Guido casts a cold eye on Anglo

Political blogger extraordinaire, Guido Fawkes has set the cat among the Dáil pigeons this evening with fascinating results.

Guido has obtained and published a list of foreign Anglo-Irish bondholders as of the close of business tonight. The blogger states:

Every child in Ireland is being bequeathed a huge debt at birth to protect the interests of foreign, mainly German, bondholders – why? Guido was once a bond trader, it was always understood that sometimes the bond issuer defaults. That is the risk investors take.

Among the 80 bondholders companies are Goldman Sachs Asset Management Intl, Aviva Investors France and Barclays Wealth Managers France, the entire list can be viewed here. Guido claims between them they hold Anglo-Irish bonds with a face-value of €4,034,756,880 and asks:

Why is Dublin’s political establishment so keen to protect foreign investors at the expense of future generations? …  These are the people whom Dublin’s politicians really seem to care about.

Shouldn’t they take the hit rather than future generations of Irish taxpayers? Capitalism is a system of profit and loss, they took the risk of investing in Anglo-Irish Bank. Is the Irish government under pressure from the European Central Bank in Frankfurt to protect German investors?

Earlier today Guido Fawkes claimed he has been contacted by a source who suggests Anglo defrauded Irish customers of up to €100 million throughout the 90s. He blogged that he has been given documents from inside Anglo Irish Bank’s treasury department dating back to 1997, which he says, strongly suggest there was a board level approved conspiracy to over-charge corporate customers.

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  • another

    Great Spot.

    Yes, that is where Irish sovereignty has gone

  • another

    HSBC Private Wealth Managers – …Not a very good call lads.

  • Mark McGregor

    Boy that cried wolf, after the wolf was fully reported in the news a month ago? The initial story he punted today was shown to fishwrappers – best to wait and see if there is actually anything in this one as a result.

  • pippakin

    This is fascinating!

    It seems to me that none of the above named would be broken by the loss. Perhaps the government will now explain why they think the like of Barclays and Goldman Sachs are more important than the Irish people.

    I have said from the start that Anglo Irish Bank investors (robbers more like) knew the risks they were taking when they invested in a business.

  • If this is true, then Government has misplaced its obligations, priorities and loyalty.

  • Greenflag

    Pippakin

    ‘Perhaps the government will now explain why they think the like of Barclays and Goldman Sachs are more important than the Irish people.

    They’re taking their cue from the more important world politicians of the calibre of Messrs Obama , Cameron and their predecessors who have been essentially prostrate at the feet of Wall St /Goldman Sachs etc since 2007 publicly , and privately for a decade at least before that . Go read
    13 Bankers – the Wall St takeover by Simon Johnson & James Kwak .

    If our government appears more gutless than the USA’s or UK’s it’s only because Wall St can ‘break ‘ this country if it gets a mind to . It’s not going to exercise that degree of power with Washington or London politicians just yet – nose spiting face and all that . The big banks are back to normal almost in the USA and I read 100 billion has been set aside foir this years bonus’s for all those banking executives who were bailed out by the American taxpayer 🙁 As for the 30 million lives that these Wall St bastards destroyed -so what -next trade boss 🙁 The 1994 losses on derivative trades made by Orange County , California and Proctor and Gamble and other companies led to congressional investigations and numerous lawsuits . Even back then these lawsuits ‘uncovered’ that derivative salesmen were lying to their clients. The iconic quote of the era made by a Banker’s Trust employee was

    ‘Lure people into that calm and then totally f**k them ‘

    The financial industry aided and abetted by it’s friends in the USA Government were easily able to avoid potential congressional legislation THEN -just as they are able to do the same TODAY . The extra consumer protection legislation which has been passed or is about to me is almost a get of jail free card for the banks and financial industry . That will not of course stop them from continuing to exercise every potential leverage or power on the government of the USA or UK or Ireland or wherever 🙁

    The ‘monster’ will have to be faced and cut down otherwise you can forget that you live in a ‘functioning democracy :(!

    Until the big banks are broken up and downsized they will continue to devour the American economy and any other economy that gets in their way .

    ROI is essentially defenceless at this stage .

  • medillen

    This is dynamite, Guido Fawkes bomb will actually go off, good bye Fianna Fail Government.

  • pippakin

    Greenflag

    I don’t pretend to have any indepth knowledge of economy. It has always been the most boring of subjects to me, until the last couple of years that is. I feel a deep unbending anger at the behaviour of the banks and at the subjugation of our government.

    I do not believe the banks will break us. I think the government should call their collective bluff. It is not in the interest of the big banks to bankrupt a western country. The others might get worried!

    I know I’m looking at this from both an amateur and a consumer perspective but I have not seen anything that convinces me otherwise.

  • pippakin

    medillen

    If dreams were wishes and wishes came true… I wish!

  • Progressive Unionist

    I don’t know what drug the southern people seem to be under in meekly accepting the bank bailouts – I hope these revelations wake them up…

    Can’t believe this Fianna Fail govt has lasted so long! At least it looks like the RoI is heading for the first Labour-led government in its history according to the polls…

  • “It seems to me that none of the above named would be broken by the loss. Perhaps the government will now explain why they think the like of Barclays and Goldman Sachs are more important than the Irish people.”

    Clearly, Anglo would only be the first of several defaults EU-wide. What I want to know is what the EU has been telling the Irish Government the consequences of a default would be, and I don’t want to have to wait 30 years to find out.

  • pippakin

    Mark Dowling

    In as much as the EU must have been speaking to (wielding a big stick in a threatening manner) the Irish government: I completely agree.

    I fail to see why the collapse of Anglo, which would be a perfectly normal result of lousy management and worse investment in any business, should be able to affect the Irish nation.

    I wonder if one or two big companies are twisting the arm of little countries.

  • Davros

    Everyone is complicit. Anyone in Ireland who got a wage increase in the last 10 years benefited from an unjustified increase in the standard of living paid for by Germans savings. A bank is just a place people put money. The money loaned to Anglo by the Europeans banks listed above are the savings of hard working Germans. Why should they be punished for the greed of Irish homeowners/speculators? Surely the Irish people are slightly more at fault? That said buyer beware, I have no doubt they’ll be taking a haircut of some kind (or more likely be given keys to Anglo) but I’m a little sick of hearing how ‘the bankers’ drove the country into the ground. It’s playing to the gallery. Every story needs a bogeyman. Amongst all the outrage I haven’t heard anyone Dublin talking heads talking about giving back their own ill gotten gains. Anyone remember the ludicrous SSIA scheme, where the Government just gave people 25% return for no particular reason? Free university tuition while expanding access? Low taxes and generous welfare (dole of €400 vs £60 in North)? all paid for from tax revenue from fictitious profits. Voting Fianna Fáil in 3 times while its leader was under investigation for corruption? Frankly Ireland deserves everything it gets and this is why the people aren’t going mad. From the banker down to the Dell worker whose job was bought with artificially low taxes. They all know they’re guilty as sin. Everyone.

  • Greenflag

    pippakin ,

    ‘I think the government should call their collective bluff. ‘

    If the government of the USA is scared s***less of them it’s probably tempting fate to call their bluff . It would require the collective action of the almost all the democracies of the western world to take on these ‘predators’ given what they have been allowed to become .

    ‘It is not in the interest of the big banks to bankrupt a western country.’

    You might think that but if they shed nary a tear or regret at propelling the US economy into it’s worst recession since the 1930’s why would you think they’d give a continental damn about Ireland, Greece or Spain ?

    BTW you don’t need any in depth knowledge of the economy to ascertain whats been happening these past two decades in the western financial world . It can be reduced to elected politicians virtually everywhere in the western world giving the banks carte blanche permission to loot , steal , defraud and rob millions of their savings and investments while amassing huge profits for themselves . The ‘idea’ from Friedman and Co back in the 1980’s was that the ‘financial industry ‘ could be relied on to behave ethically and would not risk endangering the national economy much less the world economy . Former Federal reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan has apologized for being so mistaken in his assumptions re bank behaviour – some would accuse Greenspan of ‘naivety’ but then one would have to accuse the elected politicians of the time of gross stupidity and criminal neglect of their responsibility to the USA .

    Either way the Banks have learned nothing . They are now embroiled in the robosigning scandal which may cost them 6 billion dollars or more to extricate themselves from while simultaneously driving US home prices down further which will ‘impoverish’ even more millions of americans and push back further any hope of a sustainable recovery .

    And why did the banks ‘invent ‘ robosigning’ of foreclosures ?

    Thats right more bonuses for the lads at the top and cutting costs at the bottom and who gives a stuff anyway about those ‘idiots’ who have been foreclosed on !

    I don’t like to say this but it’s nothing less than outright criminal behaviour , fraud and who knows what else .

    Always remember that whether you call him Mr Cobra or Sir Cobra the predators at the top of the banking world never miss a bite -and if it’s your neck or some senior citizen’s or a young married couple it will not cost them a thought !
    Mammon is their God and don’t ever forget it !

  • Greenflag

    I would’nt wonder . They are . Goldman Sachs for starters with their front spokesman Peter (the thrice crowed ) Sutherland , Rothschilds , Barclays and no doubt others .

  • pippakin

    Greenflag

    I doubt if anyone is going to forget this.

    The US does seem to have found a way of foreclosing that in the real (old?) world defies belief. I understand forty states are now investigating these ‘foreclosures’ but who does it help? People in debt still have the debt whoever owns the damn house!

    I did hear that the UK was looking at ways of changing the ‘too big to fail’ banks and perhaps that may be revistited by the new government there, If it is perhaps that may lead to western government consensus on what is best to do. How about just write the debts off and let the banks go to the wall.:)

  • Greenflag

    Davros?Alias

    ‘A bank is just a place people put money. ‘

    Lol _ Mr Naiveity himself – Commandment number 1 – Bankers are always virtuous and ethical human beings and cannot be accused of consummate greed 🙁

    Yes and the bank’s are not supposed to ‘gamble ‘ with deposits which is what many of them did -not just in Ireland but right across the world . Mr Madoff offered sophisticated American and European investors a guaranteed 12% for the better part of a decade and so blind were the financial regulators that Madoff would still be paying out 12% except for Lehman Bros collapse .

    The pattern of Wall Street fraudulent CDO investments was seen all over the world from Iceland to Ireland to Germany .
    and further afield and they the Wall St banks were all selling every piece of crap paper they could while lying to their clients about the ‘value’. The Congressional hearings for the Goldman Sachs executives showed these people as basically being the scum of the earth – pin striped suited thieves with the morality of an amoeba 🙁

  • Greenflag

    ‘I doubt if anyone is going to forget this.’

    I should hope not . This is Ireland’s first bubble burst 🙁 And hopefully the younger generation will learn from it and will also learn that bankers and politicians are just as susceptible to corruption and crime as the rest of humanity if not more so 🙁

    ‘The US does seem to have found a way of foreclosing that in the real (old?) world defies belief. I understand forty states are now investigating these ‘foreclosures’ but who does it help ‘

    The investigation of these foreclosures at least delays the dumping of these properties on an already bloated sales market . Even if the banks were to get their hands on these properties now all they will do is sit empty and cost the banks maintenance etc and eventually the debt will have to be written off . There are no buyers . If the banks give them away at half price or less all that will achieve is wipe out billions more in notional equity for remaining property owners . With increasing unemployment and the fear of near future unemployment (the real figure is closer to 20% than 10% ) Americans have for the most part stopped buying property . Indeed the whole economic basis of the modest American dream of owning one’s own home is now being relegated in people’s priorities . This will have a future dampening effect on any economic recovery as 7 of the last 8 recoveries originated in the housing sector .

    ‘I did hear that the UK was looking at ways of changing the ‘too big to fail’ banks and perhaps that may be revistited by the new government there, If it is perhaps that may lead to western government consensus on what is best to do. ‘

    That is what I personally was hoping would happen from earlier this year but originating in the USA more so than the UK . But for a whole host of reasons Obama simply has’nt got the political capital to take on the banks and break them up . Bush of course never wanted to . In fact since the bail out the big banks have grabbed an even greater stranglehold on the country’s politicians as BOA have swallowed Merril Lynch and Citi Group and Goldman Sachs have also digested their former competition . LIkewise Obama’s economic team (Summers , Rubin , Greenspan) all wall St heavy hitters have now retired or a back in academia safe from the slingshots of alienated political bases .

    Obama in short has been left high and dry . He may yet rue the day he did’nt listen to Joseph Stiglitz and or Paul Krugman.

    So briefly the ‘politics’ of the upcoming election have also made the notoriously slow USA legislative procedure even slower and with the GOP voting NO to anything that moves the neo con hope is that Obama can be discredited and the oil and war and financial lobbies be allowed to resume their interrupted reign of financial and military terror that was interrupted in Nov 2008 .

    ‘ ‘How about just write the debts off and let the banks go to the wall.:)’

    Thats what many Americans wanted in 2008 in particular the very far right . At the time however it probably would have caused a world economic collapse given that all of the major banks in the USA were treading water and their global connections would have also been dragged down with them.

    As far as Ireland was concerned we might have gotten away with letting Anglo Irish bite the dust . But that bird has now flown 🙁

    We have to hope that in the new year that Obama regains sufficient political authority to allow him to break up the ‘too big too fail ‘ financial institutions and other western politicians follow his example . But at this stage I would’nt bet on it. I read the State of Florida is preparing to elect a far right Governor one Rick Scott GOP – whose company committed fraud on such a massive scale that the government ordered 1.7 billion dollars in criminal and civil fines .This candidate has promised to govern Florida the way he ran his business. The fact that he emerged ‘filthy rich’ from a scandal that drove him out as CEO you might think would dampen his chances in the polls. Not a bit of it . When almost every political candidate for office is a gangster then nobody is a gangster or it’s all a matter of degree 🙁 Democracy as we know it in peril ? Indeed ! Maybe thats why they’re trying to export it to Afghanistan and Iraq and under any future GOP oligarchy to Iran as well 🙁

  • Alias

    “The money loaned to Anglo by the Europeans banks listed above are the savings of hard working Germans. Why should they be punished for the greed of Irish homeowners/speculators?”

    Indeed, and why should Irish taxpayers be punished for the greed of German banks and the greed of German depositors in seeking higher deposit rates based on profits derived from lending money to buy property and Mercs in Ireland?

    Do you think eurosystem banks lent 1.67 trillion euros to other eurosystem banks in Ireland in the space of 10 years because of altruism or because they would make hundred of billions in profits on the transations? Every house sale in equalled more in profit for a german bank than the state gained in property tax.

    Do you think it was wise or utterly reckless of those eurosystem banks to lend over twice the ammount of Ireland’s total GDP to other eurosystem banks in one year alone? German banks are the most overleveraged in the world, with no major German bank having a leverage ratio of less than 52. A safe leverage ratio is 5 or 6.

  • Alias

    Typo: “Do you think it was wise or utterly reckless of those eurosystem banks to lend over twice the amount of Ireland’s total GDP to other eurosystem banks in Ireland in one year alone?”

  • Alias

    Incidentally, it isn’t just the Anglo’s foreign bondholders that the government has underwritten: it is the depositors too. 76% of Anglo’s are foreign. For some reason, while Brian Lenihan has given the number of depositors that are foreign, he hasn’t given the percentage of deposits that are foreign. The reason for this deliberate omission is likely to be that the percentage of deposits that are foreign is higher than the the percentage of depositors that are foreign. If it was lower, he would have given it. So how much higher than 76% is it?

  • another

    “but I’m a little sick of hearing how ‘the bankers’ drove the country into the ground.”

    In the case of Ireland, the bankers did drive the country into the ground, in cahoots with their friends in the property industry, the tame and compliant media, the corrupt politicians, and the almost non-existent judiciary.

  • John East Belfast

    The last time I looked at Anglo Balance Sheet it was about Eur 100 billion of assets supported by around Eur 5b of Shareholder Funds and Eur 95 b of Creditors – including this Eur 4b of Bondholders.

    The to be Eur 30billion write down in Anglo wipes out the Shareholders Funds but leaves Eur 25b + to be taken up by the State. Hence there was stilll Eur 20b of other Creditors who would lose out – these would have included both individuals and Corporates with deposits at Anglo.

    The only reason such depositors left their money with Anglo and didnt cause a car crash of a run on the Irish Banks was because of the Guarantee provided by the ROI Govt.

    There is a question of the trust and the integrity of what the Irish Govt says – My word is my Bond so to speak. Can you imagine what interest rate the ROI State would be borrowing at now ?

    Also you cant distingusih between creditors in a non break up situation – ie just pay the ones you want and let the foreign ones take it on the chin.

    Therefore you can either have controlled and managed wind down vy the State or you can have chaos which I assume those who have done the sums believe would cost infinitely more in the long run.

    Hence I think it is populist and short sighted to just want to take it out on 5% of Anglo’s Creditors

  • Of course this crises is not only about what is on the official balance sheet, before the crash the banking system was; and probably still is awash with black money. The bankers and political gofers are hardly likely to allow Russian oligarchs and the State they serve; or Colombian Disco Powder PLC take a hit as these guys have absolutely no respect for political authority beyond their own shore.

    When Browns bag-man to the wealthy went to Rothschild’s place in the Med just before the crash he was tying up loose ends, such as a change in government in 2010, and telling these crooks unlike the man in the street,their money was safe.

    Welcome to UK PLC, totally corrupt and in the pocket of foreign powers and individuals, why would tiny Ireland be any different?

    By the way I doubt if guidos ‘splash’ will create much backwater, they rarely do, no matter how extraordinaire some folk think he is. The fact he exists tells all.

  • Jane Jeffers

    Although very hard to like, Guido has had a huge effect on UK politics (f.eks – the expenses scandal was largely fuelled by him and MPs are terrified of him).

    The Republic could use someone like him to expose the ease with which “leaders” exercise corruption.

  • Jane Jeffers

    What?
    Do you mean we must await the irish Times or Sindo to offically confirm the truth of his claims?

    Get real. This is ireland we are talking about.

  • Greenflag

    JJ

    ‘and MPs are terrified of him).

    That’s something of a relief -so it’s not just the banks that terrifies MP’s .

    ‘The Republic could use someone like him to expose the ease with which “leaders” exercise corruption.’

    Our eh ‘political experience ‘ is somewhat different from the UK in that respect . We”l either grin and bear it and in time overcome it i.e suffer or else there’ll be a bloody revolution and while I suspect the former outcome to be the most likely I would not exclude the latter as an impossibility .

    The ‘Irish’ have a reputation for being ‘unpredictable ‘ historically which is a consideration always to be born in mind . We have seen the inevitable never happen and the impossible and unlikely triumph 😉

  • Greenflag

    Your point seems to be that the EU and German banks ‘gambled’ with their depositors /investors monies but that Wall St and the City of London did’nt by exporting worthless paper all over the world ?

    A neutral observer might note that what the European banks were doing was competing with Wall St ‘waste paper in a ‘free market ‘ competition to see which banking consortium would become master of the universe or at least dominate world banking ! You may be getting around yet to persuading yourself that neo con ‘capitalism’ is an abject failure and that stability in world financial markets will only be restored by both the USA and the EU authorities breaking up the international banking cartels and imposing tighter regulations on bank activities and enacting much tougher legislation to rein in the white collar criminal financial class -whose actions this past decade or more have undermined what is left of our democracies !

    You underestimate the perspicacity of slugger readers when you mention ‘altruism’ and ‘banks’ in the same sentence.

  • Jane

    Most MPs and TD’s are fearful of a dog barking at night, the more so if they have been in another man’s bed, but i doubt those with real power give a toss about Guido, indeed I would bet a pound to a penny it is some of these folk who throw him the odd bone, when they need to make a point, or get someone back in line.

    Perhaps you could tell me when one of his stories helped make a bad situation better? Which surely must be the bottom line for anyone who regards themselves the conduit of whistle blowers.

    How this man has the cheek to take the name of a courageous revolutionary is beyond me, well, perhaps not 😉

    Take this story, you do not have to be a genus to see who it benefits, it also knots together peoples prejudices. Guido is there so the gullible believe we have a free media in the UK and Ireland, if he did not exist the spooks would make him up.

    You mentioned the expenses scandal, was that the one which made a great deal of brouhaha, but in the long run nothing much changed. Remind me, what was going on with the UK banks when the papers were full of gossip about MPs behaving badly, as if they ever behaved differently.

    Oh yes, whilst MP’s were stealing what amounted to small change, the banks, their clients and political gofers were involved in grand larceny.

  • Glencoppagagh

    I fail to see what is so exciting about Guido’s revelation. Are we surprised that the bondholders are prominent investment institutions? Did everyone think up to now that they were the proverbial Belgian dentist or German widow?

  • Wilde Rover

    At least we can be comforted in the fact that one of the bondholders will be doing God’s Work.

    I fear indentured servitude will be making a big comeback in this century.

  • Greenflag

    It already has .It’s just they don’t call it that . Not PC . Wait until 80% of the western middle class and working class are emisserated to third world levels and the media spinners will find a word for it . By then of course whichever totalitarian regime is in power either of the left or right will have found a new way out with of course the blood of whatever scapegoats they can find en route on their hands 🙁 Not that that would be a bother to them anyway .

  • Alias

    There is a very simple explanation for why eurosystem banks are massively overleveraged: the EC implmented the European Capital Requirements Directive that allowed them to massively overleverage.

    No major US bank has a leverage ratio of more than 20, whereas no major German bank has a leverage ratio of under 52.

    Why did the EC allow eurosytem banks to massively overleverage? Because the ECB’s expansionist monetary policies required them to inject capital into the system in order to promote economic growth through the supply of cheap credit to consumers.

  • Alias

    “There is a question of the trust and the integrity of what the Irish Govt says – My word is my Bond so to speak. ”

    True, but that only applies because they guaranteed Anglo. If the state did not guarantee Anglo then the state would not have defualted and it’s word would not be worthless.

    The US did not guarantee Lehman Brothers, and its collapse did not impact of the ability of the US government to borrow. Likewise, the Irish state should not have guaranteed Anglo.

    However, unlike the Irish state, the US has sovereighty over its macroeconomic and monetary policies and over its banks whereas the Irish state has giventhat sovereignty away to those who dult determine the policy in their interest and not in the Irish state’s interest.

  • Jimmy

    It’s obviously come as a surprise to him. One could further make the equally obvious point that the ultimate investors, rather than the institutions are the actual risk takers here. The list is pretty meaningless. Like you I’m finding it a struggle the see what the Emperor is wearing here. But then I was never a bond trader.

  • Alias

    Then you haven’t been reading the Irish media. The Irish have been led think by the state and rabidly europhile media that they’re bailing out Irish banks and depositors in their own national interest rather than bailing out foreign banks and depositors in those foreign interest at the direct expense of their own national interest.

  • Greenflag,

    In the 1970s economic crises, a group of newspaper barons, led by the mirror lot, Mountbatten ,various businessmen and city folk and retired and not so retired generals, started rattling their batons, perhaps we should see Guido as a forerunner of this type of crap.

    If your predictions come true these people will be desperate to divert middle class anger. Interesting times. What a curse as the Chinese say.

  • Jimmy

    Presumably the aim was to maintain investor confidence. The “screw you johnny foreigner” approach being advocated here may play well to the peanut gallery but hardly squares with the objective. There is a legitimate argument as to whether the national interest requires investor protection but if it does then surely the nationality of the investor is irrelevant.

  • Alias

    “Presumably the aim was to maintain investor confidence. The “screw you johnny foreigner” approach being advocated here may play well to the peanut gallery but hardly squares with the objective. There is a legitimate argument as to whether the national interest requires investor protection but if it does then surely the nationality of the investor is irrelevant.”

    The EU, which directs policy in this area, has no mandate to stimulate ‘investor confidence’ in the Irish banking system. Besides, bondholders do not “invest” – they lend.

    If the government wanted to create ‘investor confidence’ in the Irish economy then bankrupting the state was hardly the way to do it – nor was embarking on a sceme that can only be paid for by raising taxes on those investors.

    Now while you may have been brainwashed to beleive that bondholders are entitled to a free indemnity service that should be retrospectively povided by the taxpayers within a state where the private corporations to whom they loaned capital are legally domiciled that is not the basis on which those bondholders provided that capital and nor should such an entitlement exist.

    Likewise, an American corporation, for example (which would be an investor as opposed to a lender), that locates in a foreign state to make cars or batteries is not entitled to recoup the costs of that investment from the taxpayers of that state if the business fails.

    It is also ill-informed nonsense to suggest that bondholders would not lend to other private corporations in a state if one of those private corporations failed. There are thousands of lenders of capital and thousands of borrowers of capital and those individual contracts are in dependent on each other.

    If you have been led to think, as you have, that lender A would terminate his contract with borrower B because borrower H has defaulted on his contract with lender K, then you don’t understand the first thing about business and really should not be commented on the subject at all. No lender will put his contracts at risk just to express solidarity with another lender that has lost his money through default, and were they deranged enough to do so then none of the lenders would get any of their money back.

  • Alias

    Just to add that the propaganda is being put out by europhiles that the bondholders and depositors in Anglo lent their money to Ireland. They did no such thing. They lent and deposited their money with a private corporate entity within the eurosystem. Their contract existed with the private corporate entity, and not with the Irish state.

    Likewise, there is propaganda that the bondholders in thse failed eurosystem banks lent their money to a legal entity called “Ireland” when again they did no such thing. It was private corporations lending to other private corporations.

  • another

    The question of who knew what, and who did what, in the Anglo Irish Bank affair looks like coming to a head, after its former director David Drumm told the Irish Independent “that every step he and his board of directors took in the bank’s dying days was taken “hand in hand” and with the full knowledge of the Financial Regulator and the Central Bank.”

    Mr Drumm was asked what the future held for him, now that he has applied for bankruptcy in the US.

    He replied: “So many things have been thrown at me now. I’m a bankrupt. I could never have imagined that would happen to me. I’ve got young children. It’s about getting through today and tomorrow.”

    As the following reprt shows, he appears to be doing quite well in his $4.5m house (“homestead :-)) in the States;

    http://url.ie/7w9q

  • Greenflag

    ‘The “screw you johnny foreigner” approach being advocated here ‘

    By who ? Yourself in your anti EU mode ?

    It’s more ‘Screw you mr banker and hedge fund manager and insurance fraudster and complicit politicians ‘

    Where they are from (all of the above is immaterial ) .The fact that most of them congregate in Wall St, and the City and in parliaments is neither here nor there .Probably just a coincidence :(? .

    Nobody is denying that people as individuals are not partly responsible for the current situation whether it be in Ireland the USA or Iceland or Spain or Greece or the UK etc but the tree rots from the top and there is now a general understanding that virtually the entire top CEO level in Wall St and in banking firms across the world including those here in Ireland were up to their hairlines in fraud , bribery and corruption apart from mere ethical misbehaviours such as lying to their clients and looting pension and retirement funds !

    One foreclosure is a tragedy – 8 million (the USA expected total ) is not just a statistic . It’s enough to undermine whatever democracy is left in the USA and if and when that happens there won’t be any shelter to run to for the rest of the world 🙁

  • Jimmy

    Can’t for the life of me see what any of that gibberish has to do with what I posted.

  • Jimmy

    “Just to add that the propaganda is being put out by europhiles that the bondholders and depositors in Anglo lent their money to Ireland.”

    You really are the king of the straw men aren’t you? Who precisely do you believe is making this claim?

  • Greenflag

    How to tell if a CEO is lying ? And no it’s not if his/her lips are moving it’s a bit more scientific . Now all we need is a test for politicians 😉 Perhaps not – no society can afford to lose their entire elected political class in a night of the lie -test 😉

  • Greenflag

    Oops sorry wrong one -the one above is Obama’s half sister speaking the truth on German TV on he problems facing developing countries.’

    How to tell if a CEO is lying is hereunder . Might have been more useful a decade ago -still better late than never . On the other if the lying swine now know how they can be identified beforehand it’s probably safe to assume they’ll find another way to ‘lie’ 🙁 ?

    http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=130544236

  • Alias

    An amendment to European Law, which has supremacy over Irish law, will be come into effect from December that will force the Irish government to limit its guarantee to bank depositors to a maximum amount of 100,000 euro.

    The effect of the amended law – the Deposit Guarantee Schemes Directive – will be to ensure that less money would be made available to repay those depositors in a failed bank and more money would then be available to repay bondholders.

    The more immediate effect of the EU Directive limiting the amount to be paid to depositors will be capital flight from unstable Irish banks to more stable banks elsewhere in the world. That capital is only retained within the state because the government has made the guarantee for depositors unlimited, and so the EU is about to pull the rug out from under them.

    So the EU, at least, has its priorities right: it is screw your citizens, and look after our bondholders.

  • Greenflag

    Alias,

    ‘in order to promote economic growth through the supply of cheap credit to consumers.’

    Which is what also happened in the USA until even there the ‘credit’ market collapsed particularly for small and medium businesses and for those house buyers who bought into the ‘bubble’ which along with worthless CDO paper etc spread throughout the world .

    ‘No major US bank has a leverage ratio of more than 20, whereas no major German bank has a leverage ratio of under 52.’

    That may be true but here is no foreclosure crisis in Germany or France and those countries have a social safety net and universal health insurance so that the bottom 20 to 30% of the population will not feel obliged to arm themselves and take what they need by force .

    ‘Why did the EC allow eurosytem banks to massively overleverage? ‘

    A good question . Probably because they gave as much foresight to the consequences of such a policy as the Fed did in the USA with regard to both the housing bubble and the the insane growth of the ‘derivatives’ market which was allowed to to sell worthless paper abroad as a sound investment .

    I’m reminded of when Mr Greenspan was asked a simple question by some interviewer in the days when the budget deficit was climbing ever more due to the wars during the Bush presidency and Mr Greenspan gave an equally simple answer although not one that won him any kudos
    The interviewer made the point that the USA deficit could not continue to grow and that at some point it would be made to stop and did he Mr Greenspan know what would happen if it continued to grow .

    His reply was he did’nt . The kind of answer that ‘economists ‘ get away with for they are after all the experts in predicting the recessions after they happen 🙁

  • Greenflag

    Mick Hall ,

    Rumour had it that MI5 or MI6 or MI25 was issued a contract on PM Harold Wilson(a suspected communist) but fortunately for the latter he lost an election in the nick of time 😉 Not that I believe a word of it not being into conspiracy theories but it sounds like a good story .

    The western world is going through an economic structural change of the kind that probably has’nt been experienced since the industrial revolution . Unfortunately the economic policy measures which are being taken both in the USA and UK have the objective of trying to returning their ‘economies’ to a place that that will no longer exist by the time they get there .

    A bit off topic but we need to remember the equivalent military adage that generals tend to fight wars based on the last war’s technology and lessons . Which is why the French got caught out by the Germans going around the Maginot line .

    Right now around the world ‘economists ‘ are advising politicians in similar maginot line ‘rescue ‘ plans or so it seems to me at least 🙁

  • Greenflag

    ‘that will force the Irish government to limit its guarantee to bank depositors to a maximum amount of 100,000 euro.’

    Is that limit per person or per bank account or per bank ? or do you know . If I have three bank accounts with 100,000 in euros in each will I be all right jack as Messrs Fingleton, Fitzpatrick, and Drumm might say ?

  • Alias

    Per person.

  • Alias

    It’s actually ‘per person, per bank’ rather than per person. So the new maximum limit of €100,000 applies to all accounts belonging to one account holder at any one bank. I guess you could try to get around that by depositing a maximum of 100k in any one bank, but that won’t prevent capital flight since the workaround only works for those with mickey mouse money.

  • Greenflag

    Thanks I’ll be allright then -I can find at least a dozen outlets in the nearby vicinity 🙂

    No problem then for the most of us I’d say !