why this is surprising , the dogs on the strreet know loyalists were simply british militias. Trainned armed and financed.

  • sonofstrongbow

    ….. and the dogs have communicated this information over a beer and a fag. They also let slip the presence of the Mother Ship lurking behind Mars but advised keeping it quiet to avoid a run on tinfoil at local supermarkets.

  • RepublicanStones

    How long before the fruit analogy…

  • Guevaras Ghost

    (profile) says:
    3 August 2011 at 10:35 am

    ….. and the dogs have communicated this information over a beer and a fag. They also let slip the presence of the Mother Ship lurking behind Mars but advised keeping it quiet to avoid a run on tinfoil at local supermarkets.

    and probably discussed in the bunch of grapes as the carried out murder in the back room.

  • ranger1640

    Only 70 had links, out of the tens of thousands who went through their ranks that is not a bad percentage!!!

    Just to draw a comparison I wonder how many had/have links with the IRA who were in the Irish Army. Not that we will ever find that out!!!

    I wonder how many in Sinn Fein who are currently in government in Northern Ireland and in the Dail in the republic (not past tense present tense) are members of the IRA?

  • keano10

    I suspect that this is one of those stories which is going to get considerably bigger as the weeks go on.

    The simple reason being the sheer scale of what is being alleged here. In the past Unionist reaction to alleged collusion has always been along the lines of “Well you are bound to the odd bad egg in any organisation”. But that was it No possible recognition.of any allged widespread collusion.

    What is truly staggering here is the allegation that SEVENTY members of just one UDR unit were linked with the UVF. That is pretty mind-bongling stuff even by the standards of this place and it opens up a huge array of questions in relation to the many sectarian murders which took place in West and North Belfast during those years.

    I suspect that there is much, much, more to come on this one…

  • RepublicanStones

    Only 70 had links, out of the tens of thousands who went through their ranks that is not a bad percentage!!!

    I suggest you read it again.

    Also out of those known to have had links, i wonder how many knew of such links. This again questions the definition of collusion.

  • Joe Bloggs

    ‘believed’

    ‘suspected’

    In other words more rumour and speculation (edited- Play the ball.)

  • Joe Bloggs

    Guevaras Ghost (profile)
    3 August 2011 at 10:13 am

    Dont know why this is surprising , the dogs on the strreet know loyalists were simply british militias. Trainned armed and financed.

    – – – – – – – – – –

    Any idea why that same British government put almost 10,000 Loyalists behind bars during The Troubles?

    Why ‘train, arm and finance’ a Loyalist militia only to spend millions of pounds arresting, charging, prosecuting and imprisoning thousands of them???

    Hmmm……….

  • Joe Bloggs

    ranger1640 (profile)
    3 August 2011 at 10:54 am

    Only 70 had links, out of the tens of thousands who went through their ranks that is not a bad percentage!!!

    – – – – – – – – – –

    We don’t even know what constitutes a ‘link’ anyway.

    A ‘link’ could be a UDR member with a second cousin in the UVF. Or a UDR member who lives next door to a UVF member.

  • between the bridges

    two udr men dismissed for security reasons and others caught diddling their overtime…………not quite the same impact as the ”70” headline but just depends on what you want to cherry pick and how you want to represent your interpretation of the ‘facts’ I only read one of the documents
    ‘UDR PERSONNELL CONNECTED WITH PARAMILITARY ORGINASATIONS- 10 UDR’
    5. As a result of reports submitted by security section recommendations were made that
    a. Seven men should be discharged from the UDR, one of these had been discharged for reasons not connected with security during the interval between interview and staff recommendations. Another was allowed to continue after representations by the CO. Of the remaining five, it was agreed that three would be discharged for administrative or disciplinary reasons, or by non-renewal of service. Security Grounds where used to dismiss only two.
    6
    The fraud case held some security interest for a time, because an allegation had been made that some of the illegally acquired money was finding its way into the hands of paramilitary groups. This allegation was never substantiated and the complete case involving the theft by fraud of some 45K has been handed to the DPP for a decision on prosecution.’

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    “A ‘link’ could be a UDR member with a second cousin in the UVF. Or a UDR member who lives next door to a UVF member.”

    Or a member of the Shankill Butchers, the many victims of which were picked up within walking distance of Girdwood Barracks.
    The 70 involved were a snapshot of one barracks, at one period of time.

  • Joe Bloggs

    But it could also be a UDR member with a second cousin in the UVF. Or a UDR member who lives next door to a UVF member.

    You’re attempting to discredit tens of thousands of men because of the alleged actions of a tiny percentage of their number.

    If we used your logic we could smear the entire membership of Sinn Fein because of the alleged behaviour of Liam Adams and Briege Meehan.

  • lamhdearg

    “The documents were included in a Feile an Phobail exhibition entitled ‘UDR: Gallant Soldiers, Terrorists or Victims’” in St Mary’s University College on Monday.
    Is that where my tax’es go’s, not training teachers but keeping a catholic controled college open, for irish nationalist propaganda porpose’s, at the all embracing feile. please someone show me the reverse ie Whatabout the state school being used for anti irish propaganda.

  • DoppiaVu

    Had a quick look at the documents. There are a variety of allegations. We can only speculate on how many of these allegations were proved. And we can only speculate on exactly what these ‘links’ were.

    However, one thing that the documents prove beyond any doubt is that the British security forces were actively investigating and taking action to prevent collusion.

  • Mark

    and with the other hand they were actively running a sectarian dirty war …

  • lamhdearg

    “and with the other hand they were actively running a sectarian dirty war …” Mark i would replace the word “running,” with controling. they (the British) also had many a agent in the ver irish nats groups. Back to work for me.

  • Mark

    Yeah absolutely Lamhdearg …. running / controlling both sides and probably some part of the Irish Govt aswell .

    Enjoy work this afternoon amigo …… my bairn just got back from Thailand , two weeks hols for moi .

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    ‘If we used your logic we could smear the entire membership of Sinn Fein because of the alleged behaviour of Liam Adams and Briege Meehan.’

    My logic is that a serving member of the UDR operated out of Girdwood Barracks and was also a member of the Shankill Butchers. He was convicted, thus guilt has been established.

    I am unaware of guilt having been established in the cases you mentioned

  • Joe Bloggs

    And if they are found guilty…… using your logic I can call you paedophile.

    See where you’ve gone wrong here Pat?

  • ranger1640

    “A NUMBER of soldiers in the Irish army and at least six garda officers colluded with the IRA, according to a dossier to be submitted to the Smithwick inquiry in the coming weeks”.

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article694580.ece

  • Mark

    Jeffrey Donaldson named Garda Stg Eoin Corrigan under PP as the garda who tipped off the IRA about the RUC officers movement . Corrigan denied this and brought the newspaper who published the allegation to court in 09 winning 400,000 euros in damages .

  • CharlieMcCarthy29

    I can’t find it anywhere but does anyone know how many UDR soldiers were on the base where the 70 were reported to be based?

  • tacapall

    Its not as if this is new news, from the UDR were formed most of its members were from the disbanded B specials and loyalist paramilitaries heres a interesting book review on the subject.

    http://www.helium.com/items/1941994-a-very-british-jihad

  • pippakin

    Since everyone in the north seems to know everyone else I find it hard to believe there is any organisation, legal or not, whose members do not know, or are related to members of other organisations legal or not. Its all so claustrophobic up there.

  • tacapall

    Certainly was Pippakin a bit like the Catholic church and the Irish government, while one committed heinous crimes against its citizens the other turned a blind eye to those activities.

  • pippakin

    tacapall

    And like some abused children the IRA went on to become the abusers of their neighbours. How far are you trying to stretch this?

    I find the idea that members of the UDR were unknown to members of the UVF unbelievable. I would be surprised if it were only seventy odd and as Keano10 says this story may grow but I’m not sure that the knowledge was all guilty or if some of it was completely innocent.

  • Cynic2

    “I wonder how many in Sinn Fein who are currently in government in Northern Ireland and in the Dail in the republic (not past tense present tense) are members of the IRA?”

    ….even better how many of them used to work for the Brits?

    Let’s confine the answer to say pre 1995 – now, of course, they all do.

  • tacapall

    “And like some abused children the IRA went on to become the abusers of their neighbours. How far are you trying to stretch this”.

    Pippakin there’s going to be a program on shortly dealing with the sexual abuse of children and prostitution, its going to be very embarrasing for various sections of the loyalist community especially on the Shankill where this type of activity has been going on for decades. I wonder will the usual loyalist posters act deaf dumb and blind when it comes out.

  • Reader

    Joe Bloggs: We don’t even know what constitutes a ‘link’ anyway. A ‘link’ could be a UDR member with a second cousin in the UVF. Or a UDR member who lives next door to a UVF member.
    So, does President McAleese have links with the UDA?

  • lamhdearg

    tacapall,
    what program, when, what side.

  • Reader

    keano: What is truly staggering here is the allegation that SEVENTY members of just one UDR unit were linked with the UVF.
    Instead of being staggered, do the sums. During the troubles there was a NI population of 1,500,000, so 750,000 males, 400,000 prod males, 250,000 able bodied adult prod males.
    Now, if we knew how many Prod, male UDR men there were, and how many Prod, male, loyalist paramilitaries there were, we could work out the expected overlap. The expected overlap should probably be increased because of lazy, urban, white-collar, snobs like myself not being in either. Then, if there were fewer people than expected with membership in common the UDR was trying to keep itself clean. If there were more, then there was a problem.
    But I have no idea how we could look at the statistics of ‘links’ until we see a definition. For instance, you may have links to loyalist paramilitaries yourself:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_degrees_of_separation
    Then we can look at the GAA and the IRA.

  • RepublicanStones

    Then we can look at the GAA and the IRA.

    Yeah because just like the UDR and loyalists the GAA are so remarkable similar to the IRA. Big demand for weapons at Saturday morning training i recall.

  • lamhdearg

    republicanstones,
    do you think the gaa ever facilitated the raising of moneys for the cause.

  • lamhdearg

    any cross over in the membership

  • lamhdearg

    anyone ever put out of the gaa for being LINKED to the ira

  • lamhdearg

    sorry strike that last one, of course not the gaa named there stadia after the ira members.

  • lamhdearg

    or maybe there is some obscure hidden report that says girdwood, was to be renamed lenny murphy barracks.

  • Joe Bloggs

    Still no definition of what a ‘link’ actually is….

    I once porked the daughter of a leading Sinner (on Easter Sunday no less) – am I ‘linked’ to the IRA???

  • RepublicanStones

    Yes lamhdearg its well known that a terrorist organisation can foster as fruitful a symbiotic relationship between itself and a sporting organisation with folks sympathteic to its cause which has access to balls and sticks and green fields and hi-vis jackets as it can with a military organisation sympathetic to its cause with access to…you know, all that kind of stuff they have in common, be it hardware or training 😉

  • tacapall

    Joe bloggs heres what a link is for you.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_Defence_Regiment

    The UDR had a problem throughout its history with infiltration of its structures by loyalist paramilitaries. Initially, dual membership of the UDR and Ulster Defence Association (UDA) was acceptable to the military authorities as the UDA was not seen as a threat to the state.[100][101] The Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF), an illegal organisation,[102] also exploited membership of the UDR and its potential for circulating intelligence files on the nationalist community throughout its ranks.[103] Since the beginning of the The Troubles the best source of weapons and the only significant source of modern weapons for loyalist paramilitary groups has been the UDR. In 1972 alone 190 UDR weapons, including 140 SLR rifles were allegedly lost. The vast majority of the weapons were in the hands of loyalist paramilitary groups.[104] In the early years of the regiment’s history loyalist paramilitaries raided (or were given access to) several UDR barracks and were able to steal substantial quantities of modern weaponry. Most of these weapons were subsequently recovered in follow up operations by the security forces but some were proven to have been used by loyalist organisations to carry out sectarian crime, including murders.[105] A number of UDR soldiers were convicted of assisting paramilitaries by providing information to enable these raids to take place.

  • Joe Bloggs

    You still haven’t given me a definition…..

  • RepublicanStones

    You still haven’t given me a definition…..,/i>

    Hard to do so, unless you’ll get the British govt (one of the most secret in western world) to open all their files. I mean, what on earth have they got to hide….right?

    (cue the usual refrain…)

  • CharlieMcCarthy29

    too much whataboutery here.

  • lamhdearg

    Of all these weapons the where handed over to the uvf, how many where used to kill?(one would be too many). tacapall whens that program on?.

  • Reader

    CharlieMcCarthy29: too much whataboutery here.
    Either overlapping memberships are damning, or they are not. What’s it to be?

  • Joe Bloggs

    If we can’t get a definition then we have no idea what these ‘links’ were.

    For all we know these 70 men had distant relatives (cousins, in-laws, nephews) on the fringes of Loyalist paramilitaries.

    If that’s the case most of us could be classed as having ‘links’ to paramilitaries.

  • lamhdearg

    joe “porked”, be nice.

  • Reader

    RepublicanStones: Yes lamhdearg its well known that a terrorist organisation can foster as fruitful a symbiotic relationship between itself and a sporting organisation with folks sympathteic to its cause which has access to balls and sticks and green fields and hi-vis jackets as it can with a military organisation sympathetic to its cause with access to…you know, all that kind of stuff they have in common, be it hardware or training
    Nationalism and testosterone would hint at a correlation, anyway. But either numbers are damning, or they aren’t. Make your mind up.

  • nightrider

    Was the UDR actually a ‘combat’ regiment? ie like the Irish Guards or Gurkhas? Did they get the same training? I know when the RIR came in to being, there was a ‘general service’-worldwide Battalion and some ‘Home Service’ ones.

    I can’t see that mainland or regular squaddies would have a good relationship with part time localised soldiers. The UDR seem to have been part of the TA. They’re not trained to the same level as regulars.

    neither Jeffrey Donaldson or Tom Elliot strikes me as the same type as Tim Collins or Paddy Ashdown.

    I could be wrong.

  • CharlieMcCarthy29

    Reader,

    Given the relatively small population and hundreds of years of myth making, on all sides, it’s hardly surprising that some members of the UDR were involved in terrorism nor that some members of the GAA would do likewise. Damning? Yes, of course, but understandable.

  • augustiner hell

    ’15 men have been involved over a period of years, about 30
    have less extensive connections and a further 20-30 have some slight connection’. I would say that means at least 40 men had a more than an innocent connection.
    However the report refers to ‘infiltration’ and ‘penetration’.If I were a paramilitary boss with an ounce of intelligence I would most certainly be encouraging my volunteers ( for want of a better word) to infiltrate the UDR for a number of reasons..military training, intelligence, access to weapons etc etc. Most were probably paramiltaries (or had links to) before joining the UDR. After all, the provos probably had no wish to be infiltrated and penetrated (:-)) so deeply by the British but it still happened.

  • nightrider

    And of course there was always Frank Kitson (in his black helicopter) to ‘lead the way’, as i believe ‘faugh a ballagh’ means in the native tongue.

    Did the UDR actually come under direct command of the GOC, or local RUC?

  • lamhdearg

    By the mid to late 80s, they would not let people with clean records into the udr, on account that a relative had done time for a loyalist related crime carried out in the 70s, even though said person had a major in the udr a police member and a well respected catholic businessman as reference, yea the udr and the british army where the uvf in uniform, and the gaa where the ira in shorts.

  • ayeYerMa

    tacapall, how long ago did you edit Wikipedia to add that bit in?

    Wikipedia is absolutely DIRE for anything Northern Ireland-related. Too many using it for point-scoring so that it becomes biased beyond belief.

  • USA

    The UDR was full of loyalists. It’s one of the reasons why it had to go.

    Some of the early posters on this thread should be ashamed of themselves, trying to excuse state murder and mahem as a few bad apples, or “only 70” guys etc.

    These guys aided, abetted and committed murder. One community “policed” the other. One set of murderes were supported by the “state” and were the law, while the opposing guys were called terrorists and did jail time.

    The state forces should be taken to task for the murders they committed in the same way most IRA volunteers served jail time over the last 30 to 40 years. The colluding state forces are no different to Nazi war criminals and should be incarcerated following a guilty verdict at trial.

    But i’m not holding my breath. Took them 40 years just to apologize for murdering 14 people in Derry. They are hardly going to investigate and get convictions on hundreds of state murders.

  • CharlieMcCarthy29

    Time to move on, USA. There are lots of unconvicted criminals of all persuasions.

  • Alan N/Ards

    USA

    You really need to take off those green tinted Irish American glasses. The republican killer gangs, who claimed they were the defenders of catholics in Northern Ireland killed as many catholics ( if not more) as the the British army during the “troubles”.

    No doubt many loyalists were in the security forces but the question is what kind of loyalists were they? Many of these people would have considered themselves loyal to the State. They were not loyal to the UVF. That is why so many paramilitary “loyalists” were imprisoned by the security forces. If soldiers or police have broken the law then they deserve to be imprisoned as well. The same goes for former terrorists who are now politicians. Do you agree?

    Are you saying that all loyalists are bad and all republicans are good? Is the Irish loyalist tradition ( in your eyes) not as equal as the Irish republican tradition?

    It must be great livinging in the states. No corrupt policemen and no gungho soldiers. Or indeed corrupt politicians.

  • Brian

    “It must be great livinging in the states. No corrupt policemen and no gungho soldiers. Or indeed corrupt politicians.”

    True, but at least they don’t have to deal with politicians who used to be terrorists.

  • CharlieMcCarthy29

    …they don’t have to deal with politicians who used to be terrorists…

    Well actually they do and have done for years. Wasn’t Mubarak a great pal of theirs?