Blood and Oil – the charge of hypocrisy is too easy

 So why not intervene in Bahrain, Yemen, even Saudi Arabia, the BBC among others asks? “Take it case by case,” is the holding reply. And then that little phrase “oil rich states” crops up. Is default cynicism the right reaction to the attacks on Libya or is it just  impotent chatter? Is there no middle way between doing nothing in Libya and launching a crusade ( good word!) against all Moslem despots? If the latter, we could stoically and ruinously accept oil rationing I suppose, like during a few days of the Suez crisis in 1956, or suffer another round of huge price shocks as in the 1970s on the back of the Yom Kippur war (which incidentally showed how little the oil producers were western puppets).

 Very often the critics of western “hypocrisy” are the same are those now reasonably demanding a cut in fuel duty. They may have a point, but once they’ve put it and when the cut or freeze  is made, what do we do with the other part of the argument? Follow the course over Libya. A couple of weeks ago the firmly pro-business Economist put the case for cosying up to Gadaffi in the past.    

The ostracism of the 1990s failed to shift Mr Qaddafi from power, despite its moral clarity. But it did help persuade him that he stood to gain from engaging with the world. That opened the door to some shabby deals. The release of one of Mr Qaddafi’s terrorists from a British jail, the sale of weapons to Libya and the elevation of a dictator into a statesman at the G8 all looked unwise at the time. Today they look despicable.

And yet Mr Qaddafi also made concessions that were worth something to the West, to the region and to Libyans themselves. The greatest of these was to give up his nuclear programme and help to blow the lid on the nuclear black market centred on Pakistan. Libya also stopped sponsoring terrorism in the West, though it continued to sow mayhem in Africa. And, hard as it is to remember just now, Libya’s people were less oppressed after their country rejoined the world.

Late February seems such a long time ago now. Without Libyan oil, the markets will go volatile for a while but without going so far as to plunge the world into a new oil crisis. Saudi Arabia and the Gulf oil states are a different kettle of fish. Their own internal situation and the unannounced Saudi intervention in Bahrain is causing piercing western headaches.

The Saudis tend to oblige when the West calls for them to turn on the taps a bit further to stabilise the world price, in exchange for continuing support for the regime, against Iran and the growing Iranian- supported internal Shia opposition. But with phenomenal economic growth continuing in China and India, they have other burgeoning markets in the East and  the old nexus may be loosening.

 This morning, as between the West and the Arabian regimes, the question “Who needs whom the most?” may have become an even more difficult call.

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  • Excellent post. Though no fan of Gadaffi, the real bold boys there are the Saudis who, lest we forget, launched the 9-11 attacks where the Bin Laden family were allowed leave the USA after the Twin Twoers came down.
    David Cameron was asked yesterday about Bahrain and he spoofed that it was an emeging democracy. No it is not. It is a Sunni dictatorship with Saudi storm troppers keeping the corrupt Sunni dictator in power against the wishes of the Shia majority.
    Why was Iran not asked to send peace keeping forces to Libya? What gives France, Britain and the US – by far the world’s major exporters of weapins of mass destruction – an excuse to intervene in a Libyan tribal war?
    Gadaffi is a nut case. He squandered his oil reveneues. But the biggest advance tht could be made in the Middle ceast is to destroy the Saudi Sunnis; most of the oil even there is in Shia lands anyway.
    Let us hope that China, Iran, Venezuela and other progressive countries will help move real democracy forward. This would entail the ousting of the Quisling Egyptian military and the corrupt quasi religious gangsters who rule Iran.
    Most of all, the ancien regime of the US and Britain and France propping up scum bag Arabs is not needed.

  • Dewi

    “Without Libyan oil, the markets will go volatile for a while but without going so far as to plunge the world into a new oil crisis.”
    Coupled with no Japanese and German nuclear power and building suspended in China it becomes a different ballgame.

  • Stieg

    ’45 berlin….britain,france,usa,

    ’11 libya…..france,usa,britain….

  • Stieg

    and the band played waltzin gaddaffai

  • Stieg: Regarding your cryptic post:

    1. The USSR defeated Nazi Germany. Whenb the USSR single handedly reached berlin, it was defended by French SS troops.
    2. Less than 200 troops hit the Normandy beaches on D Day.
    3. The Germans were shocked when France was one of their 1945 occupiers. This is because they had destroyed France in 1940.
    4. The USA made France a 1945 Great Power on its uisual divide and conquer principle.
    Today
    5. These self same imperialist powerws are doing another smash and grab oil grab.
    6. Why no intervention in Saudi Arabia/Bahrain? Why no intervention in Congo etc. where over a million have been killed and countless more raped?

    You believe your myths of White Anglo Francish Knights. Just know that there is a murky side to it. No wodner the West is hated and reviled. With friends like the saudi and Egyptian scum, how else could it be?

  • Stieg

    alan,as a libyan remarked on aljaz,take the oil,but please stop bombin my people.nothin cryptic there.

  • “He squandered his oil revenues.”

    Alan
    That is a sweeping statement, if so he made Libyans the most economically prosperous people on the continent of Africa.(See GDP etc) Even his opponents do not deny the health care and educational provision his regime has created for the Libyans.

    If you really want to talk about squandering oil revenues, you need look no further than the UK, when Thatcher ‘reformed’ the British economy away from manufacturing into finance, banking and the ‘markets’ and in the process created millions of unemployed whom she was quiet prepared to pauperism them in the long term by allowing them to live on unemployed benefits in the hope of taming them.

    The legacy of which is still with us, i e a solid block of people who have hardly worked since, and who are insulted in the MSM as the ‘underclass.’

    The Libyan people are in for a shock, by accepting the poisoned chalice of NATO they will live to regret it, as they will have no purchase on any incoming government who will be placed in office by western powers, elections or not. The type of welfare state which Libyan’s enjoyed will go the same way as those in Eastern Europe.

    By the way, to understand who is pulling whose strings it seems the rebels sacrificed by giving its coordinates to Nato, one of the old migs they controlled, in a successful attempt to bounce the Wests public onto the side of the warmongers.

    Whilst we are on about squandering tax coin, Cameron is no slouch; it will be us dopes who pick up the tab for Cameron foolish and unnecessary war. What better way than a war to camouflage what is happening in the UK.

    This in no way means I support Gaddafi, like the Germans and the rest who abstained at the UN, I just firmly believe any military intervention in an Arab country just makes a bad situation worse. Still, the one thing Cameron and the rest fear was a peoples revolution and what better way to put a stop to it than a hot war, I suppose this will be the end of the Arab spring.

    There is a pathetic, but very nasty type of Englishman who still believes they have a god given right to intervene in other peoples problems. Never mind it always leads to disaster or the west was partly responsiby for creating these problems in the first place. If you look at all these military adventures the only real beneficiaries are the multinationals who are brought in to do things which the locals used to do for themselves.

    By the way when did men with guns become civilians under the UN charter?

  • Stieg

    kuwait-oil
    iraq-oil
    venezuela-oil
    afghanistan-oil
    egypt-oil
    libya-oil

  • MickHall

    1. Thatcher and Scottish oil: Well, yes.
    2. Gadaffi: Libya has no infrastructure. There is only 5 million people and he should have put money into building the country, not building unsustainable air forces etc that his suppliers can knock out with a puff of air. I guess if you have oil, you gotta protect it or the Yanks will come a calling.
    3. Shiites: They are being shafted in Bahrain by the scum of the scum, the Saudis. Now if I were a Shiite in Iran, I might be asking my government to stand up for our side.
    4. I know plenty of Iranians and they all hate their corrupt government. But blood is thicker than water.
    5. Enmities have long roots: Belfast, Bosnia, Bahrain. But outside forces stoke them up and in Libya and Bahrian, it is deja vu.
    6. To me, the West has no moral authoritiy at all. But they do have the logistics and firpower and there ain’t no smart ass post gonna stop that.
    7.Jesus will have to weep on. None of this rank hypocrisy will end until China wins.

  • Stieg

    None of this rank hypocrisy will end until China wins.

    …and there’s me tinkin,the chinese had a shit football team…

  • Stieg

    ..and the band played waltzin wit stalin…

  • joeCanuck

    It’s all about oil.
    No, it isn’t.
    Yes, it is.
    No, it isn’t.
    Yes, it is.

    Oh to be a fly on the wall in the White House or Downing Street.

  • Stieg

    oil?i thought they were fightin for the sand

  • oracle

    The U.N resolution allowed for the implementation of a controlled “no-fly zone”

    It did not mandate the wholesale bombardment Libya and absolutely did not constitute the military involvement in the support of one side only

  • oracle

    The number of slugger posters who try to justify the blowing to bits of women and children by the Western Governments as progressive… gallant and heroic

    yet branding actions against the West as sick cowardly terrorism is remarkable

  • oracle

    I just wonder do they not value these human beings because they are regarded by them as nothing more than

    “Niggers Wogs and Wops”????

    would they bomb Sweden Denmark France Canada or Holland just as quick… I very much doubt it

  • joeCanuck

    What’s your point, Oracle?

  • “would they bomb Sweden Denmark France Canada or Holland just as quick… I very much doubt it”

    Oracle

    I would not put anything past this lot if they thought there was a kickback from it

    More seriously what happened to Clegg’s restraining influence on Cameron, bar being Libyan, can you think of anything worse than being a Lib dems these days. Clegg and Cameron are lining it all up nicely so when the lib dem base finally have enough, the quislings in the government can slide into the Tory party effortlessly, thus maintaining the Tory majority.

  • Stieg

    would they bomb Sweden Denmark France Canada or Holland just as quick

    ….aren’t the french bombin the libyans?….

  • Mick Hall: Good point re the Lib Dems. One thinks of the Greens and the Labour Party in the South.
    Here we are, sniping on this site. And yet David Cameron can do a Tony Blair on the the BBC. One wouild have imagined that after their collusion with the terrorist Mubarek regime to say nothing of the Saudi savages, the Brits et al would STFU. But then one does not understand the force for evil the West represents.

  • Stieg

    they’d sell sand to the arabs
    water to the irish
    bananas to the africans
    frogs to the french

    gandjai to the jamaicans
    gaelic to the welsh
    catholicism to protestants
    goedlic to the scottish

    meat to vegetarians
    capitalism to socialists
    dollars to the americans
    sterlin to the english

    but oil,that’s an entitely
    different matter

  • qwerty12345

    Gadaffi had his moment for a ceasefire – he didnt play ball. Benghazi was attacked. Bombing starts.

    Anyone see the pics of the shelled areas in Benghazi btw, not exactly what you would call very focused. Oh and stieg I saw the same report on al jazeera you mention – the man you quote was actually in Benghazi and talking about qadaffis shelling not allied bombing.

    Western powers were probably going to bomb in any case. And their motives are their own lets not be naive BUT lives will be saved by this.

    I hope and pray as few Libyans are killed as possible.

    btw Brian why do you identify Arab dictators as “moslem despots” most of them are as “moslem” as western leaders are Christian, best not to confuse their faith or lack therof with their actions.

  • Stieg

    Anyone see the pics of the shelled areas in Benghazi btw, not exactly what you would call very focused. Oh and stieg I saw the same report on al jazeera you mention – the man you quote was actually in Benghazi and talking about qadaffis shelling not allied bombing.

    …54321….mmmm….i thought the poor fellow was actually
    just pissed off about eh,bombs,bombs an’ more bombs…
    i do apolagize….

  • oracle

    Querty123,

    you said “BUT lives will be saved by this.”

    COULD YOU POSSIBLY EXPLAIN TO ME HOW?

    Do you have any past experience of this….????
    Can you give me an example where this has been the case before???
    Can you give me exact numbers for either saved or killed in this action??

  • SDLP supporter

    Slightly off topic, but had to laugh at Martin McGuinness in the Irish News yesterday: ‘I was never a supporter of Gaddafi. I never met him’. Yeah, Marty, you never met Fr. Chesney either until someone provided proof that you had.

    Of course, Marty’s main whine is that Cameron has not found time meet himself and Robinson. According to Marty, Obama’s team were “gobsmacked” and “shocked” that Cameron had not met them for the past eight months.

    What a buffoon McGuinness is.

    Yeah, will all that’s going on in the world, Libya, Irad, Afghanistan, Japanese earthquake, economic and financial crisis and all Obama’s guys are worried about is that Peter and Martin’s noses are a bit out of joint.

  • oracle

    Querty,

    Why was the rebel jet allowed to fly and bomb for over 2 hours yesterday in a no-fly zone and would still be doing so if it hadn’t been shot down in a friendly fire incident (reports say it was a foreign force action which brought down the jet) how was this then friendly fire?

  • Stieg

    they’d sell indians to the canadians
    sex to the swedes
    pastry to the danish
    football to the dutch

    42351

    they’d sell peace as war
    windows as doors
    but oil won’t mix wit
    the water

  • oracle

    Arab league disgusted by military bombing of Libya

    “What is happening in Libya differs from the aim of imposing a no-fly zone, and what we want is the protection of civilians and not the bombardment of more civilians,” said Arab League Secretary General Amr Moussa.

    it was the inclusion of the Arab league that allowed the no-fly zone to be passed at the UN

  • Stieg

    what’s the american guy who started dis darn peaceful revolution called?isolate the militants?mmmmmmmmm

  • Stieg

    Stieg: Regarding your cryptic post:

    1. The USSR defeated Nazi Germany. Whenb the USSR single handedly reached berlin, it was defended by French SS troops.

    Q?A=did u know dear fellow,that stalin released a horde of criminals from his prisons to fight for mother russia,and then sent the survivors to the GULAGS.

  • Stieg

    SDLP supporter (profile) says: 20 March 2011 at 4:10 pm Slightly off topic,but had to laugh…..

    …and now the sun is sinkin low…

    …and now the sun has dissappeared…

  • SDLP Supporter: Now that McGuinness’ mates like John Noonan are being investigated by Dublin’s CAB, the heat might well be on. Given that he does not like Gadaffi and never supported him, if both are convicted at The Hague, they could be caged in different pens. For Ireland to regain her international name, people like Adams and McGuinness have to stand trial and get natural life tariffs.Poor Obama having to look at nonentities like McGuinness.

    On the bright side: Qatar is going to start killing Libyans too so maybe Qatar will feel the pinch too.

    How quickly the Crusaders could rally against Libya and how slowly in more extreme cases such as Congo. Al Qaeda must be laughing.

  • qwerty12345

    Oracle if Gadaffi takes Benghazi you will see the same thing happening as when Saddams men retook Basra and its environs after gulf war 1. Or maybe you think Gadaffis human rights record will suddenly improve?

    As for your question as to where this approach has worked before – go ask the kosovans and Bosnians. Lives were certainly saved there.

    On one side you have a rag tag army with some defected military units and on the other you have all the armaments that Gadaffi has been able to buy for years.

    I dont support the west very often, but if their actions help see the back of Gadaffi, well, good.

    Now perhaps you might tell us why you want a situation to continue which will see Gadaffi back in full control.

  • Stephen D

    AlanMaskey

    When you wrote “Less than 200 troops hit the Normandy beaches on D Day” you do realise that marked the point when you passed from being regarded as an amiable Stalinist nutcase to totally demented, don’t you?

  • Nunoftheabove

    qwerty12345

    Quite right; it was the initial isolationist tendendency’s refusal to do anything about the fascistic Serbs that allowed over 200,000 to die in Bosnia needlessly – they did get it right in the end and the lesson was learned by the time came to save the Kosovar Albanians against aggression from the same source. I do wish that some of these parochial isolationist types would at least have the decency to admit that (i) there are times when non-intervention is in itself a form of intervention and that non-intervention often has very grave consequences; and (ii) that they do not give a shit about the lives of oppressed people in some of these states.

    They really should be held accountable for stating if not implying that this is a principled position to take and that their agenda is pacifist and/or humanitarian – it’s not untypically absolutely nothing of the sort.

  • qwerty12345

    And the USA, UK and France’s human rights record when it comes to dealing with Arabs is good?, er let me think, Algeria, Palestine, Fallugah, now remind me who was it who first used poison gas in Iraq, to be truthful the Wests list of war crimes against Arabs is bloody endless and goes back years, or do you believe it is only westerners who suffer historical hurt. Need I go on and mention the so called command control bunker in Baghdad in which Iraqi women and children were burned to death when alive.

    The point is the USA and UK have a long history of mistreating Arabs, often in the most dreadful and brutal way.

    By the way were is old Osman, or is he so last year as the the wests evil enemy?

  • Nunoftheabove: One of the things leading to the wars of the Yugoslav succession was the preemptor recognition of Croatia by the Vatican and the FRG. The Serbs had a point.

    My point is simple and it holds: outside intervention often makes things worse for the simple reason that outside forcces do not act selflessly.

    Italy is now going to join in on the terror attacks on Libya. Italy is the former colonial master and the Italians were total savages in Libya, right up there with the Belgians. No ItItalian ever did a day in jail for their monstrous crimes in Libya, Ethiiopia and elsewhere. And yet here they go again.

    The West are savages. We are like Gemrans in May 1945, who cannot believe the evidence. The Germans, I guess, had some excuse. We have none.

    DEven look at The hague where Gadaffi, McGuinness and Adams should go. based in the Netherlands (gave us the slave trade) and Yanks are immune from prosecution.

    It reminds me of that statue of Justice outside Dublin Castle: back to the people of Dublin and the scales tilted.

  • qwerty12345

    Mickhall, every single thing you say is correct, however dont let your distrust of the west get in the way of realising what Gadaffis rule really means to Libyans.

    If that nutbag retakes Benghazi there will be a bloodbath. I see the regime is now talking about a “peace march” to Benghazi, pity they couldnt have done that before shooting their fellow citizens dead in the street for asking for reform.

    Gadaffi will not allow reform, he wont ever allow free elections. To not act means he will retake all the rebel areas. That will mean another generation under him and his sons.

    Lets not get this one wrong, Im a leftist, im also proud to say Im an Arabphile. I dont want to see libyan conscripts die so that Ayesha Gadaffi can continue to powder her nose.

    As for the long list of crimes the west has commited against Arabs – long as that list is – it isnt as long as the list carried out by Arab dictators on their own people (often with western approval). File Gadaffi in that trash bin and hope that he goes quickly and that the Arab spring spreads.

  • qwerty12345

    I see that that noted hawk Desmond Tutu is supporting the airstrikes too.

  • Stieg

    Key Steps on the Path to Revolution – Gene Sharp book

    • Develop a strategy for winning freedom and a vision of the society you want
    • Overcome fear by small acts of resistance
    • Use colours and symbols to demonstrate unity of resistance
    • Learn from historical examples of the successes of non-violent movements
    • Use non-violent “weapons”
    • Identify the dictatorship’s pillars of support and develop a strategy for undermining each
    • Use oppressive or brutal acts by the regime as a recruiting tool for your movement
    • Isolate or remove from the movement people who use or advocate violence

    1)Develop a strategy,ie,bomb every town from kuwait to libya for oil,oil and more oil.vision=oil for america
    2)Overcome fear by small acts of resistance=overcome resistance through absolute war
    3)black/white presidents=no colour difference
    4)• Learn from historical examples of the successes of non-violent movements=cia in venezuela
    5)• Use non-violent “weapons”=are the american army hippys?
    6) Identify the dictatorship’s pillars of support and develop a strategy for undermining each=who’s dictatin the armed offensive alongside the americans?france?britain?
    7) Use oppressive or brutal acts by the regime as a recruiting tool for your movement=who killed the most civilians since ww2,america,france or britain?
    8)• Isolate or remove from the movement people who use or advocate violence=is the allied offensive been run by pacifists?

    From dictatorship to democracy=From democracy to dictatorship.American style

  • Stieg

    oil,oil and more oil,the charge of hypocrisy is to easy

  • andnowwhat
  • andnowwhat

    Here’s an idea for a blog by Mick Fealty, Peter Baker or whomever..does Cameron have the balls for a war?

    Blair was an idioalog, insane in my personal view, but he had a strength to bring a nation to war(s).

    Thatcher etc. had that but I do not see that in Cameron. is that a measure of the man as a premier?

    I would love that to be discussed here

  • Andnowhat: I would say Cameron would make a good fishmonger: skin and gut you and not miss a beat on his smarmy face.
    The Yanks say jump and the Brits/French say how much. I see the Yankee oil thieves are going to hand over control of the murder of Libyans to these Anglo French brigands. Make them feel important and “part of the team”. They might even get a few reconstruction projects out of it. The Chinese can whistle.

  • lamhdearg

    hamas has said it fired on israel, first time in two years.

  • http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12799772

    Guess you missed this Lamhdearg. Only another two dead Arabs so no big dea I guess.
    I guess the big thing is how the West’s aggression plays out in the Arab world. Egad, the natives are getting restless elsewhere. Gooid luck to them.

  • As for the long list of crimes the west has commited against Arabs – long as that list is – it isnt as long as the list carried out by Arab dictators on their own people (often with western approval).

    qwerty12345

    For all their sheer dreadfulness, a single Arab dictator has not in the last ten years been responsible for killing and maiming five hundred thousand Arabs plus in a single country, and driven between two to four million into exile. Unlike the USA has in Iraq; and you who claim to be on the left are asking me take the very same people on trust in Libya.

    You cannot export social system on the end of bayonets nor simply because you have good intent.

    If you wish go ahead and become a cheer leader for post imperialist powers fine, that is for you, I prefer to sit this one out, like those nations who have leaders with a modicum of common sense.

    As with Iraq, this war started with deceit and lies and what ever its outcome, I want no part of it, after Iraq and Afghanistan, how any rational being can give the benefit of the doubt to the US and UK governments is beyond me.

  • lamhdearg

    no miss alan,
    game on.

  • Lamhdeard: It is not a game. There are a group of people, Palestinian Christians and Muslims, who have driven beyond despair by Israeli thieves. Last time I checked, over 70% of them supported suicide bombing – a real sign of despair.
    Lion cubs, when attacked by a predatory lion, will try to defend themselves even though it is no contest. Palestinians are the same: pea shooters against America’s proxy.

    Mickhall: You are making a series of excellent points so full credit to you. One quibble: the Arab dictators are America’s tools. The only exceptions in that regions are Libya and Iran and look at the plans for them. Saddam was a good guy until he stopped being America’s puppet.
    If there is an Islamic wave from the Arab world, the West can take its share of the credit. The Arabs must regard us, with good reaosn, as being less than dogs.

  • qwerty12345

    Mickhall, I didnt ask you once to trust the US or the UK or France. I asked you to put yourself in the shoes of a resident in Benghazi hearing Gadaffis shelling getting closer.

    If you were that person I bet youd put your distrust of the west on hold for a bit, and so would I.

    Your line about the export of social systems is a weird one – and there was me thinking that the popular uprisings that are going on across the Arab world are indigenous.

    Your “cheerleader for post imperialism” jibe would be insulting if it wasnt so funny. It certainly is instructive about the quick fire predjudice that WE on the left sometimes engage in. Do you think it makes me feel comfortable to have to say the Brits and Yanks are right this time?

    Yeah you sit this one out with all those leaders with a modicum of common sense, the dictators and loons in the Arab league and the dictators and loons in the African Union, oh and those titans of human rights the Russians and Chinese. Every player in this is dirty, except for the Libyans who want a better life.

    Perhaps you might tell me what the alternative is? Let Gadaffi win? is that really what you want?

    —-

    I see Syria has awoken too.

  • joeCanuck

    I see Syria has awoken too.

    Yes. Is the end in sight for dynastic dictators? Hopefully yes. I don’t think Assad will last long unless he adopts Gaddafi’s solution to the peoples demand for freedom.

  • Hopefuly Iran will help Syria if Western terrorists attack.

    The worst offenders, the worst dictators, the worst abusers o fhuman rights are those with large Western backing. Let’s not forget the SaS in Oman but Mubarek’s Egypt, the scum kingdom of Saudi Arabia, the Sunni apartheid state of Bahrain, Yemen, Israel are all affronts to human dignity.

    Stil the war lords can spin their silly tales of spreading democracy, saving lives (what a joke that one) and set up the Total/Exxon Republique de Libya.

  • Rory Carr

    I hear John Humphries a little earlier this morning tell us that “we are bombing Tripoli for humanitarian reasons”. So that’s all right then.

    Can’t be long before “we” find it necessary to “destroy the village in order to save it”.

  • joeCanuck

    And we are not targetting Gadaffi while a cruise missile destroys one of his compounds. Who said that the first casualty in any war is the truth?

  • joeCanuck

    And don’t get me wrong. He is a brutal murdering meglomaniac and I have no problem with him being targetted. It’s the lies that I can’t abide.

  • qwerty12345

    alanmaskey wrote: Hopefuly Iran will help Syria if Western terrorists attack.

    Yeah, good old Assad.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hama_massacre

  • Stieg

    gerry adams,february 2011,pre-election promise-we’ll burn the bondholders

    peadar toibin(wit a fada)rte,march 21,2011-We must pay the sovreign debt

    (what did stalin say about useful idiots?????)

    And don’t get me wrong. He is a brutal murdering meglomaniac and I have no problem with him being targetted. It’s the lies that I can’t abide.

  • “Mickhall, I didnt ask you once to trust the US or the UK or France.

    qwerty12345
    Think that through, of course you are, look, I do not doubt your motives for supporting this war, I simply believe you are mistaken as those who are behind the war on the Libyan regime have no history of supporting the little guy at home, let alone abroad, and you are well aware of that.

    The similarities of what is occurring in Libya are with the Rumania ‘revolution,’ not Tunisia and Egypt, when a clique of former Ceausescu loyalists, and spooks, along with others who had once served the regime over threw a dictator in what amounted to a coup.

    As the rebels are in Libya today, they were very skillful in manipulating the Western media, which raises questions about the UK governments roll in lighting this fireball

    Yes the dictatorship was unpopular in Rumania, as it is in Libya, but it does not make it a peoples revolution. Take a look at the two senior posts in the Libyan rebel group, one is a former minister of justice (of all things) in the Gaddafi regime, the other a very senior general.

    If you are supporting this war because you think it is wrong to do nothing about Libya, then you are not asking the right questions.

  • JAH

    The Romanian analogy is probably the best one. In Libya, like Romania in the absence of any opposition, only members once loyal to the leader have the ability and means to topple the regime. As the return of exilers prived in Iraq they have liitle following. Of course they could grab power for themselves, but it didn’t happen in Romania which is now signed up to the EU.

    As any student of revolutions knows, once out of the bottle, it is hard to put the genie back.

  • oracle

    Querty123.. JAH… or bombing supporters

    I painted this scenario on another thread recently and received no responses or answers from anyone on Slugger, so I’ll put it forward again; it’s basic and crude but close enough for even the simple-minded to draw comparisons.

    How would those supporting the attack on the legitimate government of Libya feel if the Real IRA in Derry took to the streets under force of arms and attacked PSNI stations?
    The world media then descended on say Derry and Strabane and spewed out to the world via newspapers, magazines, radio, terrestrial TV, the Internet, and Cable TV on a daily and hourly basis that the Rebels were putting up a courageous fight for freedom and civil rights! Sound familiar?

    These media people showed Free-Derry corner and the spirit of resistance in the area zooming in close at eye level to very small crowds to make them look much bigger than they actually are, look familiar? The unionist people of the greater Belfast area swamp the city hall in hundreds of thousands in support of Peter Robinson’s leadership and Northern Ireland in General but these totally biased media outlets zoom close in again at eye level to hide the large numbers of Robinson supporters, even suggesting that many were only there because they were forced at gunpoint by the DUP, does that look and sound familiar?

    These media people referring to the massacre of civilians at civil rights marches in Derry at every opportunity, and as an example of the horrors of Catholics living in Northern Ireland, show the infamous Castlereagh torture centre that every Catholic with an education is taken to.
    The world leaders then coming on TV to have their tuppence worth about the evils of Peter Robinson and his family and their big homes and how his diplomatic immunity must be stripped and there must be sanctions and actions and even the International court for war-crimes being suggested!

    Martin McGuiness while at the whitehouse trying to generate business for Northern Ireland resigns as DFM and asks for political asylum, so China and Korean recognize the Real IRA as the legitimate government of Northern Ireland! Sound familiar yet?

    China Libya North Korea and the Republic of Ireland go to the U.N and with their financial clout and friends network manage to secure a No-Fly zone over Northern Ireland the deal clincher being the promise to Wales and the Isle of Man that it would be just that a no-fly zone and diplomatic talks to bring about a cease-fire.

    Buoyed by the Derry-Strabane revolt the smugglers of Crossmaglen and Forkhill seize large areas of South Armagh and the PSNI is forced into action on two fronts, they call upon the English troops in Holywood barracks and other army bases to come to their aid and when they do they are branded by this horde of media as mercenaries. Sound familiar yet?

    So the Army and PSNI respond and boot the arses off the smugglers and back to Crossmaglen and the RIRA out of Dungiven and Strabane and back into Derry and eventually back into just the Bogside then suddenly WHOOSH….. North Korean Missiles take out Stormont, Holywood Barracks, Aldergrove RAF, Antrim road PSNI holding station, Thievpal barracks and the Knock PSNI head quarters.
    Chinese jets cluster bomb convoys of PSNI jeeps heading to Limavady and Sion-mills killing them all. Would you think it a great day for democracy and diplomacy then?

    Wales and the Isle of Man now realise that they were conned by the Chinese into supporting the action and without them the action would have looked like an attempt just to steal the Lough Neagh eels fishing ground, (the Chinese and Koreans love eels) so they voice their concern but it does not stop the wholesale bombing of unionist areas.
    The RIRA now come out of the Bogside again and with support of the Chines jets retake Strabane Dungiven Claudy and Limavady, with the talk now of an enforced internationally recognized peace line just past Toomebridge with the Western areas given over to the RIRA including the control of the Lough Neagh eels and the smugglers or Crossmaglen being given all of Armagh and South Down.

    NOW TELL ME DOES IT RING A BELL NOW!

  • joeCanuck

    Oracle,

    If you’re hearing bells in your head you are probably suffering from tintinitis. If I were you I would go and see a doctor. There may be a remedy which would likely involve a psychiatrist.

  • oracle

    Joe,

    I stated at the start

    “it’s basic and crude but close enough for even the simple-minded to draw comparisons”

    Clearly you have proved me wrong……..

  • qwerty12345

    No offence Oracle but I started laughing at “legitimate government of Libya” and almost choked at “totally biased media outlets zoom close in again at eye level to hide the large numbers of Robinson supporters” which reminded me of Libyan telly not a week ago showing a small number of gadaffi supporters with the camera angled to make them look like a huge crowd.

    Mickhall, last I heard Benghazi was being run by a 13 person committee including lawyers, doctors, intellectuals. perhaps you have seen them on Al Jazeera. It looked like Cairo not Bucharest. Inevitably these people will deal with former Qadaffi loyalists, after all these are the ones with experience of military command and hardware.

    I hope you are wrong, I hope the people who started this win and arent sidelined by former regime types. The analogy you use is actually closer to what has been going on in Tunisia.

    I dont want to see libyans being killed by American bombs no one does but Qadaffi had his moment to halt and he went on, he must have known what would happen. He doesnt care what happens to his troops he lives in la la land with his Ukranian nurse. Is it four or five members of his family who hold top government posts…boy they must be a really capable bunch the Qadaffis and popular nay Legitimate if we believe Oracle.

    Just think some of the men who fought the yanks in Iraq may now fight gadaffi effectively with western air cover.
    http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/features/2011/03/2011318121134680476.html

  • oracle

    Querty,

    Why would you laugh at legitimate Gov of Libya, who built the schools, staffed the schools, staffed the hospitals, ran the police, collected taxes, exported oil, runs hundreds of embassy’s and stamped your passport?

    now instead of being dismissive you’re only advertising a capacity to just be silly…

    As for the camera angles it was a direct reference to 2 BBC reports and a SKY one which are totally different from the Al-jazzerra one’s on the same days at the same protests.

    You’d be a magicians dream audience, he wouldn’t need any skill at all to decieve you as your already wearing a blindfold

  • Zig70

    democracy seems to create such power hungry leaders that they’ll start wars to avoid being ousted. What’s going to happen when we have loads of democracies in the middle east? Who are they going to start wars with?

  • andnowwhat

    IMHO, the only thing the UN should have done ios to put a toe up the Arab’s collective arses and tell them to sort this out.

    What the hell do they want all those lovely war toys for FFS?

    Same goes for Africa. It is most probably age but I’ve got to the stage where I no longer give a frig about Mugabe’s murderous rule. Fek it, if African nations do not care, why should I/we? I I always hated that point of view but nations such as S Africa are strong enough to police their own region.

  • Greenflag

    @ zig70,

    ‘Who are they going to start wars with?’

    Not to worry Wall St and the still unregulated financial sector and the bigger than ever banks that can’t be allowed to fail will start the ball rolling by either ‘destroying ‘ any economies they might have or bribing their ‘democratically elected ‘ leaders just as they did in the USA , and UK and of course in Ireland and Iceland and still nary a one of them has gone to jail . I read our new Justice Minister Shatter has sent for the ‘Garda ‘ file on investigations which though 2 years ongoing have yet to be eh ‘finalised ‘

  • JAH

    Oracle

    I assume you didn’t watch Panorama tonight.

    It was clearly only crusader propaganda which showed unarmed thugs attacking armed heroes of the Libyan Army with their bare hands. What can an armed Libyan revolutionary do when faced by an unarmed Al Queda loving, drug fuelled gangster crusader but shoot him in the head? Indeed how dare anyone even demonstrate when we know Libya is a beacon of freedom in the world?

    Hail the Green revolution, Hail Muammar, Hail the peace loving democratic Libya. And thank you Oracle for peddling Mummar’s propaganda line when anyone dares to support the UN line. One wonders why.

  • oracle

    JAH,

    I don’t give a fig about old leather face they can lynch him for all i care.

    But any programme can be edited to suit the agenda, you’re old enough and wise enough JAH to know that, hell I believe it would be possible with a lot of work to edit a programe about George W Bush that could make him appear of normal intelligence….. well a lot of work, but it could be done.

    You have also refused to address the issue of Western support to give rule of the Libya to the minority.

  • Andnowwhat: Africans do care. Guess what. You open your mouth and bang. Whites and blacks rape African together. It is equal opportunity. Arab and African Leagues: Western genocidal puppets.
    France, the hero of Libya, supported a cannibal in Zaire. It is hard to know who is worst, cannibals or Westerners. Westerners many Africans would say: Cecil Rhodes, King Leopald, Joe Cahill, the list, like that of their victims, is endless and ongoing.

  • oracle

    JAH

    As for your unarmed nonsense take a look at this link from the BBC.
    It brags about suicide bombing a security base, didn’t think suicide bombing police and soldiers was right up your street JAH

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12789740

    “Bulldozers were commandeered by protesters to ram the walls but the Katiba finally fell only when a suicide bomber drove a car into the front gate.”

  • andnowwhat

    AlanMaskey

    That is exactly what I was hinting at.
    To say what I hinted at and what you said can be wrongly assumed to be racist.

    Large amounts of africans and arabs are educated and have wealth. If they want respect as internationals they must operate with regional, if not global, responsibility. As I said, what does S Africa do about Zimbabwe? Make excuses. Why? As you said, corruption.

    I am a total anti colonialist but as pro colonialists point out, the clolonies benefited from access to english, the international language. Take India. A thriving nation and yet we give massive amounts of money for development and poverty. It’s a big boy now and does our contribut

  • andnowwhat

    Did it again..

    ..and do our contributions not undermine any advancement in social development?

  • andnowwhat

    Odd. According to sources on the Guardo, Italy is threatening to pull access to it’s basis.

    Funny how that Blair, Gadaffi, Berlusconi thing works.

  • Driftwood

    The important thing is that freedom triumphs. Our airmen and sailors (and submariners) are laying their lives on the line to protect freedom and democracy (again and again). The RAF Tornado and Typhoon pilots, and the crews of HMS Westminster and Cumbernauld have done this country proud.
    Hopefully, when we have dissolved tyranny from Libya (as so many other places) Stormont will invite the RAF and RN to a special all party thanksgiving, as our pilots and seacrew often do not get the recognition they deserve from all parts of our Kingdom.

  • Andnowwhat: British India was raped and starved by Britain. At the time of the tsunami, India sent help to the Maldives and Sri Lanka. Unlike China, India can launch a blue water navy which puts it in the big boys’ league, something the rent a kill Brits are leaving

    Driftwood: The terrorists of the RAF and RN are not risking anything by attacking Libya. Hopefully some of these killers from above will be shot down and boiled alive. As they do unto others, so also…,.
    Hate to burst your bubble but Britain does not have a democratic track record. On the contrary, it has thrown up some of history’s most disgusting leaders, Tony Blair being a relevant case in point. Well you know it or you would not post such tongue in cheek crap.

    The ordinary Brit does have a good record of not fighting for Hitler but beheaded Kenyans and Malays might not see the benefits the opium peddling “no dogs or Chinese” mob brought them. Old genocidal habits die hard, I guess.

  • Driftwood

    Unlikely our intrepid submariners are likely to suffer any fate Mr Maskey
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Triumph_(S93)
    The Royal navy is still the liberator from the seas, and the RAF, despite recent cutbacks, still carries the Spitfire ‘spirit’ of the few.
    While our own Irish soldiers of our British army are in battle in other areas of the middle east, the local guys on our subs, frigates, destroyers, and Tornadoes and Typhoons show how we in this part of the United Kingdom are truly part of the global desire for freedom.

  • oracle

    Hey Drift

    That medication your taking, tell me is it orally or intravenously ?

  • oracle

    U.S warplane crash lands in Libya is the BBC headline…

    Oh was it landing at an airstrip when it crashed?
    Err em um agh…….. No!
    Then it didn’t crash land did it Mr BBC

    So it was having technical difficulties with its thrust or fly by wire or ran out of fuel, well running out of fuel is not going to happen hasn’t happened since the second world war.

    Thrust problems manifest over several minutes with lots of cock-pit warning lights allowing the pilots to steer a course to the sea where they could be rescued by Allied ships operating just off the coast. As the pilots have been briefed to do! So it wasn’t thrust.

    Fly-by-wire technology failure generally only affects aging or prototype craft so again extremely unlikely in this scenario.

    That only leaves fuselage trauma due to enemy action as an option… so in other words Mr BBC it was SHOT DOWN….. NOT crash landed

  • RepublicanStones

    Drift I didn’t think you’d let your fondness for the British military obscure reality.
    http://is.gd/opqUjc

    If you’re in a rush just skip to the last line.

  • oracle

    Has the BBC been bought over by FOX NEWS ???

    I read this on the BBC site it is the most blatantly biased pile of cobblers you are ever likely to come across on a major media network.
    It is childlike in its naivety and fantasy scenarios, it’s like something a drunk would spew out then recoil in embarrassment in the grasp of sobriety

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12803282

  • qwerty12345

    Hey oracle, loved the article, at least when this is all over you’ll get a change of underwear 🙂

  • oracle

    Qwerty,

    when it comes to that i’m with the ground troops cos I go commando

  • oracle

    Israel doing what Israel does best……

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12822493