Tom Elliott on Bloody Sunday, Saville and Martin McGuinness

Maybe I am biased living in Fermanagh but I have always regarded Fermanagh’s two unionist MLA (no disrespect to Maurice Morrow, he is more South Tyrone based) as amongst their respective parties’ serious talents. Tom Elliott has a piece in the News Letter on the Saville Enquiry and Bloody Sunday which is very interesting:

The publication of Saville will bring us back to a dark year in our history. The bloodiest year of the Troubles was 1972, when 497 people
lost their lives.

The Saville report will consider one event in that year – Bloody Sunday.

It is important that we recognise the pain and grief of those who lost loved ones on that day.

It is also important to remember that the events of January 30, 1972 did not take place in a vacuum. On the January 27 1972, two young
RUC officers – one a Roman Catholic, the other a Protestant – were murdered by the IRA in Londonderry.

Their families grieved no less than those who lost their lives on Bloody Sunday.

Elliott accepts the need for the security forces to be accountable:

Those of us who served in the security forces are prepared to recognise that during three decades of terrorism – as now – that it is right that we are accountable for our actions and answerable to the rule of law.

But, that is but a part of a wider story. Our society owes a debt of gratitude to the men and women who served in the Army, the UDR and the RUC.

He also rounds on Martin McGuinness’s role both during 1972 and the enquiry:

One of the defining moments of the Saville Inquiry was the now deputy First Minister’s refusal to answer questions put to him regarding his
actions on that day.

This sums up Saville.

While the inquiry examined – in minute detail – the actions of the security forces, the actions of the deputy first minister go without scrutiny. By his own admission, Martin McGuinness was the IRA “adjutant” in Londonderry on January 30, 1972.

What, then, does he know of the murders of Constables Gilgunn and Montgomery on January 27, 1972?

,

  • Argosjohn

    Whitewash. Bloody Sunday was pre meditated mass murder. It was done to side track NICRA

  • Alias

    “It is difficult to see how Saville will contribute to reconciliation and building a shared future.”

    That isn’t within the scope of the Tribunal’s terms of reference, so that ‘peace processing’ agenda is as irrelevant as the rest of his whataboutery.

    In regard to Mr McGuinness, the same FRU agent who revealed ‘Stakefnife’ to be Freddie Scappaticci also claimed that McGuinness is an MI6 tout known to his handlers as J118 and there is plenty of evidence to show that Mr McGuinness is indeed a protected species (not to mention perjuring himself before Saville without legal sanction), so even if the focus is to shift from the State as the instigator it instantly shifts back again via the role of an agent provocateur.

    NI is now so morally and politically corrupted that there will be no legal consequences for a State that sanctioned murder, with nobody expecting anything more consequential than blame being removed from the dead (wherein Widgery placed in) and pinned to a few rogue soldiers who will doubtless be held to have done more than “bordered on the reckless” but who will no suffer any legal consequences for that. How could they? The contrast with members of state-sponsored sectarian murder gang members in Stormont and soldiers in the dock would make that outcome impossible.

  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    Turgon,

    All very predictable so far, Unionists say a few bad eggs and give it some whataboutery Nationalists say murderous British. I wonder if anyone will break ranks on either side?

  • Drumlin Rock

    I think we are arriving at an “all or nothing” moment, as Tom Elliott says everyone who lost loved ones deserves answers, not the one sided version we get from Republicans. Persuming the names of the vicitms of Bloody Sunday are cleared then a full apology should be given by Cameron, at the same time Martin & Gerry should also offer an apology to the IRA’s innocent victims, then decide how much do we want to dig into the past.

  • Drumlin Rock,
    I agree but the problem lies in your comment “apology to the IRA’s innocent victims.” I and I strongly suspect you regard all the IRA’s victims as innocent. The problem is that the IRA regard many of them as not innocent but guilty: these include the likes of Jean McConville and of course all the police officers, soldiers etc. murdered. Furthermore the IRA will not even admit that they carried out some of the murderers eg Kingsmill, Darkley, Claudy etc.

  • jim

    martin n gerry should also offer an apology to the ira,s innocent victims…………………….surely all the victims of these filth were innocent

  • Peter Fyfe

    How many deaths can be excused by the killing of two RUC men on the thursday?

  • Peter Fyfe

    The IRA already apologised for the deaths of non-combatants so I would be surprised if DR overlooked this so I assumed he was referring to those he considered innocent and the IRA considered as combatants. Were the Bloody Sunday victims combatants in any sense of the word to you? If not they were not similar circumstances so linking the issue is just an attempt to deflect responsibility. I think you know that already though.

  • Drumlin Rock

    I should clarify I do regrade virtually all IRA victims as innocent, (only exceptions I can think of is killing another terrorist in self-defence), however I know M&G aren’t going to say that, so the most obvious brutalities should be the starting point, and if they want to keep digging into so called collusion and shoot to kill etc. then they must be prepared to face the scrutiny for their other actions as well.

  • halfer

    …what exactly is interesting about the original article?

  • Drumlin Rock

    Peter there is also the deliberate targeting of former members, civilian contractors, politicians, etc. which in reality were thinly disguised sectarian attacks.
    Tony Blair already apologised for Bloody Sunday too, before the inquiry, so for Gerry & Marty to repeat their original apology, and making it personal for each victim maybe that would help.

  • sam

    The saville inquiry is a foretaste of what we can expect from a truth commission. The security forces will be in the dock having to justify every action they took in minute detail while the IRA will refuse to answer questions or lie their heads off as usual.

  • Western Approaches

    I don’t see anything striking in this article that would cause me not to anticiapte Tuesday’s report any differently.

    I suspect the British Army will be castigated for not listening to RUC advice in Derry. Although I doubt British commanders will ever face justice for their decisions to send armed combat troops into a civil rights march ostensibly to arrest trouble makers.

  • “The contrast with members of state-sponsored sectarian murder gang members in Stormont and soldiers in the dock would make that outcome impossible” …… Alias says: 13 June 2010 at 9:49 pm

    Alias,

    And what do you imagine happens to tens and/or hundreds of millions of public funding whenever such gang members control the levers which dish it out without any judicious executive oversight?

    And if now, in public leadership positions, what policies and grand design ideas are they pimping to grow the private sector or are they only able to whinge and moan and forever milk the public sector and screw the masses for ever more of their reward for being industrious and innovative ie acting as a parasitic blight of society rather than demonstrating anything which would warrant support and encouragement.

  • And Alias, with Uncle Sam providing funds and weapons to cowboy terrorists, it is surely more likely to be CIA destabilisation rather than MI5 or MI6 shenanigans. Which would then make Martin and Gerry foreign agent stoolies/puppets. ……. just Ye Olde Snake Oil Salesmen or boot leggers who would also be selling Firewater to the Injuns type……. which is much more mercenary than nationalistic.

  • bigchiefally

    If the IRA commanders and volunteers have been allowed to walk free, and in some cases into senior government positions, without acknowledging or apologising for their crimes, why should Army commanders be any different?

  • Or if that doesn’t suit, how about a Satanic Underground Vatican op …… Opus Sinister Hominis masquerading as an Opus Dei. It certainly has a lot of dirty little secrets which render it a Lush Honey Pot .

  • Neil

    Bigchiefally,

    You are aware that many IRA members were pursued by the forces of the state (who were themselves involved in murder we now know) and many of those IRA men went to prison and served lengthy sentences?

    So presumably, if we’re going down the road of equitable treatment between the terrorists and the government (which would be acceptable to most Republicans as they see the two as being more the same than different), the forces of the state should now be pursued and punished in much the same fashion as Republicans have been for 30 years?

    That only leaves the ‘acknowledging or apologising for their crimes’ part of your post, which is fine. As the IRA did neither, I’m sure any ex-paras that are mentioned in this report will not be apologising either. But as there may now be information in the public domain regarding the crimes of the paras on Bloody Sunday, it should be up to the families of the innocents murdered to pursue justice.

    If anyone else has information regarding the deaths of one of their families, they too should be free to pursue justice no matter what the perpetrators role in the state either then or now. Although I suspect most of the serviceable info regarding Republicans has been put to use already, having them locked up. Now it’s just the forces of the state who have to face the music, as they never have done before.

  • madraj55

    Bigchiefally. The only clonclusion that can reasonably be read from your post is that the British govt should be held to the same standard of conduct as the IRA etc. That’s plain whataboutery and betrays bigotry, You’re not gregory Campbell by any chance?

  • draugfea

    The moan of the republican vuvuzela over bloody sunday is already mounting in pitch and intensity in the run up to the publication of the saville report. It is being countered from the other side of the pitch by a vuvuzelan blast of unionist indignation.

    Will there be any positive response to this cacophony? I very much doubt it. Most certainly the ‘truth’ will not be unleashed; bile, whataboutery, double standards, revenge, sectarianism, hate and bitterness will however be revived and stride freely everywhere.

  • bigchiefally

    Neil – I appreciate that many terrorists did end up in jail but for you argument about equitable treatement to have merit you have to accept that all IRA members who committed crimes were caught, and indeed once caught served their full sentence? That patently didnt happen. Plenty of IRA men and other paramilitaries got off entirely or had drastically reduced sentences. We, the people of NI, essentially decided to write off paramilitary crimes and draw a line under them without any kind of remorse or full disclosure of who did what by voting yes in the GFA. That was a difficult decision for many people of all political hues. My issue with the Saville enquiry, leaving aside the cost, is that we are reopening the past but only looking at the crimes committed on the state side. I would have loved a SA style truth and reconciliation commision focusing on loyalist, republican and state. Sadly we didnt get it, but as we didnt we do need to move on, and looking back on one sides crimes and not all the others isn’t fair or right.

    Madraj55 – I suppose there is a bit of whataboutery in my post, but I think the reasoning behind it is pretty logical. We either need to move on and draw a line under the past, or focus on all sides crimes. I have no idea where my bigotry fits into any of this.
    You are correct, I am holding the British government to the same level of standard as those in our own government. How is this bigotry?

    I am not saying that the relatives of those who died on Bloody Sunday have any less reason to feel loss or that they have any less rights to justice or the truth than those whose relatives were killed by paramilitaries – but we have sacrificed the paramilitary victims rights as an effort to draw a line under the past and move on.

  • kevin moran

    The only clonclusion (sic) that can be reasonably read from your post is the you do not hold to the republican position that the ira were the national army fighting to uphold the irish people’s mandate of 1918 therefore making the ‘conflict’ of the past 40 years a war?

    So the unionists were correct all along and it was a terrorist campaign.

    You’re obviously not Martin McGuinness.

  • Mainland Ulsterman

    Bigchiefally:
    I couldn’t agree more. The prisoner releases in 1998 were probably the main thing that limited unionist approval of the GFA at the time – but we could buy it as part of “moving on”. No wonder the GFA lost the goodwill of a lot of unionists after that, when Republicans went back into the Troubles piecemeal to play up incidents where the security forces were at fault, without reference to the 60 per cent of killings Republicans did. It’s that kind of approach that is still hindering real reconciliation. The patent unfairness of it makes unionists reluctant to be generous in return about wrongs nationalists have suffered, like Bloody Sunday.

    However, we unionists need to be the grown-ups here, to get the ball rolling. There is nothing to lose in acknowledging where unionists and loyalists have gone wrong in the past – the arrogance, the sectarianism and frequently the brutality that we have tolerated in our name. Perhaps we can embarrass Republicans with kindness and shame them into reciprocating – that long-awaited admission of the wrongness of what they did to us, to ‘their own’ people and to the British people as a whole … Come on, it’s never too late to say sorry!

  • madraj55

    KM I don’t support the Provos campaign, but neither do I accept Unionist politicians bona fides in calling this terrorist, since in most cases they are pandering to bigotry among their supporters. Their complaints about the cost are simply hiding their bigotry. After 40 years they still don’t accept Nationalist FM never mind a Sinn Fein FM, becqause for them NI should be ruled by protestants indefinitely regardless of demographics. In other words they would gerry mmander it again tomorrow if they thought the British would stand for it. Some democrats.

  • foyle observer

    Oh how i wish all the Unionists on here who insist on spitting out this ‘Saville was a waste of time, what about all the victims of the IRA’.

    So now you are putting the IRA on par with your dear beloved Army are you? They should be seen as equals, should they?

    Why don’t you just come out and say it, you bigotted bastards, you have no regard for the lives of those brutally murdered on Bloody Sunday because they were all Catholic. Come on, lets hear it.

  • madraj55

    Bigchiefally. In the phrase ‘betrays bigotry’ I should have made it clearer that I wasn’t specifically citing you, but some unionist politicians. I phrased it badly. A lot of the opposition to a new inquiry from the Unionist establishment is not simply about the mechanism, or the cost in certain DUP figures especially, but really is concerned with avoiding concessions to nats [or even the appearance of this]of any kind in NI in which they still hanker after the good old days before 68 when the ‘croppies lay down’ and put up with everything or left. ,

  • Neil

    No wonder the GFA lost the goodwill of a lot of unionists after that, when Republicans went back into the Troubles piecemeal to play up incidents where the security forces were at fault, without reference to the 60 per cent of killings Republicans did.

    Two poionts I’d say in response, one is that, using the Bloody Sunday victims as an example, these people were innocent but branded guilty, their names were tarnished and it’s understandable for the families of those killed to want to clear those names.

    Second, the army and the security forces denied any and all wrongdoing here. For years we had Adams telling people that the army and the police were killing people, and assisting in the killing of people. The army and the police have denied this from day dot, and have yet to accept any portion of the blame. Only with the arrival of the police ombudsman and the results of independent enquiries such as the Saville enquiry did the police and now the army be forced to accept that they did kill people unlawfully.

    You have pointed out what you perceive as the problems for your community in all this, let me do the same from mine. For 30 years the police and army got away with cold blooded murder, and the cover ups were helped along by the government and those security forces involved. I can recall withing the past five years having a discussion on this site where still some Unionists insisted that the RUC never once did anything wrong.

    It’s only been a short while where the public have been unequivocally told that the forces of the state engaged in these activities. As I said above, every RA man that the cops could lock up, bar agents, the cops have locked up. The equitable treatment means that if there’s evidence that the state committed murder then that should be followed up too. It’s said above that not every IRA man was caught and jailed. That’s true. But very, very, very few security force murderers have been charged.

    So it’s all well and good saying we’ll draw a line under it now, now that Republicans have served thousands of years in prison and the security forces have served next to none. Let’s forget about it now that the focus is on us, instead of where it has been for decades.

    Equirable treatment would be going after and convicting murderers wherever they be found. Not saying that as every convictable IRA man has now been jailed and released, we’ll just forget the whole thing while the antics of the security forces are only now becoming clearer to the public. Now for the first time it’s not Gerry Adams telling you this happened, it’s the English establishment saying it.

  • kevin moran

    Unionists are not the ones equating the ira with the army that is the republicans’ call. Do they not refer to what happened in Northern Ireland as a ‘war’, are their convicted criminals not referred to as POWs?

    Unionists can lament the deaths no matter what church, if any, they attended when living. However they do have difficulties with the partisan reflections on the past. Saville has made a hierarchy of victims manifest.

    Perhaps whilst observing the Foyle you have a view on the victimhood of the ‘catholic’ police officer murdered in the Bogside three days before Bloody Sunday? Was his religion diluted by the uniform he wore?

  • kevin moran

    Good to see that someone has had the balls to cut to the quick of the matter. Neil’s honesty should be applauded. For republicans Saville has always been about revenge.

    They have not moved on you know.

    The revision of history has been a shinner priority post 1998. The army and police have to be placed on par with the ira’s sectarian savagery.

    Of course the stats don’t add up but lets put that to one side. How, with the thousands upon thousands of armed police and soldiers running amok, did any cafflicks survive?

  • Battle of the Bogside

    The simple fact is that while IRA men were released, they still have convictions. They have trouble getting jobs. They are refused because of security vetting. This should also apply to terrorist Paratroopers. If it good enough for Kevin Crilly to be pursued by the PPS for the murder of terrorist Nairac, then it is good enough for the terrorist Paratroopers to be pursued by the PPS.

  • bigchiefally

    I’m sorry Neil, I just really dont get it.

    In my view either the troubles was a war in which republican, state and loyalist elements did horrible things which we now ignore and move on from, or, it was a grubby set of criminal acts in which case we should re-imprison all released convicts and go after the likes of the Army commanders if we find they committed similarly criminal murders.

    Your point seems to be neither. Please correct me if I am wrong but it seems to be that you are stating that some of the loyalists and republicans did time, but the state guys never did any time, so it is only fair we go after them now. Is that right? I can see some valid logic in this but supposing we were to prosecute the state actors in this, do they get sentences that were similarly commuted as the loyalists and republicans were post GFA? Say, 6 years for a life term, a la Sean Kelly? Or 12 years for multiple life a la Michael Stone? Would would be fair? In this scenario what would you say to a relative of a victim of Kelly or Stone when they asked “Why are they out of jail?”.

  • Battle of the Bogside

    police officer murdered in the Bogside three days before Bloody Sunday

    The same terrorist police force that ran amok in the Bogside three years before in the ‘Battle of the Bogside”, before being defeated by bricks and bottles?

    The same police force that was up to its eyes in terrorist activity?

    The small amount of terrorist soldiers sent to prison for their terrorist activities is insufficient and stinks to high heaven.

    Let us not forget about the recent report from the HET. More terrorism from the British army in Derry. I could list a few more but would be here all week.

  • bigchiefally

    foyle – do you think it was OK to let loyalist and republican prisoners, say those who committed the Greysteel trick or treat murders out of jail as a result of the GFA?

  • bigchiefally

    Battle – I dont doubt you could, indeed couldnt we just do nothing all day but post atrocities that all sides carried out? Did the IRA murder innocent people? YES. Did the UVF murder innocent people? YES. Did the state and its agents murder innocent people? YES.

    What exactly is your point? Mine is that either we reopen all old cases and lock up all those released after the GFA or we move on.

  • Neil

    Revenge? Wha? No no, you’ve misread me. Now I know it would be suitable for many here to continue to ignore the fact that the state murdered people in my community, and it would suit others even more to continue to attack the victims of Bloody Sunday as having brought it on themselves by running around with guns and blast bombs, but unfortunately that’s not good enough, nor is it true. Lies spread by the mod to keep the murdering soldiers out of jail.

    What I said, clearly enough, was that Saville’s about clearing the victims names. Second, this is now the time when the army and police are being forced to accept they murdered people. About 10% of the total death toll here, and as some people foolishly point out, the forces of the state are usually held to a higher account than terrorists.

    If you accept the police and army acted like terrorists, and you accept that totally innocent civilians, murdered by the state deserve to clear their names then we are in total agreement. Revenge doesn’t come into it. What does come into it is the fact that all killers except the police and army killers have been punished for their crimes. Now that some portion of blame is being sent the way of the state we’re supposed to drop the issue and forget about all the unpunished crimes committed by the state.

    All those who were innocent victims of the state deserve to have their names cleared. All those who there is evidence for charges to be laid against should be charged. Equitable treatment see. The problem for some is that on the Republican side all those who could be sent to jail, were sent to jail and there’s next to no one left to punish. However no soldiers or police have been punished for the murders they committed (they denied having murdered anyone but we now know that’s a lie), so your answer is ‘now is the time to forget about it’. As in now they’ve all been punished and none of ours have been punished, now we should forget about it. Before any soldiers or cops get sent down for murdering folk.

    It’s not revenge, it’s applying the same law across the board regardless of the career of the muderer. Would have thought that perfectly reasonable but some seem to need it so that if you’re a cop or soldier you can kill people and get off scot free, no questions asked. Fuck that.

  • Big Maggie

    God oh, so much hatred being displayed on this thread!

    Makes you wonder: did the hatred cause the Troubles or did the Troubles give rise to the hatred?

    I don’t see peace and reconciliation anytime soon. Just a mandatory coalition of people who hate each other’s guts. Chastening.

  • Battle of the Bogside

    The Saville inquiry was set up to supersede the white wash and lies of Widgery and co.

    All the Brits had to do was tell the truth, they murdered innocence. They did not and there you have it. The money should now be taken from the Paratroop regiment budget and given to the public purse. It is that simple!

  • Neil

    Bigcheifally,

    Your point seems to be neither. Please correct me if I am wrong but it seems to be that you are stating that some of the loyalists and republicans did time, but the state guys never did any time, so it is only fair we go after them now.

    Not go after them no. But in this instance, from what I’ve gleamed from the leaks that have been published, the evidence is now available to charge some of these people. I’m not suggesting wholescale enquiries into the past, and if that were to be the case I can’t argue that all sides should be scrutinised equally. It would probably do a lot of good to have all sides brought through that process.

    I’m just saying that the Saville enquiry is going to provide sufficient evidence to charge people. In the past where sufficient evidence were available against anyone, that person would be charged. I’m just saying that in this case the same should be the case, though that will be up to the families of the victims and entirely their choice to make. As to the sentencing side of the argument I have no idea.

    I suppose my real problem is the suggestion that the army and police behaviour was beyond reproach, a suggestion that many still cling to. I would dearly love for those people to see that this was most certainly not the case, and did a large amount to create the situation which occurred here, instead of the usual tripe that the conflict was created and propgated by the IRA/Republicans alone and see that in fact all these incidents had an impact. Bloody Sunday more than any other was the birth of the modern troubles.

  • Peter Fyfe

    That makes me ask why waiting on an apology from these two should preclude any other British citizen receiving justice from the state they pay taxes to and live in?

  • bigchiefally

    Neil – I think I am seeing your point a bit better, even if I strongly disagree with bits of it, it is a relatively coherent one compared to many on here.

    You want the world to acknowledge the state wasnt always good and did bad things. I think that is fair enough, bad things happened as a result of them too, and whilst I think some statistics to compare killings wouldnt go amiss in any discussions it is right to paint a fair picture of our troubles.

    You want the people who died on Bloody Sunday to be exonerated. If they were innocent, and I struggle to see how all of them can have been committing acts that were worthy of being shot, then that is right and proper. No problem with that at all. (this is just about the only point of the enquiry I can genuinely see reason for)

    I think the only bit I disagree with is your insistence that should evidence be shown that would allow prosecution of the paras this should go ahead and happen. If cast iron evidence came forward that McGuiness or Adams was invovled in the death of an innocent would you also agree that they should be prosecuted? I am no fan of either of them but I wouldnt, we chose to move on, and I dont see why the paras should be any different.

  • foyle observer

    they did their time unlike the terrorist bastards who ran amok in the Bogside that day. the terrorist Brit who blew Bernard McGuigan’s head off as he walked with a white handkerchief towards one of the other dying walked away scot free and was covered for by Widgery.

    probably decorated like Lee Clegg, that other big brave solider who must have been terrified too eh, must have felt under such immense threat as that car drove at speed AWAY from him and his scumbag colleagues.

    sorry, what was your point again?

  • Battle of the Bogside

    foyle observer

    His point is that he is a bigot. People on here, when it suits them, do not equate state terrorism to the murder by loyalist or republicans. Bloody Sunday was covered up by the terrorist British army/government. Saville is there hopefully tell the truth. Something the British state are allergic to doing!

  • Eire32

    “Did the IRA murder innocent people? YES. Did the UVF murder innocent people? YES. Did the state and its agents murder innocent people? YES.”

    This.

  • bigchiefally

    OK Battle – thats a fair enough point, SOME paramilitary people did do time, not all, but some did. Some did and got off early as a result of the GFA agreement. As the point I made to Neil earlier – what sentence do you impose on the soldiers? 6 years like Sean Kelly did for his killings? 12 like Michael Stone? What is fair and comparable? Similarly for those loyalists and republicans who didnt get caught, if new evidence shows up do we prosecute them?

    You might not agree with my point but I think it is pretty clear, we either move on and ignore all past crimes, or we dont, reopen all the old cases put all those released back in jail.

  • foyle observer

    to bigcheifally,

    Yes, lets draw a line under all that happened in the past.

    Certainly. Lets acknowlege that all sides did wrong and that murder was committed by all parties involved in the conflict.

    If this is the case, then the Parachute Regiment should be disbanded immediately. Like every paramilitary group on the island which have been declared illegal by the British and the Irish governments, the same should be applied to the Parachute Regiment who will, i do not doubt, be found to be cold blooded murderers by Saville.

  • Battle of the Bogside

    Widgery was a lie, Saville is there to tell the truth.

    Republican and loyalist killers have convictions which stops them from getting jobs. The terrorist Paras should at the very least have convictions on statute. They should have all pensions other than the basic state pension revoked. Any gallantry medals for their cowardice should be stripped. OBEs, CBEs, MBEs etc should be revoked. Any job requiring security vetting should be revoked. Parity is parity.

    These murderers should be given convictions at the very least. Kevin Crilly is being tried for the Murder of Robert Niarac. If the PPS feel he should be convicted, then surely the terrorist Paras should also be convicted!

  • kevin moran

    Listen Bog I’ll come clean I’ve been known to dabble in World of Warcraft once or twice myself, but Bog I don’t walk down the street carrying a sword or wearing a horned helm. In other words lad you’ve got to leave the myths where they belong. It ain’t real life, know what I mean?

    There was no ‘Battle of the Bogside’ where the RUC were defeated by “bricks and bottles”. Do you really believe that the Orange Stormtroppers, armed as they were with Webley revolvers, .303 rifles and Shorelands toting 50 cal machine guns were put to flight by wans firing a few bricks. Come on now think hard.

    Was not the truth that after (yet another) recreational riot the polis returned to there favoured spot in Waterloo Place, handy to Victoria Barracks for a cup of tea, parked their Commer tenders across the road and took the collective thrown produce from the Bogside unemployed?

    Yea the did fire CS and the odd stone (why no bullets?), but no battle, no ‘war’; they left that mythmaking to republicans; but come on son you’ve got to move on.

    I’ve often wondered why this love of fantasy amongst your lot? Is it the transubstantiation thing, or the thrashings, and other extracurricular gifts, from Christian Brothers in your formative years. Perhaps it’s simply that damn diddleedee music pounding your ears on a daily basis?

    If only I had thought more deeply about the subject sooner I’m sure I could have delved down that road for a Ph.D. I bet I could have defended my conclusions, hell Slugger is full of case studies.

  • Battle of the Bogside

    What would a person expect from a bigoted pig but a bigoted grunt!

    Have a little read at this article. It is not a myth. The terrorist b-specials were disbanded after their defeat. They were not up to the job. They were defeated by the will of the people of the Bogside, armed with bricks and bottles. That is a fact. Even the BBC acknowledge the battle as a battle. A battle the terrorist b-specials lost and were disgraced and disbanded as a result!

  • vanhelsing

    As a Unionist I, unreservedly sympathise with every innocent Roman Catholic who was murdered in the Troubles. Full Stop. I have stated on several occasions on this site that both loyalist and republican murder gangs committed heinous crimes. On occasions elements in the security forces were involved in some of these murders – this was wrong and unlawful – period. I hope that the BS inquiry reveals the truth about what happened that day.

    But let’s here the rebels come out and apolgise for:
    The Teebane Massacre [8 workmen],
    Darkley Gospel Hall Murders – 3 men killed worshipping in a church,
    Claudy Massacre 9 people killed including a bloody 9 year old child.

    Of course, ironically, they are people [on this site] who rejoiced at the time after these successful IRA ops which resulted in the death of these innocent prods.

    So Mr Foyle Observer / Battle Bogside let’s have some of the ‘old brigage’ come on to this thread and
    1. Show genuine remorse for these people
    2. Explain to me why these operations occured?
    3. How they promoted a United Ireland?

  • foyle observer

    I’m not a spokesperson for the IRA so i’m afraid i cannot answer any of your questions, Vanhelsing.

    You are however doing what every single Unionist has been doing recently and equating the British Army with the IRA. I’m glad you are actually, finally we see Unionists admitting that the IRA / UVF et al were not the only terrorists in the conflict.

  • vanhelsing

    nice post kev – my theory is that BOTB is actually Leroy Jenkins….

  • Battle of the Bogside

    What gives you the right to put these cases forward. Are you a family member of these victims?

    The Saville inquiry was set up to get to the truth. This is because the British state covered up the truth with Widgery. All murder is wrong, state murder is the worst form of murder. Saddam Hussein’s Iraq was invaded because of his state terrorism. Will we now look to another nation to invade the UK because they have committed state murder?

    Maybe we should contact the Chinese ambassador to invite their forces to overthrow the terrorist British government?

  • kevin moran

    Thanks Bog you’ve just one me twenty quid, and you made it pretty easy.

    Next time you raise a glass of bru-sponsored Buckfast round the back of Glenfada Park know that I’ll be thinking fondly of you.

  • vanhelsing

    Loved the ducked question there [no one is ever a spokesman for the IRA] – they should really get someone…how will we EVER know these answers???

    Come on boys think back – all those celebrations when you saw on the news that an RUC man had been blown up by your vols with a UCBT – you probably nearly dropped your fish supper with joy…Remorse anyone??? eh?

    ——-You are however doing what every single Unionist has been doing recently and equating the British Army with the IRA.———

    Not sure where you got that from my post – between the lines maybe – let me clarify…

    Not even in the same ball park. The IRA = terrorists who murdered people. UVF/UDA = terrorists who murdered people [mainly Roman Catholics]. The army/police = the vast majority just normal blokes – some bigotted but that was the minority. Mostly folk who were doing their job – from both sides of our community – mainly murdered by the IRA INLA – for some great cause about 32 countries… Shame on you… No wet dream of 1916, 32 counties or lots of Gaeltacht is worth the innocent people you murdered to get there – nor are the atrocities committed by the other side in the name of the Union. Unbelievable…

  • kevin moran

    You’re too kind vanhelsing. Perhaps Bog thinks that the “will of the people of the Bogside” is something akin to The Force. Now as a Jedi Knight I know I should take offence, but should I pitch the idea to George Lucas instead?

    The Paint Hall awaits ‘Bog Wars’!

  • vanhelsing

    Do I need to be a family member of these people to point out they were murdered? Should I cite some source? Do you believe they didn’t happen?

    State murder the worst form? what?

    ——-‘Maybe we should contact the Chinese ambassador to invite their forces to overthrow the terrorist British government?’———— Knock yourself out big lad – I love to hear that conversation in gaelic….

    It’s a shame that neither Mr Battle or Foyle Obs could answer my questions – perhaps someone will….I’ll check tmrw…

  • Battle of the Bogside

    Vanhelsing

    Your bigotry is shocking. Mick Fealty has just given someone a warning on another thread for such bigotry. Of course, as you are a loyalist, you are allowed to spew out bigotry. Typical loyalist/unionist attitude of they are always wrong and we are always right.

    Fealty, take note. You allow loyalists to spew bigotry and hatred. Republicans are given yellow and red when they do it!

    Your card is marked!

  • Drumlin Rock

    because these two are now part of the state too, and unlike virtually all others currently in authority they were actively involved in the conflict at that period.

  • Drumlin Rock

    you dont mark cards boggy, I think Vanhelsing is being very restrained in the light of some of the stuff said on here.

  • vanhelsing

    Ok one more. ‘Play the ball not the man’ is the rule here BOTB…I was using black humour to illicit a point. I also criticised both sides in equal measure. Perhaps you’re not allowed to use the word IRA [sorry if that was what offended you].

    To simplify my arguement for you, bless – I was wondering if people [no one person] in particular were sorry about what the IRA had done in the past- since some here were giving moral equivalency to both the IRA and British Army? I was especially interested in how some of their ops on civilians contributed to a UI. You see in my earlier post I was sorry for the murders carried out by [my community] in the name of the Union [ashamed actually]. I was wondering how some of the ex-vols felt now about what they had done?

    No where in my post did I criticise Roman Catholics or Protestants [did you even read it?] No not really…eh?

  • Drumlin Rock

    Republicans killed 60%
    Loyalist 30%
    State 10%

    slight difference there,

  • Battle of the Bogside

    Given the fact that I am not an ‘ex-vol’, I cannot say how they feel. If you had read my comment properly, I said that all murder is wrong.

    ALL MURDER

    The difference between state murder in Ireland and other politically motivated murder in Ireland, is that the state investigated all other murders except for murders carried out by state sponsored terrorists. How many terrorist soldiers or terrorist RUC men were put behind bars for their terrorist activities?

    THAT IS THE DIFFERENCE

  • sam

    The reason why republicans are determined to portray the people killed on Bloody Sunday as totally innocent is they need to justify their 30 year sectarian murder campaign. Republicans must convince themselves they are the victims and therefore need their martyrs. The fact that the IRA killed hundreds more innocent Catholics is an inconvenient truth that must obscured at all cost. Catholics killed by republicans really don’t count.

  • jim

    your an ungrateful so n so these paras you are on abusing are out fighting the afgans n taliban on all our behaves.

  • jim

    what jail did the BRITISH MINISTER mc guinness serve 6 months ffs

  • Battle of the Bogside

    How many innocent men women and children have the terrorist Paras murdered in illegal occupation in Afghanistan and Iraq? I suppose we will never know as it is on the other side of the world! The Paras are fighting in Afghanistan because the British government cannot stop the international drugs trade. They are not fighting on my behalf as I do not agree with the British government illegally occupying foreign lands.

    The Paras from tomorrow, will legitimately be known as a terrorist organisation.

  • Battle of the Bogside

    The reason why loyalists are determined to portray the people killed on Bloody Sunday as guilty is they need to justify their 30 year sectarian murder campaign. Loyalists must convince themselves they are the victims and therefore need their martyrs. The fact that loyalists terrorists killed hundreds of innocent Catholics is an inconvenient truth that must obscured at all cost. Protestants killed by loyalist terrorists really don’t count.

  • Battle of the Bogside

    What school did you go to, it would seem for 6 months ffs!

  • jim

    trouble getting JOBS these leeches never worked a day in their lives.but can afford holiday homes in turfland

  • jim

    drug trade stop making a fool of yourself.you must have forgotten sf dealing in columbia.oh i forgot they were bird watching

  • Battle of the Bogside

    Bigoted opinion is no factual account Jim. I know many fromer IRA Vol’s. who do work, mostly in construction. They are limited by the PSNI and its idea of national security.

    Your bigotry is shocking by the way – however do you get away with you five word snipes?

  • jim

    you know ira members who work mostly in construction……….must collect the protection money

  • Battle of the Bogside

    So in your opinion, why have they illegally occupied another country; what is the reason?

    Try and answer properly with more than five words!

  • Drumlin Rock

    60% republican 30% loyalist, 10% state, who has the most questions to answer?

  • Battle of the Bogside

    How can you say your figures are accurate?

    Do you know all the circumstances of every politically motivated murder in this state?

    I doubt it!

    The Brits have the most questions to answer for their and Unionist misrule in Ireland…Fact

  • jim

    why dont you ask the BRITISH MINISTER up there your questions.surely he will help you out he wouldnt help the inquiry out if he was aghost he wouldnt give ye a fright