POTD – It’s as close or as far away as you want it to be

St Matthews Chapel Newtownards Rd 3rd July 2011

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  • keano10

    There is a majesty about St Matthews Chapel which none of those emblems can diminish.

  • Drumlins Rock

    yup, the three crosses of Saints George, Andrew and Patrick complement that of St Matthews spire.

  • Tweedybird

    Very witty Drumlins Rock.

  • PeterBrown

    *It’s as close or as far away as you want it to be” – a bit like Keano’s counting of the number of bands playing The Sash at this very point on the Twelfth morning, speaking of which I see you are not as I feared MIA Keano. Care to get back to me on that point on the other thread Keano – or is there nothing left to say once you have viewed Alan’s video where the facts speak for themselves? http://sluggerotoole.com/2011/07/15/orange-corner-boys-tricks/ just in case you had forgotten…….

  • eddie poole

    Does it matter how many bands played the Sash outside St Matthews-even one is too many although I gather that the correct figure is 6?

  • ranger1640

    Below is what can only be said are two versions of the Sash that are republican. Therefore to lends weight to the fact that many sets of words that can be set to the folk tune.

    In fact there are Loyalist words to the tune that republicans would know as The Fields of Athanry.

    They can play it in Scotland, as a judge ruled the Sash non sectarian.

    Listen to Liam Clancy and the Wolftetones, prove that more than one set of words can be sung to the tune of the Sash, even republican words”.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CR6IL3fUvGU

    Now the alternative

  • PeterBrown

    On the other thread there has been a lengthy debate about this. I agree that when the Commission says none then 6 is 6 too may – but I also sympathise with the position of others questionning why that song is offensive and why the Commmission specifices which music should be played at this point at all.

    Anyway Keano heard 12 and the local residents are sending a recording of 12 to the Parades Commission – at least they were until the video of only 6 playing it appeared here. It explains why the Commission send indepndent observers to these parades as we have yet to receive an explanation as to how 12 were heard and recorded!

  • eddie poole

    Liam Clarke, who is certainly no friend of Republicans, says it all on the issue in his open letter to the Orange Order Leader, as below
    ‘Recently, you wrote to the Parades Commission – a wise move which you should build on. You asked that bands in east Belfast be allowed to play hymn tunes passing St Matthew’s Catholic church and this was agreed at your request.
    Instead, a band played The Sash, claiming it was used in the 23rd Psalm. That made you look bad and the order untrustworthy.
    These were corner boys’ tricks; an attempt to cause offence and break the spirit of the adjudication. You should condemn them and ensure that, in future, the order can be taken at its word.’
    .
    Rather than nitpick over whether 6 or more bands breached the ruling, Peter Brown and other posters would be better off querying what sanctions have been taken against the bands in question and asking why the Orange Order has not condemned this squalid and disrespectful behaviour.

  • ranger1640

    To coin a phrase. One man’s Hymn is another man’s offence????

  • “These flags are small, that church is far away, Dougal.”

  • PeterBrown

    Eddie

    Nicely dodged the question there by answering the question you wanted me to ask rather than the question I have repeatedly asked but not yet had answered – if you are not already a SF politician or press rep you could be someday…

    I have indicated on this thread and the other that “the Parades Commission ruling has been stretched to beyond breaking point and as a member of the Order I think that was wrong – there are no such things as hymn tunes but equally there is no excuse for playing party tunes which simply by their notation can be adapted to well known hymns, that is putting the cart before the horse” is that not good enough?

    Now to go a stage further back in the process of parades the Parades Commission and its determinations are a response to the emergence of Residents Group which Gerry (in)famously told us were effectively Republican trolls and now we discover that some of their complaints appear to be toi put it mildly fabricated – if the parade stretched the rules (it appears that The Sash may be a hymn tune to some and therefore there may be no sanction available against those who played it) and I condemn that are you prepared to do the same for the residents at best exagerating their claims of the breaches and if Keano’s recording exists actually fabricating evidence of breaches which did not occur?

    I await with interest your reply – just don’t take as long as Keano as on average mortality I may not live that long…

  • “St Matthews Chapel Newtownards Rd”

    I wish people would get their facts straight

    St Matthews Parish 1a Bryson St, Belfast, BT5 4ES

  • ranger1640
  • ranger1640

    I will never listen to my old man’s dustman, in quite the same way again. Must get it band form the airwaves, just in case I take offence.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ob5mw6xGYes&feature=related

  • changeisneeded

    ““St Matthews Chapel Newtownards Rd”
    I wish people would get their facts straight
    St Matthews Parish 1a Bryson St, Belfast, BT5 4ES”

    Good man JJ
    you told themuns good and proper..

    now about the orange order being nothing but old bigots..

  • PeterBrown

    Dealt with that one – how about Residents Groups are a bunch of liars?

  • eddie poole

    Pete,
    Of course, I have no time for anyone who exaggerates the number of errant bands in the same way as I have no time for those who make excuses for the bands that did play the Sash.
    However your fixation with the number of bands involved rather than addressing the central issue of the lack of action or response from the Orange Order speaks volumes.

  • The Sash..
    Trad Air..
    ‘My Irish Molly O’

    Lyrics (sole ‘Prod’ lyrics sung):

    Sure l’m an Ulster Orangeman , from Erin’s isle I came,
    To see my British brethren all of honour and of fame,
    And to tell them of my forefathers who fought in days of yore,
    That I might have the right to wear, the sash my father wore!
    Chorus:
    It is old but it is beautiful, and its colours they are fine
    It was worn at Derry, Aughrim, Enniskillen and the Boyne.
    My father wore it as a youth in bygone days of yore,
    And on the Twelfth I love to wear the sash my father wore.

    For those brave men who crossed the Boyne have not fought or died in vain
    Our Unity, Religion, Laws, and Freedom to maintain,
    If the call should come we’ll follow the drum, and cross that river once more
    That tomorrow’s Ulsterman may wear the sash my father wore!

    And when some day, across the sea to Antrim’s shore you come,
    We’ll welcome you in royal style, to the sound of flute and drum
    And Ulster’s hills shall echo still, from Rathlin to Dromore
    As we sing again the loyal strain of the sash my father wore!

    What exactly is offensive in ANY of that??

    Objecting to the Sash being played is nothing only a different type of manifestation of sectarianism. The lyrics arent offensive and the music is traditional Irish. It isnt objected to when the Clancy Brothers sing it or play it.

    Its NOT any music or tunes thats objected to. Its a smokescreen, an excuse thats been given far too much space and creedance to develop. This is about objecting to a specific group of people. And it is therefore no suprise that because of that some elements will focus on the tune in defiance.

    It is SECTARIAN to oppose the sash being played at an event. and it is BIGOTRY to oppose it.

    We need honesty and we need truth.
    This whole process is cyclical. Its going round and round- but NO-ONE has a universal innocence or is blame free. Every party is in the wrong at some point, and there is no exact or direct identifiable point where the first stone was thrown- its all relative.

    The cycle needs broken. And when broken needs some reciprocation. For Loyalism breaking the cycle is difficult because rightly or wrongly it is percieved that there is an agenda against parade oppostion that goes much further than simply a few men marching and music on parade. Add to that that all compromise in the past has been rewarded with even more being demanded and taken.

  • changeisneeded

    eddie poole , agree .. the loyalist apologists for what is pure and utter shit stirring speaks very loudly as to their mindset..

    fly all the flags you want,
    It must be funny for loyalist/oo/unionist bigots to travel out of the country and tell someone you are british in your irish accent..
    hahah

  • andnowwhat

    So, who will the OO blame if they are not allowed to march past St Matthew’s next year because they broke (at least the spirit of) the PC’s determination?

  • tacapall

    andnowwhat who said they wont be allowed to march past St Matthews next year, after the the Ballyclare incident with illegal flags I hardly think playing a few tunes the OO were asked not to play will result in no march next year.

  • andnowwhat

    I’m not saying they won’t (how would I know) but what’s the point in making boundries if the PC don’t enforce them when they feel they have been broken?

    Re Balyclare, it was mentioned on the radio that flags are not allowed to fly beside churches, schools and police stations. There’s no debate about the legality then. The permission of the local drug lords does not need to be sought either.

  • tacapall

    Andnowwhat are you saying Unionists are beyond the law that when it comes to expressions of their identity they disregard it.

  • andnowwhat

    Dear me Tapcali, I would never dare presume such a thing (especially when it is self evident).

  • Re: the discussion about 6 vs 12 plays of the Sash. Remember that I was only there for the way out in the morning. When the district paraded back up this stretch of road in the evening, that may account for the extra plays.

  • PeterBrown

    Alan I have waited for Keano to say that but if you check your own thread I think he has already impliedly ruled out that possibility hence his lengthy absence from that thread and this one…..

  • tacapall

    So Peter does someone saying 12 bands played the sash but you know there was 6 really make any difference at all to the fact that the OO acted dishonourably.

  • PeterBrown

    As I have said (I’m getting a horrible feeling of deja vu about this) no but it does reinforce the Order’s scepticism about the whole basis of the Commission – I have been critical of the stretching of the rules by the parade can you be equally critical of the dishonesty of the residents?

  • Nunoftheabove

    PeterBrown

    Why equally critical, necessarily ?

  • PeterBrown

    Why not?

  • tacapall

    Stretching of the rules by the OO but dishonesty by the residents. Thats a nice way to describe breaking of the law by the OO and those bandsmen. But I suppose going to church doesn’t make you a Christian, any more than standing in a garage makes you a car.

  • changeisneeded

    woops ..to close to the limiter my last comment musta been….
    sorry mods, just calling it as i see it

  • PeterBrown

    I have some limited professional experience of the criminal offences created by the parades legislation – let’s see if anyone (especially orgainsers from the Order) is convicted for these supposedly criminal acts – I doubt it. Especially given the leaflet handed out by the organisers and the apparent ignoring of it by those participating…although having said all that the organisers should either have taken further steps to ensure the rules were observed or take action against those who failed to do so (I’m not holding my breath).

    The misinformation by the Residents however is much more blatant and yet not even potentially criminal and they will face no consequences whatsoever for their apparent dishonesty (not even half hearted criticism on this thread from anyone except Eddie).

  • andnowwhat

    Do the bands not have to submit their playing order to the organisers?

    How come the sash (Like Liam Clarke and others, I din’t buy that 23rd psalm crap) just happened to be played outside St Matthew’s?

    How come 6 bands just happened to play the sash at just the “right” time/point?

    One band plays the sash at St Matthew’s it could well just be the band’s fault, 6 do it and it’s the OO’s fault. Simples

  • changeisneeded

    Team A fight team B. team A win

    321 years later team A march through team B’s town with flags to remind them who won…

    orangefest! a wonderful festival

    yes peter lets blame the “residents” even though they are not the ones antagonising the situation…
    classic

  • PeterBrown

    andnowwhat

    I think that legally (sorry if I now go all lawyer) it is not as simples as that – same as if I invite 20 blokes out to celebrate my birthday if 6 of them get onvolved in a fight and cause someone GBH only they get charged not me provided I do not participate myself especially if I as organiser warn them all beforehand not to misbehave (hence the note). However the establishment where this occurs (to stretch the analogy to accomodate the existence of the Parades Commission) may not be prepared to host the same event next year for fear of a repetition…

    changeisneeded

    That analogy has so many flaws hopefully I do not need to point them out to you or anyone else – interesting to note as a starter for 10 that the Lower Newtownards Road is now team B’s town (exactly the opposite being the case was the reason the Commission had to review its original decision before the a legal challenge would have probably overturned it anyway)

  • andnowwhat

    Peter Brown

    Do you honestly think anyone buys that?

    Please be honest in your response.

  • tacapall

    Peter you still cant get round the fact that the OO and bandsmen that accompanied them were forbidden by those that make the law to play the sash when parading by St matthews Church and as andwhynot said above, six bands just happened to play that tune while marching past St Matthews church this is streatching the bounds of probability, in all likleyhood it was planned.

  • PeterBrown

    andnowwhat

    No but the courts might have to – silence on the dishonesty by the residents again I see

    tacapall

    I’m not trying to get round it – it was planned at least by the individual bands, by the bands together (although you would wonder why less than 1/3 of them participated) or by the organisers (see previous) but they will possibly get away with it in terms of criminal prosecution. Whether the order should take action against the bands concerned and the future attitude of the Commission is another matter altogether – for you too silence on the dishonesty by the residents again I see

  • tacapall

    Peter suggesting all the residents are dishonest because someone on slugger claimed 12 bands played the sash but you know it was really 6 is dishonestly trying to divert attention away from the fact that the actions of the bands involved was planned by them and the OO, were there no stewards on this stretch of road or have the leadership of the OO still not evolved enough yet to understand that it is they who hire these bands therefore they are responsible for what tunes they play.

  • PeterBrown

    Tacapall

    kenao’s posts in full

    “Just for the sake of further accuracy – Virtually EVERY single band that passed St Matthews Chapel on BOTH the morning and evening parades played The Sash. There was more than just a little coincidence going on there…”

    and more interestingly even than that

    “Peter,

    The local residents association recorded a group of 12 bands going past St Matthews of which 9 were playing The Sash. This is being To The Parades Commission. Therefore your information is not only totally inaccurate but your subsequent ‘squalid corner boy ‘ comment is completely out of order.”

    So there is a recording by the Residents of something that didn’t actually happen and I’ll leave you to draw your own conclusions about that – I am not diverting attention from the bands as I am critical of them in virtually every post but their actions do not justify fabricating evidence against them which only serves to further exacerbate the situation – do you agree or are you so blinkered that you (hopefully I have demonstrated unlike me) are incapable of being objectively critical of both sides? What evidence is there of of involvement by the OO in this (although even if there wasn’t there should be subsequent actiona aginst the bands)? Don’t tell me oyu have a recording from local residents of a meeting planning this within earshot of the Short Strand – if you do I might be a little sceptical…

  • changeisneeded

    hi peter..are you serious???
    Keep it up by all means but all your are doing is highlighting the fact the the orange order and their bands are nothing but shit stirrers..
    Your petty point scoring is sickening .. instead of dealing with the actual issues you would rather play a playground game in cyberworld…
    I dont like exaggerations either dude but if that is your only point then you don’t have a leg to stand on…
    The Orange Order is sectarian bullshit on a plate, thick as champ..yesterdays men, time to get over themselves and get lost for the benefit of Ireland..

  • eddie poole

    Imagine the reverse of the sitation. Tri-colours and Starry Ploughs erected outside a Protestant Church and republican bands marching down past that place of worship playng IRA ballads. Perhaps it has aready happened,perhaps not.
    Either way, how stomach-churningly embarrassed and sickened would I be at such an action?.The thought of then hiding behind a ‘PeterBrown numbers game’ rather than condemning those involved would merely seal my fate as an aplologist for the bigots.-No thanks…….

  • changeisneeded

    The orange order are to used to getting things their own way.. Time to shut that bigoted organisation down for the benefit of our children..

  • PeterBrown

    changeisneeded

    It might be a breach of copyright but…

    “Keep it up by all means but all your are doing is highlighting the fact the the residents groups are nothing but shit stirrers..

    Your petty point scoring is sickening .. instead of dealing with the actual issues you would rather play a playground game in cyberworld…
    I dont like exaggerations either dude but if that is your only point then you don’t have a leg to stand on…
    Residents Groups are sectarian bullshit on a plate, thick as champ..yesterdays men, time to get over themselves and get lost for the benefit of Ireland.”

    Reverse your argument and it is just as true – the only difference being that I am preapred to acknowledge the falws in the Order yet you and other (I Ran Away Keano10 being the prime example) and not prepared to accept that Residents Groups are less than perfect – its all the Huns fault and we therefore preserve our MOPE status inspite of the facts.

    Eddie

    I have condemned all those involved – therefore I am not sure what your point actually is?

  • SK

    “Reverse your argument and it is just as true – the only difference being that I am preapred to acknowledge the falws in the Order yet you and other (I Ran Away Keano10 being the prime example) and not prepared to accept that Residents Groups are less than perfect – its all the Huns fault and we therefore preserve our MOPE status inspite of the facts.”

    The Orange Order seek to match through a Catholic area banging drums and waving flags. All the Catholic residents seek is to be left alone.

  • PeterBrown

    SK

    For the slow learners among us it is not a Catholic area that is why the Determination had to be changed

  • “davenewman (profile) says:
    17 July 2011 at 12:29 pm ”
    ““These flags are small, that church is far away, Dougal.”

    Great comment Dave.

  • bumper14

    Isn,t it strange that some of the contributors to this thread think it an affront that “The Sash” was played past St Mathews yet do not seem to take offence at the fact that its grounds were/is used as an area to throw bricks, petrol bombs and fireworks at people and property on the opposite side of the road?

  • Isn’t it strange that some of the contributors to this thread cannot condemn a breach of the PC ruling and instead resort to whataboutery?

  • bumper14

    Reprobates from the Republican Short strand have attacked Loyalist Cluan Place again on Saturday night. As well as that they attacked Protestant houses at the end of the Newtownards road. These scumbags used snooker balls as missiles in this latest unprovoked attack. As usual the Lord Mayor was inconsistent in his condemnation as were the PSNI in their assertions as to who was to blame.

  • I thought that area was rundown working class since the jobs disappeared. How can they afford to throw snooker balls or are they trusting that they will be thrown back in the spirit of reuse and recycle?

  • andnowwhat

    Joe, see what I posted about Bumper on the Bread thread

  • vanhelsing

    Sectarianism is bigotry, discrimination or hatred arising from attaching importance to perceived differences between subdivisions within a group.

    Firstly [and I don’t have the time to reply to this one much], the Loyal Orders by their very rules and codes are not supposed to be bigoted. By definition in fact they must show charity and good will to their RC neighbours. Wait…

    I’m not saying there are not some bigots in the Orders, clearly there are. But the actual Loyal Orders forbid it. No one I know personally in the Orders is more or less bigoted than the rest of us.

    IMHO if they’re walking near an RC church they should just play hymns. Most of my friends in the LO would agree. I’m not a member.

    Equally residents groups in the past have heightened tension and some are the ‘dying to be offended brigade’ others have had terrorists or ex terrorists in them. Many sprung up as a SF invention. Noticed that SF was not extreme enough for Brendan McKenna GRRs and he has joined Éirígí 🙂

    David Hume [in the LOs] is doing great work – but more needs done.

  • Passing strange that everything that goes wrong is always the fault of themmuns.

  • andnowwhat

    Indeed Joe.

    Reminds me of a teenager ranting at his ma for finding his porn stash.

    Can’t see why themmuns can’t just let the orders do what they want, where they want. when they want.