Court challenge on Ardoyne Parade

Just in, the appeal against the Ardoyne parade has failed and the Parades Commission determination has been upheld…

  • joeCanuck

    Where’s the “more”?

  • billy

    Can anyone find out how many people were charged in the wake of the loyalist riots in september 2005? The police were shot at during those disturbances, weren’t they?

    To date nearly 50 people have been charged over the recent unrest – most of them from the ardoyne area.

    Talk about criminalising a community.

  • BigBoss

    Billy,

    Im glad you still feeling the lack of justice from 5 years ago, but that was then, this is now

    it isn’t about getting them because they are catholic, but because they are little scum bags who are the victims of bad parenting and who pretty much deserved to be caught and brought before the courts,

    I support this all year round, and on all communities…. but if u have evidence from 5 years ago im sure the police would be more than happy to use it!

  • joeCanuck

    Strange isn’t it that people from the area where the rioting took place are the ones who were arrested. And what about the others? What were they doing there?
    The vast decent law abiding people of the Ardoyne community have not been criminalized. They were let down by a small minority who decided that peaceful protest wasn’t enough.
    So stop whinging, Billy.

  • billy

    I agree with you, BB.

    You’d hope the police would agree with us as well, no?

    So why 50 from the nationalist area and only a few from the loyalist area?

    It’s a valid question, no?

  • billy

    Joe,

    Temper, temper!

    I’d love the police to have a consistent policy towards ALL rioters.

    But, given the choice btween loyalists rampaging and nationalist rampaging, you know which side the police will concentrate their follow up efforts on.

    Nowt much changed from the RUC days.

  • BigBoss

    Very simple answer,

    more cameras, more photos, more people willing to identify the people who carried out the rioting….. stupidity of them to put it up on websites,,,brag about it on social-networking sites,

    just in general out-rage at the stupidly of the rioters on a whole…the rest of the summer was going grand until these morons started up

  • joeCanuck

    Billy,

    I disagree; I think a lot has changed. Didn’t you see ANY difference between how the PSNI handled this particular disturbance compared with how the RUC would have handled it 30 years ago?
    I’m not in a bad temper. I have participated in many peaceful protests in the past. I just don’t have any sympathy for rioters of any hue when they are arrested and charged. They will be given every opportunity to explain their actions and to be exonerated if innocent.

  • billy

    Actually, BigBoss, you raise an interesting point regarding EVIDENCE.

    So, we’re expected to believe that the police secured more evidence from the people of ardoyne to press charges than they got from the good, loyal Ulster folk living in areas afflicted by loyalist riots in 2005?

    Or did the police just study their pictures a bit harder in the ardoyne case?

    Go figure.

  • billy

    I’ve sort of already answered your point bigboss.

    ‘More people willing to give evidence’ – in the Ardoyne?

    Well, that doesn’t say much for the law-abiding ulster folk along the springfield road etc when the loyalists rioted in 2005.

    More cameras? I remeber very clear helicopter footage from the 2005 riots.

    50 chared from the ardoyne?

    How many from the sept 2005 riots?

  • Jose Cuervo

    Yor valid question raises a question.
    Several of thise arrested were done so based on information from the nationalist community. This shows support for the new dispensation on policing from nationalists.
    Arrests were not made 5 years ago because loyalists no longer support the police,
    My question is why are the police attacking a community which supports it yet letting a community that doesn’t run roughshod over law-abiding citizens rights. Is it any wonder there is a nationalist backlash?

    To quote Robert Zimmerman ‘The times they are a changin’

  • joeCanuck

    Billy,
    I think you should lodge a complaint with the Police Ombudsman. He might be able to answer your numerical question. Or do you already know the answer?

  • billy

    Good idea, Joe.

    I don’t already know the answer.

    Just very keen to hear.

  • Internationalist

    Wont be the advert NI needs if it kicks off tomorrow night as there will be all the more spotlight on our troubled part of the world. Especially in light of this:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-11103791

  • marlaghman

    never heard but how many neglected children were lifted by social services from the Ardoyne?
    Or are they waiting for Nolan to return?????????

  • alley cat

    How about no orange feet on our street

  • BigBoss

    How do u define “our street”?

  • iluvni

    who pays for these ‘applications for judicial review’?

  • snowstorm

    The judge this evening ruled that the Parades Commission would pay its own costs (which comes from the block grant) while legal aid will pay for the resident(s) application.

    i.e iluvni – you and me pay for them, thats who.

  • Prionsa Eoghann

    They are not cheap, I remember us all contributing the £50K the SNP needed to challenge their undemocratic exclusion from the so called leadership debates.

  • tacapall

    the appeal against the Ardoyne parade has failed and the Parades Commission determination has been upheld…

    Why did you take the important bit out Mick, Heres the real appeal.

    Earlier, a lawyer for the resident said people living along the route felt it was a provocative gesture to allow the marchers to be accompanied by the Pride of Ardoyne flute band, which he claimed had controversial links with the UVF.

    Heres what you should be posting about. –

    “I’m appalled that the Parades Commission has prohibited the band from playing music; they’ve also prohibited the band from carrying a bannerette of former band members”, Mr McCausland added.

  • Im getting a real feeling of de ja vue here…

  • joeCanuck

    Deja vu.

    Joe the pedant 🙂

  • joe the pedant

    I know! I checked the ‘e’ in ‘vue” as soon as I could see the print, (I wish there was a preview option) and of course when I did I saw my mistake.

    Sorry.

  • It is galling that there is still not a journalist in NI who is willing to pursue Nelson and expose his nauseating hypocriscy.

  • Joe whether U like it or not the vast majority of Ardoyne residents don’t want Orange, Black (bigots) parading through their area….

    Those involved in the Twelfth protest were not the ones rioting – Fact!

    The people of Ardoyne have been consistently let down by Politicans, Clergy, Loyal Orders, Parades Commission and of course the RUC/PSNI.

    Loyalists had a four-day protest outside ASDA on the Shore Road…..No-one charged!

    Nationalists had a four-hour protest on the Crumlin Road….20 charged!

    An Ireland of equals where some are more equal than others!

  • diarmaid

    i remember those 05 riots especially the footage of loyalists draggging a nurse from her car.
    did they ever get charged????

    ruc psni sure does it really matter?

    until it is recognised that while this northern ireland exists with gb funding it is ultimately destioned to fail on its own. it is not a country as the tourist board tries to protray.
    it is a statelite state completly relient on gb and roi for funding.
    there is only one resonable solution…

  • diarmaid

    in fairness the culture minister has rightly designated creationism as the only history the ulster museum can propagate !!!

  • joeCanuck

    AR,
    I have been consistent over time in my support for peaceful protest. I don’t believe that any group should be marching where they are clearly not welcome. I can’t do anything about it; the Parades Commission and the Courts are where it needs to be settled.

  • Mark McGregor

    As you note it was a very diferent situation back in 2005:

    The RUC arrived in their donkey driven carts with only sticks and dry cow-pats, a prayer and guns to challenge rioters….

  • sliabhdubh

    Why dont the orange order just be satisfied with one major parade a year,alternate it to different counties,likewise the black instution.They have a parade every or nearly every month of our pitable summer.If this is not provaction,at least the car taxing drivers should complain,about traffic,jams.No organazition would get away with this amount of jackboot marching,well not unless King Billy is compared to Hilter.Its unnessary,and to say the least the orange order does more to deter tourists,than republicans ever did.Dont forget 1969 only happened because some of our citizens wanted parity,which was denied.

  • McCarthy Óg

    The Orange Parades are great for tourism I think you’ll find. As in, they encourage tourism away from the area as thousands of unionists and nationalists alike flee the six counties to avoid the mess, hassle and violence that the summer months bring each year.

  • GARC Responds to the Unwelcome Black Preceptory March.

    Earlier this week, G.A.R.C. demanded the Black Preceptory and Pride of Ardoyne Flute Band reroute their unwelcome march away from Greater Ardoyne. We also said, if they refused our Collective would peacefully block the Crumlin Road and prevent today’s sectarian parade.

    Since G.A.R.C.’s formation, we have articulated the wishes of the vast majority of Greater Ardoyne residents, outlined a viable alternative route, and sought meaningful dialogue to address unwanted parades.

    Therefore, in a bid to boost dialogue the Greater Ardoyne Residents Collective has collectively agreed to SUSPEND our planned protest, at the eleventh hour.

    G.A.R.C. urge the Loyal Orders to use the months ahead to properly engage with local residents and help resolve contentious marches through Greater Ardoyne.

    Our door is open….

    http://greaterardoyneresidentscollective.blogspot.com/2010/08/garc-responds-to-unwelcome-black.html

  • Reader

    Jose Cuevo: My question is why are the police attacking a community which supports it yet letting a community that doesn’t run roughshod over law-abiding citizens rights.
    How are the police ‘attacking a community’ by arresting the rioters that were identified to them *by* the community? That’s the whole point, isn’t it?
    After all, a community that doesn’t reject its rioters gives them a free pass for next time.

  • iluvni

    Too early on a Saturday morning to get your rent a mob out on the road, more like.

  • Cynic

    And so is the comment section on your site

    And the first comment is:

    ” Is it any wonder you called of the sit down protest….only 10 turned up and half of them were DRUNK”

    More of a fall down than sit down perhaps? So what happened to the ‘totally justified outpouring of genuine community anger’ etc etc etc

    I have no doubt Ardoyne people don’t want the parade but they are also pissed off with all the ‘protesters’ and ‘community activists’ actions.

    PS when 7you are so unrepresentative of everyone why should the OO negotiate with you. You have no power and no authority to deliver any agreement

  • joeCanuck Wrote: “They will be given every opportunity to explain their actions and to be exonerated if innocent.”

    Not true if a prosecution collapses a civil servant at the NIO can intervene and confer guilt were the Courts cannot.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Since G.A.R.C.’s formation, we have articulated the wishes of the vast majority of Greater Ardoyne residents,

    How many votes did you win in the last election ?

  • lamhdearg

    A R please spend the next 7 months getting a grip on your brit/prod hateing, if we are to move on in this country you and your dissident chums will have to except the fact that around 800 thousand people in the north of ireland are not irish nats and will not become irish nats through force.

  • Jose Cuervo

    Reader
    I feel by leaving out the last part of my submission you are misrepresenting my view. My point being that if loyalists go unpunished for rioting when a parades commission deliberation went against them is it not reasonable to expect similair behaviour from nationalists? After all for years the law-abiding loyalist community was law abiding because it got everything its own way, and once a semblance of equality entered the arena they weren’t too long in rejecting the forces of law and order.
    The nationalist people are attempting to embrace the new dispensation yet are being prevented from doing so by coat trailing exercises by sectarian organisations. The attitude of the loyal orders needs to change, just as nationalist attitudes to the police have changed.

  • West Sider

    Also, I hear that many of the rioting lumpenproletariat are now feeling the heat and dealing with something many of them never thought about before i.e. consequences.

    I know someone on the ground who works with the community in Ardoyne who told me that many of them are perplexed that they are facing arrest and possible imprisonment.

    That person was there this morning said the same: a apaltry few turned up and the majority of them were pissed from the night before.

    Expect to see this reported in the media.

    Martin is becoming a laughing stock in Ardoyne among the gentle folk, and among the not so gentle he is regarded as a total – well, I’ll not use such language on Slugger, but the word does rhyme with the thing ships normally drop when they stop.

  • Im pleased GARC decided to allow the parade to pass. It is a sign of their maturity that they felt able to do so. If only the ‘opposition’ were as mature.

  • Cynic

    “the word does rhyme with the thing ships normally drop when they stop.”

    stowaways?

  • Cynic

    “whether U like it or not the vast majority of Ardoyne residents don’t want Orange, Black (bigots) parading through their area….”

    …. so who gave the area to them? Its shared space

  • Cynic

    Perhaps the new PSNI has more time now given the defeat of PIRA and the much reduced levels of violence

  • Cynic

    Shockproof. When those big cameras were first put up wasnt SF out with JCBs and angle grinders trying to cut them down. Now they want police to use them to gather more an more evidence.

  • West Sider

    Cynic, you’re a man of the world, I’m sure you can do better than that.

    Does anyone else think that this past few months have seen the dissies blow their load on the parades and prisons front?

    They are really HATED in nationalist areas. And before anyone posts about the St James area and ONH, the truth about that little staged farce is starting to filter through.

    And as another aside, I’m told that the egos involved in the dissie camp are starting to cause another bout of friction which is being inflamed by paranoia about who is what and with who.

  • Rory Carr

    Christy Walsh, you do yourself no favours by repeating this ridiculous untruth: “… if a prosecution collapses a civil servant at the NIO can intervene and confer guilt were the Courts cannot.” A civil servant can do no such thing (and good bloody job too otherwise none of us could sleep easy!).

    What has happened in your case is that you are being denied compensation because it has been determined (alright, by a civil servant) that your innocence has not been clearly established. You have the right of appeal.

    Barry George, wrongfully convicted of the murder of Jill Dando after a police forensic “fit-up”, was like you initially denied compensation but has won the right to apply only a few days ago following an appeal to the High Court. Well done – the man was innocent – a jury at retrial declared him so.

    More details here: http://bbc.in/coIhdf

    Simon Jenkins, on the oter hand, who was initially found guilty of murdering his stepdaughter and later, after two retrials where a hung jury resulted at both, was set free, has been refused compensation on the basis that his innocence has not been fully established – as indeed it has not – the murdering bastard got away with it and his failure to gain compensation is but one small consolation.
    More details here: http://bit.ly/cS6WwR

    So please, by all means appeal and I wish you well, but please do not attempt to confuse us with this nonsense that a bureaucrat was able to confer guilt on a man that a court had declared innocent – that simply did not happen.

  • Residents groups don’t need votes chara or is that what happens in West Belfast?

    Maybe in the West, Residents Groups stand in Stromont Elections?

  • Lamhdhearg, thanks for ordering me what to do for the next seven months chara, your ‘advice’ is much appreciated, NOT!

  • Pippakin, it was inevitable GARC would politically mature and limit its protests etc….

    However, they are more than determined to stop bigots marching through Ardoyne.

  • ‘I know someone on the ground who works with the community in Ardoyne…’

    A typical post from one of the Broy Harriers or should I say Spike’s Harriers who are now being drafted into Ardoyne to ‘Police’ residents protests! Who said about ‘bussing in crowds’? Gerry Kelly methinks!

    Martin is not GARC nor is GARC Martin chara….The ordinary people of Ardoyne (Not the highly-paid PSF workers) know Martin and what he has done for Ardoyne his whole adult life!

    Unlike those who should know better than to attempt to intimidate genuine residents….As it’ll bite back come election time!

    Just stay in West Belfast as U and your harriers are not welcome in Ardoyne…If this morning’s presence was anything to go by having Brendy Mac present said it all – PSF are now using career criminals to further their warped sense of Republicanism!

  • A E

    I hope GARC do protest at any unwanted parades. I also hope all future protests are peaceful.

  • No chara, it’s Broy Harriers and Felon-Setting, not to mention Lies, Smears and downright Slurs!

  • tacapall

    Who staged that little scenario in St James only Sinn Fein who have access to their media outlet the Andytown news, seems CRJ funding maybe under threat with no ( Sinn Fein view) of anti social behaviour going on. Maybe the Sinners will grow a pair of them and go down to the Lower falls, Poleglass, Twinbrook, Turf lodge, New Lodge, Whiterock and especially Gerry’s jewel in the crown Ballymurphy where people are stabbed to death, people burned out of their homes or intimated out of them, but that dosen’t seem to warrant front page scoops by the Andytown news, why is that.

  • lamhdearg

    A R as i wrote “please spend” i would say that is me pleading with you not ordering, todays parade past off peacefully and if that was the norm there would be no need for the police to be there in such numbers and there would be no hassle for ardoyne people from both sides of the divide.

  • tacapall

    Good question. I suspect you already know the answer…

  • LD, why feel the need to ‘plead’ with me?

    If U and others wish to see peaceful parades then why do the Loyal Orders not meet with GARC and listen to the concerns and worries of Greater Ardoyne residents? After all, having Flute Bands who commemorate the Loyalist killer of an Ardoyne resident was a gross insult to the McKenna Clan and of course local people. Would Shankill residents accept a Republican band who openly commemorate Bootsy Begley marching past the exact spot of Shankill victims, of course they wouldn’t…..and why should they? Therefore, we shouldn’t accept or even be asked to accept such a band!

    Regards the huge numbers of ‘Police’ present in Ardoyne every time there’s one of these parades…..

    This only creates and adds to the tensions which already exist, hence why dialogue is needed to address peoples’ genuine concerns!

    GARC have said their door is open, let’s see how long it takes for the Loyal Orders and/or the North and West Belfast Parades Forum to take them up on the offer?

  • Cynic

    It depends on whose doing the burning and stabbing innit

  • Cynic

    Who are Garc. They might as well negotiate with a tramp lying in a door way in the City centre. You have no power and no mandate. A bottle of Buckfast isnt a mandate

  • Cynic

    ” many of them are perplexed that they are facing arrest and possible imprisonment”

    that’s what a hangover does for you

  • Framer

    Anyone got a map or photograph of the contentious part of the parade?

  • lamhdearg

    A R as you know the north and west belfast parades forum have had meetings with ardoynes irish nationalist residents groups and they reached an accommodation, your group the GARC where formed from people who as anti good friday Dissidents do not want accommadation with non irish nationalists, your group and its chums want all brits out of ulster, in your previeos posts you have stated the there is “no point in talking as there can be no compromise” what has changed GARC policy or was the no compromise statement a slipup on your part.

  • A.N.Other

    It’s time that the people of Ardoyne moved on from being the model village of downtrodden Republicanism, and kicked out the Pied Piper village idiots, who are leading their children towards criminal records and no future.

  • U must raise each morning with hatred in your heart as U can C you’ve no soul whatsoever.

    Everyone in Ardoyne know who GARC are and no amount of unfounded smears and vilification from PSF and their friends in the Woodvale will convince them otherwise!

    Seems you’ve had your fair share of buckfast in your day chara? Thankfully, I’m a tee-totaller myself as people such as yourself can be seen from a mile away!

  • Would U mind explaining to everyone else the accomodation the N&W Belfast Forum and Ardoyne residents reached and when? Because, I can’t recall such a compromise and if there was such a deal why then do CARA and PSF continue to protest against sectarian marches chara?

    As 4 GARC I’m surprised a Loyalist such as U would believe PSF’s outrageous claims against GARC…..Have U no initative of your own?

    GARC are local Ardoyne residents who primarily deal with the parading issue. As to some members political affiliations must be similar to those UVF and UDA Commanders who also members of the N&W Parades Forum? GARC have often stated they are Residents NOT Dissidents!

  • The only pied-piper leading people astray in an Ardoyne context are PSF who attempt to manipulate the CARA residents group!

    Why not ask CARA, just how many PSF members are involved with their group?

  • Nunoftheabove

    billy

    Maybe it speaks highly of the people there who co-operate with the cops to get these riotrs prosecuted because they are sick of this violent bullshit, whatever about their reaonable concerns about the OO tramping through the district when the peope there hate them, with some good reason.

  • Nunoftheabove

    I do wish people would stop referring to ‘their’ areas. Not least when a lot of the housing there isn’t even private housing, let alone owner-occupied.

    That said, they should be allowed to stand outside their dwellings and yell and holler all they like as the sectarian lumpenproletariat who insist on annoying their fellow citizens wobbles tunelessly up the street dressed like berks en route to listen to sinister, dreary hate-filled supremacist christian garbage in a field. If they were forced to go listen to that without the triumphalist musical interlude on the way there and home again a good many of them would be protesting about that themselves.

  • lamhdearg

    A R deal reached in june 08 allow not liked by all on the ardoyne irish nats side as stoning of parades continued, as for me believing gerry and co, no i get my views of garc (and you) from reading your posts on slugger and your web site, ? would you like to see the power sharing at stormont fail or suceed. Will you address this please in your previous posts you have stated the there is “no point in talking as there can be no compromise” what has changed GARC policy or was the no compromise statement a slipup on your part.

  • billy

    The PSNI’s handling of the Ardoyne situation is similar to their handling of the racist campaign against the Romanians in south Belfast a while back.

    Rather than actually do their job and defend innocent Romanians who had every right to live in South Belfast, the PSNI seemed make it clear that the migrants best option would be to leave – in other words, do what the racists wanted. Well, rather than actually having to gather evidence and deal with the Billy Boys, throwing a few Romanians on a place is the much cheaper option, eh?

    Similarly, in the Ardoyne, the PSNI seem determined to make protesting against the annual triumphalist, coat-trailing display of sectarianism a guaranteed route to the courts for the young of the area. 50 people charged already. Yes, 50. That’s 50 who’ll think twice about giving the police a headache in terms of policing a hate-fest, eh?

    In all the years of the Drumcree riots I doubt they ever lifted 50 in total.

  • lamhdearg

    Billy, silly billy more like, there was someone arrested during the roma peoples troubles he was the son of an sdlp man please see http://www.politics.ie/northern…/82186-belfast-roma-attacks-new-angle.html – Cached, also most plastic baton rounds fired in one night portadown 1986 target loyalist rioters, whiterock 2005 arrests and jailings. the reason so many rioters involved in the trouble at ardoyne shops is the good people of ardoyne are turning them in to the police as they want to move on to a better life.

  • Lamh Dearg Abu

    Not surprising with the ruling. Typical.
    The sooner the parades march in areas where they are supported and wanted- the better.
    And as far the comment above regarding Drumcree, the loyalist R.U.C were never going to outright offend their own people.

  • anne warren

    . . .a woman in her late 50s was punched and thrown to the ground by marchers as she tried to cross a parade in Ballymena on Saturday.

    The police have confirmed that they are investigating a report that a woman was assaulted during Saturday’s parade
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-11125605

  • lamhdearg

    Anne if this is true those responsible should be charged with assault, it it is not then the s/f lady should be charged with incitement, in any case the truth should not be hard to assertain i would say there would have been quite a number of witness, reading the bbc report one thing struck me, how the ladys attacters knew she was a catholic.

  • anne warren

    Agree the truth should be ascertained and charges pressed if waranted.

    However I don’t think Catholicsm or any other religion comes into it. Crossing the parade seemed to be the offence.
    I have heard other reports of this happening with Orange parades – past and present.
    IOrange orders seem to feel only they have the right to use the Queen’s Highway when they are using it.
    Is this true?
    Has anyone ever challenged this assumption?