“The events of 1641 transformed Irish history and, as a result, can be justly said to have transformed British and world history as well.”

The BBC notes the online publication of controversial historical accounts of the 1641 rebellion in Ireland.

It’s the result of a three-year project, led by researchers at the Universities of University of Cambridge and The University of Aberdeen and Trinity College Dublin, in which 19,000 pages of the original depositions were transcribed.

From the 1641 depositions website

Traditionally the rebellion was thought to be sufficiently explained as an inevitable response to the plantation in Ulster.  Nowadays most scholars see that as an oversimplification and treat the immediate outbreak of rebellion as a response to political developments in all three of the Stuart kingdoms.  The deterioration of the condition of Catholics under Lord Deputy Thomas Wentworth’s rule, the success of the Scottish revolt and the breakdown in relations between the king and the English parliament led Catholics in Ireland who retained property and social position to fear that they were in danger of expropriation and persecution if the power of the king were to be significantly limited.  In the belief that the king was seeking allies to assist him in defending his prerogative, they entered into a complex conspiracy to seize control of the Irish government on his behalf.

As yesterday’s Irish Times reported, President Mary McAleese and Lord Bannside, Ian Paisley Snr, were at the launch.

It might have been a slightly awkward occasion. After all, as President McAleese put it, facts and truth had been casualties along the way in the “wildly divergent accounts in both the Catholic and Protestant historical narratives”, of the events of 1641.

But there was a sense of ease as Lord Bannside listened along with his wife, his son Kyle and daughter Sharon, in a room filled with academics and representatives from the National Library, the National Gallery, as well as the Indian ambassador, PS Raghavan, Andrew Staunton of the British embassy and Aurelie Bonal, of the French embassy.

They stood silently while President McAleese set that other October 22nd in context – “Ireland was a powder keg . . . in the wake of the Elizabethan conquest . . .” – and described a rebellion intended by the instigators as a “conservative coup, spun out of control”.

She said there was “everything to be gained from interrogating the past calmly and coherently, in order to understand each other’s passions more comprehensively . . . to help us transcend those baleful forces of history so that we can make a new history of good neighbourliness . . .”

Lord Bannside, occasionally fading almost to inaudibility, also focused on what the exhibition could teach us.

“Our fellow countrymen and women in the 1600s knew trouble as we have, thank God, never known it. The testimonials before us in this exhibition tell in graphic detail the losses they sustained and the crimes carried out against them. These troubles were not borne by one social class, or another, or by one gender or another. They were not limited by age, nor limited by religious belief.

“Perhaps the most telling aspect of this material is that it bears witness to the scale of the wrongdoing while at the same time individualising it. Here lie tragic stories of individuals – here too is a dark story of our land.

“To learn this story, I believe, is to know who we are, why we have had to witness our own trouble, and why we live in a divided island . . . May we really learn what this exhibition can really teach us.”

Adds  From a previous post on a similar theme comes this relevant quote from Stephen Fry in 2006

In the end, I suppose history is all about imagination rather than facts. If you cannot imagine yourself wanting to riot against Catholic emancipation, say, or becoming an early Tory and signing up to fight with the Old Pretender, or cheering on Prynne as the theatres are closed and Puritanism holds sway … knowing is not enough. If you cannot feel what our ancestors felt when they cried: ‘Wilkes and Liberty!’ or, indeed, cried: ‘Death to Wilkes!’, if you cannot feel with them, then all you can do is judge them and condemn them, or praise them and over-adulate them.

History is not the story of strangers, aliens from another realm; it is the story of us had we been born a little earlier. History is memory; we have to remember what it is like to be a Roman, or a Jacobite or a Chartist or even – if we dare, and we should dare – a Nazi. History is not abstraction, it is the enemy of abstraction.

, , , ,

  • Munsterview

    Nevin,

    Remembered the Sagart Saoi Fein and thought that same thing !

    My God but the pipe would go out a fair few times, maps would be out and the room paced as each name would trigger another ten or more historical characters ! Siochain De Leis !

  • Munsterview

    Hard to say, there were so many smoldering religious, political and social volcanoes, never mind personalities that any one could have triggered the whole thing off.

    And then there was Ireland !

  • MV, George Hill provides this explanation for Coll the father:

    “This son of Gillaspick was known among his island-
    kinsmen as Coll Keitache mac Gillaspick vic Coll of Colonsay. He received the sobriquet of Ciatach, which may be latinised ambi-dexter, from the fact of his being able to use both hands with equal dexterity.”

    Coll was born at Loughlinch in north Antrim, about five miles south of the Giants Causeway.

  • MV, there’s only one Maskey in the whole of Griffith’s Valuation of Ireland – Hugh Maskey from the parish of Raloo, near Larne. Perhaps he was a Mackey gone wrong 😉

  • Munsterview

    Unfortunately more than one Maskey here…….. possibly six or eight so far ! One of these days I will have a few hours to spare, tracks left all over the place and should lead to some interesting conclusions!

  • PaddyReilly

    With the exception of one particular false flag poser poster, all republican reaction in this and other threads to these terrible events have been sober and measured. I have seen nothing from Republican, Nationalists or Catholic sources that in any way detracted from these terrible events. I even pointed out that in some instances the Planters had actually acquired the lands concerned arising out of unredeemed mortgages freely entered into by Catholic Gentry, so the lands were legitimately forfeit.

    I’m not sure what this is meant to be about. History is history and best left as such. Using it as a topic for political debate among the factions of centuries later is plainly ridiculous, since the composition of the factions has changed in the meantime. Confine the list of your grievances to those things you have yourself experienced, possibly even those things you heard from your granny: but those things you have only read about have nothing to do with the present.

  • Alan Maskey

    Brendan Behan amongst others used to go on that the planters were the scum of Scotland, North England. Makes sense on economic grounds as they had to move with little to lose by staying in the Scottish lowlands/borderlands.
    Demographic patterns do ebb and flow and there have been studies a plenty on this, most obviously leading up to the 1840’s Irish Holocaust.
    Migratory patterns also have their, er patterns. That can be seen by Irish migration to London from almost a century before Black 47.
    As well as technology, recession played a big part in the wars of the Reformation, it adding to the supply of inconscionable mercenaries.
    The Swiss Guard, who guard our Holy Father, Christ’s vicar on earth, are children of that era when, the Swiss apart, reliable mercenaries were hard to come by.
    So, there is an interesting side tale in this tale of conquest.

  • ThomasMourne

    The basic problem with any form of nationalism – Irish, Israeli, English, Chinese or whatever – is the idea that a certain ‘people’ have a rightful claim to a particular territory.

    In the long-term such a notion is ridiculous given the physical, economic and social changes that take place.

    Why can’t supposedly sensible people accept that our short term on this planet gives us one chance only to make life better for ourselves and for humanity.

    That will not be done by narrow-minded political argument and by continually harking back to the sins of our ancestors. It’s history – we might learn from it, but we cannot change it.

  • Tourista

    Brendan Behan used to soil himself on purpose whenever the coppers picked him up out of the gutter, which happened on a frequent basis. That’s what the son of a cop in Dublin told me. He said one time they told him he better not sh*t his pants again and he started luaghing and did so. They stopped the car and beat the piss out of him.

    The next morning his mom came to the police station and yelled about her “poor boy”. Behan was almost 40 at that point and living with his mum.

  • Drumlins Rock

    wonder did dear Brendan say the same thing about all the Irish who emigrated to the england, the states, australia etc. and maybe he would also apply it to the immigrants arriving in Ireland in recent years? As we all know it is rarely the case, it is a very mixed group things dont change that much, and negative perceptions of immigrants persist.

  • Archie Noble

    Alan and Drumlins Rock Brendan Behan was quoting not giving his opinion. The actual phrase if I recall correctly was
    “The scum of two nations”.

  • Munsterview

    Brendan at the height of his fame was asked during a function in New York by the then Mayor to propose a toast to the city. He did as follows !

    “….Here is to the City Of New York, the person that hates you, hates the human race !…”

    Hardly a racists !

  • another

    “possibly even those things you heard from your granny”

    No, that’s what gave many of the leading Provo dissidents their oxygen.

    Let’s just live in the moment.

  • Alan Maskey

    James Connolly, Ireland’s real 20th century hero (and Sister Scotland’s) also had unkind things to say about Irish Americans and Belgians. Behan is significant as he came from a true Republican background. He also had a keen appreciation of its silly, romantic side.
    The great divide will continue in the six counties and beyond. It was formed at a time of siesmic shifts, reinforced by, for Ireland, major events and the last 40 wretched years were not our finest hour.
    To get back to Behan: his da fought in 1916, as did old Charlie Goulding and his uncle wrote the stirring Irish national anthem. The Romantics who marched into the GPO in 1916 were good men. Good but very blind. I am proud of them.
    But Eamonn McCann, peace be upon him, did do his own rewrite some years ago when Bertie was busy snatching it back from the Provo ghouls.
    http://saoirse32.blogsome.com/2006/04/17/most-authentic-claimants-to-rising-legacy-are-rsf/

    So 1916 has been bent out of all shape. 1641, with even less documents, is no different.

    Having occasion recently to visit West Cork (but not the magical kingsdom of Kerry), imagine my surprise when I was told West Cork brought the British Empire to its knees. This happened as a result of the Kilmicheal Ambush that Kevin Myers has made a good living slagging off. I am sure he will get a few columns out of this latest molehill. I would imagine that local historians will do something better with the material and with the dream weavers of West Cork.
    For my part, I am going to make a (locally) interesting donation of a historical document to my local Anglican church. This is a big step for me. Today, I opened the door and, with faithful dog, Garryowen, at heel, I told the three young guys to fuck off as I don’t like Mormons, They said they were from Sky TV. I apologised and said I don’t like Sky TV either.
    So little steps. I would imagine Catholic, Protestant and the rest might be united by about 2641. Tone will be proud.

  • Munsterview

    “….For my part, I am going to make a (locally) interesting donation of a historical document to my local Anglican church…….”

    I do not think that they will take in toilet paper !

  • Congal Claen

    Hi Alan,

    Many a United Irishman joined the OO after the rising for a variety of reasons. I don’t think it’s a foregone conclusion that Wolfe Tone would still be considered a nationalist – if he were alive today.

  • Greenflag

    Well said DR – I was about to make the same point . Brendan Behan could be an awful eejit at times especially when inebriated and that was alas most of the time towards the end of his short life. An awful shame and waste that the man drank himself to death 🙁

  • Greenflag

    MV,

    If Brendan were live today he might be a bit taken aback by ‘the ‘hatred’ oft expressed by many Americans for New York City.. Not all of NYC of course -mostly that part of the city known as Wall St and particularly directed at topmost ‘scum’ in the largest banks, hedge funds , insurance corporations etc .

    The current Mayor Bloomberg would I suspect be very reticent at inviting Brendan Behan were he alive today to propose a toast to the city .;)

  • PaddyReilly

    My thoughts entirely: if I was in charge of Slugger I would ban any discussion of events before the year 2000. But I might be unpopular, as I live not in the grievous past or unsettled present but in the unified future. But some people (not me) have very young grannies, to whom they would have to resort to find out about such topics as Enniskillen.

    The basic problem with any form of nationalism – Irish, Israeli, English, Chinese or whatever – is the idea that a certain ‘people’ have a rightful claim to a particular territory

    A problem for Israelis, but Irish nationality is generally extended to all persons born on the island of Ireland and their children and grandchildren, so no difficulties arise here.

  • Greenflag

    thomas mourne ,

    Very idealistic and commendable long term very long term . Nationalism like ‘religion’ or any ‘ideology’ is like arsenic not harmful in small doses . It’s when it (they ) develop into their most extreme manifestations is when the proverbial fit hits the shan and the bodies pile up. Noteworthy examples today would include North Korea and Islamic fanaticism in the Middle and Near East. We mayalso be witnessing in it’s early stages a similar ‘extremist’ concoction of ‘racism + nationalism + right wing corporate financed fascism emerging in the USA with the tea partiers and the lunatic fringe of the GOP 🙁 A similar anti immigrant trend is seen also in parts of the EU .

    The ‘notion’ of nationalism is not ridiculous . It was a natural development from the consolidation of territories under kingship in feudal times which then led over centuries to more representative government and that to mercantilism and national economic later imperial expansion .

    The UK was and is an attempt to combine sub nationalisms . (English, Scots , Welsh and Irish) into one political entity which succeeded as long as Britain had a world empire . The gradual decline of Britain in the past 65 years has put pressure on the current union . The EU is an ongoing experiment to weld even more sub nationalisms into a form of supra ‘nationalism’ in response to world economic forces .

    ‘Why can’t supposedly sensible people ‘

    Because people are not always ‘sensible’ and sometimes even amongst those who clamber to the top of the political power tree not even ‘rational’ . People have very different ‘motivations’ . Can anyone bar a clinical psychiatrist explain the motivations of a man ( Bernie Madoff) who looted 60 billion dollars in the world’s biggest ever Ponzi scheme ? Or the motivations of the leaders of the current North Korea regime ? or countless other CEO executives who pay themselves thousands of times what their average employees earn ?

    ‘That will not be done by narrow-minded political argument and by continually harking back to the sins of our ancestors’

    True . In the absence of having any ideas or power or the finances or the politics to implement a better future -it’s so much easier to hark back . But it’s not all negative either . Harking back can also shed light on how far or how little we have come and progressed although it might not sound or look like a lot at this time . Still I can agree it can be overdone .
    ‘It’s history – we might learn from it, but we cannot change it.’

    I think the lesson of history is that we don’t learn from history or it’s so very little that it has little bearing on human behaviour when the curtain is lifted on the next ‘stage ‘ of history.

    As to not changing it – again true -but that does not mean historians , politicians and others haven’t tried and even succeeded for long enough for the newly minted truth to become accepted myth /truth and conventional wisdom .

    As an example to the above -Most Americans today still believe that North America and South America were very sparsely populated (1 million to 3 million ) before the Europeans arrived in numbers . Anthropologists and Paleontologists and other experts now are saying that Mexico alone had about 22 million people i.e more than Portugal and Spain combined and the entire continent up to 100 million people . Most of whom 95% died due to lack of resistance to common european infectious diseases over a period of a century or more . Most Amerindians died without even seeing a european .

    Had ‘european ‘ settlers succumbed to Amerindian ‘infectious’ diseases in similar numbers (as might have happened had the ancestors of amerindians according to one school of thought – not hunted most of their larger mammals to extinction ) -history – as we know it now would have been different in ways which we can’t imagine .

  • “Irish nationality is generally extended”

    Changed in 2005. Some born outside the island now have a stronger claim than those born on it.

  • Greenflag

    ‘But I might be unpopular, as I live not in the grievous past or unsettled present but in the unified future. ‘

    I recall my old man now deceased saying .’You can’t live in the past but only in the present and while it’s important to prepare and save for the future, there is no point in considering or worrying about beyond the beyonds’

    He never did explain to me the actual time frame of ‘beyond the beyonds’ but I suspect it was further away than the future . Somewhere over the rainbow or closer to Pete Bakers ‘galactic ‘edge 😉

    As for banning discussion of events prior to 2000 I’d have to disagree . How about 1776 onwards for debate referencing the present . Posts on earlier historical and pre historical times can be interesting of themselves even if their political or economic relevance for today’s world are obtuse at best . They also provide a little light relief from the who burnt down the most orange halls/churches /arson attacks / dissident mayhem / deadlocked politics etc etc .

    I think Slugger overall has the balance right between past , distant past , present , future present , imperfect and perfect futures and beyond the galactic edge future 🙂
    Sometimes of course it can be skewed a bit too much one way or the other but that lasts for a period before new ‘news’ or a fresh ‘discovery’ moves us (most of us ) onwardsaand ever upwards to I know not what ;)?

  • Greenflag

    AN ,

    So only the English and Scots qualify for ‘scum ‘ status’ in the quote . The Welsh (there must have been some surely) get off scot free ? Dewi will be pleased . BTW do you know the origin of the ‘quotation’ ?

  • “How about 1776 onwards”

    Greenflag, those who want to look at the roots of the United Irishmen may well query whether the US or French experience had the greater impact whereas similar issues were to the fore in Derrykeighan in 1758 🙂

    You’d probably find a greater awareness of the 1641 atrocities amongst the folks of Portadown that those in north Antrim so it was hardly surprising that the recent Troubles took a greater toll in the Portadown district. North Antrim had a much less traumatic experience in the 1790s so that allowed it to some extent to distance itself from the events of 1641.

  • Alan Maskey

    Congal: I would not be surprised if many of Tone’s mates became stalwart Orangemen afterwards. They had an intellectual attachment to French Republicanism. Tone was a bit of an imperialist in his day. Fluid times.
    We only have to see where the French right etc get their votes from.
    The 1798 RCs just saw it as a chance of hitting back and were probably as Republican as Obama.
    Brendan Behan et al are interesting and Nicholas Breakspear, the Pope and King Billy and the rest get passing mention. I would imagine these things were covered in Republican pamphlets.
    We all live with illusions and myths. Perhaps a good legacy of the Troubles might be the partial dismantling of the old ones. Republicanism, the last refuge of the scoundrel, the fantacist and the property developer, is one such ideological myth that has to go.
    Republicans’ prophets have been an odd bunch. Shane McGowan’s favourite is James Clarence Mangan, who was a bit too fond of the opium pipe. The peace pipe was probably beyond him.

    I think these historical excursions are interesting. The degree of interest depends on what we are looking for and/or what we find.

  • PaddyReilly

    Birth is indeed an irrelevant fact in determining nationality: only if it is preceded by parental residence or followed by continued residence in the land of birth should it be considered as determinative.

    Otherwise, we will fall victim to the syndrome described by Salman Rushdie in Midnight’s Children, of heavily pregnant women making repeated visits to American warships on the coast of India in the hope that they will give birth on board to an American citizen.

    Other victims of this nonsense are the male children of British diplomats kidnapped by the French Army to perform military service there because their passport stated they were born in Paris.

    A considerable portion of the British population was born in the colonies when on imperial service, and a considerable portion of the Irish population was born in Britain during a trough in the Irish economy: I don’t think they should be placed below Nigerian chancers when passports are being handed out.

    The discussion of history by historians is to be welcomed: but I don’t think that arguments on the line of “Look what your side did to us in the 1640s” are going to get us anywhere. When applying chips to the shoulder, please make sure that they are recent, gentlemen.

  • ThomasMourne

    Paddy Reilly

    I stated earlier –
    The basic problem with any form of nationalism – Irish, Israeli, English, Chinese or whatever – is the idea that a certain ‘people’ have a rightful claim to a particular territory

    You replied –
    A problem for Israelis, but Irish nationality is generally extended to all persons born on the island of Ireland and their children and grandchildren, so no difficulties arise here.

    No difficulties?
    Apart from 1641, 1798, 1916, 1970s and many other dates along the way!

    A large proportion of people who regard themselves as Irish do not wish to share their little island with anyone but those who are like-minded, hence the support for the extreme actions of republican activists.

  • Greenflag

    TM ,

    ‘A large proportion of people who regard themselves as Irish do not wish to share their little island with anyone but those who are like-minded, hence the support for the extreme actions of republican activists.’

    One word – nonsense to the above . A small number perhaps and in these tough times that’s no different than anywhere else . But for the most part the Irish tolerate their newcomers
    and the support for extreme actions code violence by activists of any political persuasion is lower than it’s ever been .

    Would you say that all of these 368,095 people listed below by national origin are like minded? and if so and given that none of them are likely to support the actions of extreme republican activists why does the ROI population allow them to share their small island ?

    Foreign-Born Population In Irish Republic from the census .

    1 United Kingdom 112,548
    2 Poland 63,276
    3 Lithuania 24,628
    4 Nigeria 16,300
    5 Latvia 13,319
    6 USA 12,475
    7 China 11,161
    8 Germany 10,289
    9 Philippines 9,548
    10 France 9,046
    11 India 8,460
    12 Slovakia 8,111
    13 Romania 7,696
    14 Italy 6,190
    15 Spain 6,052
    16 South Africa 5,432
    17 Czech Republic 5,159
    18 Pakistan 4,998
    19 Russia 4,495
    20 Brazil 4,338
    21 Australia 4,033
    22 Netherlands 3,990
    23 Hungary 3,440
    24 Ukraine 3,122

    Total 368,095.

    The above is not the final total because nationalities which number less than 3,000 are not included e.g Estonians , Brazilians , Slovenians , Croatians etc .The total figure is more like 400,000 which has probably reduced some over the past year or two .

  • Greenflag

    paddy reilly ,

    ‘I don’t think that arguments on the line of “Look what your side did to us in the 1640s” are going to get us anywhere. ‘

    Of course but was anybody actually making that point ? I don’t think so

  • Greenflag

    Nevin ,

    I looked at the piece but find it difficult to comprehend . It seems as if some i.e Anthony Burnall and crew were refusing to pay tithes to a church of which they were not members and were threatening retaliation in advance ? Or was it something else ? Being one who never gives monies to any church I commend their action most highly 😉

    Sometimes the law even Penal Laws are an ass .

  • Greenflag

    I would guess that an adult say someone aged 45 or so in 1758 would have known people perhaps parents , grandparents or neighbours who would have remembered the events of 1641 or heard first hand reports from those who lived through it ?

  • Munsterview

    Pip,

    Some time ago when I drew attention to Alan Maskeys false flag posting and claimed that is was not harmless or incidental. You thought that I was over reacting and that we were dealing with just another common troll or cretin.

    Since a recent post of Maskeys in this thread is well over the usual standard from this particular poster, it is in fact something almost up to the standards of ‘Alias’, it would be such a shame to pass the opportunity by without having a closer look at it !

    It may be interesting to run the ‘dozen d’s’ ‘ slide rule’ over it and see how much of it conforms !

    This is all the more sinister as my main contention throughout these postings on this issue is that the particular accounts of the 1640 dispositions, aside from their rich source of collateral information, could also be an starting point for a true agreed poplar historical narrative for all on the Island of Ireland.

    Only a particularly manipulative individual, an ex-spook, or one working for spooks or other dis-unity agendas, against a possible meetings of minds, could be motivated to prevent that happening.

    ‘Alias’ too should take note…. this Maskey poser poster seems to be adopting quite a bit of his structures and content of late when dealing with serious issues !

    Now for the ‘dozen D’s’ and how this latest pesky offering conforms !

    1) Disdain……. ( use irony, sarcasm etc, to ridicule and undermine the source )

    Ho hum. Another hijack and the world is as it should be with the Kerryman who travels up to Kerry at the centre. Bring back Forest Gump.

    2) Discount……. ( Question the ‘ authority’ and credibility of the source )

    Isn’t it funny any gobshite can call himself a historian? Still, proper PSF Ard Comhairle material.

    3) Disassociate…… ( separate source from authority sphere to lessen status )

    If academics as opposed to fantacists (sic) had a one day seminar, of course, an academic paper or two could flow from it. Any “historian” would know that.

    4) Discredit……. ( acknowledge material but undermine source by denying conclusions )

    And of course Trinity and its collaborative universities will publish lots of papers out of this and PhD slaves will trawl through these documents for years to come. But they are not reveneue (sic) generators so few will really care.

    5) Dispute……. ( Take issue with source and introduce doubt and disruptive elements )

    And what purpose wil (sic) these papers serve? I have not personally interviewed many of the Catholics who were active at that time but I am sure they would have regarded it as payback time.

    6) Disregard…( Take a subject and diminish by apparent contextualization )

    It was a rough period and there was nothing really exceptional, when compared to Bohemia or Germany about the casualty figures.

    7) Disillusion……… ( lessen meetings of minds by appeal to negatives and prejudices)

    There will be no agreement. There is agreement on nothing else so why should there be agreement on this.

    8) Disasemble…… ( take the subject apart and bury the detail in the ‘Big Picture’ )

    Peter Baker’s original post claims/states these documents will change our understanding of European history no less. I doubt that. Ireland and the illegal Ulster land grab are veyr (sic) much peripheral to Europeran (sic) or even British history.Also, these retalitory (sic) actions took place at the tail end of the wars of the Reformation, surely one of the most complicated eras in European history with all hands turned at one time or another against all otehrs(sic) and only the Spanish saving civilisation(sic) against the machinations of the Pope, the French, perfidious Albion and the mercenary Swedes. Bavaria turned Turk on several occasions and Lower Bohemia famously gave us the word defenestration as the power seekers there stepped up to and off the plate.

    9 ) Dismiss………… ( by denigrating source and reinforce points 1 &2)

    The Kerryman, if such, is not the centre of the universe. And nor was this vision of Ulster in the seventeenth century.

    10) Dispatch….(by refocussing attention away and on to another emotive enemy negative )

    Another: Thanks you for giving McGuinness’ full name. Interesting. But maybe not as interesting as Omagh, which people drone on about and where the casualties were less than Dublin/Monaghan.

    Go to this link and click on the Jim Gibney story near the end of the page:
    http://www.info-nordirland.de/key_omagh_e.htm
    Omagh certainly served a purpose and it was not that of dissident republicanism. Of ocurse, bombs work that way as they have no target.

    ******************
    Now re read, as a coherent whole and ask if it is it as innocuous or harmless or unsophisticated as it first appears ?

    Incidently are we are also expected to believe that somebody with the capacity to turn out a piece like this do not have sufficent intellegence or computer skills to use a spellchecker ?

    More ‘clever clogs’ work to convey the impression of someone ‘a bit on the stupid side.’…… which of course conforms to the sterotypical views of catholics/nationalists/republicans, outside of their own culture in certain quarters !

    **********************

    Ho hum. Another hijack and the world is as it should be with the Kerryman who travels up to Kerry at the centre. Bring back Forest Gump. Isn’t it funny any gobshite can call himself a historian? Still, proper PSF Ard Comhairle material.
    If academics as opposed to fantacists (sic) had a one day seminar, of course, an academic paper or two could flow from it. Any “historian” would know that.
    And of course Trinity and its collaborative universities will publish lots of papers out of this and PhD slaves will trawl through these documents for years to come. But they are not reveneue (sic) generators so few will really care.
    And what purpose wil (sic) these papers serve? I have not personally interviewed many of the Catholics who were active at that time but I am sure they would have regarded it as payback time. It was a rough period and there was nothing really exceptional, when compared to Bohemia or Germany about the casualty figures.
    There will be no agreement. There is agreement on nothing else so why should there be agreement on this.
    Peter Baker’s original post claims/states these documents will change our understanding of European history no less. I doubt that. Ireland and the illegal Ulster land grab are veyr (sic) much peripheral to Europeran (sic) or even British history.Also, these retalitory(sic) actions took place at the tail end of the wars of the Reformation, surely one of the most complicated eras in European history with all hands turned at one time or another against all otehrs (sic) and only the Spanish saving civilisation (sic) against the machinations of the Pope, the French, perfidious Albion and the mercenary Swedes. Bavaria turned Turk on several occasions and Lower Bohemia famously gave us the word defenestration as the power seekers there stepped up to and off the plate.
    The Kerryman, if such, is not the centre of the universe. And nor was this vision of Ulster in the seventeenth century.

    Another: Thanks you for giving McGuinness’ full name. Interesting. But maybe not as interesting as Omagh, which people drone on about and where the casualties were less than Dublin/Monaghan.

    Go to this link and click on the Jim Gibney story near the end of the page:
    http://www.info-nordirland.de/key_omagh_e.htm
    Omagh certainly served a purpose and it was not that of dissident republicanism. Of ocurse, bombs work that way as they have no target.

  • Munsterview

    Alan Maskey 27 October 2010 at 1:59 p.m.

    “…….. Republicanism, the last refuge of the scoundrel, the fantacist (sic) and the property developer, is one such ideological myth that has to go…….”

    Anyone in the North of a Catholic / Nationalist / Republican culture would not make a statement such as the above.

    Because of my interest in Jacobite and related matters, I have frequently meet Catholic Royalists, there are still a few around, but even they or the Southern Titled remnants of the Old Order would not make a statement like that.

    Either a total ‘off the wall oddball’ and mother Ireland, North and South has produced more than a few of these, or once again as is far more likely the trousers have dropped around the ankles to show a bare ( and none too clean) orange arse !

  • Alan Maskey

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1027/collinsm.html

    It seems the traitor Collins was not shot by Dalton but by the IRA. The interesting thing about this report is that the IRA bhig wigs sat on a letter written two days after Collins got his desserts (and UCD later sat on it for ten more years)
    1. Are the O/P/R/C/IRA sititng on other documents of public interest?
    2. Does this letter change our perceptions one whit?
    3. You will note an academic got a book out of this (and more). So what? Is Collins not overdone? And 1641 is hardly front burner.

  • Greenflag, you’ve got it about right. I should imagine the culprits were probably Presbyterians who didn’t wish to contribute to the upkeep of the Church of Ireland. The reward notice is signed by local landlords, probably mostly Church of Ireland.

    Forty years later John Nevin was drilling United Irishmen near the same location. The place is still known as the Drilly Knowe. Perhaps John was related to the Neavens who were killed in 1641/2; he’s a relation of mine.

  • pippakin

    MV

    Interesting but you are not the first to make comparisons between Alias and Pesky.

    It is possible that everyone, except of course us, has an ulterior motive for commenting on Slugger but I’m not convinced it would work for any purpose.

    I comment quite a bit but only because I’m the kind of personality that shouts at the tv when I disagree with who ever is on! I don;t think my comments change the world! nor do I think anyone else has much influence although obviously some may and some may believe they influence, each to their own.

    I use a pseudonym because I have a life and I don’t like the idea that my name is all over the web. So I have blocked as far as possible all references to me on the web through my blog or twitter etc.

    People value their privacy and perhaps this so difficult character is really a quiet little mouse of a person who would be horrified if anyone knew his real name. Or perhaps that is his name and he is as bad as he appears and proud of it!

    Who knows, who really wants to know. All I know for sure is I don’t want to know Alan Maskey!

    Hope the above makes sense.

  • Munsterview

    Like Tatcher on her last day at the dispatch box I am rather enjoying this !

    The amusing thing about ‘blowing a cover’ is watching the victim ‘brass necking it’ and making mistakes under pressure, which leads to even more tracks.

    Did I inadvertently suggest a connection between Pesky and ‘Alias’ ?

    Somewhat careless of me I must admit, I merely intended to draw the latters notice to the fact that the former was copying his style and structures etc. Then again I will be first to admit, I do tend to being a bit naive about these things !

    Mind you there is one thing I could verify, Pesky did say that he had been in West Cork recently and since a graveyard near Crookstown holds Ireland’s only known Southern Auxie remains, I must phone a few contacts there and find out if there was any fresh flowers placed on the grave recently !

    “……I use a pseudonym because I have a life and I don’t like the idea that my name is all over the web…….”

    Same here, I make occasional contributions to four other sites in other areas of interest, also under ‘anim cleite’, and that is it. Holding out on my kids so far, no facebook etc and phones that are, well just phones !

  • pippakin

    MV

    You are like a cat with a mouse all to yourself!! Enjoy…

  • PaddyReilly

    Sharing your country with settlers from overseas is one thing: allowing them to take your lands (i.e. farms) and impose a government which excludes you from power is quite another. This is what 1641 ands 1798 were about.

    One is quite prepared to share the island with people who believe their ancestors came from elsewhere, because of course those who sensibly identify as native vastly outnumber them, and in a democratic system their wishes will prevail.

  • Munsterview

    Yeah……given how the Presbyterians were treated back then, about the same proportionate numbers that in another era joined the Black & Tans !

  • Munsterview

    “………That’s what the son of a cop in Dublin told me. …..”

    Behan had a dislike of most Garda and the feeling was mutual ! Incidently this dislike did not apparently extend to English or American Cops !

    Like Paddy Kavanagh, there are hundreds of stories in circulation about Behan the Drunk and like all alcoholics, Kavanagh included he could be a right pain in the hindquarters. However in Brendan’s case Dublin of the period had thousands of republicans, active and ex. Brendan was held in fond regard as a veteran who had done time, took his medicine and kept his mouth shut. Most of these would have looked out for him and in any event most of his drunk days were in later life when he was mainly out of the country.

    Neither was Brendan all just mouth, on one public occasion in Dublin after release, a volunteer was about to be disarmed by Special Branch, Behan snatched the gun, open fire and got the weapon away. He did another jail sentence for that !

    On every occasion that republicans did a pub collection if Brendan was present he took the box and made the collection in the pub for the movement. He was fondly regarded and looked after by both republican and literary figures. The late Cahal Goulding gave him the use of a cottage in Wicklow for his writing and usually had someone there also to keep an eye on him.

    One of the problems with most of these stories is that when Brendan was supposed to be drunk in Dublin, he was often in London, Paris, New York or elsewhere as records can show.

    But what the hell, why let a little thing like that spoil a good anti-republican story especially if it came from republican hating cop sources.

  • Archie Noble

    BTW do you know the origin of the ‘quotation’ ?

    Greenflag I’m late replying to you but you will find it in Borstal Boy and the originator is a very British establishment figure. I think it may have been MacCauley but I don’t have my copy to hand.

  • Greenflag

    MV,

    ‘Some time ago when I drew attention to Alan Maskeys false flag posting ‘

    If you dig back MV you’ll find that I preceded you by a couple of weeks on the ‘false flag ‘ flyer 😉

    BTW I would’nt bother with the toad too much . The arschloch is not worthy of your attentions would be my view 😉

  • Greenflag

    MV,

    As you seem to be enjoying yourself baiting the unmasked Maskey I’ll leave you to it . But give me a shout the next time you have the wretch untrousered and in the bare arse position. .

    I have a red hot poker in the grate which I could lend you for appropriate use 🙂

  • Greenflag

    AN ,

    Thanks for that . I have a vague memory of the expression being used by a demented teacher in a history class many moons ago . We never learnt much history in primary school back then except in the last year or two before secondary or tech beckoned .

    I have reason to remember that particular teacher as he somehow managed to get himself punched in the jaw by an irate parent who objected to his remark that anybody who went to Dalymount Park to watch Shamrock Rovers play the Gypsies(Bohemians ) instead of going to Croker to watch Roscommon play Longford was a ‘traitor’ to Ireland .

    Later he got into a schoolyard fight of the bare knuckle kind with another teacher over a corporeal punishment matter and eventually he left the school under a cloud of scandal .

    I guess one could have called him ‘scum’ but I prefer to remember the poor man as somewhat disjointed and perhaps just a little bit too crazy to be a teacher 🙂

    As I said Brendan Behan could be an awful eejit at times and sometimes when it suited him 🙂

  • Greenflag

    Nevin ,

    ‘he’s a relation of mine.’

    Fascinating letter .

    The references to twitching and jerking and Real Republican government somehow give me a sense of deja vu 🙂

    I trust you’ll have no need to squeeze into a barrel to eh escape when the Real Republican Government (best in the world ) comes to Ballymoney 🙂 You are aware that they don’t make ‘barrels ‘ like they used to .

    Hard to imagine these days any Church demanding that the members of another church or none should pay up to keep them in clover . Not that some would if they could but get away with it ;)?

  • Alan Maskey

    Maybe he was trying to broaden your horizons by getting you to know places like Longford and Roscommon existed. Which Shamrock Rovers wouldn’t if it wasn’t for the GAA tax payer.
    Behan and Sheridan (and Goulding) were raised in the shadow of Croker so her was probably trying to instill a cultural dimension into the roughnecks at your school as well. He seems like a saint.
    You seemed to have gone to an interesting school though and good to see the teachers also showed ye all some of the joys of boxing. Amazing how they did so muich with so little.
    Maccauley or his like is probably the original source. But such quotes obviously worked their way into the material Tom Clarke sold in his tobacco (bold boy) shop.
    I guess we will have to wait until all this 1641 stuff works ints way into the maintstream.

  • Munsterview

    Mick some posts back invited nominations for various slugger awards.

    Charity begins at home and in view of my posting of 27 October 2010 at 8:46 p.m. the fact that this exposed poser poster is still posting and shamelessly carrying on regardless, should be marked some small way.

    I suggest that there should be new award established to recognize such blatant shamelessness to be known as the Brass Neck Award and I hereby nominate Pesky for The Brass Neck Of The Month Award.

    Greenflag……… keep that poker handy and other sporting catholic/ nationalist / republican posters and readers are hereby also invited to nominate your choice offensive posting of his, as he is also in the running with with a strong recommendation that his efforts on aggregate be considered for Brass Neck Of The Year Award !

    When and if there is an award for The Greatest Insult To Readers Intelligence Award, I will also suggest this particular poser poster for the title, but in deference to any claims of bias I will allow someone else make that nomination !

    Incidently in the foregoing poser post only four minor spelling mistakes and one major that I can see : the spellchecker has been used in that restrained little piece. Note the casual name drop of Sheridan and MacCauley……. a little learning implied there….. nice light touch that, credit where credit is due.

    Three ems also from West of the Bann sources to suggest that I could be on the wrong tack here, all pointed to the same thing, that it could be the work of an indoctrinated ex Stick that learned his craft at the feet of the ‘Harassed’ great one.

    Apparently there are a few of that disgruntled ilk up in that neck of the woods who were of the chosen few being groomed for greater things over thirty five years ago, before the big bad Provos yanked the red carpet from under their polished shoes and left a few forlorn chiefs without any Indians.

    Could it be that the pleasant smiling Marty, the object of so much bile from this source is occupying a position that the poser poster see as rightly theirs. By remarkable coincidence the same bile can be found in Dillion and some of the other Old Nationalist party who had to take a back seat in the New Ireland against the new order !

  • JJ Malloy

    MV

    I agree with you on Maskey.

  • JJ Malloy

    He was no traitor.

  • Coll Ciotach

    who is the best sword arm In Ireland?

  • Alan Maskey

    Archie Noble: Go here and scroll down
    http://www.christian-restoration.com/fmasonry/Orange/orange.htm

    This invasion was a mixture from nobility who sought estates to men who were seeking to escape justice. The Revd. Andrew Stewart of Donaghadee claimed that,,

    ‘from Scotland came many, and from England not a few, yet all of them generally the scum of both nations, who for debt or breaking and fleeing from justice, or seeking shelter, came thither’

    Indeed one family, the Johnstons, faced seventy seven charges of slaughter in 1609.
    :::::::::::::::::::::::::
    Obviously Behan, who was steeped in Republican lore, learned all if this form his 1916 gun toting da, who would have picked it up somewhere else.
    The commwents of the Iriwsh resistance fighters are interesting. Though the Godfathers left from Lough Swilly some years earlier, the men of violencve and their networks remained.
    Phelim MacGillapatrick seems to have been a good sort.

  • Alan Maskey

    http://www.libraryireland.com/articles/HullPlantation2-1/index.php

    This quotation from Hull also refers to the same source so, rightly or wrongly, it must have been common knowledge.

  • Greenflag, Stewart was one of those Presbyterians who took over an Episcopalian Church in the 1640s and 1650s – the Prescopalian period – and got booted out at the time of the Restoration.

  • “This is what 1641 ands 1798 were about.”

    Not just as simple as that, PR. Up in Loughguile in 1803 the parish priest pointed the finger at those Presbyterians who had been republican troublemakers in the 1790s. Catholics as loyalists would seem a bit strange in Loughguile now.

  • Alan Maskey

    Lads like Barry are no traitors.
    Ever listen to the song: Take it down from the mast Irish traitors?
    One thing I admire about HMF is they know how to march. Collins’ traitors were hopeless at that as they rushed to get their beer bellies into their green tunics.
    The Yanks, imho, make the mistake of having all arms of their defence services share guards of honour. The uniforms clash.

  • Here’s a link to a scan of that Loughguile letter from O Laverty’s “Down and Connor”.

  • another

    AM

    History is never linear. Self same Johnston’s allegedly also contained in their family line the King of the Fews;

    http://url.ie/84z3

    But at a later date, one of their descendents, who is seen here purchasing plantation land, turned Catholic;

    http://url.ie/84z5

    As noted at the foot of the document, this fellow Arthur Johnston served his apprenticeship with Mr. Peter M’Evoy Gartlan, a famous Solicitor in the early Repeal Movement, and who defended O’Connell in the early forties [1840s] on the charge of high treason, and got him acquitted.

    It is only in the doxa of Provo land that people are black and white.

  • Munsterview

    “…..It is only in the doxa of Provo land that people are black and white…..”

    Since coming on this site I have been continually highlighting the part played by the Protestants in the Celtic Revival and other significant aspects of Irish History. My contribution to this thread speaks for itself.

    Rather than the provos regarding people as being ‘black and white,’ look to those who walk the black and white and what they are doing with history and facts.