The Queen’s Speech in Dublin Castle, 2011…

For the historic days that are in it.… There’s a section in there, that’s clearly devoid of some of the dryness that gets into these state affairs:

A Uachtaráin agus a chairde (President and friends).

Prince Philip and I are delighted to be here, and to experience at first hand Ireland’s world-famous hospitality.

Together we have much to celebrate: the ties between our people, the shared values, and the economic, business and cultural links that make us so much more than just neighbours, that make us firm friends and equal partners.

Madam President, speaking here in Dublin Castle it is impossible to ignore the weight of history, as it was yesterday when you and I laid wreaths at the Garden of Remembrance.

Indeed, so much of this visit reminds us of the complexity of our history, its many layers and traditions, but also the importance of forbearance and conciliation. Of being able to bow to the past, but not be bound by it.

Of course, the relationship has not always been straightforward; nor has the record over the centuries been entirely benign. It is a sad and regrettable reality that through history our islands have experienced more than their fair share of heartache, turbulence and loss.

These events have touched us all, many of us personally, and are a painful legacy. We can never forget those who have died or been injured, and their families. To all those who have suffered as a consequence of our troubled past I extend my sincere thoughts and deep sympathy. With the benefit of historical hindsight we can all see things which we would wish had been done differently or not at all. But it is also true that no-one who looked to the future over the past centuries could have imagined the strength of the bonds that are now in place between the governments and the people of our two nations, the spirit of partnership that we now enjoy, and the lasting rapport between us. No-one here this evening could doubt that heartfelt desire of our two nations.

Madam President, you have done a great deal to promote this understanding and reconciliation. You set out to build bridges. And I have seen at first hand your success in bringing together different communities and traditions on this island. You have also shed new light on the sacrifice of those who served in the First World War. Even as we jointly opened the Messines Peace Park in 1998, it was difficult to look ahead to the time when you and I would be standing together at Islandbridge as we were today.

That transformation is also evident in the establishment of a successful power-sharing Executive in Northern Ireland. A knot of history that was painstakingly loosened by the British and Irish Governments together with the strength, vision and determination of the political parties in Northern Ireland.

What were once only hopes for the future have now come to pass; it is almost exactly 13 years since the overwhelming majority of people in Ireland and Northern Ireland voted in favour of the agreement signed on Good Friday 1998, paving the way for Northern Ireland to become the exciting and inspirational place that it is today. I applaud the work of all those involved in the peace process, and of all those who support and nurture peace, including members of the police, the Gardaí, and the other emergency services, and those who work in the communities, the churches and charitable bodies like Co-operation Ireland. Taken together, their work not only serves as a basis for reconciliation between our people and communities, but it gives hope to other peacemakers across the world that through sustained effort, peace can and will prevail.

For the world moves on quickly. The challenges of the past have been replaced by new economic challenges which will demand the same imagination and courage. The lessons from the peace process are clear; whatever life throws at us, our individual responses will be all the stronger for working together and sharing the load.

There are other stories written daily across these islands which do not find their voice in solemn pages of history books, or newspaper headlines, but which are at the heart of our shared narrative. Many British families have members who live in this country, as many Irish families have close relatives in the United Kingdom.

These families share the two islands; they have visited each other and have come home to each other over the years. They are the ordinary people who yearned for the peace and understanding we now have between our two nations and between the communities within those two nations; a living testament to how much in common we have.

These ties of family, friendship and affection are our most precious resource. They are the lifeblood of the partnership across these islands, a golden thread that runs through all our joint successes so far, and all we will go on to achieve. They are a reminder that we have much to do together to build a future for all our grandchildren: the kind of future our grandparents could only dream of.

So we celebrate together the widespread spirit of goodwill and deep mutual understanding that has served to make the relationship more harmonious, close as good neighbours should always be.

  • Henry94

    we can all see things which we would wish had been done differently or not at all.

    For a second I thought she was going to say, “haven’t we Iris?”

  • joeCanuck

    It was a well written speech and she is to be commended for delivering it. There are many layers to it.

  • ranger1640

    Years ago the events that are taking place in Dublin would have been marked by the DUP and Paisley acting like proverbial spoilt children standing outside Dublin Castle in a huff. To-day its Adams and the Sinn Fein project who are standing alone, letting off balloons like spoilt children. The shinners are true to themselves in that they are themselves alone. The hole island is moving on and yet Adams, McGuinness and the Sinn Fein project are so principled that they wouldn’t visit the pope in Scotland, now they won’t visit their president and her guests??? But strangely they can go to 10 Downing Street, meet the prime minister the person who controls’ the security situation. In contrast the DUP seemed to have grown up at last, yet Adams the alleged statesman and Sinn Fein are running into that Cul-de-sec and taking their electorate with them. I suppose you only get who you vote for and if the past is your domain I suppose that’s the inevitable place you will lead your electorate!!!

  • I think Iris showed courage and style turning up today and in emerald green! Not having her resources Im having to save up for a toy boy. I laughed at the time but that’s just it: I saw it as funny not a sin.

    The speeches of both the president and the queen were very good I thought both went as far as could be expected by either side. The queen opening her speech in Irish said a great deal more than words. Well done all round.

  • As a general rule I dont engage with people I dont like. Theres always the mortal danger of ending up actually liking them and I certainly dont want that.
    To be frank, Id be outside the gates with Gerry.
    But to be equally frank…..so far….Mrs Windsor has not put a foot wrong or said a bi-lingual word out of place.
    Whether it was as difficult for her to be at the Garden of Remembrance or Croke Park as it was easy for her to be at Islandbridge.is hardly the point. The point is that she looked to the Future and her iconic stature among those who feel quite differently about her, her country and the institution of monarchy to the way I feel…in some way guarantees that “her” people will look more favourably on the institutions she came face to face with over two days.

    Thats a challenge to them.
    But Mrs Windsor perhaps challenged me too. And I really wish she hadnt because Im totally at ease with who I am.
    But there is another story here.
    “The Queens Visit”….yes.
    “The Presidents Welcome”…equally so.
    This was the crowning (no pun intended) achievement of Mary McAleeses years in office. Oddly the liberal elite has never embraced Mary McAleese preferring “one of their own” (Mary Robinson). I dont diminish Robinsons time in office…..timing is everything….but ultimately Mary II has delivered where Mary I did not.
    And it would be churlish not to say that Mrs Windsor went as far as protocol allowed to bring a certain coded regret and apology to the procedings and thats to be admired by reasonable people.
    Obviously.
    But not by me. Obviously 😉

  • Alias

    Queen: “Philip, dear, where does the ghastly phrase “these islands” refer to? Is it a place on the map?”

    Prince: “No, dear. It’s a euphemism for the British Isles.”

    Queen: “Well, dear, why doesn’t it just say the British Isles?”

    Prince: “It upsets the natives, dear. These islands is the state-approved way of suggesting interconnectivity without claiming territory and thereby undermining sovereignty. It means the same thing but they don’t get so uppity about it.”

    Queen: “I see, dear. Go raibh maith agat.”

  • @ranger1640

    Having read Jonathan Powell’s book on the peace process (Great Hatred, Little Room), I was struck by how much to and fro went on behind the scenes and how much party lines differed from what politicians then went out and said in public – on both sides.

    Adams/McGuinness were reportedly worried leading up to the GFA on many occasions about moving too quick, spooking some of the influencers within Republican movement and causing a large split.

    I suspect that Gerry Adams & Martin McGuinness have no real problem personally with the Queen visiting Dublin on the invitation of the President, but as we all know, the fringes of Irish Republican is still very volatile and the last thing they want is to fuel a recruitment drive to the dissident movement caused by them “accepting a cosy invitation for dinner with the head of the British War Machine” – I’m pretty sure that’s exactly how 32SCM etc would spin it.

  • latcheeco

    Did she refer to N.I as a knot of history that was being loosened? Jaysus fair play to her.

  • joeCanuck

    Mature republicans (small “r”) should be able to distinguish between a constitutional monarch and a Head of State.

  • joeCanuck

    Yes,
    It seemed that some people were hoping for an apology. I have always thought that public apologies for the misdeeds of others are totally without meaning. The most I would expect would be an expression of regret about past wrongs and I believe the Queen did that. She also correctly pointed out that we have close family ties. I have quite a few English relatives and a number of Scottish ones.

  • I think her exact words about Norn Iron were “a monstrous carbunkle on the face of an old friend”

  • “for Northern Ireland to become the exciting and inspirational place that it is today”

    Someone’s got a sense of humour. I suppose if you can’t laugh you’d cry.

  • perseus

    today marks the end of “bigotry” .. we are equals.
    Its official, no more excuses.

  • OneNI

    ‘Did she refer to N.I as a knot of history that was being loosened?’
    Nope she didnt

  • OneNI

    Shame we keep getting these grating references to ‘the Queen of England’. Its such a stupid, clumsy politcally loaded phrase – even ignoring Wales and Scotland. How childishly insulting
    Under the GFA the Republic relinguished their claim to NI and recognised that NI is part of the UK as long as the people of NIwish that to be the case. They de facto recognised that Queen Elizabeth II is Queen of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
    Get over it guys.
    Sorry rant over if it helps the Peace Process I can live with such nonsense

  • ranger1640

    barrymcgee

    As you said “but as we all know, the fringes of Irish Republican is still very volatile and the last thing they want is to fuel a recruitment drive to the dissident movement caused by them “accepting a cosy invitation for dinner with the head of the British War Machine” – I’m pretty sure that’s exactly how 32SCM etc would spin it”.

    This is exactly my point, Adams, McGuinness and the Sinn Fein project have cultivated this constant revisionism and they are the only ones on the outside!!! It speaks volumes about Adams and Sinn Fein’s political strategic thinking. The Adams alleged statesman’s image is now taking on a 60’s Paisley hue.

    They and their electorate need to look at the events and wake up and start smelling the coffee. If they don’t the only people that will be left behind will be the deprived republican areas that the shinners say they represent!!!

    The Andersonstown news that well oiled Sinn Fein propaganda sheet, will probably be full of the Queen at Croke Park, and the events of 90 years ago. Politically the Irish establishment have got over it. However the shinners will be in full revisionist mode, and if I were one of those who voted for the shinners I would be wondering? By being on the outside will it bring the job my children need, I think not!!!

    The shinners can’t have a Windsor about the place, that’s fine however it doesn’t bring jobs or put bread on the table. Wake up Adams and the Sinn Fein project, the past was put to rest this week.

  • Before her HM The Queen gave this speech I was proud and honoured to be able to say this lady was my Queen. I am tonight incredibly proud.

    Sure there will be a few carpers from the right side of the Shinners who will never be happy. Let them have their balloons. Even Fitz managed a begrudged congrats – that’s right isn’t it?

  • al

    @OneNI

    She’s the Queen of the Commonwealth realms.

  • There were two very good speeches this evening, neither made by SF who with their constant referrals to the English queen and releasing??? black balloons appear on the side lines as nothing more than juvenile irrelevancies.

    It may be that SF are afraid of losing their more hard line supporters but if they ever want to expand sufficiently to govern the south they must accept the realities of these islands.

  • Alias

    “Before her HM The Queen gave this speech I was proud and honoured to be able to say this lady was my Queen. I am tonight incredibly proud.”

    And so you should be. She makes our shower of gombeens and hacks look like, well, gombeens and hacks.

  • Alias

    I am revising my opinion of Mrs McAleese. I think she has matched the queen and smoothed the path. If our politicians are a bunch of gombeen wide boys our president has risen above them and in so doing has raised Ireland.

  • “It was a well written speech and she is to be commended for delivering it.”

    Joe, she may have fine-tuned it but I should imagine it will have been put together by a team from Lancaster House, London, in association with their colleagues in Iveagh House, Dublin. Presumably her speech should be read in conjunction with that delivered yesterday by the Foreign Secretary, William Hague.

  • GavBelfast

    The Queen played a blinder, so did President McAleese.

    A good day.

  • Obelisk

    Sinn Fein’s protest was alright and to be expected, it was a lot better than the rioting encouraged by the dissidents who think embarassing themselves on the world stage is progress.

    The Queen’s speech was dignified, the regret she conveyed that events between our islands, whilst not a full apology, i take it the true spirit it was conveyed and I appreciate the sentiment, and her words about the future. This Irish Nationalist admits he was moved by her words.

    President McAleese’s speech was equally as good, and fully in sync with what the Queen had to say. Listening to the two of them, I feel maybe there is hope for us all after all.

  • Ranger1640 “The shinners can’t have a Windsor about the place, that’s fine however it doesn’t bring jobs or put bread on the table. Wake up Adams and the Sinn Fein project, the past was put to rest this week.”

    Nice one. In some way Unionists, Nationalists, the good people of the South, the British Monarchy, the UK and the Republic of Ireland have moved on from the past. Pity that list doesn’t include everyone – not a Shinner in sight..

    Anyone else spot the irony of protesters carrying the flag of the Republic of Ireland fighting with the police of the South in Dublin, protesting against the Queen of the UK and the Commonwealth on a state visit:)

  • Alias

    Pipp, no one in Ireland gives a toss about Bloody Sunday at Croagh Park, who faught in which war, or aboutanyof the other nonsense that the NIO and Iveagh League mandarins write into the script. The whole thing has been a dismal farce aimed at protraying the Irish to be a bunch of bitter little Brit-haterswho need the elite to lead them away from their vices…

    McAleese, cohort of pimps, terrorists and extortionists, remains an unredeemable disgrace.

  • Driftwood

    Nevin, I doubt she even fine tuned the speech, which will have meant nothing to her. She just wants to see the horses at Kildare and go home, probably would have loved to have been at Punchestown this evening. The Queen owns the favourite for the Derby and that’s her forte.
    Media overkill on the academic front on UTV. Gushing stuff about ‘history in the making’ and lots of journalists nodding about the importance of it all. And then they moved on to the most important part of the occasion, Iris in her emerald dress, seemingly recovered from her mystery illness, with a healthy Florida tan. Well done those medics who were ‘treating’ her.

  • Driftwood

    Van Helsing
    Many of the protesters were wearing ‘foreign’ (British) Glasgow Celtic football shirts. Were Scottish republicans trying to hijack the event?

    On a bum note Jackie McDonald being there was just a low. They got that one wrong, he represents no-one except himself.

  • Alias

    “The whole thing has been a dismal farce aimed at protraying the Irish to be a bunch of bitter little Brit-haterswho need the elite to lead them away from their vices…”

    Nonsense, Ireland has been showcased brilliantly! what are you thinking? If anything the lack of crowds on the streets (which you have mentioned elsewhere) is an indication of how natural many people think this visit is. If I had not hurt my leg I would not have been watching these events and I would have missed seeing a stately Ireland which all of us should see more often.

  • Eunice

    I just really liked the part where she says, “I like these clinky glasses.”

  • “Nevin, I doubt she even fine tuned the speech, which will have meant nothing to her.”

    Driftwood, the Queen has been round the political course manys a time; various premiers may have drawn on her experience. I don’t think she’s a one trick pony.

  • latcheeco

    Drift,
    Why the animus towards Jackie? The UDA were only implementing British policy and more often than not with guns liberated from the Home Service.

    Pip,
    To imply people not turning out is a sign of their enthusiasm is classic.

  • Zig70

    I don’t think this will make any difference to my life. Historic – maybe. I’m in Italy, the guy who took me for lunch thought it would pave the way for England to give up the north. Why would they want it anyway? I explained that the majority wanted to remain part of the uk (big off me). He was surprised, but understood, and also eventually understood that most southerns didn’t care about the queen visiting ireland as much as any other englander visiting ireland. Just as long as they pay a good tip.

  • latcheeco

    LOL!!! I hate to spoil my image (so cute) but I didn’t mean to imply that. I thought of it as a sign of our indifference to a queen most of us are very used to, we have family there, we go for holidays and many of us work there. The royals are not strange enough for us, perhaps Obama will bring people on to the streets.

  • VanHehlsing

    “Even Fitz managed a begrudged congrats – that’s right isn’t it?”

    Absolutely not 😉
    You appear to under the impression that deep down I am a reasonable person and I have never knowingly been reasonable.

  • gréagóir o frainclín

    It has to be noted that the military ceremonies at The Garden of Rememberance and The Memorial Gardens have been marvellous.

    And Dublin Castle look wonderful in all it’s splendour, steeped in British and Irish history – Dublin the seat of power in Ireland and that all the trappings too, superbly preserved.

    We sure can put on a show when required. Plenty of family silver that we just don’t show off!

    The new and very distinguished National Conference Centre -the venue for Thursday night’s festivities being a modern addition.

    Oh and the Aviva Stadium looked great too for the UEFA Cup final tonight. Thousands of Portugese supporters in Dublin city.

  • Alias

    “Nonsense, Ireland has been showcased brilliantly! what are you thinking? If anything the lack of crowds on the streets (which you have mentioned elsewhere) is an indication of how natural many people think this visit is.” – Pip

    Is this typical of Mayo logic? It is why I drive the long way from Galway to Donegal.

    Wouldn’t the visit of the pope have been more “natural” to a catholic country than the vist of a monarch to a republic? To follow your logic, one million people didn’t show up at the Pheonix Park….

  • gréagóir o frainclín

    It has to be noted that the military ceremonies at The Garden of Rememberance and The Memorial Gardens have been marvellous.

    And Dublin Castle look wonderful in all it’s splendour, steeped in British and Irish history – Dublin the seat of power in Ireland which still has all the trappings too, superbly preserved.

    We sure can put on a show when required. Plenty of family silver that we just don’t show off!

    The new and very distinguished National Conference Centre -the venue for Thursday night’s festivities being a modern addition.

    Oh and the Aviva Stadium looked great too for the UEFA Cup final tonight. Thousands of Portugese supporters in Dublin city.

  • Meh

    Did my eyes deceive me or was Seamus Heaney placed at the Queens table,between David Cameron and the Duke of Edinburgh? How he must of squirmed as he stood and raised his glass to toast the queen! What about the green passports and toasts & all that Seamus? eh eh? someone, somewhere struck gold there..

  • latcheeco

    Greagoir,
    And who said they turned the tiger into a pussycat? Shame on them whoever it was.

  • Alias

    I have explained that I thought the lack of crowds was partly because many of us don’t think of the royals as particularly novel. Lighten up we are still a republic and it may even be that the republic is taking back the ‘republican’ title from those who have spent years abusing it.

  • Taoiseach

    OneNI – she can’t be Queen Elizabeth II of the UK of Great Britain and Northern; there was no Queen Elizabeth I of UK as there was no UK. She’s Elizabeth II of England, Elizabeth I of Scotland etc.

  • Billy Pilgrim

    Pip

    Hmmm. I think the massive security clampdown might go some way to explaining why the streets are empty….

    Of many sights in the last couple of days that I never thought to see, the most remarkable must be the sight of so many journalists working so hard to play DOWN the significance of a riot…

  • wee buns

    I just there now caught a glimpse of her on Vincent Browne and was taken aback by the sight of her wearing that tiara diamond thingy which she wears on stamps and coins; seems very OTT. Jeans and t-shirt and she really would have rocked it.

  • Agree with Billy Pilgrim that crowds have not exactly been encouraged, so far. The point of this visit hasn’t to do with ovations, however.

    It represents the pulling of a gigantic lever on the Anglo-Irish stage – new scenery (not trapdoors opening!).

    The Shinners were right to stay out. Note Adams referred to the Queen as ‘her majesty’ in his http://aprnonline.com/?p=85146 article (right at the bottom). There is unfinished business northwards – though the scene is set for that to be concluded definitively – one way or another – through plebiscite. They will have to beat drums until then – if only to drown out less predictable musicians.

    Teasing out British apologies (the question alluded to several times here) is only at root political skewering (but believed by many to be desired, despite this – endless repetition, the cause). The English shouldn’t apologise for identifying the strategic value of this island, which didn’t end until 1945 – both territories might now be, say, Spanish, hadn’t they. Odious religious bigotry, on the other hand, painting the Irish as a papist, superstitious sub-species, babbling an incomprehensible language, was a reprehensible route for them to crash down, but belongs to the era of violent, Christian schism, long past.

    If and when Irish unity (something I personally support) is achieved, even the Great Famine will become an item of intense historical interest, only.

    The Queen is an astonishing woman, riding the regal mare so adroitly, in her advanced old age – her long-held passion, about quieting those Irish and English antagonists, endearing her to anyone who felt it, whilst watching that magnificent speech.

  • glenda lough

    She missed a golden opportunity to apologise for the Ice Age. The Struggle continues!

  • Alias

    “Hmmm. I think the massive security clampdown might go some way to explaining why the streets are empty….”

    Well, Obama’s visit will soon test that theory. That said, security was very tight for the Pope’s visit. While probably the only Jew in the Pheonix Park, I remember him passing by in a bulletproof vehicle and lots of ramdom searches on the way there. It didn’t stop over one million people from showing up….

  • Alias

    “I have explained that I thought the lack of crowds was partly because many of us don’t think of the royals as particularly novel.”

    Upon mature reflection (to borrow a phrase from BL), some of that is true but I doubt it it is any more culturally significant or enduring than familiarity that comes from watching British TV and reading their newspapers.

    That was, after all, Conor Cruise O’Brien’s stated purpose in allowing the BBC and ITV to relay their British channels in this state. It’s true that he did undermine the prominence of Irish culture and promote British culture within the state, as his treason intended, but the head start that those decades gave to British culture to take root in this state will be undone in due course by the profileration of TV media from all over the world.

    So you might have read Mary Kenny (in your, ahem, age bracket) prattle on about British culture but that was then the only alternative offered to Irish culture, so that ‘invasion’ was purely transient and undone by other invasions. Hence, the biddies might have styled their hair like Diana but now they’d style it after some American rapper or French model just as quickly, and just as transiently. You wouldn’t think of a mafia godfather as particularly novel either, thanks to The Sopranos, whereas it all seemed wonderfully exotic 30 years ago. Sadly for Conor, his treason was undone by technology.

    While Ireland’s risible self-styled elite might think they are leading the people, the reality is that these slow-learners are following on years behind. Who exactly do they think wants an apology for Bloody Sunday at Croagh Park or cares about whichever war somebody’s grandfather faught in? Not a single sinner gives a solitary toss about that nonsense.

    But it was nice of the Queen to say a few words in the official language of the state since that risible elite gave aways Ireland’s sovereignty over the national language in a treaty between the United Kingdom and Ireland to a supranational authority. She now holds joint sovereignty over that language, so the least she could have done was learn a few words of it. However, promotion of the language has dramatically declined since the Irish people were hoodwinded into surrendering that sovereigty by their own treasonous elite.

  • joeCanuck

    Alias,

    I’m really sorry that your worries seem to make your life miserable. Is there any escape?

  • NoAttachmentToDust

    He’s worried because he’s lost some sovereignty, apparently Joe. Perhaps we can all club together and get him some for his next birthday?

  • gréagóir o frainclín

    Gas to see the likes of the misguided and deluded eirigi/sinn fein folk ‘protesting’ in defiance of the royal visit when in fact they should be directing their disgruntlements toward the ECB, the IMF and members of the last FF government.

    On the way home from work last night I saw a handful of them congregating on a street corner for one of their protests, such a rag taggle bunch of social misfits, track suits and hoodies their uniforms, ASBO’s their education qualifications.

  • Neville Bagnall

    Impressive speeches by both Heads of State.

    BTW, full text of the President’s is here http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/0518/breaking64.html

    For a state visit by the HoS of a european nation, the visit has probably attracted about the normal level of visible public interest.

    Of course, this is not just a normal european visit. The significance of the visit places it our of the ordinary.
    Thus far however, it has been a symbolic, formal and ceremonious visit. It may be that as the visit moves from the state functions to the cultural visits, the more human face of the welcome will be visible in front of the cameras rather than behind the closed doors and among the invited circle.
    Its also been obvious that security has been an overriding concern. It was never likely that the visit would attract people looking for a glimpse. If nothing else the Queen is not that sort of tabloid figure. So given the obvious distance that was being imposed for security reasons, sightseers were bound to be rare. Now a visit by the new Duke & Duchess…
    Of course there is also this. For all our curiosity about the British royal family, for all our welcoming of the normalisation of relations that this visit symbolises, she is not our Queen. Maybe remote welcome and interest is the greatest exemplar of normality we could wish for.

    Comparisons with the Pope and Obama completely miss the point. Both regularly attract large public audiences for public services/rallies. The Queen, except for British state and royal occasions, does not interact with the public in that way. Unlike Obama she will not be making a set-piece public address.

    Ceremony and symbolism. Its what the British Monarchy does best. And while we might not have the trapping of a monarchy, the Republic has its own equally meaningful variants.
    The capstone to it all was the state dinner, and between them, the two addresses delivered the message of this whole experience.

    [We are] able to bow to the past, but not be bound by it [for while we] cannot change the past, we have chosen to change the future.

  • foyle observer

    When is this woman going to strip Colonel Wilford, who directed the masscre of 14 innocent civilians in Derry of his medals, which she herself decorated him with, shortly after said masscre?

    When she does this, then we can say we’re making progress.

    Until then, let her visit Ireland until the cows come home, but until then, face it, she is not welcomed by the vast majority of this island.

  • Foyle Observer,

    Whilst I am waiting for you to reference your comment,

    “Until then, let her visit Ireland until the cows come home, but until then, face it, she is not welcomed by the vast majority of this island.”

    I’ll give you a ref:- 75% of people in the Republic of Ireland welcome the Queens visit:
    http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/features/2011/05/12/will-ireland-be-won-over-by-the-queen/

    Pity you couldn’t get beyond the whataboutery regarding Wilford – most people have moved on…perhaps I should cite some IRA atrocities- no wait – the vast majority of Unionists have moved on too. Stick to the black balloons…

  • foyle observer

    Vanhelsing,

    Not a single IRA man or woman has ever been decorated for their part in atrocities by an Irish head of state.

  • Neil

    Funny enough other opinion polls don’t seeem to tally with the opinion poll (which the Catholic herald don’t bother to tell us anything about) you’ve provided.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/polls/index.cfm?fuseaction=yesnopoll&pollid=8700

    56% in favour, 44% against. While it would be a mistake to conflate Protestant as being British, it is an easy way to account for the large number of British people who live in Ireland, and the Protestant Unionist people in Ireland. They make up 5% of the population, so at best around 50% of people welcome her.

    That means 50% don’t. You can swallow the line being pumped out by by RTE and the BBC but it seems fairly obvious to a large nuber of people she’s unwelcome. This can be verified by seeing how many people turn out to see her compared with her other engagements worldwide. I think you’ll find, if you can look at the situation in an unbiased fashion, that no-one’s turning out to welcome her, that a large group of people would rather she had stayed away, and that a significant minority would like to see her dead.

    Pity you couldn’t get beyond the whataboutery regarding Wilford – most people have moved on…perhaps I should cite some IRA atrocities- no wait – the vast majority of Unionists have moved on too. Stick to the black balloons…

    Maybe some Unionists have, but much in the same way the most bitter Nationalists get all the attention, so do the most bitter of Unionists. And I can go into any thread on this site to verify the references to the murderous republican movement, IRA atrocities, ‘the scum of West Belfast’ as mentioned a couple of weeks back by a new expert on that topic having visited Belfast Met once and seen that telling 100 yards of the Falls Road. It goes on and on and on.

    And for the second time in as many days we’re told by a British person to grow up and forget British atrocities. In fact you’ve gone one further and told us how Unionists have moved on (well for the next few weeks then it’ll be back to the good ole 17th Century, just like every other year). Personally I think it’s down to the victims of British atrocities to decide when to move on. It’s not up to the British to tell the victims of the British that it’s time to move on. If that worked I’d say to you and yours to move on and stop dredging up everything that happened in the past, but that wouldn’t work.

    I’m sure the families of the Bloody Sunday victims are happy you’ve moved on from Bloody Sunday, but I would doubt any of them have.

    New quote of the day ‘the vast majority of Unionists have moved on’. I’ll be sure to stifle my laughter at that the next time Alf/Ranger/Turgon/etc. etc. etc. drops by or indeed over the twelfth.

    But I reiterate my original point. My poll says your (referenced but no details given) poll is wrong.

  • Not my point, two problems,

    1. Whataboutery ‘what about the fact that the Queen…’ – I’m not going to entertain that – it leads to circles and trolling and gets no one anywhere.

    2. The majority of people in Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland welcomed the Queens visit as referenced in my last post.

    Simples

  • foyle observer

    I’m struggling to find the point where i engaged in ‘whataboutery’ to be honest, Vanhelsing.

    I simply made the point that until the queen strips Wilford of his medals, issued to him by the queen, only months after he directed the paratroopers on Bloody Sunday, where 14 unarmed civilians were murdered in cold blood, she will not be welcome in Ireland.

  • Neil,

    I could do polls with you all day: 65% support the Queens visit http://www.independent.ie/national-news/queen-should-visit-reveals-poll-500264.html

    @neil “56% in favour, 44% against. While it would be a mistake to conflate Protestant as being British, it is an easy way to account for the large number of British people who live in Ireland, and the Protestant Unionist people in Ireland. They make up 5% of the population, so at best around 50% of people welcome her.”
    Sorry I hope I misunderstand your point here – do only the people who consider themselves not British/Prod/Unionist count in such calculations according to your logic? Not a Prod about the place eh?

    If you want to play ‘swap atrocities’ go ahead or we can play ‘victimhoods’ [I agree with Fitz on this one] – won’t get either community anywhere.

    Sorry I don’t have a source for this one but the mood music in the last four days has been that everyone has mostly gotten over themselves – apart from SF and the dissidents. I was in an RC Grammar School today chatting with the staff who were praising HM The Queen on the speech she made – ‘very reconciliatory’. As I said no claim to quantitative data.

    Pity all SF could add to the party was some black balloons. I would have imagined fairly embarrassing for the good people of the South – who I’m sure SF want to unite with right? 🙂

  • Neil

    I could do polls with you all day: 65% support the Queens visit

    Of course the Indo might have that readership, what with the fawning articles, for example ‘thank God for squeezing us beside England’ (link on Nuzhound). Thank God indeed, tens if not hundreds of thousands of deaths thanks to our position, but at least we got a nice wee visit eh?

    Anyway just glad to see you moving in the correct direction from your earlier 75%. At this rate you’ll hit the 50% mark in two more posts.

    Sorry I hope I misunderstand your point here – do only the people who consider themselves not British/Prod/Unionist count in such calculations according to your logic? Not a Prod about the place eh?

    No, not my point. My point being that those folks would generally be predisposed to supporting the queen or monarchy and so would obviously vote in favour, (especially those people in NI who might respond to that survey). Which would leave approx 50% of ROI Republicans welcoming the queen. Whether Unionists welcome the queen is a bit of a red herring in terms of this argument. We can assume they do.

    Sorry I don’t have a source for this one but the mood music in the last four days has been that everyone has mostly gotten over themselves

    Would that be because your source is the beeb? Why rely on actual evidence, (ya know, crowds of protestors, a distinct lack of waving citizens, taped up post boxes and rings of steel).

    apart from SF and the dissidents

    I prefer the term Republican. And People before profit. And a variety of non Republican groups who oppose her visit on pragmatic grounds. Interesting though, that the media has decided to label every Republican group as ‘dissident’. It’s good to see the thought police have their shit together, smearing any group that won’t get the union jack out.

    I was in an RC Grammar School today chatting with the staff who were praising HM The Queen on the speech she made – ‘very reconciliatory’.

    Good for them. And she was. However that’s not really my concern. Nor am I trying to marginalise (as if I could) the views of the 1 in 2 people who support the queen in her visit.

    I’m just putting the lie to the idea that everyone thinks it’s just fantastic. RTE’s reputation is in tatters after the bullshit it broadcast over the financial crisis. The BBC is, well, the BBC. The clue is in the name. Both try to paint the visit as if people are out in their millions, over the moon about the queen’s visit. Cut to deserted street, noise of protestors in the background.

    Pity all SF could add to the party was some black balloons. I would have imagined fairly embarrassing for the good people of the South – who I’m sure SF want to unite with right?

    Don’t get it? I’m sure the 50% of people responding to the IT survey who said she shouldn’t come are happy that the Republican groups (or as the thought police like to say, dissidents), the actual dissidents, the leftie groups and SF have had the balls to stand do something. To be fair I wouldn’t have gone for the balloons option myself, I’d have gone for something a bit more hostile and visible.

  • The Raven

    “When is this woman going to strip Colonel Wilford, who directed the masscre of 14 innocent civilians in Derry of his medals, which she herself decorated him with, shortly after said masscre?”

    I wonder how the commenter would feel if the following had been written:

    “When are that lot in Derry going to stop whinging on Bloody Sunday, especially after the past few months, with enquiry outcomes and City of Culture stuff, investment handed to them on a plate? When they do this, then we can say we’re making progress. Until then, I suppose they’ll gurn on about it until the cows come home, but until then, face it – their MOPEry and constant whinging is not welcomed any more by the vast majority of of this island, who have diffs paying bills, getting decent medical help or just keeping a roof over their heads”

    Yeah. Pretty ridiculous to even think such a thing, isn’t it?

    I’d just like to cut-and-paste a quote used by Mick, in one of his posts, of the previous Bloody Sunday:

    “Queen Elizabeth was not born when Bloody Sunday occurred, and neither she nor any of her family had any association with it. This cannot be said of the Irish State, of which the third Taoiseach, Sean Lemass, was involved in the shooting of an unarmed army officer that morning — the one-legged Captain Baggalay, who was not involved in intelligence, but in civil administration.

    “His murder was an atrocious affair, but no intelligent person would seek an apology for such a deed in the middle of a very dirty war so long ago.”

    I think there’s a resounding point in there which perhaps should be applied in future discourse.

  • Neil,

    You’re right I think the polls don’t properly reflect the level of support. I would now put it higher than my original 75% after the good people of the Republic witnessed the last 4 days.

    I know I know, its the media’s fault, they’re over playing the success and popularity:) Rubbish.

    To be honest with you I think SF are trying to down play EVERYTHING regarding this visit now as they’ve suddenly realised they missed out on the party everyone else was at and everyone else has really enjoyed. Oh sure Marty or Gerry shaking HM The Queens hand might not have gone down well on their right hand side – what the hell!! It has been historic [well over used phrase] and SF excluded themselves – pity – but they have a fair distance to come yet!

    SF don’t make too many mistakes but they made one here and now they’re covering their asses because they realise everyone else seems fairly/very happy about it and they are the ones sulking in the corner with only erringle and the RIRA as more active skulkers:)

    Off to play tag rugby [a garrison sport] I believe 🙂

  • Mr Crumlin

    I think the Queens visit has been all about an open acknowledgement by the two states that they believe the Irish question has been answered.

    It is clear that Dublin and London see the GFA as the end settlement – the end of the process has been reached in their eyes.

    That leaves northern nationalism in a real quandry and throws unionism an equal amount of opportunity and challenge.

    The quandry for northern nationalism/republicanism is that they should relax, and accept the union is here to stay for quite a while. But I would argue that is not something to be downhearted about or fearful of. If we accept and acknowledge that Irish unity (in its truest sense) will not happen for a long time then this could create the space for unionism to make further moves.

    The opportunity for unionism is to convince nationalists that their future lies with the maintenance of the union. Embrace your Irishness and rejoice in its culture – stop marching where your not wanted but march til your feet hurt where you are. Give nationalism the space to feel their way into a secular Northern Ireland. Loosen the links with London – bring more powers to Stormont. Look to Dublin as a partner who has more in common with you than London.

    Do not see everything as a plot to Irish unity. If an all ireland policy makes practical sense don’t be afraid of it and embrace it. By the way the opportunities are also the challenge.

  • The Raven

    Superb post, Mr Crumlin. Really nails it. (except more powers to Stormont) 😉

  • Erasmus

    Eirigi = pathetic, fringe, lunatic minority.

  • Blowinginthewind

    Mr Crumlin, definitely agree with you. One of the most interesting ideas and developments is the increasingly ‘fuzzy’ border. People on both sides need to recognise that the legalities of a United Ireland are not the only important thing. De facto can be as powerful as de jure. So in these financially difficult times, it makes sense to share services etc across an increasingly porous border.

    I do think that this visit was positive and the Queen went further than anyone would have expected in their wildest dreams. To say that some things should not have been done, others differently and that rule was not always benign–she’s doing everything but beating her breast and saying mea culpa.

  • Neil (who was here at 2.28pm, today), you need evidence to be able to write:

    “I think you’ll find, if you can look at the situation in an unbiased fashion, that no-one’s turning out to welcome her, that a large group of people would rather she had stayed away, and that a significant minority would like to see her dead.”

    Where is it?

    The visit was the product of arrangements between two governments, neither operating under duress. If, as Edmund Burke would have put it, both were fulfilling their obligation to their respective electors to use their judgement, each may as well be respected for the course of action undertaken, as only fools would play politics lightly with something as important to both Ireland and England as the establishment of reasonable, political relations between the two.

    It can only be in that climate that the North, eventually, may secede entirely from Britain or, if by then Scotland has already done so, from English jurisdiction. So, it is worth not upsetting the apple cart – by, for example, citing the morbid aspirations of a few unnamed assassins – in the interim, although to an outsider it is clear that the loathing of the concept British (the monarch its clearest representation) is often accompanied by a greater loathing of the prospect of its absence and the luxuries in self-expression it affords.