Time for the Americans to retreat. But who will take their place?

It’s 2031. A new generation is at loggerheads in Ireland and the  Caucasus are in flames. The Chinese President goes into a huddle with his advisers in the Forbidden City to thrash out which overseas investment to cut and which to boost in order to put pressure on one or other faction in the distant theatres of conflict. The aged but still lively Dame Anna Lo is summoned as a key adviser on Ireland.   How would we feel – not about Anna of course, she’d be great, but the rest of it ?

Does anybody share my irritation with Obama and Clinton pontificating about every crisis from the tiny to the titanic, from NI to Egypt? Don’t get me wrong. I’m not a deep dyed conspiracy theorist about the US military industrial complex like the left wing linguistics professor Noam Chomsky. I understand American overedependence on foreign investment.  I’m grateful that the US held the ring in Europe up to 1989.  As for those dark mutterings, ” it’s all about the oil,” do you fancy suddenly going without it? I have faint childhood memories of petrol rationing during the Suez debacle of 1956. This is not the time for a repeat performance.

Nevertheless America’s sense of entitlement to intervene anywhere in a ” monopolar” world is wearing thin. It looks as if theyare like air,  helplessly filling an exposed void anywhere in the world, in spite of the relative decline of their wealth and power.  Even at their peak, when you look at it coolly, the record is patchy to poor from Mexico in 1914 to Vietnam in the 1960s and Iraq and Afghanistan today.  The US can behave like a grizzly bear  knocking its playmate’s head off with an attempt at a friendly cuff , or sometimes taking a severe bite back   in return.  The time is overdue for America to end the client state system from Marcos to Mubarak, memorably described by Roosevelt of the Nicaraguan dictator Somoza: ” He may be a son of a bitch but he’s our son of a bitch”

True, Korea was a great success. In theory it was a UN operation because the Russian delegate was absent for the crucial voter and failed to cast his veto. In the 21st century, might the UN with a Security Council expanded by the BRIC countries yet become the instrument of diplomacy and sanctions in a multipolar world? Or do our children face the prospect of Chinese intervention if the Troubles break out again?

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  • Drumlins Rock

    Brian, what are you on? sorry meant on about, predicting 20 yrs on anywhere is farcical never mind NI & China, by then conflict in Scotland and middle England could be as likely as it is here, with the Islamic Republic of Yorkshire seeking to implement Sharia Law.

    We can look at Americas history as the World Dominant Empire of the Era, and on comparison with those that went before it was probably the most benign, but predicting China will take its place is not a forgone conclusion as it has many internal issues still to resolve, and the US is far from down and out yet, who knows once the current Left wing nuts wreck much on South America again the US could form economic alliances to rival China, its all a guestimation.

    Perhaps however the real reason for this thread isn’t crystal ball gazing but an excuse to let the Anti-American fanatics to have a wee rant at your invitation?

  • Kevin Barry

    How I love right wing commentators, especially those foolish enough to try and have a go at Noam Chomsky for being a conspiracy theorist.

    Tell me Brian, you’ve read his books and articles and noticed how he’s backed his theory rigorously with sources as opposed to most of what you’ve offered above?

    Stick to local politics, please

  • slappymcgroundout

    This week’s sign of the coming apocalypse:

    DR and I agree on something.

    Though perhaps that is only because, for the most part, this site concerns one small variable in the equation and on that we don’t exactly see eye to eye. But thanks, DR, for recognizing that while my nation is admittedly not perfect, we’ve been less imperfect than more than a few others, both contemporary and in times past.

    Now on to Brian. Brian, we are encircling China. The folks in India who weren’t so nice to us not all that long ago are ever the warmer with us each day. We now conduct joint war games with our new friends in India.

    And then there’s Viet Nam:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16N1p22z3I0

    I, for one, can’t wait for the day when our friends on the left borrow your quote from Teddy Roosevelt for purposes of condemning the new US-Viet relationship, all the while forgetting, of course, that we tried to limit the power of that regime in the first instance. When that happens, the circle of leftist idiocy will be complete. And that day is sure to come.

    Next, I trust that you already know about the ROK and Japan, well, at least I hope you do.

    Next, we trust that our Russian friends will take care of their part in the play.

    Which brings us to you Euro folk. And so, as concerns our retreat, yes, we should get the f out of Europa. About time the Euro slackers started carrying their own weight. You folks in the UK know that you are excluded in this respect, as you’ve been carrying your weight.

    Next, there are our Muslim friends, who no doubt despise the godless Red Chinese than Crusader us. One positive in our favor from the Quran. Now if the Chinese revert to Islam, we’ll be in trouble.

    Lastly, Brian, you forgot to add that the Chinese are making gains now by manipulating the value of their currency. That game can’t be played forever. And DR is otherwise right, as they have some rather significant internal problems of their own to work out and their rather huge population certainly doesn’t make their solutions any the easier.

    Almost forgot, but for why we here will remain strong for some time yet:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNUxlfGKO80

    No one is rushing to get into China. But each year, one-third of all displaced persons who find themselves a new home find that home in the United States of America. Some day soon, another such human will assume command.

    Next up, Kevin Barry. Noam Chomsky? You mean the same Noam Chomsky who served as apologist for the Red Khmers? He ought to stick to linguistics.

  • Brian

    According to Noam Chomskey Pol Pot was a humanitarian.

  • Nunoftheabove

    Not sure what you’re arguing here Brian…and would guess that you’re not sure either. Are you advocating an outright isolationist position on the US’s part (active disinterest on the part of America in the affairs of the rest of the world in itself representing a form of ‘interference’ in its own right) or a more soapy benevolent role whereby we have a dangerous stalemate on many issues whenever China, Russia and perhaps France weigh in ?

  • oracle

    But who will take their

    Hopefully no-one…. they aren’t needed and never have been….murderers rapists and thieves are not wanted in decent societies

  • oracle

    Brian,

    you state “According to Noam Chomskey Pol Pot was a humanitarian”

    but when Vietnam tried to get the world interested in Cambodia only a handful of countries 12 is the figure I believe voted with Vietnam

    Britain and USA voted against while Ireland and other balless lackies abstained so as not to offend the USA

    Pol-Pot then went continued on his genocide campaign thanks to the West

  • Kevin Barry

    Hi Brian, you want to cite where you got that from exactly?

    Tell me you’re not going on what Fred Barnes wrote in the New Republic? Pretty pathetic stuff if you ask me…

  • qwerty12345

    Former American secretary of defense Robert Macnamara once mused “How much evil must we do to achieve good”, its a breathtaking statement.

    Perhaps if that “evil” was felt as viscerally in Des Moines as Hanoi or god knows how many other places then America and Americans wouldn’t be so cavalier in their actions and as quick with the apologetics.

    I’ll make a prediction though, in twenty years time there will still be fools like Drumlins Rock whining about the IRA while calling America’s actions “probably the most benign”

    Sad.

  • slappymcgroundout, [who posted 5 February 2011 at 3:01 pm] Hi.

    You have a beef against the Chinese, slappymcgroundout? Would you care to share what your problem is with them?

  • Drumlins Rock

    Fool am I?

    First lets up your McNamara statement in context, which was WWII Japan not Vietnam, and in that situation I think anyone would have asked the same question, here is the quote from “Fog Of War”
    “Instead of burning to death 100,000 Japanese civilians in that one night we should have [killed] a lesser number or none, and then [have] our soldiers cross the beaches in Tokyo and be slaughtered in the tens of thousands?” he asks, “Is that moral? Is that wise?” Here in a nutshell is the issue with which we are faced. How much evil must we do in order to do good? It is, as McNamara states, “a very, very difficult position for sensitive human beings to be in.” Difficult, no doubt, but this is a situation with which humanity and its military forces are faced with constantly.”

    As for you reference to Des Moines, these events were only two generations after the American Civil War, so yes the Americans did inflict much the same suffering on their own, if holding vast powers over much of mankind is always bad, I would say the USA was one of the least worst to do so, and much much better than the alternatives the 20th C had on offer.
    Finally, did I mention the IRA in my comments? or when have I been “whining” about them? except during relevant threads.

  • joeCanuck

    Anyone got a link for the claimed Noam Chomskey quote that Pol Pot was a humanitarian?

  • Brian Walker

    My post was about attitudes to great power intervention, not necessarily to be taken literally. Obviously.

    Drumlin’s, a bit patronising perhaps? How are your foreign credentials, your awards?: I’ve spent most of my life out of Ireland dealing with many countries and won’t stop now.

    Other critics are simply making different points. Kevin, you are one of a very select few who think that criticism of US intervention abroad is right wing. You should know that Chomsky is a far from orthodox left winger and disagreeing with him doesn’t make me right wing or any wing.

    Sorry if I conflated my argument too much for some. I ended with the fair question:Might an expanded UN security council over time replace the idea of the US as the sole great power? Not too tough a point to grasp, I’d hoped.

  • Nunoftheabove

    Brian

    To the contrary – better to conflate a bit more and convolute a bit less – give us something to swing at 😉

  • qwerty12345

    DR the Macnamara quote if I remember rightly was actually in the second part of “Fog of War” which dealt with Vietnam but referenced the American exercise of warfare in general rather than either Vietnam or Japan in particular. He did however have no problem saying that what was done in Japan was disproportionate and that had the US lost the war he and his boss would have been rightly convicted as war criminals.

    The problem I have with people here cheerleading for or explaining away the actions of “great” powers is that often when the same type of things happen closer to home they have very different opinions. The atrocities of La Mon or Enniskillen are felt acutely while the deaths of literally millions of people far away get the perpetrators onto a least worst list. Those kinds of moral gymnastics are imho foolish.

    Also I dont accept your point that a civil war is the same as being trampled by a foreign superpower. 600,000 dead in the American civil war isnt the same as 3.4 million dead Vietnamese – thats Macnamaras number btw watch “fog of war” again. Other places the death count varies and we in the west arent taught the Vietnamese death toll in school are we, but we know about the sacred 58,000 Americans, after all Charlie Sheen told us all about it over popcorn.

    And for those who think the US are the least worst have a read at Zoltan Grossmans little list http://academic.evergreen.edu/g/grossmaz/interventions.html

  • Tom Lehrer said it all years ago, in his song Send The Marines.

  • slappymcgroundout

    “You have a beef against the Chinese, slappymcgroundout? Would you care to share what your problem is with them?”

    You can start here:

    http://www.amnesty.org/en/region/china

    We can make it simple though, from page 2:

    Free Liu Xiaobo & Liu Xia

    But so you have some more explanation:

    http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2011/01/11/china-human-rights-action-plan-fails-deliver

    For a bonus freebie, what some here and around the globe do not understand is encapsulated in a two word phrase:

    American exceptionalism

    Once you understand that notion, then you’ll know why we don’t believe that we need what some call “empire” to rise to the top. Give us the level playing field, that’s all we ask, and our American exceptionalism will allow us to rise to the top. I don’t necessarily adopt the view, since there isn’t anything special about us, as we are human just like the rest, but if one does adopt the view, then there’s less perceived need to trample some others down, since it won’t be repression but exceptionalism that brings us to the top. Most critics of America don’t get that. They singularly fail to understand the American psyche. They view us in their terms and so there’s no exceptionalism, and so their perceived need to repress is projected onto us.

    Now back to your question, we don’t have a problem with a free and prosperous China. We do, however, have a problem with jailed dissidents. And we here in America would simply submit that it is no human’s interest to have such a regime expand its writ. And so the encircling.

  • Harry Flashman

    Ah yes, the “what did the Romans ever do for us?” question.

    I’m sure the people who lived under Roman rule must have chafed a bit about all those pushy types sticking their noses into other peoples’ business and building roads, securing free trade and providing clean water. It must have been a right pain, I can imagine how they would chuckle a bit when they heard some Roman legion got its come uppance from a barabarian horde somewhere out on the fringes of the empire.

    Not sure they would have quite enjoyed the coming dark ages as the Huns, Visigoths and sundry other mobs sacked Rome and the world became fair game to whatever warlord happened to fancy your property and to hell with laws and trade.

    I get the feeling that before the end of this century we’re going to know how they felt. Pax Americana, we’ll miss you when you’re gone, the question is should we be studying Mandarin or the Koran? It’s so hard to know who the new boss will be.

  • Greenflag

    ‘It won’t be repression but exceptionalism that brings us to the top. Most critics of America don’t get that. They singularly fail to understand the American psyche. They view us in their terms and so there’s no exceptionalism,’

    American ‘exceptionalism’ is a much hyped nonsense which in essence provides a backcloth to cover up maost of the USA’s current economic , social and political woes -never mind it’s disastrous and self defeating foreign policy in recent decades.

    The USA WAS ‘exceptional ‘ in it’s foundation and in it’s earlier development . Access to vast natral resources and an ’empty ‘ continent in the age of the ‘industrial revolution’ all helped to propel the USA to the top of the world economic and political pyramid -but even so it was’nt until the end of WW2 that the ‘rest of the world’ including a reluctant Britain and France came to accept the ‘new ‘world order. Some might say that not until Britain & France’s failed attempt at a bit of neo colonial /imperial retrofit in the Suez Canal in the mid 1950’s -did the ‘old world’ finally get the message and even then the next decade or so saw the French get bogged down in Vietnam and Algeria with Britain also forced to ‘remove’ itself from Malaysia, Cyprus , India Pakistan etc.

    So what’s the difference today between the USA in Afghanistan , Iraq or in the American ‘military ‘ presence in 150 outposts around the world and that of the former ‘imperial’ powers ? The USA now accounts for over half of worldwide military expenditure with 5% of the world’s population while back in the USA some 50 million Americans cannot survive economically or physically without ‘food stamps ‘ -some 3 million Americans are in prisons as ‘private ‘ prisons become a new high return ‘growth ‘ industry, and 28 million Americans are unemployed while another 50 million have no health insurance . In a country where the biggest ‘single ‘ cause of bankruptcy is ruinous medical operation costs one might think that somehow American ‘exceptionalism ‘ or even Yankee ‘ingenuity’ would rush to resolve the USA’s very deep malaise- not at all -instead that ‘exceptionalism ‘ continues to run up over 3.5 trillion dollars in debt in ‘wars’ overseas in Afghanistan and Iraq and probably elsewhere soon enough 🙁

    As their politicians in Congress and the House of Representatives square off as between those who favour much reduced government spending (called deficit spending ) and those who believe that taxation will have to be increased to ever reduce the USA’s public debt and protect the dollar – the one area of ‘spending ‘ which no party wants to be seen to cut is ‘military ‘ spending . Carry on Empire seems to be the watchword 🙁

    .

  • Greenflag

    The USA like any other country has ‘interests’ . Britain and the all the other former imperial powers had ‘interests’ during their ‘reigns’ at the top of the world’s economic and military power pyramid . China or India or any other emerging State will also have ‘interests /

    Exceptionnally (pun intended) the USA has or believes it has in it’s own self perception ‘ideals ‘ often called ‘values’ which it posits to share with the rest of the world . Many of these ‘ideals ‘ find a ready market elsewhere and are shared with other parts of the world especially in western europe and in english speaking countries such as Australia, Canada and New Zealand .

    But American ‘ideals’ as one would expect often conflict with American ‘interests’ . The two most longstanding ‘interests’ of the USA in the Middle East were and are 1) Israel’s continued existence and security and 2) A continuing non interrupted supply of oil from this region which means politically and militarily the defence and support of the Saudi Arabian and other non democratic regimes .

    Into this mix also falls the support for Egyptian dictator Mubarak . USA ‘unconditional ‘ support for Israel is based on many factors but the sum total of all that support has been to ‘antagonise’ the 1 billion Arabs across the middle east and now North Africa. Earlier attempts by the peoples of this region to bring ‘democracy ‘ (that western ) value to their countries were usurped by Anglo American interests (based on the corporate interests of Anglo American oil companies predominantly mixed in with some ‘red scare ‘ tactics ).

    So no it wasn’t all about oil as the ‘conspiracists ‘ like to portray the middle east conflicts but it would not be too far off the mark to suggest that ‘oil’ was and remains at least 80% of the west’s interest.

    This is how the USA the world’s exceptional and leader of ‘democracy ‘ came to support a dictator like Mubarak for 30 years and why Mubarak is still clinging to power and believes that he needs another 9 months to hold on to power for the sake of Egypt ?

    What has Mubarak actually done for the Egyptian people and it’s economy over the past 3 decades . Not the USA’s business of course .

  • Greenflag

    @ Brian Walker,

    ‘I ended with the fair question:Might an expanded UN security council over time replace the idea of the US as the sole great power? ‘

    It has to and sooner rather than waiting around until 2031 .

    Germany, Japan , India ,Brazil and Indonesia should all be present members . The world in 2031 and probably before that will be a multi polar again but instead of the 2 power model of the second half of the 20th century there will be several powers one of which may be the yet developing EU .

    On a lighter note

    ‘do our children face the prospect of Chinese intervention if the Troubles break out again’

    Unlikely -NI’s only resource is it’s people -and the Chinese are kinda oversupplied in that area .

    ‘The aged but still lively Dame Anna Lo is summoned as a key adviser on Ireland.’ How would we feel – not about Anna of course, she’d be great’

    Dame Anna? Not at all . By 2031 the bould Anna Lo will be either a retired TD or Senator . The pension benefits will be much better for retired politicians in the Second Republic:) ;

  • Greenflag

    @ Brian Walker,

    ‘I ended with the fair question:Might an expanded UN security council over time replace the idea of the US as the sole great power? ‘

    It has to and sooner rather than waiting around until 2031 .

    Germany, Japan , India ,Brazil and Indonesia should all be present members . The world in 2031 and probably before that will be a multi polar again but instead of the 2 power model of the second half of the 20th century there will be several powers one of which may be the yet developing EU .

    On a lighter note

    ‘do our children face the prospect of Chinese intervention if the Troubles break out again’

    Unlikely -NI’s only resource is it’s people -and the Chinese are kinda oversupplied in that area .

    ‘The aged but still lively Dame Anna Lo is summoned as a key adviser on Ireland.’ How would we feel – not about Anna of course, she’d be great’

    Dame Anna? Not at all . By 2031 the bould Anna Lo will be either a retired TD or Senator . The pension benefits will be much better for retired politicians in the Second Republic:) ;

  • Greenflag

    ‘@ harryflashman ,

    ‘I get the feeling that before the end of this century we’re going to know how they felt.’

    Not unless you have discovered the elixir of eternal life -Flash? By 2090 I would think that you will be beyond ‘feeling’ anything unless of course you are presently a 5 year old undergoing passionate indoctrination in a ‘mad rassa ‘ and your genetic heritage favours above average life expectancy 🙂

  • tacapall

    “Once you understand that notion, then you’ll know why we don’t believe that we need what some call “empire” to rise to the top. Give us the level playing field, that’s all we ask, and our American exceptionalism will allow us to rise to the top”.

    Smedley Darlington Butler (July 30, 1881 – June 21, 1940), nicknamed “The Fighting Quaker” and “Old Gimlet Eye”, was a Major General in the U.S. Marine Corps, and at the time of his death the most decorated Marine in U.S. history. During his 34-year career as a Marine, he participated in military actions in the Philippines, China, in Central America and the Caribbean during the Banana Wars, and France in World War I. By the end of his career he had received 16 medals, five of which were for heroism. He is one of 19 people to twice receive the Medal of Honor, one of three to be awarded both the Marine Corps Brevet Medal and the Medal of Honor, and the only person to be awarded the Brevet Medal and two Medals of Honor, all for separate actions.

    Smedley Butler who wrote:

    I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested. Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.

    Yes Slappy American interests are all about democracy but in reality its profit, we have a war on terror sponsored by Oil cpmpanies, the global media, Mc Donalds, Starbucks etc. Never mind that they are going to be exploited and turned into slaves for the multi billionaires, heres a Kentucky – Do you want to go large for 30 pence extra.

  • slappymcgroundout

    Smedley? You really need to read more. He had no transferable job skills, so when he left the Marines he went around lecturing all the leftie groups with his War Is A Racket mantra. Well, leftie groups and diehard isolationists. You might wish to read Semper Fidelis: The History Of The United States Marine Corp:

    “Few [Marine officers] agreed, however, with Major General Smedley D. Butler, who announced from retirement that he had spent his life making the world safe for American investors and corporations.”

    Do you know anything about the endeavors of which Smedley spoke? I didn’t think so. You found some guy who had no way of making a living following his mandatory retirement other than telling some others what they wanted to hear and you ran with it.

    Let us take Nicaragua. Was basically two countries in one, with the one group based in Leon and the other based in Granada. Here, it helps to understand that they were former Spanish colonies. So they had adopted the Spanish compadre system, which has these networks based on a mythical kinship [something like an alumni/frat combo from hell; same as in the Philippines and one of the things that does not work to the advantage of Filipinos]. So these two groups were more or less making war on each for decades. And it had all the hallmarks of the compadre mentality, i.e., it didn’t matter that he had raped the daughter of the fellow in the other group, he was your compadre and so was defended all costs. Kind of like their version of the Hatfields and the McCoys, except with the mythical kin nature of the compadre system the family was much the larger. The Mexicans, quasi-communists at the time, did their best to aid the one side by supplying arms, etc. We otherwise weren’t the only humans there. You Euro folks were there too. Well, maybe not you Irish, but other Europeans. Not only did these people wage incessant war on each other, when they thought they could get away with it, they warred on the foreigners in their midst. Some Americans were killed, some Euros were killed, and, of course, with the latter, the Euro govts asked the US to intervene in order to help protect the lives of their citizens, as hard for them to do that, as they are on the other side of the Atlantic.

    That’s a short summary of inside the country. Overall the area, nine republics in Central America, with endemic warfare between them and endemic civil war within them. Not a good place for a holiday vacation and never mind the tropical setting.

    We first intervened in 1912. Then after having calmed things down for a while, most Marines left save for a skeleton crew of 100 Marines in Managua, who were there to send the message, we don’t want no more civil war, i.e., they were supposed to serve as a visible reminder that the US might very well intervene again if necessary. And as you can imagine, well, how corrupt are most Third World regimes today? So one of the things that we did to help the locals was to take over the customs service (as the Philippines teaches as well, no greater means of financial chicanery than customs], and to make sure the trains ran on time, we also took over the national railroad. Unfortunately, the 100 Marines wasn’t enough. Had a destabilizing effect, in the sense that they couldn’t protect themselves and so when some predictably found themselves in danger-filled violent situations, more cries back home about need for greater intervention. And so on…

    As the work cited above reports re the motive for all this:

    “American diplomacy in Central America followed the broad lines established between 1901 and 1921: The United States would use its influence to prevent wars between the [nine] republics [of Central America] and civil war within them and thus encourage democratic government based on popular elections. Peace would provide conditions in which economic development and social progress might flourish, aided by foreign investment and foreign loans to help stabilize governments. Such development would bring greater social stability, which in turn would reduce the possibility of political violence and the intervention by the European powers or the area’s newest agitator, revolutionary Mexico.”

    So you get the idea, in 1907, the US helped push five of the the nine republics to enter into an agreement to have their differences resolved by an international tribunal lest they war on each other, and they also agreed to not interfere in the internal affairs of the others.

    So, we’ve come full circle. Smed was a great soldier, but not so bright in other respects. Was a diehard ultra-isolationist who believed in coastal defense of the US as the outer edge and we’d only get involved in any war if we ourselves were attacked. No one who ever quotes him ever bothers to mention the endemic warfare in Central America before our intervention, and that would be war between those republics and war within those republics. And as you can imagine, going back to what we are doing in Ireland today as well, i.e., foreign investment, do you not understand why some might cry, they are harming our investment, please help? What do you think we should do today if some your Irish kin start ransacking our corporations in Eire? Nothing?

    And don’t get me wrong, I disagree with Smed, profoundly so, but there is always the risk that if we start operating businesses in Ireland, the natives might get all ornery and start hassling our business operations, and unless we wish to write the investment off as loss, we’ll have to do something, yes? That’s how naive he was. Since we could never invest anywhere outside of America lest we run the risk of offending ultra-isolationist him by sending our troops to another land to protect our foreign investment from those who wish to harm/steal it. And in Nicaragua’s case, it wasn’t a case of nationalization, it was the anti-govt rebels, to include Sandino. And if we were so wrong, and Sandino so right, why is that place still a shithole? It was a shithole before Ortega versus Contras and it’s still a shithole now. They need investment but they won’t get what they need without some protection for the investors. Again, that’s how naive Smed was. And some today need to understand, business can be good for both, for us and for them. Just think of where Eire would be without US investment. Again, according Smed, we can’t have that, since if you got uppity, we’d have to intervene military and then he’d retire and call war a racket.

  • Kevin Barry

    Hi Brian,

    Thanks for the reply, sorry for the delay with mine.

    ‘Kevin, you are one of a very select few who think that criticism of US intervention abroad is right wing. You should know that Chomsky is a far from orthodox left winger and disagreeing with him doesn’t make me right wing or any wing.’

    No, I have read many of your posts previously and you come across as right wing; am I correct? If not, where do you see yourself Brian as I would like to know. My criticism was specifically with regard to your citing Chomsky as a conspiracy theorist.

    I believe that when someone like a political journalist cites another person as being a conspiracy theorist it is common place to equate that with someone in the ‘tin hat brigade’ so to speak, someone who just rants and raves about how the problems in this world are the fault of others without a shred of proof. Maybe you were trying to say that he merely believes that there is a large conspiracy behind what happens in our world and we are not being told what this is, fair enough.

    The point about Chomsky is that thanks to his tireless work we know who is pulling the strings and why. His work is incredibly well researched and I found your citing of him as a conspiracy theorist as a cheap shot against him.

    Maybe I shouldn’t have called you a right wing commentator, but an establishment commentator which you most certainly appear to be. Does that title fit a bit better?

  • fordprefect

    Applauds tacapall.

  • slappymcgroundout

    For those who still buying into the Soviet propanganda, I’ll simplify matters. The US invests substantially in dear ole Eire. Why I brought Ireland into the discussion. And sorry, but it’s more than KFC and you know that, so don’t pretend otherwise. For how absurd you sound, we here have about 5% of the world’s population but 1/3 of the world’s GDP. So it’s more than KFC. And Greenflag was talking about 3-4 trillion when GDP is 14.6 trillion. So let’s be real here. Now, what makes anyone think that our investment in dear ole Eire is any different than our investment in any of the places mentioned by Smedley Butler?

    And who ruined dear ole Eire? American imperialists out to destroy you all, or your fellow Irishmen and Irishwomen, who’ve made you indentured servants to Brussels and the IMF? I’ll be waiting for your, it’s all the fault of Brussels and the IMF screed. It’s sure to come. As those deluded by Soviet propganda can’t help but go there as they always do. It’s never the fault of the corrupt SOBs who ruin the land, it’s always the IMF, those evil lenders of last resort. Some might instead ask why it came to last resort and apportion the blame accordingly.

    To sum, if you haven’t figured it out yet, the burden is not on me to show US good intention, as dear ole Eire does that for me. The burden is on you to establish through something other than quote mining, what makes Nicaragua any different than dear ole Eire? Lastly, as concerns our retreat:

    http://voices.washingtonpost.com/shortstack/2010/01/china_is_not_likely_to_surpass.html

    Yes, with one child per family, gonna be fun when one has support two, plus her or himself, etc. Another one of those significant internal problems that some fail to consider.

    For one more, for the clueless among us:

    The independent InDem Foundation in Moscow, which does the most comprehensive studies of the problem, estimates that Russians pay an estimated $318 billion in bribes each year – a whopping one-third of gross domestic product.

    In a survey released last week, the international consultancy PricewaterhouseCoopers found that 71 percent of domestic and foreign companies working in Russia were victims of “economic crime” in the past year, double the rate that prevails in other BRIC countries – Brazil, India, and China – and a 12 percent jump over a similar study in 2007.
    ***
    But Viktor Korgunyuk, an expert with InDem, says there have been no “serious” efforts to fight corruption so far – only words. “The whole system is based on corruption, and no one is going to cut off the branch upon which they are sitting,” he says.

    Don’t suppose that Nicaragua was anything like that, do you? Of course not, it’s all the fault of those damn Yanks with their KFCs.

  • Brian

    Slappy

    Don’t waste your time.

    These haters will miss America when it finally retreats into itself or implodes.

  • Harry Flashman

    @GF

    “Not unless you have discovered the elixir of eternal life…”

    Oh dear Greenie basic English comprehension isn’t your speciality is it?

    When I use the word “we” I am of course referring to the generality not to me personally and some other people. Let me help you out; if I said “we will soon have a major refugee crisis in Somalia” it doesn’t actually mean that I personally will be crisis struck by Somalian refugees, got it? Good, see how easy it is?

    Furthermore I did not use the date 2090, that is something you rather arbitrarily came up with. For your information, “before the end of the century” is a period which starts from now and ends at midnight on December 31st 2099, given that I fully intend to enjoy at least another fifty years of life (touch wood) a very substantial portion of that period will be personally experienced by me even if I’m not actually around in 2090.

    Now to one of your substantive points, Indonesia (among others) a permanent member of the Security Council?

    You’re having a laugh aren’t you?

    On what basis? Population? Just to remind you it’s the Security Council not the Population Council.

    Don’t get me wrong, I love Indonesia, I have lived and worked there and it is undoubtedly my favourite country but it would be as much use on the UN Security Council as tits on a bull.

    Indonesia can barely administer its own territory and police its own borders and is always just one step away from utter societal collapse, tell me what possible function could Indonesia or Brazil or even Germany perform on the Security Council that the present permanent members can’t already do far, far better?

  • Antoin Mac C.

    This is not the time for a repeat performance-That’s as good as tellin the camel and horse drivers who charged into the protesters in Cairo when then should be Hungry.An american journalist remarked that the horsemen had been paid by the security forces to charge into the protesters.Some of them were pulled to the ground and beaten up.In an interview the following day one of the riders said that they supported the protesters and were merely trying to demonstrate their solidarity,’We have no food’,he remarked.What wud u hav em say—We Hungry Boss?You
    got enuff oil Boss?

  • Antoin Mac C.

    2011=450000 unemployed.Planet eire.

  • Antoin Mac C.

    this is not the time 4 a repeat performance

  • Antoin Mac C.

    Or do our children face the prospect of Chinese intervention if the Troubles break out again?-I must confess,i’ve never seen a chinese soldier in my life.Is this a new technological developement?How much ‘trouble’ do you think that the chinese are causing.Is it a conspiracy of undercover securacrats.Am i a fool to believe that the chinese have infiltrated the TANS,are they going to come south and burn balbriggan to the ground? How many of them are there?Do they pose a threat to the unemployed and under-paid workers?Do our childern face the prospect of no intervention
    by the political establishment in the face of the greatest recession,since the last recession,which wasn’t really that great after all………

  • Now back to your question, we don’t have a problem with a free and prosperous China. We do, however, have a problem with jailed dissidents. And we here in America would simply submit that it is no human’s interest to have such a regime expand its writ. And so the encircling.“…. slappymcgroundout 6 February 2011 at 3:16 am

    Thanks for the reply, slappymcgroundout. You appear to be fighting a rear guard action/losing battle in this thread, defending the indefensible. But no matter, that is not what I really wanted to say. Although the encircling of Uncle Sam by so much ill will may have something to do with the perception of it not doing as it says it is. All here would probably agree with you that it is no human’s interest to have such a regime as jails dissidents, expand its writ …. which has one then highlighting Bradley Manning, and mentioning in passing, Guantanamo Bay concentration camp, which are is like a monstrous carbuncle on the face of a much-loved and elegant friend?

    And The King’s Speech, a new blockbuster movie of a more cultured kind … [blood and guts and bullets and bombs are so juvenile, aren’t they, and one war film is just like any other war film with just more horror added to make them different and more appealing nowadays, which is somewhat perverse and subversive] …has Wallis Simpson most probably accurately enough painted and beautifully portrayed as the trojan mole sent to bring down an empire with the sexual entrapment of an easily pleased, Great Game virgin.

    One wonders today, …. well, some of us wonder today, if the whippersnappers in the House of Windsor are up for a Great Game rematch to return the favours dealt over the past century, with the new tools we have here, and elsewhere, at our collective disposal and fingertips.

    http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/MONedward8c.jpg

  • Billy Pilgrim

    Brian Walker

    “You should know that Chomsky is a far from orthodox left winger and disagreeing with him doesn’t make me right wing or any wing.”

    But you have not offered a disagreement with Chomsky. You have declared him to be a “conspiracy theorist”. This is not a point of disagreement; it is simply a flatly false statement, surely intended to impugn Chomsky.

    For the record, in all the scores of volumes penned by Chomsky over the last half century, not once does he allege the existence of any kind of conspiracy.

    If you read Chomsky, you might understand how unnecessary it would be for the powerful to conspire.

  • Nunoftheabove

    Billy Pigrim

    Well enough said squire – I have my differences with Chomsky here and there for sure but if he’s any kind of conspiracist that’s news to me; a great many on the ‘serious’ left would also take issue with the description of him as orthodox left wing and have done so.

  • Kevin Barry

    Brian @ 4.07am

    Any word on that quote from Chomsky? I’m still waiting…

  • Brian

    As you well know he never said “Pol Pot was a humanitarian”.

    A little research will show you Chomsky’s, at times, shameful work regarding the mass murders of the Khmer Rouge and his own subsequent defense of the position he took…

    Chomskey was at his lowest when he criticized the accounts of refugees themselves, some of whom had seen their whole family murdered in front of them or die of starvation.

    Sophol Ear’s letter to the editor in the Observer February last is a good starting point.

    Enough about Chomsky. He is irrelevant to the discussion and I apologize for highlighting him in an earlier post.

  • Kevin Barry

    Brian

    ‘According to Noam Chomskey Pol Pot was a humanitarian.’

    then

    ‘As you well know he never said “Pol Pot was a humanitarian”.’

    then

    ‘A little research will show you Chomsky’s, at times, shameful work regarding the mass murders of the Khmer Rouge and his own subsequent defense of the position he took…’

    You’re asking me to do ‘a little research’? LMAO, clown

  • slappymcgroundout

    “Thanks for the reply, slappymcgroundout. You appear to be fighting a rear guard action/losing battle in this thread, defending the indefensible. But no matter, that is not what I really wanted to say. Although the encircling of Uncle Sam by so much ill will may have something to do with the perception of it not doing as it says it is.”

    Have you considered the notion that some of us don’t care about being liked? People who care about being liked did nothing when the others told the black-skinned humans that it was no seat at the lunch counter and the back of the bus for them. The modern version of that is the people who do even worse by objecting to the fact that we are making war on those who say that a man has to have a beard, or else, and that a woman has to be at home behind darkened windows and a veil, or else. Which brings me to…

    And if we did care, remember what mom is so fond of saying, to wit, consider the source. When the source credits us for taking in 1/3 of the world’s displaced persons who find a new home and for providing right around 1/2 of the world’s emergency food aid, then maybe some of us will care about the source’s opinion. To that you can add the fact that while they are oblivious to our housing and feeding the needy around the globe, again, they also complain of us making war on those who would treat some even worse than the KKK treated the black-skinned human. That’s their morality. Their morality isn’t even worth being called a morality. It’s the inane ramblings of the deluded, the ignorant, the envious and the blindly hateful.

    Relatedly, consider the Sandmonkey in his 28 November 2010 piece titled, Where the Road ends:

    “It was 5 years ago that the proud nation of Egypt was going through its parliamentary elections, the first in forever with any semblance of fairness. We had the opposition mobilized (kinda), the ruling party actually faced a real challenge in the ballot box, and the Muslim Brotherhood was the roaring monster that we all feared and sorta expected them to be. That was 5 years ago. Democracy was on the tip of everybody’s tongue, and the whole world seemed to be invested in making it happen, thanks to the strong resolve of one man in power everyone likened to an idiot Monkey, who- with the help of 300,000 of his own soldiers in a nearby country- put the pressure and fear of God in the hearts of those who ruled us. That man was George W. Bush, and today, I miss him so.

    You see, today a different guy is in charge. A man, with a smooth-tongue but very few principles, who changed the name of the game forever. Democracy was no longer the topic of conversation, but rather relegated to that of an after-thought. As strategic objectives go, it was no longer a priority. Stability, real politick, friendships with life-long dictators were the new objectives. The American people wanted it that way, or so it seemed to us, when they voted him into the White House. They just wanted to be liked instead of feared, and they ended up with neither. And they lost whatever respect that people had for them along the way.”

    There’s the rub. Some say that we’ll be liked but we won’t. It’s delusion, ignorance, envy, and a blind hate and that’s why never a word about homes for the homeless and food for the starving. And so if it wasn’t Guantanamo it would be something else. It isn’t like the same people weren’t saying the same things before Guantanamo. The deluded minions of Soviet propaganda are still the deluded minions of Soviet propaganda. And by the way, you can say whatever you want about the Sovs, but they did know something about propaganda. Probably the most effective propaganda campaign in history. I mean, it wasn’t like the same people weren’t claiming a moral equivalence between the US and the former USSR but a few decades ago, as they were claiming precisely that. That’s how effective the Soviet propaganda was and is (we live with it to this day)(it didn’t just go away when the wall came down).

    Lastly, we could otherwise liken this to a movie, Mississippi Burning, with you as Willem Dafoe’s Mr. Ward and me as Gene Hackman’s Mr. Anderson, and so:

    You: Don’t drag me down to your gutter, Anderson.

    Me: These people crawled out of the sewers, Mr. Ward. Maybe the gutter is where we oughta be.

    On that note:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fzCcMpV6Rk

    Note that part about not having to discern between military and civilian, as far as they’re concerned. Fine. We’ll play by their rules (which are no rules at all). And so there is no mistake, we aren’t making war on Osama because of his rules, instead, it’s his vision for our world. His vision would have you and me at Guantanamo. And that’s the cruel irony here. And for the moral abyss of some, while they do indeed have the ill will that you mentioned, they are more than pleased to work for our American company in dear ole Eire. A greater virtue can be found among whores, who are at least honest about who they are and what they do.

  • Brian

    Kevin Barry, lad of 18 summers

    I was being TIC when I said Chomsky thought Pol Pot was a humanitarian. He never said such a thing, but he defended his regime often and early.

    For example, he suggested the real reason why there were so many people fleeing the country is that the Communists (for lack of a better word) were making them all work too hard and they didnt like it. When, in fact, as was being reported by witnesses but scoffed at by him millions were being killed or were starving to death.

    As for this thread’s topic, whomever takes America’s place will undoubtedly be much worse. Unless one foresees India or Brazil overtaking China as the next major power, which is highly unlikely, there can be no argument

  • I suppose we can both agree that to play by the rules has you following a lead from the rear rather than leading a front with a following. When the rules suck and you create ill will, and invariably then always smarter enemies too, removing the rules dictates that a new approach is required with ideally, intelligence providing the novel route/root/base.

    Methinks this approach ….. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=PTL7P3c3_Ag …… is as old as the hills and still doesn’t work unless anarchy and chaos, which is not to be confused with CHAOS*, are one’s bag.

    * Clouds Hosting Advanced Operating Systems. A little gift from NIRobotIQs floating into the markets from the Virtual Reality Sphere ……. for Hearts and Minds Capturers rather than Captives.

  • Oops ….. 8 February 2011 at 4:27 am is in reply to slappymcgroundout 8 February 2011 at 3:33 am .

    Insomniac R Us if we are all GMT zoned 🙂

  • Brian

    for KB

    Chomsky and the Khmer Rouge

    In his prickly response (Letters, 17 January) to Andrew Anthony’s “Lost in Cambodia,” (OM, 10 January 2010) Noam Chomsky does precisely what he accuses Anthony of doing: “Vilify the messenger, to ensure that unwanted history is forgotten.” That unwanted history is of Chomsky himself casting aspersions on critics of the Khmer Rouge. During Pol Pot’s reign, Chomsky disputed the refugees themselves. Since Cambodia, he has expanded his game to North Korea and Bosnia. I must hand it to him – more than three decades after wagging his finger at refugees like myself in “Distortions at fourth hand” (The Nation, 6 June 1977), and later in After the Cataclysm (South End Press, 1979), he continues to quote selectively and to obfuscate. Chomsky’s formula is straightforward: (1) quote a critic saying something supportive of one little piece of an argument you wish to make; (2) needle other critics with it; and (3) repeat ad infinitum until you weave an entire tapestry with this flimsy thread. It is a game that only a linguist of Chomsky’s calibre can master.

    I am merely a former Cambodian refugee, for whom English is my fourth language. Yet it does not take much effort to find precisely what Chomsky wrote in 1979 (After the Cataclysm) and to let it speak for itself: “In the first place, is it proper to attribute deaths from malnutrition and disease to Cambodian authorities?” Since my father died of malnutrition and disease, I am especially outraged by this question. While my family worked and died in rice fields, Chomsky sharpened his theories and amended his arguments while seated in his armchair in Cambridge, Massachusetts. I believe that he would probably have me blame the Americans and their bombs for causing everything around the Khmer Rouge to go wrong.

    Incredibly, Chomsky and Ed Herman did precisely that when they claimed: “If a serious study… is someday undertaken, it may well be discovered… that the Khmer Rouge programmes elicited a positive response… because they dealt with fundamental problems rooted in the feudal past and exacerbated by the imperial system.… Such a study, however, has yet to be undertaken.”

    Perhaps that study had already been undertaken but was ignored, as Chomsky and Herman intimate: “The situation in Phnom Penh resulting from the US war is graphically described in a carefully-documented study by Hildebrand and Porter that has been almost totally ignored by the press.” This is high praise for a book that contained a propaganda picture of a Khmer Rouge “hospital” operating room.

    It just so happens that my father died in a mite-infested Khmer Rouge “hospital”. Nam Mon, an illiterate Khmer Rouge “nurse”, testified in July 2009 at the Khmer Rouge tribunal now taking place in Phnom Penh that all she did was hand out paracetamol and aspirin, no matter the malady. To be sure, her patients got the special treatment; they were prisoners at S-21, the Khmer Rouge killing machine that produced more than 17,000 deaths.

    When it comes to allowing for honest error, Chomsky will have none of it. He refers for example to Father Ponchaud’s differing American and British editions of Cambodia: Year Zero as evidence of duplicity. If he had cared to check with the easily accessible French priest, he would have learned that the error was due to his translator, who submitted the wrong edition to the publisher.

    Writing about American leaders in At War with Asia (Pantheon, 1970), Chomsky poignantly argued that: “Perhaps someday they will acknowledge their ‘honest errors’ in their memoirs, speaking of the burdens of world leadership and the tragic irony of history. Their victims, the peasants of Indochina, will write no memoirs and will be forgotten. They will join the countless millions of earlier victims of tyrants and oppressors.” Indeed, perhaps someday Chomsky will acknowledge his “honest errors” in his memoirs, speaking of the burdens of academia and the tragic irony of history. His victims, the peasants of Indochina, will write no memoirs and will be forgotten. They will be joined by his North Korean and Bosnian victims.

    For decades, Chomsky has vilified his critics as only a world class linguist can. However, for me and the surviving members of my family, questions about life under the Khmer Rouge are not intellectual parlour games. While he is a legend in linguistics, in international affairs Noam Chomsky consistently falls short of Thomas Jefferson’s maxim that universities are “based on the illimitable freedom of the human mind. For here we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor to tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it.”

    Professor Sophal Ear
    National Security Affairs
    US Naval Postgraduate School

    Monterey, California

  • slappymcgroundout

    Kevin Barry:

    Chomsky doesn’t do history. Chomsky doesn’t do analysis. Chomsky does lying propaganda.

    Let me leave you with Noam’s prediction of a bright and glorious future for Viet Nam:

    “My personal guess is that, unhindered by imperialist intervention, the Vietnamese would develop a modern industrial society with much popular participation and direct democracy.”

    They aren’t anywhere close. See my quote in the one post above re corruption in Russia. Ditto Viet Nam. Why we don’t hear much anymore about any rush to invest there and why there is no Asian tiger in Viet Nam. And their democrats are in jail. From the Telegraph (UK), 20 January 2010:

    A Vietnamese court on Wednesday sentenced a group of dissidents to up to 16 years in prison for trying to overthrow the communist regime in a case which has sparked global concern.

    The most well known of the defendants, Le Cong Dinh, a human rights attorney, received a relatively light five-year sentence after admitting that he had broken the law by trying to promote a multiparty democracy.

    Tran Huynh Duy Thuc, an internet entrepreneur, received an 16-year sentence, the stiffest handed down by the judges at the Ho Chi Minh City People’s Court after a one-day trial.

    Thuc testified that he had broken no laws and had only sought ways to rid Vietnam of corruption and improve its political system.

    Dinh, Thuc and a third defendant could have been sentenced to death.

    The trial comes as factions jockey for power ahead of next year’s Communist Party congress, and some observers have speculated that the current crackdown on dissent is connected to the upcoming political transition. Vietnam has convicted 10 other democracy activists in the last three months.

    New York-based Human Rights Watch condemned the proceedings.

    “Vietnam’s hostility toward freedom of expression and peaceful dissent is becoming increasingly flagrant in the run-up to next year’s party congress,” said Brad Adams, the organisation’s Asia director. “Vietnam should stop criminalising and imprisoning government critics.”

    And that’s how little Noam knows. All of that time and all of that effort. He and we would have been better off by simply flipping a coin. Heads for totalitarian despots and tails for liberating heroes. Hopefully, with one flip each for Cambodia, Laos and Viet Nam, heads would come up at least once, which would give us a .333 batting average via the coin flip as compared with Chomsky’s .000. He horribly misjudged the nature of every reigme that he advocated and apologized for in SE Asia. Instead of industry and democracy, we got Boat People, Killing Fields, and 5 years in the pen for daring to promote a multiparty democracy.

  • Greenflag

    @ Harry (the Queen) Flashman HRH 😉

    ‘When I use the word “we” I am of course referring to the generality not to me personally and some other people.’

    We are not amused 😉

    I understand that when HRH uses the ‘WE’ it refers to the singular royal as a plural .Those of us who are non aristocratic tend to use we when we represent others in some capacity or others .

    I’ll agree I may have overstated the case for Indonesia at this time -however neither Germany nor Brazil should be overlooked . The Germans ‘produce ‘ a million more vehicles.i.e 5.2 million, than the UK(1 million), France (2.1 million ), and Italy (850,000) combined . The Brazilians (3.2 million) ‘produce’ only 3 times as much as the UK.

    Of course you will say that the UK and France are ‘nuclear powers’ and they were the victors in a war 65 years ago and thus they must have a seat at the ‘table ‘ . Japan (8.0 million ) should also be on the UN Security Council .

    If the UN Security Council was based on vehicle manufacturing figures the the representation from the highest to lowest would be

    China , (14 million) , Japan (8 million) . USA (5.7 million) < Germany(5.2 million) , South Korea (3.5 million) , Brazil (3.2 million) , India (2.6 million ) , Spain ( 2.1 million).

    The UK ranks in 13th place behind Mexico , Iran and Canada and that other nuclear power Russia ranks in 19th place behind Turkey, Thailand , Poland , Italy and the Czech Republic ,

    I see slappymcgroundnuts is still 'justifying ' post hoc facto the USA military intervention in Vietnam and proclaiming that because Noam Chomsky got a .000 batting average that the deaths of 3 million Vietnamese in their war against foreign (French and American ) forces was just 'collateral " damage .

  • Harry Flashman

    Ah, I see we’re moving the goalposts are we now GF, you don’t want a security council based on population size (just as well as we’d end up with Nigeria and Bangladesh arguing over Russia’s place, and I can imagine what ornaments they’d be on the council) now you want the UN security council based on car production. Hey, why stop there? Why not pork belly production or ladies intimate apparel production?

    If you had to pick five nations with global political and economic influence and the ability to project military power and balance in the interests of world security – the purpose of the security council after all – you’d be hard pressed to come up with five more suitable members than the ones currently occupying the seats.

    Brazil with its lovely beaches and enchanting carnival, Germany with its sleek sedan cars and pointless military or aging Japan with its demographic death spiral and pacifist constitution don’t really cut it in the big boys’ leagues I’m afraid.

  • Greenflag

    Why not GDP ? Why not nuclear weapons?
    In which latter case India & Pakistan & Israel and North Korea could be up there sitting with the big lads ?
    In terms of GDP only the US & China make it into the top 5 .

    Point being the present Security Council is a ‘reflection of the world ‘power structure ‘ from 1945 to 2000 ?.

    50 years ago Britain and France could muster up the cojones to parachute their way into attempting to control the Suez Canal .

    Today Britain’s main interest apart from ensuring that it’s citizens and those of it’s frienndly neigbour Ireland are ‘rescued ‘ from harms way -that of course and then trying to figure out behind the scenes how much of Mubarak’s personal fortune of over 80 billion dollars believed to be ‘off shored ‘ mainly in the UK and Switzerland can be re -allocated elsewhere ‘safely’ without too much fuss so that Mubarak can be eh ‘released’ from his security role ?

  • Greenflag

    @ slappymcgroundnuts,

    ‘Chomsky doesn’t do history. Chomsky doesn’t do analysis. Chomsky does lying propaganda.’

    No that was Milton Friedman of the Chicago School of world economic destruction based on the fairy tales of Ayn Rand and the premise that bankers left alone to their own devices would like the big bad wolf not gobble up Little Red Riding Hood and would’nt ever dare to steal or misappropriate Granny’s pension or retirement fund and would behave with utmost probity if the ‘grannies ‘ of the USA would just hand over their ‘social security ‘ so that they could eh manage it more effectively and with greater returns .

  • Greenflag

    So where now stands the USA vis a vis Egypt -Behind the Egyptian generals who will ‘install’ their new man in the Presidency or behind free and democratic elections supervised overseen by the UN ? Will the Muslim Brotherhood or it’s political counterpart be allowed to put up candidates ?

    Is the USA now looking even more the toothless tiger in the MIddle East with first the Israelis and the Palestinians and the Iranians and now the Egyptians telling Washington to mind it’s own business and just keep sending more weapons ?