‘Fuck the Pope’

Kilsally has expanded an extensive list of quotes and links on why some groups are objecting to Joseph Ratzinger’s visit to Britain with the objections of various Protestant groups.

However, it is worth noting that Kilsally has been posting these objections for an extended period on the Orange Order facebook page he maintains and fighting a deletion battle with supporters much more direct (honest?) with their issue.

While much of the more objectionable content was deleted, with every theological and/or considered article presented there was a need to delete a torrent of contributions that included ‘FTP’ as  standard reply.

Could it be suggested that many supporting ‘biblical protestant’ rejection of the visit are merely motivated by raw sectarian hatred and are hiding behind the articulate cloak of others? Kilsally certainly couldn’t be accused of it – the poor guy has been deleting bile for months (he has had to delete it though).

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  • Alias

    Wouldn’t it be wonderful if human beings were rational? They wouldn’t generate such irrational feelings as love, compassion, mercurial personalities, et al. Then we could all terminate those born with bad genes that are a blighton resources or those born with useless traits such as a sense of humour that are other than entirely rational. Oh, what a wonderful world that would be…

  • JJ Malloy

    The world would be a much better place without the Koran and those deluded souls who demand blood when someone even thinks of burning it

  • JJ Malloy

    Oracle

    Are you aware of the evolutionary dimension in the belief in the supernatural?

  • Oracle

    No perhaps you could explain its concept and i’ll reply to it JJ

  • Rory Carr

    Oracle,

    On the matter of my preference for using given titles rather than schoolboy vulgarisms when referring to people who hold such titles you take me to task by accusing me of having a position which I do not hold viz.: “Therefore you claim that you’re a communist that respects the patronage of aristocracy and gives full title to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II.”

    Nowhere did I lay any claim to such respect of patronage, nor can anything I have ever said or written ever be construed to infer such respect, quite the opposite in fact. Yet you claim it and then go on to deny me my stated political stance on the basis of a untruth that you have concocted. Not a good and not an honest way to proceed in argument we might think.

    Nor is it I who “gives full title to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II”, that was given to her by the British state at her coronation. In using that title I do no more than recognise that simple fact.

    What you fail to grasp is that it is by running away from these titles and, like a schoolboy who calls the headmaster he is frightened of, “Old Billykins”, or whatever in a childish attempt to pretend that he is not afraid of Mr. Williams, his authority and his cane. It is by allowing such personages the usage of title and still refusing to be cowed by it that we demonstrate our indifference to that title but yet our cognisance of the reality of the power that goes with it. Monarchs and popes and presidents and prime ministers, like headmasters, do wield power and it would be foolish in the extreme, especially for those of us who would oppose such power were we to pretend to diminish it by childish name-calling. If I may quote a passage from Corinthians in the King James’ translation without inciting you to apoplexy:

    “When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.”

    As to effective use of argument in a forum such as this may I point out that the statement which you repeated above:

    “Anyone… who believes in religion is a halfwit, a gombeen, a coward, and a blight on the progression of the human race.”

    holds no importance, indeed no meaning whatsoever apart from the very fact that you wrote it. Unlike the Red Queen in Alice the mere fact of your just saying something does not make it so and while you may temporarily assuage some emotional agitation by saying it, it has no effect whatsoever as forceful argument. You would do well to pay attention to the more skilled debaters on here, particularly those with whom you may find yourself most in disagreement. You will find that even when you “know” what they are arguing is “wrong” they may be a damned sight better at presenting their argument than you may be at presenting yours. If you can then still engage with in a reasoned presentation you may well convince them that you are right and they are wrong…or even learn from each other.

    But don’t hold your breath.

  • Oracle

    Rory Carr

    There you go again wasting byte space on the internet with complete drivel, if you have a point you should try making it instead of waffling copious quantities of irrelevant horseshit in the hope some uneducated halfwit will be impressed sufficiently to praise your tedious contradictory ramblings.
    You enjoy yourself with the dross and the fools Rory and I’ll stick with the interesting people who actually have an original thought of their own okay.

    However seeing as you have a habit of refering to Alice in Wonderland, hopefully not the only book you’ve ever read, he is a quote from Alice in the book that refers to your latest post

    “I don’t believe there’s an atom of meaning in it”

  • Big Maggie

    Oracle,

    “I don’t believe there’s an atom of meaning in it”

    Nor is there any real meaning in the word “atom”. It’s supposed to mean something like “unsplittable”.

    However… back to Alice:

    “When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.”

  • Oracle

    Maggie,

    The book was written in 1865 (care of Wiki I thought it was the 1920’s myself)

    I would suggest that it was clear that at that time the word atom was chosen by Dodgson (Carroll) because atom referred to the tinyiest amount non divisible.

  • Big Maggie

    Oracle,

    And I would suggest that you used the word in 2010 to slag off our friend Rory :^)

  • Alias

    Not a bad flame actually…

  • joeCanuck

    Rory,

    I received a useful piece of advice day before yesterday:

    Never argue with an idiot; he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

  • Rory Carr

    I think your friend may be right, Joe, I do seem to have incited the poor lad to apoplexy if his reply to me is any indication.

    Never mind, what is good in what I had to say to him will slowly sink in regardless and no doubt one day, long after I am gone, he will be giving the same advice to some other young hothead.

  • JJ malloy

    To paraphrase: So the argument goes that as our human ancestors spread around the world in bands, keeping together for food and protection, groups with a religious belief system survived better because they worked better together.

    Here is a short article. Interesting to speculate, if nothing else.

    http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=129528196

  • WYSIWYG

    Joe (& everyone – sorry to go totally off thread here BUT) – I thought this was a great line. In my experience, it’s so very true. Sometimes you realize there’s just no point in trying to pursue a line of argument when you’re dealing with an idiot.

    I thought the quote you shared was so good that I shared it with my colleagues. Which ended in a really depressing place. One asked, in a nut shell, how come the word idiot is OK to use yet ‘retard’ or ‘spastic’ isn’t. After some explanation and discussion he said, ‘Well my dad calls me a spastic…so it can’t be that bad’ His father is a G.P., and a relatively young man at that. Apparently he refers to lots of people (who annoy him) as, ‘spastics’. I despair. GMC??

  • Oracle

    JJ,

    absolute clap-trap…. are these idiots now claiming that there was religion 200,000 years ago when we left the cradle of africa to travel the world..

    these idiots will clutch at any straws without thought

  • Alan Maskey

    Looking at the Billy Wright fotage on the TV, King Rat would not have supported the visit. And nor would the tens of thousands of ordinary decent Protestants who turned out to cheer him and esupport his Brit supported extermination campaign.

  • slappymcgroundout

    “Anyone… who believes in religion is a halfwit, a gombeen, a coward, and a blight on the progression of the human race.”

    Have you ever heard of Michael Faraday? James Maxwell? Those blights on the progression of the human race had their portraits hanging on the wall of Einstein’s study (along with Newton’s). Here, the respective Wiki pages:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Faraday
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Clerk_Maxwell

    Not bad for two halfwits.

  • Alan Maskey

    There are lots more, like Collins (not the traitor) and Newton himself, who wrote more on alchemy than on physics.
    The nothingness of atheism is a good stick, Sometihng like Marxism as it allows four legged wanna be intellectuals stand on two legs.
    The Pope should go to an Old Firm game. Certainly better than swanning around meeting sycophants.

    Regarding the visit of Christ’s Vicar on earth: please note the pivotal role Patten is playing. Please also note he is meeting HMQE2, the head of a rival dissident group. These two (HMQE2), her loyal servant Patten, Tony Blair and Thatcher (who will wear a mantila) probe, if proof was needede, that Pope Ben and his mates don’t really give a fiddler’s f-k about the low level life we find around Belfast.
    Bigger fish to fry. Bigger games.

  • Rory Carr

    If you care to read Marx’s writings, Alan, you might learn why he is considered as the most profound spiritual writer of the 19th century. If you find that you need an introduction you could begin with some of the shorter works of Erich Fromm – long considered “one of the world’s most influential and brilliant thinkers on psychological, philosophical and social issues” (see further here:http://bit.ly/d87bhV). Fromm regarded the great spiritual teachers to be: The Buddha, the Christ, Meister Eckhart, Marx and Freud.

    I would draw your attention to his critique of Edward Bauer’s gross reductionism of the concept of love as something apart from the man who acts in a loving manner in The Holy Family as the beginning of wisdom in a journey into the profound depths of Marx’s spirituality.

    Or you may wish to consider the kernel of Marx’s thoughts on alienation which rotates around the conflicting modes of having and being viz.:

    ‘The less you are and the less you express your life – the more you have and the greater is your alienated life.
    …Everyrthing the economist takes away from you in the ways of life and humanity, he restores to you in the form of money and wealth.’

    If having pondered that thought anyone can claim any lack of, or enmity towards, spirituality in Marx then I fear that that person has, through very alienation, lost their own soul to the Great God of Have.

  • Rory Carr

    For more on Fromm try this link as above link seems not to function:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_Fromm

  • spige

    In Scotland the pope plans to meet Jeanette Krankie but only if she wears her school uniform.

  • JJ malloy

    I certainly would have expected our ancestors to worship the Sun or something similar to that.

    Makes just as much, if not more, sense as the Mythology billions all over the world live by today

  • spige

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VABSoHYQr6k

    An American’s take on the Catholic Church.

  • Alan Maskey

    So the riff raff had their sectarian hate filled march through London today protesting at tax payers picking up the tab. They are too dense to work out that the tax payer (and many of the riff raff were students or dole scroungers) had to pay for their Saturday afternoon trip.

    Rory carr: I have read plenty of Marx and Engels. Engles, in between exploiting child labour, had some experience. All Marx did was sit in the British National Library and use Hegel to guide him. Marx is a lightweight and all the tomes he left Engels to edit does not change that. There is nothing profound about him.

  • Rory Carr

    Thank you for that, Alan. I am sure that to future generations Maskey’s Critique of Marx wil be the definitive tome sought out by eager students of political economy everywhere.

    You don’t happen to have a sentence or two handy on Smith and Ricardo by any chance just to round out the ouvre?

  • Alan Maskey

    Ricardo was interesting: one of the few economists who made money but from the inside. Nice simplistic “theory” too, justifying mass exploitation through comparative advantage. A is better at growing opium, B at tea and the unseen hand gets them to trade according to their respective advantages and enrich the unseen hand.
    Adam Smith, an East India company lackey, whose opus was a screed against mercantilism, the dominant economic idea prior to that.
    On the weak foundations that these dead white men give embittered people try to underwrite their ideologies and prejudices.
    Actually any critique of mine or anyone else on Marx wil not be well read for the simple reason that he and his half baked ideas will fade into the obscurity that they deserve.

    But even as he continues to fade, the Papacy and religion will continue.

  • Big Maggie

    Just to add this. I’m looking at the Sunday Times (gone up by 20p I notice) and its bias is embarrassing.

    Page one is gives oodles of space to Cameron telling the pope that Britain isn’t actually a secular state. This is kind of belied by this page that lists actual church attendance. The UK weighs in as fourth from last in Europe, which suggests to me that although many people are still on the Churches’ books as members, they are no longer part of said Churches.

    But to return to the Sunday Times. On page 4 we have Bryan Appleyard twice referring to those protesting in London yesterday as an “unholy coalition”. (Note to Sluggerites: If you object to a supernaturalist in a funny costume introducing his swollen member into the orifice of a child then it’s YOU who is the “unholy” one. My apologies to the faint of heart among us but the severity of the crimes perpetrated by clerical rapists cannot—and should not—be understated.)

    In the same article I read that Peter Tatchell “had hoped for 2,000 people [protesting]: this was many more.” Really, Bryan? How many more? Ah, I see: in the caption accompanying the main pic I read: “About 2,000 were estimated to have joined the march.”

    Funny that. Appleyard opened with: “Piccadilly seized up, the Circus was in chaos and Haymarket was choked.”

    Could it be that the estimate of 2000 erred on the side of caution? Possibly. The National Secular Society puts the numbers at between “ten and twelve thousand secularists” and yesterday’s Guardian agrees with this.

    Enough already! A national newspaper is entitled to its biases. We’re all human—even editors and commentators. But when I’m asked to fork out £2.20 for a paper then I expect integrity and not barefaced lies.

  • Seymour Major

    “the severity of the crimes perpetrated by clerical rapists cannot—and should not—be understated”

    It has not. It would be insulting to the media, generally, to event suggest that. That includes the Times Group of Newspapers.

    A lot of water has flowed under the bridge since the Church Paedophile scandals hit the news (which is now at least 8 years).

    Many of the new protesters are using the paedophile scandals as a flag to draw attention to their own agenda.

    The media has picked up upon that and quite rightly so.

  • Alan Maskey

    Good points Mr Major.

    To take the condoms in Africa issue: some good statistical research has belatedly been done on this. Lrt’s just say Africa is a lot more gay friendly than we have been led to believe.
    Over 1 million Americans are HIV+. More than 750,000 West Europeans also have the gift as Tatchell’s unholy coalition call it. None of them can blame the Catholic Church in Africa. Their own hedonism and relativism (cf the Pope’s sermons) would be a better target.

    Finally Big Maggie. One of the main reaosns people went to churchwas it was a community thing. James Joyce had a good line on it in Finnegans Wake. Go read it. In fact, I would venture more priests have read it than have Sluggerities. Go figure.

  • Big Maggie

    Nice bit of issue-dodging there, lads.

    The Down team could probably benefit from that kind of fancy footwork today :^)

  • Alan Maskey

    No issue dodging. Your link is an interesting one. Yes, the RC Church needs better management. Yes, the RC Church is largely middle class. I have been saying that for ages.

    Church attendance or numbers is not the deciding factor. Think of the IRA’s cell structure or the role the Jews have. Quality, not quantity.
    There is, necessarily, overlap between Cameron’s views and those of the Pope’s. No one would expect anytihng else.
    And the pathetically modest number of riff raff who sludged through London in protest (mar dhea) but to highlighht the glories of fisting and their other pet pervs should pay for the coat ofpolicing their protest and should recompense shopkeepers for loss of earnings. ASnything else?

  • hoboroad

    The five countries with the highest prevalence of HIV/AIDS are Swaziland (where 26.1 per cent of the population have the disease), Botswana (23.9 per cent infection rates), Lesotho (23.2 per cent), South Africa (18.1 per cent) and Namibia (15.3 per cent). Yet in Swaziland, 40 per cent of the population are Zionist (which has nothing to do with Judaism: it’s a blend of Christianity and indigenous ancestral worship), 30 per cent are ‘other’ (Anglican, Methodist, Mormon, Jewish), and only around 20 per cent are Roman Catholic. In Botswana, 71.6 per cent of the population are Christian, but the majority of these are Anglicans, Methodists or part of the United Congregational Church of Southern Africa. In South Africa, only 7.1 per cent of the population are Catholic; there is a far higher number of distinctly non-Catholic Christian believers. In Namibia, around 80 per cent of the population are Christian, but at least 50 per cent of these are Lutheran and the rest are a mix of other Christian faiths, including Catholicism. Lesotho has the highest rate of Catholics out of the five countries most affected by AIDS – but even there it’s only around 36 per cent of the population.

  • Framer

    Those with any sense of history should be fascinated by Pope Benedict’s visit, the sights and the ceremony.

    Seeing him presented to a woman Canon in golden robes at Westminster Abbey was delicious.

    Watching Blair and Brown side by side, one permatanned, was most enjoyable also Major (and his wife – haven’t spotted her in a long time) and Mrs Thatcher (holding hands with Major).

    Listening to our (Newry) man at the Vatican, who seems most of the time to be acting as the Holy See’s ambassador to the UK, was another pleasure.

    Also I had not realised Westminster Cathedral’s interior was so magnificent – light and arabesque rather than Victorian gothic.

    I am surprised OFMDFM got off so lightly from the commentators for their joint boycott. I have not seen McGuinness as furious as when cross-questioned on his absence.

    Yet the poor old Moderator got rubbished by all the SF pedants and BBC liberals for declining to be presented. He was actually being Presbyterian rather than a peace processista.

    The bile poured out before Benedict’s visit from the uber-secularists was almost as unpleasant as the gush appearing now he has arrived.

  • Big Maggie

    Alan,

    Sorry, I should have been clearer. My issue was with a Sunday newspaper cooking the figures to suit its agenda. There’s a huge difference between 2,000 protesters and 10,000—or even 12,000.

    The other stuff I mentioned was beside the point. I repeat: I resent being lied to and shall not be taking the Sunday Times ever again. Fuck the Dirty Digger and all his works.

  • Alan Maskey

    Framer and Hobo: Two excellent posts. Interesting nynbers and implications therefrom (Hobo) and a well written analystical piece (Framer). I must check out Martin sweating it.
    BM: there were probably closer to 2,000. “Big” figures are hard to gauge, even by experts like the Old Bill. Not much reason to cancel your ST, though it does beg the question as tpo why you were supporting this anti trade union filth in the first place.

  • Big Maggie

    Alan,

    Figures are hard to gauge? The ATM news network is putting the figures at “over 20,000” i.e. TEN TIMES the number given in the Sunday Times.

    Do you not find this discrepancy, erm, just a teensy-eensy bit suspect? Are we turning into Red China, North Korea or Iran?

    And lastly, here’s Reuters, a source I’d trust to some extent:

    “The biggest demonstration ever held during one of his trips took place on Saturday when some 10,000 protesters marched through central London carrying anti-Pope banners.”

  • Seymour Major

    Maggie,

    I have come across newspaper distortion and it is certainly out there but I dont believe that the Times would deliberately cook the figures for the demo. I can not see what motive they would have to underplay them.

    I recommend that next time there is a massive natural disaster (perhaps an earthquake, Tsunami or volcanoe), that you compare the death toll in the newspapers. You will find that the figures are unlikely to be the same.

    Statistically, the media which is the last to report figures is more likely to get them right. The usual reason for that kind of discrepancy is not always the propensity of newspapers to distort information. It is that they often get their information from different sources. Some are more reliable than others and the media is often under pressure to get their story out before more accurate information is available. Guesswork and hearsay goes into the mix. In this case, they probably relied upon the wrong police source.

    As for Reuters – they sometimes get it wrong and they are not always the first media source to obtain the information. There will be another day that some other newspaper gets the figures wrong and the Times gets it right.

    The Sunday Times is still a good newspaperm, Maggie.

  • Nunoftheabove

    Sectarian, homophobic (in a slightly over-protesting fashion if you ask me – interesting, that), racist and and virtually illiterate into the bargain. Are you absolutely sure you’re not a leading member of the Ulster Unionist party Maskey ?

  • Nunoftheabove

    Can you define uber-secularist please ?

  • Procrasnow

    This is a question it is not a statement of fact. Is the pope on the verge of giving britain its first gay saint?

    Clearly Newman and Ambrose were more than just mates?

    Just as David (the slayer of Goliath) and Jonathan The Son of king Saul were more than just mates, needing privacy to go down behind that rock together

    One of the first Christian converts who was not Jewish was an Ethiopian eunuch who clearly wasn’t straight. Oh it beats me that they won’t call a spade a spade when it’s clearly a spade

  • Procrasnow

    In the Republic of Ireland condoms were outlawed. Their sale and manufacture remained illegal there, until the 1970s. Don’t tell us that was not influenced by the catholic church!

  • Procrasnow

    Ref “Yes, the RC Church is largely middle class. I have been saying that for ages.”

    Why is it that the Catholic Church then attracts so many second class people? assuming there are only 3 class that is upper, middle and lower.

  • Nunoftheabove

    Procrasnow

    He’s half right; what he means is that he’s been speaking absolute shite for a lifetime.

  • Big Maggie

    Seymour,

    I agree with much of what you say. But I still hae ma doots about the integrity of the Sunday Times.

    Procrasnow,

    I doubt whether Newman will be Britain’s first gay saint. But you can be sure that the homophobes won’t like it one bit. And there are a lot of them in these islands, even on this Slugger thread :^)

  • Driftwood

    £2.20, noticed that this morning. Digger must need the money. However The Observer is downmarket rubbish now.
    It doesn’t matter how many people attended the protest, or the papal rallies. What struck me, TV gushing aside, was the sheer lack of interest. More people were attending the Lib Dem conference than the visit of an old nazi. And more people were interested in the Battle of Britain commemorative events, or here in NI, the all Ireland final.
    Like a bad smell, Hermann Munster has finally left the UK, hopefully never to return.

  • Alan Maskey

    http://news.google.co.uk/nwshp?hl=en&tab=wn&q=pope%20england%20protest
    Doing a web search, even the New Statesman is forced to laugh at the protesters. They have no support and their protests flopped. Procrasnow’s Newman jibe is also mentioned: that was the best (homophobic attack) Tatchell the draft dodger and professional gay boy could come up with.
    Tatchell is even described as a celebrity. Probably in the gay saunas. Robertson has a mercentary book out attacking, guess who, the Pope.
    These people are parasites. They have shifted criticism of the spread of the HIV virus from the largely white middl;e class homos and fisters who helped spread it in England and the US to Catholic priests in Africa who do not spend their time spreading the condoms the multinational rubber companies churn out.

    All in all a huge victory for Roman and Anglican Catholicism. I gues it is back to the saunas and rubber gloves now for the protesters.

  • Big Maggie

    Alan,

    We got it already, especially after your “riff raff who sludged through London in protest (mar dhea) but to highlighht the glories of fisting and their other pet pervs” at 12.46.

    No need to show us any more of your ugly side, thanks. There’s quite enough hatred in the world as it is.

  • CW

    Spotted this flag belonging to a pilgrim on the London tube returning from the papal vigil in Hyde Park:

    http://dreamingarm.wordpress.com/2010/09/19/popes-uk-visit-causes-much-confusion-in-northern-ireland/

    Just think of all the confusion it would cause in Northern Ireland if someone was seen waving it…

  • Nunoftheabove

    Yes indeed. After all, a gay sauna would be one place you’d not expect to find any catholic clergy at all.

  • Alan Maskey

    Oh yes. That makes the fisting fraternity and their diseases fine.
    http://www.avert.org/uk-transmission-route.htm

    Here are HIV rates in Britain. Please note if you had unprotected sex with any of the riff raff protesters, they most likely are HIV positive.
    Please note if you are a fister or if you protest against Popes when not at your fisting sessions, the British Red Cross will not accept your blood. You are unclean. And that is not the Pope saying it. You are regarded as dirt(y) amd filth(y) by the medical world, condoms or no condoms.

    Of course, you may rightly regard yourself, like most narcissists do, as a victim. Yes, you are a victim, a victim of the propaganda of Peter Tatchell and the other clowns who disrupted the traffic in downtown London for their own silly and selfish reasons.

  • Alan Maskey

    http://www.avert.org/uk-statistics.htm
    http://www.avert.org/uk-statistics.htm

    Men who have sex with men
    By the end of June 2010, 48,748 MSM had been diagnosed with HIV in the UK, including those who have died. The number of new HIV infections among this group has been steadily increasing since 1999 – peaking in 2007 at 2,859. It is likely this trend is due to an increase in HIV testing, although a rise in high risk sexual behaviour has also been suggested as a contributory factor.

    Excerpt from the above site.

  • Rory Carr

    Alan Maskey does seem quite knowledgable about this ‘fisting’ business and strangely obsessed with it as well. I do hope that he is not suffering trauma from an earlier bad experience.

  • Alan Maskey

    http://www.amazon.com/Band-Played-Politics-People-Epidemic/dp/0312241356

    Instead of trying to be witty, read about it here and how the sodomites’ saunas helped to spread HIV. Shilts was one of them and he died of Aids.
    Then we have dogging. Why not find a spot near you Rory? Show your liberal credentials by getting sodomised by a dozen or so homosexual toe rags in some public spot where tax payers would walk their dogs were it not for the blight of these be-condomed (ha ha) creatures.

    If that is not for you, just lie back, think of England and of how these hedonists are so oppressed. You should be good at that.

  • Rory Carr

    You have lost me, Alan. I thought that ‘dogging’ was perhaps just that very activity whereby pet-owners exercised in some “public spot where tax payers would walk their dogs”. Now you tell me that it relates to something else entirely. You do seem to have a fascination for esoteric sexual shenanigans. Just so long as your careful is my only comment. Oh! and do remember to wear a condom.