Will Saville suffice?

Is a torrent of eloquence in Andersonstown News a republican move to soften up public opinion for rejecting the Saville Report and the start of a new phase of campaigning on this and other major cases ?

The writer is

  • Convinced that “Saville will spin the deaths as isolated, accidental, and the result of poor training and communication and the cover-up of all that as misguided. It will not be the last word on one of the conflict’s most grisly episodes.”
  • Projects to other unresolved chapters like the Monaghan-Dublin bombings, the Cory inquires and Stevens.
  • Seeks to embroil the Cameron government in further initiatives rather than restrict them to Stormont commitments and budgets.
  • Sets these cases in an intellectual context of the writing of history

With the rejection of Eames/Bradley and Cameron’s own desire to draw a line under the past“, and an end to “more costly inquiries” the Saville report presents Westminster and Stormont with a choice of redoubling efforts or drawing some sort of line after existing inquiries report. Martin McGuinness’s attitude will be crucial here. He appears to be arguing that the real legacy of Bloody Sunday is the peace process and the deal with the DUP. Whether new demands emerge beyond the telling of stories about the past remains to be seen.

  • old school

    “Irish Nationalists insisted in the 1998 pact that armed conflict would cease IF independent inquiries were held into the Dublin Monaghan bombings, Rosemary Nelson…”
    Andersonstown News.
    What kind of revisionist bull is this?This is journalism?
    So the cause of conflict was lack of independent inquiries?

  • fitzjameshorse1745

    Mr Walker…….how could you do this to me? 🙂
    I was happy in the thought that Id be going away for two weeks just before the Report was published and was happy knowing that when I got back all the Saville Reports threads on Slugger O’Toole would be too old.
    Because lets be honest.
    The Report will not satisfy all but will move the official version of events closer to the Families position than the Widgery position.
    Nationalists will say its not enough…..there will be a few fig leaves to comfort the Para defenders.
    Unionists will point to the cost and some will suggest that “yes we knew all this but is it worthwhile”.

    History? Dont worry about the History. It was nearly 40 years ago. History has already been written.

  • I see the Andytown News referring to the “Catholic civil rights campaign”. As pointed out already by old school, nothing like the re-writing of history in an article complaining about it being re-written. Also good to see the mask slip and the old tribal label being used instead of the more PC term nationalist.

  • TheHorse

    Is that not what it was, civil rights for catholics. Trying to divert attention away from from the fact that the denial of those civil rights was because of religion, it was sectarian, it was not because of Unionist dissaproval of Nationalist political ideology.

  • old school

    Actually the Bloody Sunday march was “Anti Internment”.

    In recent years Mairtin O Millionaire has called for current Republicans to be “locked up in padded cells and have the key thrown away.” His words.
    But that was after the British funding started.

  • fitzjameshorse1745

    Apart from the obvious fact that the denial of human rights to one group of people is a denial to all groups……I think “Catholic” and “Protestant” are as good labels as any.
    Sectarian? Of course but thats what it was all about Sectarianism.

    Ive had enough of the faux ploitical correctness of British/unionist/loyalist and Irish/nationalist/republican.
    We are grown up enough to go with Catholic and Protestant…as a label without actually BEING sectarian.
    Everybody knows what we mean.
    And Im too slow at typing for the official version.

  • The Horse,

    The civil rights campaign was explicitly non-sectarian. And it was also about civil rights for people of all religions and none who were denied the vote at local government elections, as well as against the multiple votes of businessmen. Then there was the special powers act etc.

    A large majority of those whose civil rights were violated were catholics. But the campaign was not limited to catholics, nor did it seek to address itself to exclusively to them.

  • Cynic

    This nonsense is a simple attempt to set the agenda before the report is published. Perhaps we are even seeing the start of the 2011 Assembly Election Campaign!

    He talks a lot about ‘truth’ – but not the truth that encompasses who ordered Jean McConville to be killed, who ordered the Claudy bombing, who organised La Mon, who withheld details of the deal from the Hunger Strikers before the election? No, those truths don’t form part of the lying ‘official’ narrative, so must be excised.

    And again we have the attempt to ride American coat-tails. Unfortunately the Irish American diaspora is looking more and more threadbare. Soon – very soon – they will have been totally supplanted by the Hispanic and Block lobbies. And who then will do nationalisms lobbying for you?

    But the saddest thing of all in this is that the Andytoon Noos (I thought you might like the Ulster Scots Version) has its feed stuck so firmly in the mud of the past. Unlike its own community who, in my experience. mostly want to look to the future.

  • Reader

    fitzjameshorse1745: Apart from the obvious fact that the denial of human rights to one group of people is a denial to all groups……I think “Catholic” and “Protestant” are as good labels as any.
    Though ‘old school’ is correct in that this was specifically an anti-internment march; I suspect you and Martin McGuinness are right in that most of the marchers that day probably only really wanted the Catholic internees released.

  • Alias

    It’s cute that he isn’t calling for an inquiry into an act of collusion wherein the death toll was greater than any of those on his list, i.e. the 50 or so murders committed by the British agents appointed to run PIRA’s Internal Security Unit by Adams/McGuinness leadership and kept in place by them until one died and the other retired.

  • dodrade

    I will be astonished if the Saville report satisfies anyone.

  • TheHorse

    Fair enough Fitzjameshorse then the civil rights movement was formed to highlight the denial of civil rights to catholics by the then protestant government.

  • TheHorse

    Yes Alias add on the murders carried out by their british agent counterparts on the loyalist side – who were mainly all british agents, and we have a senario where the British controlled a sizeable section of people on both sides of the conflict, who carried out acts of violence, including murder, that the British government agencies could have stopped but did not, or those british agents carried out those acts of violence including murder at the behest of the british government agencies.

  • Drumlin Rock

    I get the feeling many on the legals teams will be secretly very satisfied with their bank accounts.

  • Dec

    “Though ‘old school’ is correct in that this was specifically an anti-internment march; I suspect you and Martin McGuinness are right in that most of the marchers that day probably only really wanted the Catholic internees released.”

    ie 99.5% of internees

  • Most people have already made up their minds, or always ‘knew’.

    The civil rights movement set out to be and largely was non-sectarian. It was also successful. It had already won changes in the law and the attention of Dublin and Westminster. I sometimes think the action of the nonsectarian are overlooked in the subsequent years of conflict.

    I will wait for the report but I doubt anyone will be satisfied, including me!

  • Mike

    “In the 1970s, two events transformed the Catholic civil rights campaign. The first, Bloody Sunday in Derry in 1972, …The second event, the no-warning bombing of Dublin and Monaghan on May 17…”

    “Together, these two acts of slaughter transformed the civil rights struggle for jobs, housing and voting equality into a violent conflict to end British garrison rule”

    Is this the beginning of a new and even more bold-as-brass doublethink level of provisional republican myth-making?

    This is historical drivel and nothing short of a bare-faced lie.

    I’m reminded of Orwell’s “Nineteen Eighty-Four”, when Winston recalls that at one time the Party only claimed to have invented the helicopter; now it claimed to have invented manned flight.

    Let’s leave aside the fact that the PIRA, and IRA before it, was dedicated to violence to achieve a 32-county republic (of which it claimed to be the legitimate government), not civil rights. And also let’s even leave aside the fact that serious violence was perpetrated by the PIRA long before Bloody Sunday (98 republican-caused deaths in 1971 alone, including nakedly sectarian mass murder in the Four Step Inn, Balmoral furniture showroom, etc), which undoubtely had a recruiting effect for the PIRA. Let’s leave aside the fact that reform on housing, boundaries and the Council election franchise was achieved in 1969-70 by the civil rights movement.

    Let’s nail this new myth, that the Dublin/Monaghan bombings transformed a peaceful “Catholic civil rights campaign” into a republican campaign of violence.

    Those atrocities took place in May 1974. The most deadly year of the Troubles was in fact already behind us: in 1972, there were 479 Troubles related deaths (source: Sutton index): 267 of which were the responsibility of republican paramilitaries, 112 of loyalist paramilitaries, and 86 of the security forces. That year, 1972, was the only year in which Troubles-related deaths breached the 300 mark, never mind 400 mark. It was also the only year republican killings breached the 200 mark.

    This is a particularly brazen attempt to start a new myth. Wonder will it catch on among the credulous?

  • Mike

    A couple of other observations:

    “A key provision of the 1998 peace pact requires an independent inquiry into the 1974 Dublin-Monaghan bombings”

    This is quite simply another lie. Does the writer believe people are so stupid that they won’t realise this is blatantly untrue?

    “Irish nationalists insisted in the 1998 pact that the armed campaign would cease if independent investigations were initiated into the Dublin-Monaghan bombings, the murder of attorneys Patrick Finucane and Rosemary Nelson, and into the killings of over 1,000 unsolved murders, mostly Catholics.”

    I’m sorry, what??

    Hard to know where to start. Firstly, “Irish nationalists”? Were the SDLP setting conditions for “the armed campaign” ceasing?

    Or is the writer actually just referring to Sinn Féin when they say “Irish nationalists”? If so, even then I can remember SF saying that an end to IRA violence (erm, weren’t they supposed to be on ceasefire from 1997) was dependent on inquiries.

    Also, these 1,000 unsolved murders – does that include murders by the IRA (and other republicans)?

    If not (and one does wonder, given that the writer mentions murder a lot, mentions the IRA a lot, but doesn’t manage to mention a single IRA murder), why the one-sided look, especially considering the majority of murders were carried out by republicans?

    And if so, very interesting – how does this sit against SF’s calls for an amnesty?

  • Gerry Lvs Castro

    Nice to see the Andytown ‘News’ ship continuing on it’s bold voyage to rewrite the past. Seriously does anyone outside RM la la land give a shit?

  • damon

    The daftest part of the Anderstown News piece was this I thought:

    ”What is at stake for the British is the credibility, particularly in America, of Britain’s widely promoted ‘honest broker’ image in the conflict and the effect on the image of England as an effective promoter of democracy, justice and the rule of law around the globe.”

    Who cares what Irish America thinks? Many of them really know nothing, or they have been bamboozeled by the Sinn Féin spin machine.

  • wj

    “Irish nationalists insisted in the 1998 pact that the armed campaign would cease if independent investigations were initiated into the Dublin-Monaghan bombings, the murder of attorneys Patrick Finucane and Rosemary Nelson”.

    It has obviously escaped the A/town News’ attention that the late Rosemary was murdered on 15th March 1999.

    I’ll say no more than that.

  • vanhelsing

    Will Saville suffice? course it won’t:) £200,000,000 unbelievable….

  • vanhelsing

    It was never about money. It was about buying time for the GFA to set in and allowing people to get used tot he benefits of peace.

    Most, if not all of the money will have gone to the lawyers, and you must admit theyve managed to drag it out, at the aforementioned enormous expense, for a very long time.

  • jim

    so will marty

  • Argosjohn

    The facts are simple: 2nd Paras were and are an assault force, not a peace keeping force. Before Bloody Sunday, they had a track record of mowing down unarmed and unconnected RCs. Like the SS, another assault unit, they have committed crimes against humanity. Like the SS, their leaders should be locked up. Likethe SS, they have their civilian backers, as witnessed by the anti Irish attacks following BS in England. They also have their media backers, just like the SS. Just like the SS, all of these should also be jailed. Ain’t gonna happen but them is the facts.

  • boris1

    Before preaching about facts, you should ensure that you are in possession of them yourself.

    2 Para were not the battalion involved in this incident.

  • jim

    the facts are simple.who cares.it was 40 yrs ago ffs are they gonna keep moaning about it like 1916

  • vanhelsing

    It was 1 PARA and the Kings Own Scottish Borders – not 2 PARA. I would usually let this go but some people on this site are so pedantic and tight a**** about everything they remind me of the IT trainer in The Office http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=geZoES9KQ-Q – so i’ll correct you – as someone else would have done to me…

    Anyway ….I love AJ’s simplistic version of events. Perhaps the irony missed him that it was the PARA’s who ended up directly fighting the SS in Arnhem to preserve the democracy and free speech he puts to such good use.

    Just to give some balance to the arguement I understand that AG thinks the Brits are the spawn of Satan because he’s a republican and this beautiful island should be one nation again. The vast majority of the soldiers posted to NI did the best job they could and only very few were sectarian – remember they were from both sides of the community on the mainland. Anyway Bloody Sunday was a mess and I, as a Unionist, very much regret the loss of civilian life there.

    However the IRA [I Ran Away] were just simple murders, cooking up bombs in basements, hatching schemes that Machiavelli would himself be proud of and taking out innocent civilians as they went. There was no war, just hatred from both terrorist groupings and unmentionable things done by both sides.

    So before you take the moral high ground on the PARAs ArgosJohn consider the tens of thousands of gallons of blood the IRA has on it’s hands and as Lady McB herself found out – it’s hard to get rid of….

  • vanhelsing

    ———‘Most, if not all of the money will have gone to the lawyers, and you must admit theyve managed to drag it out, at the aforementioned enormous expense, for a very long time’———-

    Agreed – I just think of what £200,000,000 could have done for the deprived areas on the communities in NI. There is also a sense that [most] people are trying to move from the past – here is a massive sum of money which takes us back 40 years…

  • vanhelsing

    I agree, and whichever way the report goes its going to cause an enormous row.

    The relatives of the deceased need to know they have done their best to get to the truth. Sadly there will be those, not necessarily the families, who will insist that even this report does not deliver the truth. A lot of money has been spent, perhaps it was not enough.

    BTW I agree with much of your comment: 12.52

  • The Impartial Observer

    Will Saville suffice?

    I suspect that some people will only be satisfied if the report states that armed terrorists were shot dead that day and some other people will only be satisfied if the report states that Prince Charles gave the order to open fire.

    People will be arguing over the event of Bloody Sunday 40 years from now.

  • Battle of the Bogside

    Jim

    I think 1916 is more recent than 1689 or 1690. Maybe loyalists could also stop moaning about not being allowed to walk where they are not wanted??

  • Battle of the Bogside

    “…just hatred from both terrorist groupings…”

    The British army are the 2nd biggest terrorist organisation in the world. They are second only to the Israeli Defence Force.

  • boris1

    I think you’ll find that the biggest terrorist organization in the world is actually the Catholic Church, and the vermin that live under its paedophile shadow.

  • Battle of the Bogside

    boris1

    That is your bigoted opinion and you are entitled to it. Your opinion is wrong, state terrorism is the worst form of terrorism. Saddam Hussein was overthrown for state sponsored terrorism. After the report is released who will over throw the terrorist British government – the Orange Order?

  • boris1

    The opinion is not bigoted, its a simple statement of fact.

    The Vatican is a state. Its policies result in the obscene lingering death of many thousands. Children, as well as adults, die on a daily basis as a direct result of Papal instruction.

    The Pope sits decked in gold and jewels while children starve to death as a direct result of his fascist dogma.

    Lets not forget the systematic paedophilia either.

  • vanhelsing

    I think that says it all about your schema of the world:)

    I make a comment about Catholic and Prod terror gangs and yip it’s all the fault of the Brits [of and of course the Israelis] .

    Interesting your comment didn’t include the ‘struggling brothers’ of Hamas, and AQ and ETA – after all we’re all just one big happy, fluffy terrorist family:)

  • Battle of the Bogside

    The Vatican is a state. Its policies result in the obscene lingering death of many thousands. Children, as well as adults, die on a daily basis as a direct result of Papal instruction.

    The Pope sits decked in gold and jewels while children starve to death as a direct result of his fascist dogma

    The British state and its policies result in the obscene lingering death of many thousands. Children, as well as adults, die on a daily basis as a direct result of British government instruction.

    The English Queen sits decked in gold and jewels while children starve to death as a direct result of British state fascist dogma

  • Battle of the Bogside

    vanhelsing

    What exactly does the terrorist activity of the British army on Bloody Sunday have to do with Catholic or Protestant terror gangs?

    The British army carried out a terrorist attack on Bloody Sunday, that is a fact.

  • Gerry Lvs Castro

    An appalling waste of 200 million pounds that is going to satisfy absolutely no-one.

    The depressingly familiar ‘Brit war machine, Israeli terrorists’ blah blah vs ‘Irish republican terrorism & the Vatican’ blah blah merely reinforces the fact that the two sides here are stuck in their little trenches and absolutely nothing is going to change their positions.

  • jim

    big deal

  • Battle of the Bogside

    Jim

    Can you actually string a sentence of more than five words together? Judging by your grammar I doubt it. Away and get some English lessons, you need them!

  • vanhelsing

    In my post I was merely pointing out the irony of a Republican calling British soldiers terrorists. Clearly you don’t see it but an example will be my last post of the day.

    In the EU Al-Qaeda is a proscribed terrorist organisation. When your boys were happily blowing up everything they could the IRA was a proscribed terrorist organisation. It’s a little like Al-Qaeda calling a country in the EU terrorists. Most right thinking people would say that’s a little weird – THEY ARE THE TERRORISTS.

    In the same way most right thinking people saw the IRA as terrorists – however I think that’s lost on many people in Slugger.

  • vanhelsing

    Cheers pip

  • Battle of the Bogside

    vanhelsing

    So you are now telling the readers and posters on Slugger O’Toole that the British army were not involved in conflict in Ireland. The truth of the matter is that, while republicans were branded as terrorists, the terrorist British army were branded as honest brokers in a sectarian war. This was not the case. Both Bloody Sunday episodes in Ireland were acts of terrorism and Tuesday will see one of the two being exposed as just that, an act of terrorism, fact!

    Clearly you don’t see it but I will give you an example:

    The Israeli Defence force is a terrorist organisation.When the British army were using your boys to blow the place up, the loyalist terrorist organisations acted with impunity. It’s a little like the US government allowing the Israeli Defence Force to get away with state sponsored terrorism and international piracy while branding Hamas as the only terrorists in the conflict. Most right thinking people would say that’s a little weird – THE AXIS OF EVIL; THE BRITISH, US, ISRAELI ARMIES ARE THE TERRORISTS.