éirígí: they’re not an intervention – they’re aiming for 0.3% at best

As we noted, at éirígí’s last Ard Fheis, they stated they would be making an ‘intervention’ in northern electoral politics.

I recently suggested 22 council areas dissenting republicans considering electoral intervention could look at.

Today, éirígí announced their candidates. A full two and it seems unlikely they will announce more.

Two candidates, across 582 seats. That’s contesting 0.3% of the game at council level

Some electoral ‘intervention’.

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  • West Sider

    The Upper Falls candidate says:

    When I first became involved in the republican struggle, the goals of the civil rights movement were making the headlines, including the right to a job and the right to a home. Forty years later, these very basic and very limited demands have still not been achieved.

    I don’t want to be the one to tell him that west Belfast Catholics have jobs and they’ve very expensive homes, and a lot have housing executive homes, and a lot actually work in the HE and elsewhere.

    And those who don’t enjoy the equality of despair with their neighbours across the peaceline in being unemployed and living on scraps – so how does this candidate hope to solve that?

    I had a rebuttal for the other clown, but he and they really aren’t worth it.

    I’d be amazed if – outside friends and family, and even that isn’t a sure thing – they managed to garner a smattering of votes.

    The blogger here, immature and silly as he is, is right to be disappointed in them, if that’s where he placed his chips.

  • I’d be amazed if MacCionnaith doesn’t stand. Maybe they plan to drip-feed candidates a bit to garner extra publicity. A bit like the ULA have been doing in the south.

  • joeCanuck

    They are likely just dipping their toes in the water to gauge likely support. Mind you, 2 is an extremely small sample size and will be unlikely to give a meaningful result.

  • al

    Why Belfast though I thought most of éirígí’s support was based around Derry?

    Is West Belfast a tactic to gain attention from the media?

  • oracle

    Hang on these guys were with Sinn Fein when

    1) They signed the Mitchell principles which clearly proclaimed the criminality of Irish Republicanism.
    2) When Sinn Fein entered Stormont to administer British rule in occupied Ireland.
    3) When Sinn Fein let articles 2&3 of the Irish constitution be removed from the Irish constitution to pander to Unionist wishes.
    4) When Sinn Fein were doing the spade work for the acceptance of policing
    5) When Sinn Fein were identifying isolating and demonizing dissenters from within their own communities
    6) When Sinn Fein were granting Unionists a veto on all things important or for that matter even just trivial.

    So could someone please enlighten me as to what is the problem for these people, not happy at admitting that they were wrong for 30 years and thousands of people died for nothing, that the British were impartial referees in a sectarian squabble and that the SDLP were not only 100% correct in their political stance and analysis but were also more advanced at negotiating with the British.

    These stuffed Muppets are now saying that they were wrong for thirty years but now they weren’t wrong they were just wrong to think they were wrong… are they having a laugh? Is this election on April 1st

  • joeCanuck

    Undeniable, Oracle. But I would argue that it’s better to have them participating in the democratic process rather that just indulging in questionable street protests.

  • Drumlins Rock

    What about Barry Monteith in Dungannon? a sitting Eirigi councillor, is he not going to try to retain his seat?

  • fitzjameshorse1745

    0.3%………thats what Id call managing expectations.
    Looks like the revolution is on hold.

  • Mark McGregor

    Gari,

    I’m now pretty sure they’ll only run these two.

    Looks like they’ll do the pathetic tactic of letting fellow travellers deny affiliation. in 2/3 council seats.

    Shame on them all and by god they deserve to not win anything for playing that pathetic trot game.

  • Cheers Mark. Very surprising. MacCionnaith is the biggest name they have. They obviously trust him to put him in a leadership position. Makes no sense not to run him (unless he has indeed moved down south or whatever, and that is the logic). DR’s point about a sitting councillor is also surprising. No point taking councillors and letting them keep their seats despite not being elected for you if you are not going to try and defend them.

    Fellow-travellers seems like the wrong way to go too, I agree, and the opposite of the rhetoric about unabashed and unashamed revolutionaries offering an alternative etc. I thought they might have stood in Newry, but I guess they are backing Hyland instead.

  • Mark McGregor

    DR,

    Will be interesting to see if Monteith runs again, but more interesting to see if Swift will ever admit her eirigi leanings – (people have to make a living even if they are ‘revolutionaries’ it seems)

    That could bring them up to contesting circa 1% of the seats in the north.

    Is that an intervention?

    Or just arrogance and delusion?

  • Mark McGregor

    Gari,

    I hear Hylands campaign is not far from being launched, its an Assembly campaign and a Council one with eirigi folks that are so ‘anti-stormont’ doing not so plausible deniability working for him.

    Hello?

    This is the start of them becoming again the nonsense they were while in SF.

  • fitzjameshorse1745

    Indeed Id heard that Mr MacCionnaith was no longer living in Portadown. But I dont know if its true.
    Davy Hyland was talked up last time and Newry was full of posters and did respectably. And with Conor Murphy under pressure…..and Mickey Brady and Cathal Boylan hardly stellar, he might do well.
    But ultimately his intervention might be good news for Thomas O’Hanlon who had a good “water campaign”

  • Dixie Elliott

    I hate elections. If I wasn’t as poor as me Da before me and his Da before him, I’d fuck off to somewhere sunny and warm and come back after the last of the gloating and excuses for being beaten by the gloaters have been aired and put away.

    Not Australia though it’s pissing with rain down there.

    The thing is, we’ll still be just as skint after these elections as we are now, so why don’t we all sit at home and watch the clampets on TV standing outside the polling stations wondering, where the fuck is everyone?

  • Antoin Mac C.

    Westsider,Why Don’t You Stand.

    Joe,the ULA mob are only a bunch of college kids who wouldn’t know the first thing about living as an unemployed person on a council estate.Joe Higgins is their little Gerry Adams.All hail the great leader.

  • Nunoftheabove

    …surprised the right to sell smuggled cigarettes and fuel wasn’t in there somewhere too, likewise the right to limitless supplies of free cider for adolescents (what the hell do the rest of us – privileged enough to obviously take unfair advantage of our ‘right to work’ – pay our taxes FOR, after all – fair’s fair) and of course a ban on all fresh produce for all republican socialist children – popular sentiment on curry chip entitlement in oppressed republican socialist communities is said to be approaching fever pitch in the run up to polling day and salt-sugar content is a hot issue on the doorsteps generally, one is advised.

    Similarly, the public deserves to hear a lot more about their overt support for totalitarian, racist, homophobic, sexist, imperialist suicide bombers – they’re normally very audible on extending their solidarity to those ‘comrades’ and that ought to be a huge vote-winner among the credulous corner boy lumpen, layabout portion of the electorate – their core audience, presumably. After all, who’d not want to live under filthy Islamic-style totalitarian dictatorship when faced with the horrific alternative of the current 6 county jackboot regime – it’d save republican socialists the bother of having to stand in elections and lose, for one thing.

    Come on chaps, the devil’s in the detail – a nation awaits.

  • pippakin

    No intervention then, just more baying at the moon, there is room for another nationalist/republican party in the north but it seems, unless they can produce more candidates soon, Eirigi is not the one.

    The luxury of baying at the moon instead of running for election is that they can bay as much as they like without having to worry about whether it makes sense or even if anyone agrees with them. Its cop out politics.

  • tacapall

    Its not the amout of candidates they are putting up but where, Upper Falls (Andersonstown) enough said.

  • Manus McSweeny

    This is confusing Mark are you now saying that there is 582 seats available for dissenting republicans to challenge and have some level of success and not your previous accessment of 22?

    Are you argueing that eirigi should be standing in places like the shankill road and larne or are you being a bit dramatic?

    I agreed with your original guess of 22 possible winnable seats.

    Now with independants sure to stand in some of the 22 and the irsp soon to declare their standing i would think it wise for republican alternative candidates not to be standing against each other further splitting their vote for many of them are fishing from the same ponds.

    Based on that surely your not calling on eirigi to field candidates in all 22 seats cutting across other like minded candidates who have already signaled their intentions?

    I live in west belfast and i am glad after ten years of not voting i have somewhere i’d be happy to place my vote and i’ll be registering as soon as……

  • PaulT

    “the party feels the time is right to make an electoral intervention in order to further promote a resurgent socialist republicanism.”

    I think this is the failure of Eirigi.

    It should be following the SF format as a protest party at this stage, it should be standing whereever it can for the purpose of registering its supporters and to win seats as a secondary goal.

    Is there a fee to stand as a councillor? if so it can’t be much

    Personally I’d prefer to see this happen and it would be good for everyone to gain an understanding of their base.

    Two, four, ten candidates does nothing for anyone, even if they gained 10 councillors it will only build the party in those wards.

    its obvious why they are standing in SF strongholds, but standing everwhere would be so much more interesting

  • oracle

    Could someone from éirígí tell the electorate why they left Sinn Fein?
    What was the final straw that broke the camels back? and just how heavy was was this straw?

  • PaulT

    oracle, a lot of eirigi were never in SF, they have quite a young membership,

    As to why Shinners left, thats really a rerun of the civil war, and each one reached that final straw at different times.

    Global answer, SF sold out their leftwing roots and entered Stormont, SF reply is more is achievable in Stormont than on white line pickets.

    Interesting times ahead, everyone interested in politics should look forward to the TUV and Eirigi having a presence instead of hurling from the ditch

  • Nunoftheabove

    oracle

    In the event that you’re not extracting urine (bit hard to tell, soz)…a lot of them weren’t in (or anywhere next nor near) SF to begin with and it shouldn’t be forgotten that a lot of them loathed almost everything to do with the PRM even before it parted company with its leadership’s private army. Some of them are/were from the planet of the IRSPs, INLA and other left-posing groups.

    For those that were or a Provo-ward leaning, it was a combination of, I guess…to get the ball rolling:

    (i) Stormont – the concept/symbolism for some, the reality of it for others,

    (ii) decommissioning – surrenderish; for some in republicanism, the gun is virtually a principle and not just a tactic or a weapon – onto these we hold until the ‘job is done’.

    (iii) perceived failure to ‘face down the orangies’ over marching (esp. N Belfast) and perception of community identity ‘sell out’ – ‘things are no better’.

    (iv) anti-climax – “all of THAT for….THIS ?”

    (v) personal/community betrayal – “our Jimmy didn’t kill/die for this”

    (vi) perception of little or no ‘pay-off’ – few jobs or better opportunities (not least for isolated former prisoners) – no peace dividend, effectively – unmet (probably unrealistic) expectations post-conflicty, post prison-release;

    (vii) personal and party resentment against SF, particularly the leadership – ‘they were bought off’…”they are Sticks’…’they are careerists’…’they were manipulated’…’they were manipulators’…

    (viii) policing – this was a biggie.

    (ix) for some…”it was my war and I miss it so” – absence of comradeship, loss of peer/family/community status, loss of purpose in life, loss of… face

    (x) denial/delusion – “we were that close to winning…if only we’d kept going…one more crack at it”

    (xi) personal waste – “I invested everything I had in this and spent a lot of my adult life in jail…but not for this”

    (xii) ideological ‘purity’/fidelity – ‘accepting partititon can never take us to The Republic – the torch must be grabbed and kept aflame by any means necessary.

    Loads more macro and minor reasons plus of course there’s also plenty of youngsters coming through who were reared respecting, indeed idealizing conflict and idealizing those who fought in it; a lot of them have, it seems, so little of meaning in their lives that they’re throwing their lot in with this mob in the expectation of getting their tilt at being a boy soldier and of finding some sense of purpose in it, of dignifying their humdrum existences.

  • oracle

    PaulT

    Sorry but the people who set eirigi up and are involved in the day to day running of eirigi were all in Sinn Fein and for that matter were quite well known within SF so please don’t try a fobbish exercise with “were never in SF they have quite a young membership”

    Any young people associated with Eirigi do so because a more senior family member in Eirigi has a controlling influence over them, this person unquestionably would have been heavily associated with the Sinn Fein machine/movement in the past.

    Now as to SF selling out their left wing roots, they’ve been doing that for nearly 17 years and some would argue since 1983 that’s 28 years…. Do you really think that anything is to be gained by the deployment to the field of people who took between 17-28 years to realise what was happening to the political party they were working for on a daily basis?

    If you’re thick you’re thick we all can’t be professors but if you’re 17 years thick then most would believe you’re just too thick for purpose

  • oracle

    NOTA

    wasn’t tinkering with the water-flow i’m just pointing out the absolutely incredulous position of a group of people who were wearing fancy suits in Washington London and Dublin, who were wined and dined in New York and queued up for free (well paid for by shadowy sources) trips to South Africa, Spain, Palestine, and Canada to prostitute themselves selling a process that they now think is a sell-out.

    Completely and utterly bizzare

  • Neil

    Problem for Eirigi is that they don’t have much to offer, other than going back to the beginning as a kind of SF Mk II. And who knows, maybe after 30 years they’d be signing up to some new kind of devolution and having people split from their movement to form a new Eirigi, SF Mk III.

    I also live in the West, the missus is a regular complainer about SF, for many of the reasons fleshed out by NOTA, above. When they called to the door before the Westminster election they were made to regret it, she gave them a right good ballicking. Just residual bad feeling towards the shinners, and I can understand where she’s coming from.

    Having said that, where was she on polling day? Oliver Plunkett, sticking Xs down by the SF boxes.

    This is where Eirigi’s main problem lie. They don’t appear to have much of a strategy – possibly even less now that they’re handing over their ‘outside the tent pissing in’ status. Violence is according to Eirigi not a viable strategy, so what’s the plan? Start over, without the violence? I don’t think many will buy that plan.

    Meanwhile that residual support for SF, the almost Pavlovian response to the sight of a ballot paper will keep SF where they are.

  • Drumlins Rock

    As a non Republican, might I also suggest some were “Hamiltons & Bradshaws” not achieving their ambitions they would rather jump ship and be big fish in a smaller pond, than stick it out on the back benches.

  • Nunoftheabove

    Oracle

    I don’t think it is that bizarre; for sure, some of them allowed themselves to be star-struck by the pace of events and were all too amenable to cheap flattery, important destinations, business class flights and the rest of it but after decades of dehumanization and ghettoization (some of it self-imposed) and dreary self-dialogue and elitism (I can remember once Danny Morrison saying that what made Republicans right was, in effect, their….. certainty that they were right (as evidenced by their willingness to die for their beliefs)) – this was perhaps inevitable. Notwithstanding that though, it took some of them time to realize that they were going to get (or rather, had gotten) very little out of ‘it’; besides, you wouldn’t to be too independent minded to feel claustrophobic in Stalinist SF these days.

    For some, they feel more themselves outside of the tent pissing in – that’s where their mates/former comrades are and besides, being outside the tent is much easier – you get to remain a born-again serial complainer, you have the advantage of still blaming the Brits (and also now SF) for every bloody thing that’s wrong in life (do they honestly still not get it that the Brits haven’t given a shit for a very long time ?) and you never ever under any circumstances have to contribute anything to public life or to your community, other than perhaps occasional and unprovoked bouts of public disorder, particpating in and condoning a lazy entitlement-heavy, state-dependency culture.

    Must make them feel like their old self-pitying solipsistic conspiratorial selves again.

  • PaulT

    Oracle, hadn’t realised you were asking a rectorical question

    on the subject of thickness it does seem to have cross-community support, at what point did Jimbo realise the DUP had DUPe their supporters, sometime after attending the talks at St Andrews!!!! hopefully the thickness in the nationalist community can be confined so it doesn’t end up with a sizable ‘garden centre’ non-voting %

    Although the rewards are greater elsewhere for selling a ‘sell-out process’ and politicans doing the selling-out get to retire to the ‘mainland’ and a comfy seat in the Lords

  • “That the British were impartial referees in a sectarian squabble.”

    Oracle,

    That is some statement, there is hardly an Englishman alive who believes this crap, most understand why the British State is still in the north and it is not act as referee. Out of interest can you name a single historical event, any where in the world, in which the British state acted as an impartial referee, get real, like all States it acts in self interest.

    Funny how you guys want to give éirígí’ advice, not one of you would vote for them; and were they to stand in countless seats and do badly you would all be the first to crowe.

    Understandably, Éirigí wish to put a toe in the water to see how things may or may not turn out. This is a comparatively new party, which is steeped in an anti electoral history, they would be foolish to do it any other way, not least because the leadership must carry its members with them. It took SF decades to get to this stage and then it split.

    Someone mentioned the Trots, where the trots have fallen down in recent years when they have stood candidates, they have spread themselves to thin, despite lacking the manpower to mount an effective electoral campaign in more than a very small number of seats. Thus the electorate and leftist like I, saw them using the ballot box as a party building exercise and not to help working class people build better lives.

  • Nunoftheabove

    Mickhall

    What is the British strategic, military and/or economic self interest in the north please and do you acknowledge that it has changed, say, over the course of the last 50 years ?

  • PaulT

    Mickhall, Eirigi are hardly steeped in any kind of history they’ve existed for 5 minutes.

    SF as I said before. as a protest party, use to and still do stand where they have no chance, its a headcount excercise, from which to build a base.

    I’m confused how you criticise using the ballot box to build a party, how else do you enact change without a mandate?

  • fordprefect

    Nun
    Have you ever been offered a job on Fox News? If not, you should be, near enough every post of yours is full of bile and invective and insulting working class people, you would make a great anchor for them!

  • sdelaneys

    Mark
    “I hear Hylands campaign is not far from being launched, its an Assembly campaign and a Council one with eirigi folks that are so ‘anti-stormont’ doing not so plausible deniability working for him.”

    Hyland is standing for the council, not the assembly.

  • fitzjameshorse1745

    Drumlins Rock its difficult to think that anyone would be in the likes of éirigí as a smart career move (like Harry Hamilton…I cant agree on Ms Bradshaw). Essentially the dissidents are not team players….eg MacCionnaith and there are several egos around the dissident movement (I believe Brian Rowan used the phrase “muddled” to describe them.
    Most of the comments Ive heard from dissidents and their apologists (and Im sure youve seen them also) dont really strike me as “careerist” ….more a cry for attention.

  • Dixie Elliott

    Did anyone hear McGuinness on UTV Live? I nearly choked to death on a chocolate digestive when I heard him say…

    “That formerly disaffected Republicans who had attended these groups [he refers to them as so called ‘dissidents’] protests in the recent past had come to him and said they were wrong.”

    Now I’ve heard Marty lying many times, even to the Saville Inquiry when they eventually forced him to attend it, but who the fuck in their right mind would believe that any ‘disaffected’ Republican would turn to Marty and say they were wrong?

    Go forth son and sin no more….

  • fitzjameshorse1745

    a British chocolate digestive I suppose.

  • Antoin Mac C.

    Maybe all the others shud resign and stand as non-independents in a splitters alliance,and join forces with each other in a breakaway coalition.If this venture is successfull in ten years time they cud maybe push the boat out and stand one in the east and one in the aran islands.A congress cud be formed with disillusioned members of the real first international.They cud send a delegate to gaza in 5 years time in support of the egyptian revolution currently underway.If the sea water is too cold,then they cud hold back for another 43.79 years and count the amount of people who emmigrated from this years unemployment pool of half a million+.If these policies fail they cud return to doctrinaire republicanism from the gospel according to SMULLENS>The author of the now infamous INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION,written 40 years ago.
    A brilliant revision of the invention of the STEAM TRAIN in 1847.

  • Nunoftheabove

    fordperfect

    “insulting working class people” ? Where have I done that or even referred to working class people ?

  • fitzy

    Mark – I understand the critique on the number of seats being contested, but I don’t see your thoughts on the actual candidates. I’m very familiar (friend of the family) with one of the candidates, and I find him to be an upstanding republican socialist activist. He may have changed party allegiance, but from what I can tell, his basic political ideology is the same as it always has been.

  • Mark McGregor

    fitzy,

    I have no issue with either of the candidates. I would consider voting for them or similar but eirigi won’t be providing that option.

  • “What is the British strategic, military and/or economic self interest in the north please and do you acknowledge that it has changed, say, over the course of the last 50 years ?”

    NOTA

    No, the core of it has not changed, if you take away all the spin and the tweaks here and there, the British States position today is not that different from what it was 50 years ago.

    By this I mean its main aim over the last 40 odd years and more has been to maintain the six counties as an integral part of the United Kingdom. When it comes to change in Ireland, the UK acts much like Mubarak, in that it promises some time in the future it will bow to the democratic demands of the people [who reside in the six] but were that day to come, myself I would not bet my pension on them following through on this.

    That is why I asked if oracle could give me an example of the UK state acting as an impartial referee, I am not surprised they has sidesteped my question, as Power politics just does not work like that.
    ————-
    PaulT

    Your well aware that the core of the Éirigí membership came out of SF, thus of course they are steeped in republican history, believe it or not when folk join a political party they are not an empty husk, they bring with them a lifetime of political baggage.

  • Nunoftheabove

    Mickhall

    I’m afraid you haven’t answered my question – you’ve said what you think the British position is – debate-worthy in itself , mind- but you’ve not explained why it holds to that position.

    I asked this question at what was in effect an RSF event about 16 years ago and got half laughed at – when I insisted on asking again, they mumbled something almost literally incomprehensible about Ballykelly and ‘American fighter planes’.

  • NOTA

    But does it matter why the UK state holds to this position, what is pretty clear is simply that they do. Over the last decades they have invested a great deal of money and man power in maintaining the north within the UK.

    I feel there are a host of differing reasons why they have done this, some honourable even, but what they boil down to is if they were to withdraw from the six counties where would that leave the UK as a whole? It would certainly embolden the peoples of Scotland and Wales to take a similar step and with democratic republics on its doorstep (I am presuming they would dump Betsy in the bin) all those who had a vested interest in having a monarch would have to rearrange there direct line to privilege, wealth and power.

    There is also the way the British State operates, in many was it is still mediaeval in that when push comes to shove it is totally top down and Monarch centric. This is one of the few nations which claim to be democratic in which the armed forces and I think the police, judiciary still swear allegiance to a heredity monarch and has one of its parliamentary chambers totally unelected.

    Of course there are more profound and deeper reasons as to why they maintain the link, but this surface impression should do to be going on with, as sadly time is my master today.

    I would just add if the British people were given a vote on this Ireland would be reunited as a single state tomorrow.

  • tacapall

    Simply, Ireland is Britains Cuba.

  • pippakin

    The north, Scotland and Wales are only ever one election away from separation from England. In fact if anyone bothered to ask the English, and they won’t, I have no doubt at all that the Irish Scots and Welsh would not need to bother with their own elections.

    The fact is that voters in Scotland and Wales consistently and repeatedly vote for the union and as I said above no one will ask the English.

  • Nunoftheabove

    Mickhall

    Doesn’t add up to much other than an unevidenced conspiracy really – just as I suspected I’m afraid – if they had a pain-free way out (compliant unionists, principally, as well as the absence of difficult international precedents diplomatically), disengagement would suit them perfectly well I’d have thought. It would suit the free state a hell of a lot less frankly, that is even more true now than it was before but it’s been true for a very long time there also.

    Tacapall

    Very 1908s but when you think of it still has a slight echo now but sure who could blame for that – a politically problematic and hugely expensive North (albeit they created that problem 90 years earlier) and a southern state – more latterly FS business partner – run by crooks.

  • The whole essence of the UK state is a conspiracy old chap, that is why it does not have a written constitution. Instead of shifting you ground by throwing out conspiracy theories, why not tell me why Ireland is still not reunited, despite the overwhelming majority of Irish and British people being in favour of it? (Almost all UK, i e England, Scotland and Wales, opinion polls taken over the last 40 years have supported withdrawal)

    What you are failing to do is separate the majority of English people who are in favour of reunification and its governing elites who are not. For christ sake, if these folk were in favour of reunification as you claim, they would have done it, not fought tooth and nail against it.

    By the way, when the UK withdrew from the south it did not even cause a single ripple diplomatically, how could it, when back then, as now, most of the world believes the British presence in Ireland is unfinished business from the late unlamented British empire and so it is.

  • Antoin Mac C.

    Pippakin,The English Labour Party objective of devolution for ireland in 1972 has been a successful disaster.Do you think it was worth almost 4000 lives?Who’s interests did they have at heart?The residents of Moss-side?
    Kilburn?Govanhill?Shankill?…..or maybe jolly good english interests?

  • Mark McGregor

    btw: I’d prefer to see McCusker get in for éirígi over Chopper if only one was to win. I’ve a lot more time for him than he has for me 😉

    He’d make for interesting times on BCC, a smart cookie.

    I think he has more chance of getting a quota in the Lower Falls even though Pádraic is the bigger ‘name’.

    Best of luck to both of them. Heck, I may even offer to climb a ladder – though I’d guess the offer would be declined.

  • Nunoftheabove

    Mickhall

    I’m afraid that you still haven’t quantified the rationale for Britian staying or produced any evidence in support of your governing elite theory.

    Let’s consider your argument that the British “fought tooth and nail” against the prospect of reunification – are you honetly saying that without your tongue being in your cheek and arguing that the British/English ruling class elite would have faced down the unionists had they woken up at the Hillsbsorough or St Andrews talks one morning and said “Ok guys, you can go home now – we’re happy with throwing our lot into a UI outside of the UK?” and insisted on ignoring their acquiesence and on ‘staying’ ?

    As to the “the overwhelming majority of Irish and British people being in favour of it”. ….so by the same token you would argue that the absence of the death penalty in Britian is also scandalously undemocratic ?

    – that’s not what the GFA endorsement tends to suggest in the case of both parts of Ireland N & S (where was the outrage in either Ireland or Britain about withdrawl not even being formally within the scope of the negotiations ? Again, are you telling me that Dublin negotiated on the basis of a profoundly undemocratic (even anti-democratic) platform when it engaged with the UK in the run-up to the agreement ? ) so it can scarcely be described as overwhelming, I think.

    In my view, the northern state should never have been established and remains an aberrance. You could at least acknowledge that Carsonite unionism didn’t want it as a ‘solution’ either at the time though.

    To suggest though that the historical context for and the drivers of UK and Dublin government policy on the matter (to say nothing, for the moment, about shifts in public opinion) is in effect the same now as it was then doesn’t seem to me to be capable of surviving collision with the facts.

  • Nota

    Your going in circles mate, first you tell us the British elites support reunification [if only they could, were it not for those nasty unionists] and then you repeat the lies told at the time about partition never being intended to be permanent.

    I say to you again, it is not what the British say which is important but what they do.

    1/ They failed to live up to the promise that partition would only be temporally.

    2/ The northern statelet is more secure today than it has been for decades. All because of British shenanigans.

    I am bewildered why you mention public opinion, for as far as the north is concerned there has been very little shift in public opinion since the sectarian state was created. The majority of Irish and British people have almost always opposed the northern statelet and supported reunification. The endorsement votes over the GFA were different entirely and by the way the British people as a whole were not given the opportunity to vote on this, despite having to finance much of it.

    The fact is the UK will not allow a UK and Ireland wide joint referendum on reunification. If they were to do so, it would put this issue to bed for generations, or permanently if the vote was yes.

    The wretched place was created by force of arms and the threats of terrible war and it should be sent into the dustbin of history by the democratic will of the people.

    Your argument totally falls down, for you claim the UK government had moved from your first position; that of a neutral referee, to now being an advocate of reunification if only those pesky unionists would let them. Whilst all evidence on the ground points to them being advocates of maintaining the UK in its present form.

    Don’t take my word for it, read the words and look at the actions of the last three British prime ministers, Cameron, stanch unionists, Brown, ditto, and the war criminal and pocket liner Blair, yet another stanch unionist, I am not just saying this this, it is how they describe themselves

    As to hanging, f- – – off and pull someones else’s chain.

  • Manus McSweeny

    Nonoftheabove,

    éirígí provided the answer to your question a while ago in an articleabout why Britain don’t want to see a united Ireland éirígí wrapped it up in a Quote from Jack Straw when he said the following:

    A broken-up United Kingdom would not be in the interests of Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland, but especially not England. Our voting power in the European Union would diminish. We’d slip down in the world league GDP tables. Our case for staying in the G8 would diminish and there could easily be an assault on our permanent seat in the UN Security Council.

    Hope that provides the clarity you’ve been asking of Mick

  • Manus

    Indeed, if you add in how the British politicos are always going on about punching above their weight on the international stage, you get an idea of why they are so keen to remain in Ireland.

    As I mentioned earlier it is the whole psyche of how these folk behave and engage.

    all the best

  • Nunoftheabove

    Mickhall

    Utterly charmed, I’m sure.

    + “first you tell us the British elites support reunification” – No, I didn’t say that “the elites” supported reunification.

    + “and then you repeat the lies told at the time about partition never being intended to be permanent”. – I did not even mention partition never being intended to be permanent – perhaps you’re (sic) mistaking my posts for someone else’s, perhaps you’re (sic) just simply projecting. I figure it’s probably much more likely to be the latter.

    + “They failed to live up to the promise that partition would only be temporally. – Yes; the people who made those false promises and commitments are now dead as are the people in whose interests such commitments were made – are you honestly saying that the interests of those people and the current British government and/or the scary “elites” are the same ?

    + “The northern statelet is more secure today than it has been for decades. All because of British shenanigans.” – I assume you mean that it is secure in the sense of being tied into the UK for as far into the future as it’s possible to see. If so, I agree – the internationally recognized principle of consent is now, as it were, fact’ and not opposed by anyone in a position to challenge it whether you, I or anyone else likes it or not. I don’t, but that’s life and I suspect that my reasons for saying so would be different to yours. Don’t necessarily agree on the shenanigans though although again only you know what you mean by that.

    + “The majority of Irish and British people have almost always opposed the northern statelet” – in what ways have the majority opposed it ? Don’t you think it’s fair to say that describing public opinion on the matter – a great deal of the time not particularly passionately held public opinion (or even well-intentioned)– as representing opposition to partition is something of an exaggeration ? For the record, I would say so.

    + “The endorsement votes over the GFA were different entirely and by the way the British people as a whole were not given the opportunity to vote on this, despite having to finance much of it”. Are you honestly saying to me with a straight face that they would have opposed it insofar as they gave a shit about it ?! Have you ever visited Britain ?!

    + “The fact is the UK will not allow a UK and Ireland wide joint referendum on reunification” – because there is no requirement on them to do, it would not fly with the British public. There’s no clamour for it in southern Ireland either or indeed within the 6 counties – what would the purpose of it be exactly in 2011 ?

    + “If they were to do so, it would put this issue to bed for generations, or permanently if the vote was yes”. – I think there’s two sizeable ‘ifs’ there – one is the yes vote, the other is what you assume would follow if it happened. At this stage, you’d need to be a wee bit more specific on the ill for which you think a yes vote would represent a cure and you also need to get your head around the south’s willingness – or otherwise – to accept the outcome; probably reason enough for them to oppose the very idea from the get-go – means they can’t really be tested on it and thus their bogus nationalist credentials embarrass them.

    + “The wretched place was created by force of arms and the threats of terrible war and it should be sent into the dustbin of history by the democratic will of the people”. – it’s a wretched idea for a state – of course it is – and there are tremendous flaws right at its core but the old “only one form of definition of ‘the people’ and only one form of outcome based on their will do” argument is tired and empty and unsupported now by the vast majority of the democratically elected politicians on this and ‘the other’ island. Howl at the moon about it all you like but that needs faced. Aspire all you like to an alternative but stop inventing conspiracy theories about it and crying out for a justice that you’re not any longer – to a very significant extent – materially being denied (Ok, a handful of orange parades, I’ll give you that…what else ?). Unless of course you’re just a straightforward right wing catholic nationalist, in which case I frankly couldn’t care less what you think about any bloody thing.

  • Nunoftheabove

    Manus McSweeny

    An Eirigi scoop !! Those people are almost frightening by sole virtue of their apparently entirely unselfconscious stupidity.

    Regarding Mr Mac Cionnaith’s reference to “Jack Straw’s assertion that the Britain must remain in Ireland in order to maintain its prominent status in bodies such as NATO, the EU and the UN”, if the basis of his remark is simply the quote you provided then I’m afraid you give me no option other than to conclude that some of these Eirigi ‘comrades’ are perhaps….thick as champ ?

    Can hardly wait for their next insightful critique of the banal blethering of the ruling class elite as articulated by the mediocre Jack Straw.

    Cheers for the giggle, seriously.

  • “Have you ever visited Britain ?!”

    NOTA
    I really do not have the time to answer your points, but if you wish let me know and I will return later. But it might help if I tell you I am English, I would not wish you to get the wrong idea and go off on a rant.

    Being English, I understand better than most how our political elites work, by the way I use that word ‘elites’ because these days that is exactly what they are, on most issues you cannot get a cigaret paper between them and Ireland is one of those issues.

    Far from not mentioning partition, it was you who brought it into the debate when you wrote.

    “You could at least acknowledge that Carsonite unionism didn’t want it as a ‘solution’ either at the time though.”

    In most of your post we are covering old ground again, but I would sum up the main difference between you and I as you recognize, nay support the status quo, whereas I believe it came about due to a great injustice and this fact must not be papered over if it leaves the villain of the peace in control.

    To me your point of view is equal to a thief stealing my home and property and down the road his offspring still living high on the hog. Or to put it into a modren political context, Israel stealing Palestinian land and then as they do today, demanding Palestinians make concessions if they are to gain even a third back and the USA and UK saying, gee, that is a great idea, lets find/create a Palestinian satrap who will carry out this wheeze.

    My philosophy is to resist, yours is to bend the knee, forget about the past, and accept your lot and hope your masters will send you a few scraps from their table.

  • Nunoftheabove

    Mickhall

    I sincerely regret the time you took writing that response too, believe me. Except for the delightful “Being English, I understand better than most how our political elites work” line though – lovely hurling altogether comrade – second best giggle of the day so far (a close run thing though – that Jack Straw line of your equally oppressed mate Manus took some beating though, let’s be fair).

    There’s something tremendously solipsistic about your outlook, invisible elites….conspiracies….persecution….self-pity.

    I wouldn’t bend my knee to anybody mate. I accept the status quo because it’s the only one there is or is likely to be before I’ve popped my clogs – it ain’t the same reality as I was born into. Do I support it ? Not entirely unconditionally, no. Occasionally aspects of it are annoying but on balance I have taken a conscious decision to not waste my life in some juvenile huff of non-recognition and nasty silly sloganeering about how evil it all is and how entitled I am.

    I am well off my knees, trust me. Surviving the best way I can given the various opportunities and challenges that are put before me – I take personal responsibilitiy for my actions, no chips on my shoulder. I don’t blame anyone for how I am or where I am or what might have been or what is. I have a considerable degree of choice in my life and make my choices as sensibly as I can – like most folks, I make my share of mistakes but enjoy the considerable freedoms that I have, whether they be to work, to travel, to entertain myself, to consume, to speak and to demonstrate, freedom of thought, to be free of intimidation and harassment and to live relatively securely. Then only person I blame for what I don’t have is me, the only person I thank for what I do have is me and those close to me who helped.

    You’re the one who seems to be in a servile place – self-imposed servility, for the most part.

    Life ? Go get one, Englander.

  • Manus McSweeny

    nonoftheabove must have been the answer to the question which level of education have you acheived.

    so for the slow i’ll provide a link and no it was’nt a quote from breandan Mac Cionnaith in was as i said jack straw http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/question_time/5388078.stm

    the accusation of eirigi being think as champ coming from some thick chump is hilarious keep spewwing your rubbish and hopefully you’ll take off your tin foil hat and join the rest of us in the real world.

    the british elite want a united ireland lol!

    you should be on a stage pure genius comic genius that is!

    take yourself off i hear uncle sam calling you!

  • Manus McSweeny

    6th oct 2010

    david cameron

    When I say I am Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, I really mean it.

    England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland – we’re weaker apart, stronger together, so together is the way we must always stay.

    i suppose in nonoftheaboves world when you translate this quote it actaully means – Britain out of ireland! up the republic!

    carlsburg don’t do idiots but if they did………… lol!

  • Nunoftheabove

    Manus

    Dear dear me. It was MacCionnaith quoting Straw as I said – been at the oul’ literacy evening classes wrong, have we ?

    http://www.eirigi.org/latest/latest081010.html

    Manus, if you believe that English PMs of the character of Cameron believe in everything they say and that their actions reflect this as a matter of course then I’d suggest that you enrol in additional evening classes – history and common sense would be a good start…or was Blair lying when he admitted that he lied druing the peace process negotiations ?….I’d imagine that that’s a real head-thumper for you, comrade.

    Carlsberg Special Brew obviously do do idiocy – and it feels like it’s the drink of choice for some members and supporters of eirigi.

    🙂