John Hume voted “Ireland’s greatest”

John Hume wins the RTE competition, followed by Michael Collins, Mary Robinson, James Connolly and Bono ( at least according to the Irish Times report. Ryan Tubridy announced the losers ” in no particular order”). Pity no voting figures were given for the phone-in poll. But there we are. No Taoiseach made it to the final five, not even Dev, while Collins did – although I suppose we can count him briefly as the formal head of the provisional government.

Interesting if  the mainly southern audience lifted their heads from their current troubles to the perspective of history and  awarded the prize to a northerner. Hume’s achievment must at the moment seem far from what preoccupies them at the moment.

I wonder about the absence of figures. Might it have  been  low poll but with a big lobby from the north, with those keenest winning?

Explain please, RTE.

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  • pippakin

    tacapall

    But lives have been saved! and since most of the deaths were Irish I think its fairly safe to say most of the lives saved are Irish.

    I know there is amongst some a sense of betrayal and possibly a growing sense of impatience amongst the grass roots but in terms of our history twelve odd years is no more than the blink of an eye.

    I hope Martin McGuiness becomes the next first minister that might help some to realise that things are moving in the right direction.

    The worst thing about politicians these days is they are all on the make. Its almost part of the job description.

  • White Horse

    And Stalin? What’s the story, Comrade?

  • Comrade Stalin

    I thought the story was obvious. I’m General Secretary of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union.

  • Comrade Stalin

    There’s very little that Sinn Fein are capable of doing these days other than whinge. At least the Fianna Fellini crime syndicate are trying to clean the place up. I don’t agree with their precise methods but there you go.

    If the day comes when a referendum shows the desire for the people north and south to establish a reunified state I imagine that there will be a long period of negotiation and discussion. The constitution needs to be fully secularized and have additional measures added to ensure that the rights of everyone to their traditions and religious beliefs are protected and enshrined as a fundamental principle.

  • Munsterview

    “…….The constitution needs to be fully secularized and have additional measures added to ensure that the rights of everyone to their traditions and religious beliefs are protected and enshrined as a fundamental principle…….”

    Again fully agreed. You are getting me worried now !

  • Cushy Glenn

    yeah- like it means anyhting when the Brandywell tannoy announces to 5000 supportrs to text for the ould fraud and club president

    face it folks- if the Derry wans had one of their own in the “Wolrd’s biggest Turd” competition they’d be voting like mad- just as long as he was from the west bank of course…

  • Cushy Glenn

    -yeah, if Connolly gets in, why not put in those other great “Irishmen”

    John F Kennedy
    Mohammed Ali
    Tony Cantscorino

    some mug would have voted at a pound a pop

  • Big Maggie

    Comrade,

    People over here spell it “apologise”.

    Those who know better spell it “apologize”. It’s the preferred spelling. Check your dictionary.

  • Mainland Ulsterman

    Laughable that Hume won this but then it doesn’t sound like a very serious poll. But it is interesting that a man who consistently sought to negotiate the future of Northern Ireland over the heads of – and without reference to – the majority of the population is hailed as a great man of the people. Man of his own people maybe. But nationalists need to recognise how little Hume did to build bridges with unionists. We found him one of the less constructive voices on the nationalist side.

    This was the man who moved his party away from the promising cross-community signals of the early SDLP towards the party merely representing narrow Irish nationalist self-interest (at the expense of considering its role within the wider community, at the height of the terrorists’ assault on all of us).

    This was also one of the architects of the ludicrous Anglo-Irish Agreement of 1985, which treated Northern Irish people like cattle and denied their democratic rights. And the man who opposed having greater parliamentary scrutiny of the NIO on the basis that a select committee in Westminster would somehow “strengthen the union”.

    And though a man of peace himself, he was too ready to blame other peaceful players for Republican violence – most shockingly after the IRA’s Docklands bomb in 1996 (which incidentally almost killed my then girlfriend), when he blamed Major for not giving Republicans what they wanted in early negotiations. This was both foolish, morally warped and undermining of cross-community trust.

  • Alan Maskey

    Ok Mainland Ulsterman. name your five best best Catholic politicians from the Six Counties. No naming members of Alliance.

  • White Horse

    Mainland Ulsterman/ Comrade Stalin

    I can just still remember the long list of similar grievances coming from Irish republicans against John Hume.

    So Comrade, you say that he didn’t achieve anything. He almost singlehandedly ended ideological nationhood, green and orange, by putting people first.

    Comrade,
    Still think its anti-social influences that inspire your name.

  • Robbie

    ‘He almost singlehandedly ended ideological nationhood, green and orange, by putting people first.’

    Pure, confounded mindrot-Humespeak that does no favour to anyone least of all the man himself.

    ‘name your five best best Catholic politicians from the Six Counties. No naming members of Alliance.’

    We could start with Joe Devlin, Cahir Healy, moving onto Gerry Fitt and Paddy Devlin to get the ball rolling. As Mainland Ulsterman says: ‘This was the man who moved his party away from the promising cross-community signals of the early SDLP towards the party merely representing narrow Irish nationalist self-interest’. If the majority of people in this part of the island – Hume is a Northerner after all – are nonplussed at best and highly distrustful of Hume at worst there is something not altogether saintly about his reputation. Try and measure up, eh?

  • Alan Maskey

    Robbie: An enlightened post and it is good to see the much maligned Wee Joe Devlin and Cahir Healy get a mention.
    I must say I am a little shocked at this antipathy towards Mr Hume. One lives, loves and learns.

  • Alias

    “So Comrade, you say that he didn’t achieve anything. He almost singlehandedly ended ideological nationhood, green and orange, by putting people first.”

    He didn’t dismantle the sovereign British nation or its sovereign state, so he did none of the things that you bizarrely think he did.

    All he did was confirm the claim made by the British state in regard to the Irish nation in its territory, i.e. that they had no right to be a sovereign nation as this right belonged exclusively to the British nation in their sovereign territory.

    Therefore he is a British nationalist and a traitor to his own nation.

  • Robbie

    I agree he has his achievements Alan, and has always been an articulate and highly intelligent spokesman, but am at a loss as to how he can be contrued as the greatest Irishman of this century. For me, there were considerably greater individuals (those I have mentioned, Lemass? O’Casey? Any writer come to think of it?) who were not on the list. Perhaps it is, as someone has inferred elsewhere, the nature of these X-Factor type polls.

  • White Horse

    Alias

    Hume destroyed what you believe in. There is no basis for ideological Irish nationhood, a hollow ideology with Ireland as its god and Old Testament morality as its methods.

    There is only a New Ireland, an Ireland that puts its people first with values that reflect a meaningful understanding of what it was that put this people under their centuries of oppression.

    Part of what it was was the hollow interpretations of law that seek to prove by every conceivable method, only insofar as and in respect of, that which makes the rich right.

    The word “equality” as in partnership goverment and North South bodies also ended ideological Britishness. Its just that you cannot see beyond what you lost.

    What did you lose? A campaign of violence that honoured the sociopath and allowed you to tell the world of the patriots that were going to make Ireland a real nation, only it was going to take a long while.

    Hume never betrayed the Irish people. Hume honoured Christ and Christianity.

  • Comrade Stalin

    MU,

    We found him one of the less constructive voices on the nationalist side.

    The British looked at the unionists, who refused to even talk or consider any kind of proposals, and then looked at Hume, who was willing to talk about put forward ideas. They went with the guy who put forward the ideas. While clearly Hume is not the non-sectarian peacemaker that certain people want him to be, it is natural for a politician to for attempt to take advantage of the void the unionists willingly left.

    It is a real shame that unionism didn’t grasp the value of negotiating or talking throughout the entire period.

    I agree with you on the rest, though. Hume decided that the political process could not work without SF. By exploiting unionist intransigence, he was able to persuade the British of this as well.

  • Comrade Stalin

    So Comrade, you say that he didn’t achieve anything. He almost singlehandedly ended ideological nationhood, green and orange, by putting people first.

    Wishy-washy rubbish. In 1992 Hume said, around about when he led the SDLP out of the Brooke talks :

    [Northern Ireland] is not a natural entity and therefore you cannot have a normal democracy

    How is that ending ideological nationhood ? That quote resembles something straight from the mouth of a Provo.

    Like I said – please point to a concrete example of something that Hume actually did to bring people together.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Hume destroyed what you believe in. There is no basis for ideological Irish nationhood, a hollow ideology with Ireland as its god and Old Testament morality as its methods.

    Have you got any actual quotations from Hume where he made comments or statements to the above effect ?

    The word “equality” as in partnership goverment and North South bodies also ended ideological Britishness. Its just that you cannot see beyond what you lost.

    What sort of drug-addled nonsense is this ? Ideological Britishness is “ended” ? What are you saying here – unionism doesn’t exist anymore ?

  • Comrade Stalin

    Let’s keep this simple.

    Apart from laying the path which resulted in Sinn Fein entering politics, could Hume supporters please describe a single accomplishment in John Hume’s political life ?

  • Alan Maskey

    I guess all these things are relative. Irish historianas said this X factor contest was a crock of shit. In the tribal politics of the six counties, in my humble opinion, the SDLP and Hume come out on top. I accept the amoral PSF regard him as another Wee Joe Devlin and the Unionists regard him as a Mick.

    CS asks what else has he done but stop the PIRA savages. What else have any of the 6 co’s politicians done? And let us exclude their more colourful episodes. They are all a B team.
    The Hume vote was just another endorsement of peace, more or less at any price.

  • White Horse

    Comrade

    Your quote from Hume proves nothing. He was only stating the obvious. GFA proved that he was right.

    On bringing people together he uttered the majestic words, “mutual respect”, the basis of our little democracy. His was a language of togetherness as parity of esteem is the only way human beings can really honour each other.

    Ideological Irish (and British) nationhood are my words. His were less confrontational.

    Yes, unionism has been emasculated. Do you remember where they were starting from?

  • Michael

    The reason RTE will not reveal the voter numbers is that we would ask where the money is going.This is a revenue generator hence the exclusion of the usual candidates for greatest Irish eg Joyce, Yeats, Dev, Lemass, Gaybo…

  • Munsterview

    Big Maggie,

    Thanks but since I suffer from dyslexia, it is spelled for me the way whatever way the spell check do it. To further complicate things the ‘ Safari ‘ settings have Irish and American settings and occasionally it is on the American settings for a number of threads.

    However as has been pointed out to posters by the dear Old Admiral Windbag, I do not use British English anyway so its immaterial.

  • White Horse

    Comrade

    The reason unionism didn’t talk was because they believed in ideological nationhood. Theirs was an empire identity and its greatness was dependent on suppressing opposition, not talking to it.

    Unionists may exist but the ideology they used to worship as a god is bankrupt.

    Paisley said “not an inch” and Hume asked for 50% and got it, rendering Paisley a buck idiot along with McGuinness.

  • Comrade Stalin

    On bringing people together he uttered the majestic words, “mutual respect”, the basis of our little democracy.

    Was the Anglo-Irish Agreement mutual respect then ?

    His was a language of togetherness as parity of esteem is the only way human beings can really honour each other.

    “togetherness as parity of esteem?” what the hell does that mean ? Am I talking to a human being or a computer running some sort of Turing test programmed with Humespeak ?

    His [words]were less confrontational.

    I remember mostly “a united Ireland now, or nothing”. That’s non-confrontational ? That’s mutual respect ?

    Yes, unionism has been emasculated.

    That’s not what you said. The word you used was “ended”.

    And how can you on one hand talk about unionism being emasculated, and on the other hand talk about respect and parity of esteem ? Don’t you realize that you’re vomiting up soundbites and building them into sentences that contradict each other ?

    Do you remember where they were starting from?

    Depends how far back you go. What I prefer to point out in the context of this “GFA is John Hume’s legacy” nonsense is where John Hume started from – which fundamentally is Catholic theocracy and joint authority, both failed notions that have been consigned, rightly, to the dustbin of history.

  • Comrade Stalin

    The reason unionism didn’t talk was because they believed in ideological nationhood. Theirs was an empire identity and its greatness was dependent on suppressing opposition, not talking to it.

    Yup. It’s a shame things couldn’t have been different.

    Paisley said “not an inch” and Hume asked for 50% and got it, rendering Paisley a buck idiot along with McGuinness.

    Not really. Hume asked for Joint authority, and ended up with a few rather toothless cross-border bodies (remember them ?).

  • Comrade Stalin

    He didn’t “stop the PIRA savages”. The PIRA savages stopped of their own accord. Hume gave them a much-needed leg up and tied the SDLP’s fate to Sinn Fein’s.

    I’d agree our politicans are a B team. If any more of them are ever nominated to be the greatest person in Irish history I’ll be here pointing out the ridiculousness of it.

  • Munsterview

    Comrade S “……Alliance is not a unionist party and Alliance supporters, including myself, vigorously contest the very notion of it…….”

    You are of course perfectly entitled to your perceptions of what the party of your choice is, as all political parties collective are of their party ethos !

    However there is the matter of how these parties are perceived outside of their own membership and supporters. In all republican circles that I know of and with any SDLP I ever had an in depth conversation with on the subject, Alliance was regarded as unionist, albeit be it with a small ‘u’ but when push came to shove, unionists never the less.

    In fact it was an SDLP man who gave me the most memorable quote I heard regarding Alliance; he said that …… ” the Alliance is for people who are embarrassed by the other two unionist parties, but cannot kick the habit ! ”

    That is in main the perception of the Alliance party in the Nationalist side and in the South however unfair the party members or their supporters may consider that to be.

  • White Horse

    Comrade

    There was a lot of posturing going on during the Troubles in a time when negotiations were often thought to imminent.

    I am satisfied that Hume got what he set out to achieve. Nobody killed in his name. He kept faith with what was right, what was good and what was just without honouring any sacred cows of ideological nationhood.

    He was guided by the heart in his worldview, not as you seem to be, by antisocial sentiment.

  • White Horse

    Comrade

    When the full truth of the IRA cessation comes to light, it will be seen that the very presence of Hume on the field of play ensured that the last hurrah of those who honoured sociopathy and believed in its power, did not seek to pursue their ancient ideological “rights” through provoking the final Rwandan solution.

  • Munsterview

    Comrade S / White horse !

    All I can do is keep on repeating the three stages of the Republican Struggle Bomb and bullet, bullet and ballot box and ballot box only !

    The IRA were never going to defeat the British Army once stage two had been reached, but neither could the British Army defeat the IRA, the General Officer Commanding the British Army of the day even went public ( with the MOD authorization ) to say that they could not.

    £ 45,000 to train a UK Front Line Nato Troop soldier, 45 cents for an armalight bullet….. some one finally did the sums on that one !

    The political parties in the South and the UK ‘Mainland’ parties were prepared to keep it all ‘Up There and Over There’ and to hell with how long it could last. John Hume had been invested with so much public credibility by Southern politics and media, by UK politics and media and likewise by the EU and the US that when he laid it all on the line these sources could not deny Sinn Fein credentials without fatally damaging Hume.

    They did however have a bloody good try and sailed close to the wind on that one!

    Hume read the situation right : in his dealings with Sinn Fein he could see the caliber of the people that he was dealing with and he knew what his own lieutenants were really like. He put peace before party and for that he will never be forgiven in some quarters.

    In the early days of both party talks I met another back-room guy of the SDLP in Dublin. This was an old stager who knew the ropes. His greeting to me……. ” We are F……….”

    He went on to say that the SDLP had an A team and a poor B team, Sinn Fein had A,B,C,& D teams etc……and all were as good as the other. He knew that Sinn Fein would, in the absence of the Military Millstone around their necks would power ahead and ellipse the SDLP.

    Hume was prepared to accept this as a price for peace, many of his party and most of the Southern Establishment were not and never forgave him for doing so. Neither have most unionists.

    This award for John Hume is a victory for people over party politics and so the begrudgery continues!

  • Mainland Ulsterman

    CS,
    I have never bought that “unionists were unconstructive” thing. We had lots of ideas, it was just that they weren’t Irish nationalist ones and Hume and others vetoed them. There was a tendency among the two governments and the media at times to equate being constructive with being Irish nationalist, as if the only future to be discussed were a green one.

    Unionists were the constructive ones in the early 80s when Prior had a go at an assembly; the SDLP pulled out. Then, despite this, the AIA was brought it which sidelined us between 1985 and about 1991. We had plenty of ideas, but because they all involved the obvious of scrapping the AIA for starters, they were dismissed. When the government finally came to its senses and accepted the AIA was no basis for cross-community agreement, unionists were widely hailed as imaginative and constructive in the Brooke talks. Indeed, it was Hume who refused to back his own negotiators, who had struck a working deal on power sharing, because of his insistence on the Irish dimension; which was also what scuppered Sunningdale.

    And though only in a very minor and unofficial capacity, I was myself involved in, I hope, constructive and helpful meetings with officials at the Irish embassy in London in the mid 90s, to aid mutual understanding before the main talks process started. And I have to say I found our Irish interlocutors gave a much better and more conciliatory impression of nationalist Ireland than you ever heard from Hume.

    Eventually, unionists were the ones to show flexibility by agreeing to an Irish dimension during the talks leading up to the GFA, even though it was deeply unpopular with unionist voters, in the interests of a cross-community deal.

  • Comrade Stalin

    When the full truth of the IRA cessation comes to light,

    What ? There are secrets that are known only to you and John Hume ?

    it will be seen that the very presence of Hume on the field of play ensured that the last hurrah of those who honoured sociopathy and believed in its power, did not seek to pursue their ancient ideological “rights” through provoking the final Rwandan solution.

    Why ? What are we going to find out ?

    Munster:

    He put peace before party and for that he will never be forgiven in some quarters.

    Largely for damaging the SDLP, but also because the process was unnecessary. The IRA campaign couldn’t have been sustained and the violence would have ended without Hume’s involvement for the reason you just outlined – the best that the IRA campaign could ever accomplish in political terms was stalemate, at heavy penalty to the community it claimed to be fighting for.

  • Comrade Stalin

    I am satisfied that Hume got what he set out to achieve.

    No he didn’t. Devolution was never part of SDLP policy.

    Nobody killed in his name.

    It’s a real shame he chose to be equivocal about those who did kill.

    He kept faith with what was right, what was good and what was just without honouring any sacred cows of ideological nationhood.

    More pointless Humespeak babble which means absolutely nothing at all. John Hume did nothing except open doors for Sinn Fein.

  • White Horse

    Munsterview

    You gest, surely. Or you’re tying to provoke SDLP supporters.

    “the caliber of Sinn Fein negotiators” – Those same people aren’t looking so smart now in taking on the DUP.

    In any case they conceded their entire basis, ideological Nationhood, to Hume’s analysis.

    Hume had a party full of talent. Sinn Fein is a one man band that depended heavily on the forcefullness of a man who grew up in an abusive home and made others pay for it.

    Yes Sinn Fein were destined to eclipse the SDLP but that could have been stopped if the will was there, and wasn’t stopped because it meant that we had Sinn Fein doing our work for us in selling an agreement that ended their ideology.

    Sinn Fein is a party that is fronted by the working class as a matter of choice, not because it could not get middleclass approval, but because it is not not a proper party as such, but a propaganda front and using the poor to fight for its hollow cause has always been its way.

  • White Horse

    Comrade

    The truth is the truth. Everybody knows it but nobody believes it. Yet everybody believes it but nobody knows it.

    Yes, the great Jesuitical thinker, John Hume, knew the truth. The truth shall set you free.

  • White Horse

    Comrade

    This sounds like more ideological Anti-Humeness. You’re losing perspective.

  • Glencoppagagh

    Has anybody mentioned yet what a pompous, self-righteous bore he was? And the name dropping.
    I once had the misfortune to stumble on an interview with him on French TV. In comprehensible but clunky French he trotted out all his tedious old aphorisms: “un oeil pour un oeil laisse tout le monde aveugle” etc etc zzzzzz.
    His silence in retirement is much to be appreciated.

  • Mainland Ulsterman

    Why no members of Alliance??
    OK, if they are barred I would have Paddy Devlin, Gerry Fitt, I met Durkan once and quite liked him, not sure if Eamonn McCann counts whom I would respect for his honesty if not his political views, I thought Joe Hendron was decent enough. I disagree with nationalist analysis fundamentally, so it’s hard to be very enthusiastic about its proponents, but there are plenty in the SDLP / constitutional nationalist camp with whom I would have very little beef. But Hume took nationalism off in a direction which I think has not helped cross-community understanding.

    But I suppose he could have been worse. As Alvin Jackson said of the Unionist leadership of the 20s (to paraphrase) it would have taken a major feat of leadership to do the right thing and they just didn’t have the right person at the right time. I feel the same way about nationalist politics during the Troubles. It is maybe harsh on Hume to condemn him for just being another parochial politician who, for all the bluster, failed to challenge his own cultural prejudices. It’s just that he convinced so many people he was more than that.

  • White Horse

    Where’d you go, Munsterview?

  • Munsterview

    “…….. But it is interesting that a man who consistently sought to negotiate the future of Northern Ireland over the heads of – and without reference to – the majority of the population is hailed as a great man of the people…….”

    Remind me again……. just how were the Four part Nationalist Counties and the Two Majority Nationalist Counties that they hijacked / appended/ appropriated etc into their Orange Statlet done re consultation with the Irish People ?

    I can take it then I gather that political self awareness is not one of your strong points ? Pity that !

  • Munsterview

    Oh still here……. like some others, I have not gone away you know !

    No, I was not trying to provoke the SDLP or their supporters, I am but reporting a ‘back-room boys’ conversation.

    It must also be remembered that when such a conversation took place, there was still a united and collective leadership in the Republican Movement, North and South.

    “…….. Sinn Fein is a one man band that depended heavily on the forcefulness of a man who grew up in an abusive home and made others pay for it……..”

    Now who is winding up ? While the Republican has suffered from significant defections, both individuals like Christy Burke in Dublin, and in mass like in West Tyrone, the majority of that ‘collective leadership ‘ are still in place and since those remaining share a consensus, they are, if anything are more focused and determined than back then with a hell of a lot more experience and International influnce.

    In the Hume / Adams negotiation, the fact of breaking the Unionist monolith was back then only an aspiration, now it is an accomplished reality.

    The fact that Sinn Fein could be in Government was also back then only an aspiration, that too is now an accomplished reality,

    The fact that Sinn Fein could be the majority party was an also back then only an aspiration, that too is now an accomplished reality.

    The fact that Sinn Fein could attain the First Minister position was back then an aspiration, that too is just an election or at most two from becoming a reality.

    “…..In any case they conceded their entire basis, ideological Nationhood, to Hume’s analysis…….”

    Not quite, when in 1972 , after Bloody Sunday, John said that nothing other than a United Ireland would suffice, it was obvious that some of the SDLP were on the on the right wavelength, just the means and time scale differed.

    Now that the Political Establishments on these Islands have been forced to accommodate Sinn Fein the means are no longer in dispute and I do not hear too many SDLP voices advocating the maintenance of the Northern State indefinitely.

    “……. Sinn Fein is a one man band that depended heavily on the forcefulness of a man who grew up in an abusive home and made others pay for it…….”

    The lessons of Dev have been well and truly learned and there are no ‘ what I say go or you go’, leaders in Sinn Fein.

    Besides as Gerry himself has frequently said, he was not in the IRA and in a political organization where so many came to prominence through their involvement in Armed Militant Activity, the lack of such a background will always seriously curtail Gerry’s influence !

    “….Sinn Fein is a party that is fronted by the working class as a matter of choice, not because it could not get middleclass approval, but because it is not not a proper party as such, but a propaganda front and using the poor to fight for its hollow cause has always been its way…….”

    Cannnot be arsed with answering that one ! However please, oh please continue thinking along these lines and be sure to share your beliefs in other unionist circles.

    I cannot speak for Sinn Fein but I am sure that is thinking from unionists that more than a few of the party suits could ever hope for !

  • Mainland Ulsterman

    MV
    … and syntax / intelligibility is obviously not one of your strong points:
    ” … just how were the Four (sic) part Nationalist (sic) Counties (sic) and the Two (sic) Majority Nationalist (sic) Counties (sic) that they hijacked / appended/ appropriated etc into their Orange Statlet (sic) done (sic) re consultation with the Irish People (sic)?”

    Well, I’m not sure how they were “done re consultation”. But the main point that both Irish and British leaders recognised in 1921 was that there was not a single “Irish people” but, in national terms, two peoples with different national allegiances.

    There had been an “Irish people” of sorts before that, but it did not survive long after the advent of (1) mass democracy and national self-awareness, where the idea of a nation did become more about people and less about land; and (2) the idea of Ireland as an autonomous political entity, upon which the Irish people divided and have remained so. The only chance of the Irish people remaining a single entity in any meaningful political sense would have been if Home Rule had been dropped. The more Catholic Ireland pushed away from Britain, the more they divided the island. Don’t blame us for that – you guys seceded!

    The agreement on the border was signed by the representatives of both peoples. While this could be said to be done was done over the heads of the people, it was done with some kind of democratic mandate at least. But the key point of course is that, despite its imperfections, the border did represent a solution that left fewer people on the wrong side (under rule by people of another nationality to them) than the alternative 32 county Irish state with sea border only with the UK. NI border solution left approx 600,000 on wrong side of border; the 32 county Ireland solution was not as good, it would have left 900,000 or so in that situation. So really, the argument for a 32 county Ireland was a poor one. Nationalists would have been better served arguing for changes to the border – those arguments do have merit. But the representatives of the time lacked the vision and pragmatism to be able to see that and they kept banging on about a 32 county Ireland until 1998.

    But happily, the argument was then settled once and for all, with the acceptance by all sides that there are two national allegiances on the island and that a single Irish nation does not and should not under present circumstances exist (the consent principle).

  • White Horse

    MUnsterview

    Yes, unionist monolithic ideology has been defeated by setting it against republican ideology, also defeated, and allowing the SDLP way to squeeze in between.

    Yes, Sinn Fein, selling non-violent social democracy has grown.

    No John Hume never said that. He said that “some people down there (in the Bogside) are saying that it is a united Ireland or nothing.”

    “the means are no longer in dispute” – violence has been rejected. What’s your hidden agenda?

    “the lack of such a background will seriously curtail Adams influence” – Spare me the propaganda. Sinn Fein is still a one man band. They have no natural successor to Adams and yet events et al are hollowing him out by the day. By the time he goes the whole party will go with him.

    It might be preferable for Sinn Fein to remain strong in support of the Agreement.

    “unionist” – Again Sinn Fein is the nation and those who oppose them are the opponents of the nation. So what are you going to do about the sociopathy that lives in Sinn Fein and the DUP? Is the nation that you seek the Sociopathic Republic of Ireland? That’s all that Sinn Fein will stand for when Gerry Adams is finished.

  • Munsterview

    “…….… and syntax / intelligibility is obviously not one of your strong points:
    ” … just how were the Four (sic) part Nationalist (sic) Counties (sic) and the Two (sic) Majority Nationalist (sic) Counties (sic) that they hijacked / appended/ appropriated etc into their Orange Statlet (sic) done (sic) re consultation with the Irish People (sic)?”

    Well, I’m not sure how they were “done re consultation”. But the main point that both Irish and British leaders recognised in 1921 was that there was not a single “Irish people” but, in national terms, two peoples with different national allegiances……”

    1) In the fiirst decade of the 20th, century the OO and Unionists especially after the founding of the UVF caused such divisions and diistruption to the body politic in these Islands that Germany believed the British Establishment was so riven that Great Britian was on the verge of regional and political discentegration.

    2) The British Army based in Ireland was always a garrisson army, and the Officer Class always mirrored the Irish and British establishments at a time when a few years of army service was the natural starting point for a later carreer in politics or business.

    3) When the British Army de facto munitied on the ‘Ulster’ issue, it send out a strong signal around Europe and to Germany in particular that the Government had not the confidence of the Army and therefore may not be in a position to use it.

    4) Given this German perception of Great Britian regional unilateralism and threatned discentration and the prospect of an Officer Class munity, is it any surprise that Germany thought that it’s hour had come and that this was the time to strike ?

    5) In fact there is a very good argument to be made that the since the Orange Order were responsible for this regional and millitary chaos and the impression it conveyed on the Continent, especially Germany, that ……….The Orange Order Are Responsible For Starting The First World War!

    Once I get a German scholar of the period that I can work with it is a thesis that I intend to dilligantly explore in the not too distant future !

    6) The Northern unionists claimed to speak for Ulster, in the free democratic election of 1918, they were seen to have a majority in four North Eastern counties only.

    7) The Northern unionists insisting the rights of their own majority vote on these four counties to opt out of the proposed Irish Republic.

    8) The Unionist while demanding the rights to have their political majority recognised in regard to the four counties that returned an Orange Majority, immediately denied the democtatic mandate of two adjacent Nationalist counties and annexed these two into their new sectarian statelet without any talks or discussions with the majority Nationalists.

    MU, if we are to have a meaning full discussion on this, start with six, seven and eight. I would sincerely like to see the Unionist argument for violating all the normal rules of democracy spelled out and then may be we can have a starting point to the debate based on factual ballot bix results.

    You do favor the Ballot Box over the bullet I take it so please argue your case !

    Once these facts are established, they we will have a milestone that we can move both forwards and backwards from. Are you up to it ?

  • Munsterview

    “…….… and syntax / intelligibility is obviously not one of your strong points:
    ” … just how were the Four (sic) part Nationalist (sic) Counties (sic) and the Two (sic) Majority Nationalist (sic) Counties (sic) that they hijacked / appended/ appropriated etc into their Orange Statlet (sic) done (sic) re consultation with the Irish People (sic)?”

    Well, I’m not sure how they were “done re consultation”. But the main point that both Irish and British leaders recognized in 1921 was that there was not a single “Irish people” but, in national terms, two peoples with different national allegiances……”

    1) In the first decade of the 20th, century the OO and Unionists especially after the founding of the UVF caused such divisions and distraction to the body politic in these Islands that Germany believed the British Establishment was so riven that Great Britain was on the verge of regional and political disintegration.

    2) The British Army based in Ireland was always a garrison army, and the Officer Class always mirrored the Irish and British establishments at a time when a few years of army service was the natural starting point for a later career in politics or business.

    3) When the British Army de facto mutinied on the ‘Ulster’ issue, it send out a strong signal around Europe and to Germany in particular that the Government had not the confidence of the Army and therefore may not be in a position to use it.

    4) Given this German perception of Great Britain regional unilateralism, threatened breakup and the prospect of an Officer Class mutiny, is it any surprise that Germany thought that it’s hour had come and that this was the time to strike ?

    5) In fact there is a very good argument to be made that the since the Orange Order were responsible for this regional and military chaos and the impression it conveyed on the Continent, especially Germany, that ……….The Orange Order Are Responsible For Starting The First World War!

    Once I get a German scholar of the period that I can work with, it is a thesis that I intend to diligently explore in the not too distant future if I can keep my tongue from penetrating my cheek in the process !

    6) The Northern unionists claimed to speak for Ulster, in the free democratic election of 1918, they were seen to have a majority in four North Eastern counties only.

    7) The Northern unionists insisting the rights of their own majority vote on these four counties to opt out of the proposed Irish Republic.

    8) The Unionist while demanding the rights to have their political majority recognized in regard to the four counties that returned an Orange Majority, immediately denied the democratic mandate of two adjacent Nationalist counties and annexed these two into their new sectarian statelet without any talks or discussions with the majority Nationalists.

    MU, if we are to have a meaning full discussion on this, start with six, seven and eight. I would sincerely like to see the Unionist argument for violating all the normal rules of democracy spelled out and then may be we can have a starting point to the debate based on factual ballot box results.

    You do favor the Ballot Box over the bullet I take it so please argue your case !

    Once these facts are established, they we will have a milestone that we can move both forwards and backwards from……… Are you up to it ?

  • Comrade Stalin

    The truth is the truth. Everybody knows it but nobody believes it. Yet everybody believes it but nobody knows it.

    Speaking to John Hume fans and trying to get a straight answer about anything is obviously a total waste of time. I’d get more coherent answers on Shaftesbury Square at 1AM on a Sunday morning.

  • White Horse

    LOL

  • Mainland Ulsterman

    MV,
    “Once I get a German scholar of the period that I can work with it is a thesis that I intend to dilligantly explore in the not too distant future !”
    Well good luck with that. I think it’ll take more than a German scholar though.

    Re six counties rather than 4: if it were to be done by county boundaries, I agree there is a strong case for going for just the 4, though to be honest I’m not 100 per cent sure they were nationalist majority counties in terms of overall votes. Would need to check. But for maximum fairness, I wouldn’t have done it by county at all, which is far too big a unit for border-drawing purposes.I would have broken it down into smaller districts.

    They should have then done what was done in large parts of eastern Europe and brought in professional demographic experts to help draw the border more accurately and decide what went where. The Boundary Commission of 1925 was a good move in this direction, and its proposed border was much better than the one we ended up with; but of course both sides vetoed it.

  • Munsterview

    MU……

    You should be thoroughly ashamed of yourself to try to to take advantage of my reasonable good nature in such a blatant way despite the fact that I am but a niave and dis-advantaged poster, one of the few in this staunch unionst site that try to keep a republican flag flying.

    However since I am already in the lions den…….

    Let us start as we may continue…… with an indisputed certainity…… the figures of the 1918 election.

    Four counties each with a unionist majority and 12.5% of the total when taken as a % of the thirty two counties as a whole.

    The Unionists majorities in these four counties demanded that the majority decision of the other 87.5% the majority of the counties that outnumbered the four by 7 : 1 be ignored as they had by virtue of their majority the right to opt out.

    These four counties then denied their neighbouring two counties the very majority rights that these same four had excercised and annexed them against the majority wishes of those counties on to their statelet.

    Lets do this a step at the time, please explain that dicotomy to me first as it seems prima faci to have been a blatant negation of democracy.

    However since unionists as we all know, would never do such a thing, there must surely be some other explaination and as the saying goes ‘ I am all ears’

  • Wabbits

    Living f**k. !!

    Can I have the last 45 minutes of my life back after reading all that ? Reading that felt like one of those arguments, after a nice dinner party, and at the end of the night everybody shouts at each other because they are full of wine and nobody wants to hear. Jeessuss folks you really should get a life.

  • Munsterview

    At least you had only to read it…..I had to answer the bloody thing ! Count your blessings.