The moral limits of dealing with terrorism

Ahead of Gerry on Jesus on C4 tomorrow, the commentator Geoffrey Wheatcroft writing in the Independent, identifies racism as a reason for applying double standards to terrorism. In summary, Israel gets away with assassinating a Hamas official in Dubai because he’s “black”. Wheatcroft goes on to draw comparisons with Martin McGuiness and Gerry Adams and the actions of Tony Blair. Two questions arise; Israel and Hamas are still in conflict, whereas the UK and the IRA have stopped. Does that make a moral difference? How is morality served now, today, by trying to bring them to book? My answers come easily enough but they weigh on the spirit. Adds: I see Dewi and I posted more or less simultaneously but at least we offer different extracts.From Geoffrey Wheatcroft: Our differing approaches to terrorism

“Some years ago, the contrarian Belfast journalist John O’Farrell (not a Protestant unionist) was writing about the career of Martin McGuinness, which had taken him from head of the IRA to minister of education. As O’Farrell said, thanks to the Belfast agreement and settlement, “the children of Northern Ireland will have their futures in the hands of a man who, if he were a Serb, would be indicted at The Hague”.

Or try another comparison, the respective fate of two terrorist leaders. One is a white Catholic Irishman, the other a dark-skinned Muslim Palestinian; one is asked to present a programme on Jesus, the other is brutally bumped off – an assassination which, like all such by Mossad, will never be publicly condemned by the US. Suppose that, at the height of the IRA violence, Adams and McGuinness had been the objects of “targeted killing” by MI6. It’s interesting to speculate what the American reaction would have been.

The British media are sometimes accused of a bias against Israel. But would Channel 4 ask an unrepentant Islamist terrorist who had killed ordinary Israelis to present a programme on the Prophet Mohamed?”
.

  • Alias

    [i]In summary, Israel gets sway with assassinating a Hamas official in Dubai because he’s “black”.[/i]

    Is it because I is black? I would that thought it was because weeping tears for the death of a terrorist and keeping a pair of dry eyes focused on the deaths of innocent civilians that is the trade of these terrorists is generaly only a practice that the left wing media engage in…

  • Israel will get away with it, not because the victim was black, or not quite white, but because they are bank rolled by the Americans.

    It is by the way much the same reason Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness got away with it, and having let them off, you have no choice but to let the loyalists off too.

    The Irish lobby and the Jewish lobby in America, two very powerful groups, fading but still powerful.

  • Alias

    Gordon Kerr told the judge at the trial of FRU agent Brian Nelson that his activities had saved hundreds of lives. However, Sergeant Benwell of the Stevens Inquiry which investigated FRU activity said “I could only find maybe two cases where the information given by Nelson may have been helpful to the Security Forces in preventing attacks.” One of those two cases was the FRU saving the life of Gerry Adams.

    Incidentally, Israel isn’t “bankrolled” by the US. The US provides military assistance to Israel to promote shared security objectives in that region – money that is less that 3% of Israel’s GDP.

  • Brian,

    Have you considered the Smartest of Quiet Men, who once a Model Terrorist again, will never Falter and Fail but Safely Delivering Perfect Help?

    And you may have grossly misunderestimated Messrs McGuinness and Adams, and Young Online Ireland with Definite Visions and Virtual Savvy from a Strong Healthy Gene/Meme Pool.

    Celtic Blood coursing through Veins is Particularly and QuITe Peculiarly HyperRadioProActive and Head Strong …. Selflessly Ambitious.

  • Alias

    And no doubt the Israelis would still be there if the Americans had never and did not continue their support.

    Get real, the Israelis would not last a couple of days without American backing, financial and military, they could call the Israelis to heal any time, and they dont.

    All this twaddle about shared objectives. Is it in Americas interest to subjugate the Palestinians, arguably it is the worst thing that has ever happened to them (the Americans). It gives every aggressive Islamist a cause to attack them.

  • Paddy

    Israel is a terrorist state. They have killed Irish soldiers and regularly buump off Palestinian kids. Their sense of smug complacency about this murder is par. They have got away with a lot more.
    They double cross all and sundry, Yanks included, when it suits them.

    The terrorist war against Iraq and the proposed war by British and Yankee terrorist states against Iran is for the benefit of Israel.

    More could be saidf about these violators of human rights and thieves of Arab land but they get away with so much, why bother?

  • Paddy

    We have to bother because as much as Israel cherishes its victimhood, it hates to be seen as the aggressor, especially in America. If we all just let them get away with it without a word of protest, then they ‘paint the world in their colours’.

  • FitzjamesHorse

    It may or may not be relevant that Geoffrey Wheatcroft is author of “The Controversy of Zion” which won the National Jewish Book Award….so quite possibly not a friend of Palestinians.

    Of course the simple answer to the question posed is that Channel 4 (had it existed in the 1970s) would not have given a platform to Gerry Adams on Jesus.
    Odd that Brian Walker should have forgotten that for many years there was actually a broadcsting ban on Gerry Adams and his fellow terrorists.
    We are however led to believe that the war is over and presumably it is perfectly acceptable for a programme to be produced……although in an earlier thread Mr Walker assures us that he would not have commissioned such a programme.
    Whether this is on the grounds of Quality or his antipathy to Gerry Adams (and indeed anything nationalist) he does not say. But the issue does seem to exercise him beyond its importance.

    As islamic terrorists are still at war, then I dont actually see the comparison. Quite probably in ten years time there WILL be such a programme as “Islamic Terrorist on Mohammed” (praise be upon him) commissioned……possibly by Mr Walker.
    But Mr Walker..please be careful not to incur the wrath of Wheatcroft, David Aaronovitch and Mad Mel Phillips.

  • David Crookes

    Two arguments against the notion of a unified American nation involve first the existence of distinct racial groups, and secondly the influence that some of these groups can exert outside the USA. Lithuanians have come to live in NI during the last few years. It will be altogether absurd for the great-great-great-grandchildren of those immigrants to interfere in the politics of Lithuania at any time in the 22nd century. The same kind of logic applies exactly to so-called Irish Americans, but no British government in my lifetime has ever been bold enough to state the fact, even during the years when Irish Americans were bankrolling terrorism in the UK.

    Did those Irish Americans constitute a tiny ‘terrorist state’ within their own state? I don’t know: but once you articulate a belief in ‘terrorist states’, you are compelled to list all the states that you so designate in ranking order of badness, since some of them are bound to be worse than others. Then you are obliged to protest most clamantly against the very worst of these states. You can’t capriciously select one state and expect that particular state to be made the focus of international anger. Some groups have made their own cause fashionable by becoming expert propagandists. Other groups arouse no interest because they have failed in the propaganda department. (Arafat and Hume enjoyed access to many powerful persons who didn’t give a hoot about the Crimean Tartars.)

    We MUST have equitability. If you think that all women should have rights, then let us see you campaigning intrepidly for women’s rights in Islamic countries. If you dislike murder and repression, then let us not see you lapsing into guilty post-colonial silence when the name of Mugabe is mentioned.

    Do you claim to be distressed by oppression? Then you must demonstrate your distress equitably and proportionately. You can’t pick one fashionable group of victims, and act as if every other group of victims was somehow less important, or even unworthy of attention.

    There are many differences between NI and Israel. Here’s one. NI was not attacked in 1967 by three neighbouring nations who openly proclaimed their own desire for its extinction. Of course the Israeli intelligence services should not engage in assassination. Neither should the intelligence services of any other nation. Let’s be equitable.

  • David Crookes

    How very long winded. Did you hope we would all give up before you got to the crux of your argument.

    Israel did not exist before 1948. In order to create their ‘state’ they evicted 4000,000 palestinians.

    What was it Ben Gurian said: The old will die and the young will forget?

    He was wrong. The Palestinians have a right to more than the scraps off the Israeli table.

  • Damian O’Loan

    There is no contradiction here.

    Gerry Adams served Brtish and American governments and economies well, by and large, and continues to do so. The murder of a senior Hamas figure, alleged to be involved in arms smugglng from Iran and at a time when Fatah and Hamas are close to establishing a national government, equally serves both governments well.

    That popular taste has moved on SF is because it now serves, openly, from the inside – or on field trips to Iraq. Popular taste will move on Islamic terrorists if they begin to serve the US in a different manner. That does not mean that most people sanction the rule of force, but if one feels powerless to alter that reality, why choose what appears to be the losing side?

    I’ll stop short of invoking Godwin at this point.

    If you bother to look at the demands of Al-Qaeda, you will find that respect for Islam by capitalism is at the core. Such respect for Christianity was recently shown by both Houses of Parliament, albeit undermined by a more long-term clause. It is not racism that is important here, it is corporate growth, something the Independent almost invariably stops short of questioning.

  • Scaramoosh

    Operation Rainbow; Shoot to Kill; Covert SAS and US Special Force Assasinations in Iraq and Afghanistan; self-delusion; the good terrorist; the bad terrorist; the protected species; the fall guy. The common theme; power and its preservation.

    It would seem that we remain a long way from understanding that the social and political world which we all seem so keen to accept as given, has in fact been manufactured and maintained through intimidation, propaganda, mystification, and the manipulation of symbols and history.

    A small example, that does not rest easy on the shoulders of either community; the fact that William III actually tried to extend legal toleration of religious worship to English Catholics and even to introduce it into Scotland and Ireland.

    Another one; the fact that the IRA’s case rested on Catholics being alienated and discriminated against; so they helped to create a society in which they were.

    Perhaps when he is free from prison and has repented his past, C4 can ask Michael McKevitt to host a programme on the Devil. That should get the chattering classes chattering.

  • So the logic is that Gerry Adams is a non person who really should not be appearing on televisions owned by decent people and talking about spiritual issues (are we in 2010 or does the broadcasting ban still apply?), whereas a politician like, say, Margaret Thatcher is a real person (whom Brian Walker would no doubt have been delighted to have “commissioned” as he puts it during his time at the BBC). Thatcher can grace our screens because… Well because she was a British politician and world figure and deserves our respect and esteem. She also has clean and finely manicured hands.

    Now where have I heard that kind of logic before?

  • David Crookes

    I’m grateful for your helpful comment, pippakin (#10). My argument had no ‘crux’, although you have cleverly contrived to find one. I apologize for being so prolix. No man should expect his readers to handle 385 words at a time. Thanks for brightening up my evening.

    Israel used to counter a certain species of advice from HMG by saying, ‘Why should we talk to the PLO when you don’t talk to the IRA?’ How life moves on. A lot of trouble will stop when we all start living in accordance with Psalm 87.

  • John O’Connell

    Perhaps when he is free from prison and has repented his past, C4 can ask Michael McKevitt to host a programme on the Devil.

    Going by his Late Late Show performace, where he tried to get Ryan Tubridy to endorse the IRA’s campaign of violence, Gerry Adams still hasn’t got it in relation to Jesus’ message. No repentance means that he doesn’t understand his admiration for Jesus.

    He is, of course, deluded in his endorsement of armed struggle to get rid of oppression. Jesus’ way may actually work. His way leaves us stuck forever in Stormont. If he had have understood the unionists 40 years ago he might have realised that every bullet fired would be a nail in the coffin of a united Ireland.

    But would Channel 4 ask an unrepentant Islamist terrorist who had killed ordinary Israelis to present a programme on the Prophet Mohamed?”

    Unrepentant is the key word here. I agree that Adams is just the wrong person to be presenting a programme about Jesus. But has he lost all sense? This could do him and Sinn Fein more damage than every bomb and bullet fired. Is this the real end of Gerry Adams as he suggests that he is on a par with Jesus Christ?

    My own experience of working out that his name comes out at 666 leads me to believe that this is a pivotal moment.

  • David Crookes

    I hit a nerve! sorry.

    I thought you implied that the three states who declared war on Israel were somehow wrong to do so. I merely wanted to point out they had thousands of people foisted on them, on the grounds they were all arab so thats all right then.

    People lost homes, farms, businesses, and are still losing them to this country of fascists and fanatics.

  • BryanS

    Every bullet fired would be a nail in a united irelane
    Absolutely john.
    Will the ever understand this

    i posted this earlier…………
    I reckon SFIRA and the ‘armed struggle’ have done more than anything else to set back the cause and prospect of Irish Unity by at least a half century.
    Take me for example. Born in dublin of parents born in derry and armagh at the turn of the century. Why do I feel British and why am I a uniouist? Surely it would be natural for me to be a nationalist? The reason can only be as a reaction to the violence in the name of Irish unity. Most reasonable people would react against the mindless bombings and shootings carried out by the IRA. To an extent these criminals have stolen my Irishness. They haven’t made me feel close to the English but they have distanced me from anything Irish that they represented. While I realise that they have only a tiny support in the south they have alienated me from people I should feel a real affinity to. Damn them for it. Wee it not for the nastiness of the last 40 years a united Ireland would be have been a logical conclusion.

  • David Crookes

    Thanks a lot, pippakin (#16). Don’t be sorry. Sometimes I get fed up listening to myself.

    It’s very hard to have a calm discussion about Israel. I was in Madrid when the 1991 peace conference was going on, and I felt quite hopeful about the future. Many people felt equally hopeful after President Obama spoke in Cairo. Now it looks as if an old-style jingoistic Mossad is trying to raise the tension. As far as I can see some Israelis, like some Ulster Protestants, prefer continual crisis and unease to settled peace.

  • David Crookes

    I know how you feel. Israel brings out the worst in me.

    They stole those passports, effectively identities of Irish and Brits because they knew they could. It would have been so much easier for them to steal American identities (far more of them visit and live in Israel for a start) but that would upset the Americans and they must not do that must they.

    I am not against an Israeli state, its too late for that, but I am against the attempted annihilation of an entire people and culture, because of what some book written thousands of years ago, by someone who today might well be an Israeli, and which I dont read anyway.

  • David Crookes

    I almost forgot!

    I totally agree with you about the whole Irish and Jewish lobby in America.

    It is absured and outrageous how much influence some people think they should still have here when all they have to do is wave a cheque book. It should not have happened and no other group must ever be allowed to gain so much influence again.

  • “I am not against an Israeli State, its too late for that”

    Pippakin

    Sadly and it breaks my heart to say so, I see this in the opposite way to you, I have gradually concluded it is far to late in the long run for the state of Israel to continue to exist. The governments of Israel have had every opportunity to solve this problem by a two state solution. If they had honestly gone down this road two-thirds of the worlds population would have applauded them, including Palestinians. Instead Israel has decided on a single state solution, they clearly foresee in 100 years/whatever there will only be one State in what is not Israel and the West bank and Gaza; Israel.

    As things stand Israel can now only exist as a racist and Apartheid State, part of which will eventually be on what the whole world regards as illegally conquer land.

    Eventually, as happened with apartheid South Africa, the world will tire of supporting such an unjust and criminal State; and will
    will turn on Israel with a vengeance. When this happens, which it undoubtedly will, the Palestinians and their Arab neighbours will be in no frame of mind to compromise their demands and the Jewish people who live in Israel will be scattered to the four corners of the world for a second time.

    I hope I am wrong about this, but I cannot see this massive injustice and reckless criminal behaviour by the Zionists ending any other way.

  • Brian Walker

    offworld, I said I wouldn’t have commissioned Gerry Adams to make this sort of programme but that is what C4 is for. I might have commissioned him to make a different sort of programme, OK? Not the same thing at all as banning him from the airwaves, so your logic doesn’t apply. For me, mcuhg depends on whether he shows integrity in the programme. C4 are trailing a journey “from activist to peacemaker” which sounds euphemistic t0 me. I’ll defer further comment until I’ve seen the programme

  • David Crookes

    What a great forum this is, pippakin. Over and over again I find my own notions being challenged, refined, and corrected. Put up with me while I point out something. The book that you ‘don’t read’ has no time for narrow nationalism. In Psalm 87 the Palestinians ( = ‘Philistia’) are right in there along with the Jews and all their former enemies. After reading that psalm I have no trouble with a DUP-SF coalition. It is possible that if we all settle down here we shall be able to furnish some kind of example for the Middle East. Of course it will need a lot of magnanimity. What does that mean in practice? Well, for a unionist politician it means trying to accommodate the culture and identity of republicans to the very limit of possibility. It bemuses me that certain unionist politicians are at pains to preserve corporate feelings of enmity.

    Amen to what you say about ethnic lobbies. Have a good rest-of-the-weekend.

  • Mickhall

    In many ways I agree with you, to gain or keep international respect they must move back to pre 1966 borders, give up all the land they have built houses on, allow the proper flow of water into Palestine and (it goes on doesnt it) knock down that bloody wall.

    Notwithstanding the above, they have the backing of America, neither Russia or China care enough, at the moment, to help the Palestinians therefore they go on. To be fair a lot of young people, and now not so young, were born there. To them it is home so an accommodation must be found.

    America has a very strong Jewish lobby so its understandable in a way that they get a lot of support there. The Germans for obvious reasons will not say anything, but I cannot understand why no other European government ever fully condemns or imposes sanctions against them. I never knowingly buy anything made or from Israel. Again, I cannot understand why anyone would.

  • David Crookes

    Just for you I will look up Psalm 87 and see what you mean. I didnt say I didnt have the book (I have two) just that I didnt read it.

    Have a good one.

  • slappymcgroundout

    “As things stand Israel can now only exist as a racist and Apartheid State”

    Explain that to the Arabs, Bedouin, Druze, Ethiopians, and Sudanese who proudly serve in the IDF. By the way, the aparteid state never had its Abbas Suan:

    When you can find the vid of the Bantu or Zulu scoring the late goal for the Union of South Africa please let me know, though since I don’t have a death wish, I won’t be holding my breath in the interim.

    Now for the direct comparison, no black human ever did this for the Union of South Africa:

    “It is possible that if we all settle down here we shall be able to furnish some kind of example for the Middle East.”

    Note the peace wall in Belfast. You already are the example.

  • Brian – re your point 22.

    I was not questioning your integrity. For the record, whilst I might often disagree with your analysis, I believe you to be a principled journalist.
    However, I believe my Adams/Thatcher analogy still stands. Mrs Thatcher quoted Saint Francis of Assisi when the Tories got into power in the UK in 1989 and, as far as I know, not one journalist has ever had the temerity to ask the Iron Lady whether she had actually governed in the spirit of that great saint. (I realise that this would probably be impossible now.) It is also the case, that no journalist would ask whether Thatcher was a fit person to appear on television speaking about her faith.
    Adams is regarded as a “non person” by many within the so called Fourth Estate (which is supposed to be there to defend freedom of speech). This is the real reason that we are having the debate about his right to speak about matters spiritual.

  • Slappy,

    Typical ignorant Zionist crap, deal with the issues not some football match, in many ways you prove my point by using sport, remind me what state used to use sport to prove they were not a racist apartheid state.

    In a sane and rational world Israel would not be able to participate in international sporting events, nor the Eurovision song contest come to that, but don’t lets go there.

    You clearly have no idea how Arabs are treated within Israel let alone the Druse, who at one time where the minority group most sympathetic to the Israeli State, not any more. As to Ethiopians I am not sure why you have mentioned them, for as if by magic they were turned into jews overnight. Although since then they have learnt the State they became citizens of is racist to the core.

    All racist States have one thing in common, the need to demonise a section of the community, usually the least powerful. In this Israel is no different, as anyone who has ever spent a nano second in Israel will know.

  • Marlaghman

    Yes I am all for Gerry meeting his maker, the sooner the better, as he will point him in the right direction. Him and the devil must be old friends by now.

  • slappymcgroundout

    Mickhall:

    Except I am not a Zionist.

    Re the Druse, does that include the Major General? Here, Major General Yosef Mishlev:

    http://www.kawther.info/ga2/main.php?g2_itemId=10686

    The Druse Major General is more Zionist than the Jews themselves, or so the moron wrote. About sums his critique and your position as well, which is to say, absurd and preposterous.

    Now on to Bedouins, why would the apartheid state make Ishmael Khalidi its deputy consul and post him to San Francisco? Here, Ishmael Khalidi:

    http://brumspeak.blogspot.com/2009/03/bedouin-muslim-ishmael-khaldi-deputy.html

    Lastly, here is the paradigm that escapes you:

    The similarities of the loyalists and the Palestinians: Loyalists have killed and tortured almost exclusively random Catholic civilians. This is because they are motivated by a fundamental racism that their opponents do not feel. Any objective historian will be struck by the fact that, like in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the republicans generally tried to hit military targets, while the loyalist supporters would cheer the killing of any random civilian. To observe this does not mean one supports either the republicans or the Israelis. It is to observe that fundamental beliefs come out in the way one wages war.

    Here, close to your home, starting at the 5:30 mark:

    On the other side:

    By the way, back to Israel, can you explain why an Arab Israeli sits on the Israeli Supreme Court? Is that the villification that you speak of? The racist, apartheid state doesn’t go anywhere near Walid Badir and Abbas Suan scoring the late heroic goal, followed immediately by their Jewish teammates mobbing them in exultation, and when the game’s at home, the home crowd erupting in a state of near orgasmic ecstasy. Abbas Suan plays to give hope, to show that unity is possible, etc. Here is that effect, in the army context:

    http://www.israelibyday.com/2009/04/druzebeduin-soldiers-in-idf.html

    Oh, for one more by the way, this is a point that both Branch Rickey and Jackie Robinson would understand.

    For one more, you RC? Sound like it. Still infects the church. One of the reasons I left.

    Now on to Ethiopians (and Sudanese), more ignorance on your part:

    http://tinyurl.com/yea7sj6
    http://tinyurl.com/yae4mcm

    So you must have only spent a nanosecond in Israel, as you termed the time period.

  • RepublicanStones

    There are many differences between NI and Israel. Here’s one. NI was not attacked in 1967 by three neighbouring nations who openly proclaimed their own desire for its extinction.

    Ehh, David, neither was Israel.

    Explain that to the Arabs, Bedouin, Druze, Ethiopians, and Sudanese who proudly serve in the IDF.

    Proudly? probably out of economic necessity. As Haaretz states..

    “The rise in the Bedouin recruitment rate is attributed to Bedouin’s difficulty in finding well-paid jobs outside the military and problems with the local authorities.”

    And the africans you speak of are falasha, beta-israel….. aren’t they jewish?

    Plus Slappy care to explain the rather strange property and land laws in israel, which discriminate against non-jews? oh and the peculiar marriage laws…oh, oh and the rahter strange case of the israeli govt refusing to recognise Bedouin villages in the Negev. I mean if there is no discrimination….

    Oh and have a gander at this.

    http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1126900.html

  • tuatha

    Surely the author jests to claim that SF/nationalists weren’t “the objects of “targeted killing” by MI6.” Has everyone forgotten “Death on the Rock”? The plain clothes death squads roaming NI throughout the 70s, using RNIC radio frequencies to be picked up following a ‘despatch’, their use of army facilities from the mess to surveillance & helicopters to traverse the Six Counties.
    How short memory is.

  • tuatha

    Surely the author jests to claim that SF/nationalists weren’t “the objects of “targeted killing” by MI6.” Has everyone forgotten “Death on the Rock”? The plain clothes death squads roaming NI throughout the 70s, using RNIC radio frequencies to be picked up following a ‘despatch’, their use of army facilities from the mess to surveillance & helicopters to traverse the Six Counties.
    How short memory is.

  • Ramzi Nohra

    RS – also despite sacrificing proportionally more than the jewish population of Israel, the druze get much less per capita spending than the broader community.

    As well as that the bedoin and druze war heroes couldnt live in west bank settlement as they aren’t jewish

    Israel is a racist state and always has been – they even treated Mizrahi (ie middle eastern) jews like dirt until recently.

    Its over-riding identity is of an Ashkenazi Jewish State.

    However, I think apartheid is too strong. A true apartheid state wouldnt have given arabs the vote, let alone allow a very small number into senior government levels.

  • slappymcgroundout

    Stones: What state isn’t racist? Only those states wherein the population is rather very nearly homogeneous (and so they don’t get credit, since they haven’t the chance to be racist there at home). And if you’re all against racism then why isn’t there a solidarity mural on the wall there for the Karen and the Shan of Burma? Likely because they don’t have AK47s to sell you.

    Now to borrow from Ramzi and de Valera, Ireland is an Irish Catholic State. Ready to condemn that state as racist and otherwise bigoted? And for more Protestant fears, Mr. Cowen: defend both the Vatican and the church in Ireland. And, please, never tell them that de Valera sent his draft constitution to the Vatican for approval (which he obtained). Is a RC theocracy any better than an Ashkenazi Jewish State?

    And call it even, and so call the other side on teaching hate to their children:

    Lastly, for one of my favorite Youtube vids:

    My next favorite:

    I know what I’m fighting against, do you?

    As for me, I against those who made the child a misfit, then wire her and him to self-detonate, and then send them out to die, on the premise that better life in hereafter as martyr than life as misfit that we’ve made for you:


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iqh747DGfsg

  • RepublicanStones

    Stones: What state isn’t racist?

    Plenty, or are you actually suggesting every state has peculiar property, land laws and practices, and also marriage laws which discriminate against an indigenous minority?

    And if you’re all against racism then why isn’t there a solidarity mural on the wall there for the Karen and the Shan of Burma? Likely because they don’t have AK47s to sell you.

    I don’t paint murals. And your question is typical of pro-Israel supporters finger pointing at other unsavoury regimes and attempts at inferring hypocrisy in those who sympathize with the Palestinians. Tell me Slappy, does Burma recieve a blank cheque each year from the west’s only superpower? Does it have a level of western diplomatic support which is shameful given its record?

    Lastly, for one of my favorite Youtube vids:

    My next favorite:

    You like those vids? Moreover you admit to liking them???!!!!!

    And if its indoctrinated hatred you are fighting aginst, both sides are guilty…

    http://ethicsdaily.com/news.php?viewStory=14410

    http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1128767.html

    I know what I’m fighting against, do you?

    Im not ‘fighting’ against anything. I do know however that the Palestinians are fighting a rather unsavoury ideology which has much support in the west…..Zionism.

    As for me, I against those who made the child a misfit, then wire her and him to self-detonate, and then send them out to die, on the premise that better life in hereafter as martyr than life as misfit that we’ve made for you:

    Perhaps if instead of blanket condemnation, you were to recognise the genisis of the conflict. As Avraham Burg former speaker of the knesset was brave enough to do…

    It is very comfortable to be a Zionist in West Bank settlements such as Beit El and Ofra. The biblical landscape is charming. From the window you can gaze through the geraniums and bougainvilleas and not see the occupation. Traveling on the fast highway ›hat takes you from Ramot on Jerusalem’s northern edge to Gilo on the southern edge, a 12-minute trip that skirts barely a half-mile west of the Palestinian roadblocks, it’s hard to comprehend the humiliating experience of the despised Arab who must creep for hours along the pocked, blockaded roads assigned to him. One road for the occupier, one road for the occupied.
    This cannot work. Even if the Arabs lower their heads and swallow their shame and anger forever, it won’t work. A structure built on human callousness will inevitably collapse in on itself. Note this moment well: Zionism’s superstructure is already collapsing like a cheap Jerusalem wedding hall. Only madmen continue dancing on the top floor while the pillars below are collapsing.
    We have grown accustomed to ignoring the suffering of the women at the roadblocks. No wonder we don’t hear the cries of the abused woman living next door or the single mother struggling to support her children in dignity. We don’t even bother to count the women murdered by their husbands.
    Israel, having ceased to care about the children of the Palestinians, should not be surprised when they come washed in hatred and blow themselves up in the centers of Israeli escapism. They consign themselves to Allah in our places of recreation, because their own lives are torture. They spill their own blood in our restaurants in order to ruin our appetites, because they have children and parents at home who are hungry and humiliated.
    We could kill a thousand ringleaders and engineers a day and nothing will be solved, because the leaders come up from below — from the wells of hatred and anger, from the “infrastructures” of injustice and moral corruption.
    If all this were inevitable, divinely ordained and immutable, I would be silent. But things could be different, and so crying out is a moral imperative.

    As Ben-Gurion himself admitted, the agressors in this conflict are not the Palestinians.

  • slappymcgroundout

    Thanks for dodging the point there Stones. There can’t be the rascism you described when there is no indigenous minority. So Japan is out, Korea is out, and on down the line.

    Re your marriage, you might try Iraq and Malaysia. Except that you won’t be able to marry Muslim unless you are Muslim. Note also that in Malaysia, Muslim male can have up to 4 wives, while Christian you can only have the 1.

    You might also ask the Copts whether they’ve had any success in getting permission to expand their churches. Their reply will be, no, we have never received permission to extend our churches. Matter of fact, the Muslims buy up all the property surrounding our churches and refuse to ever sell us the land so that we might expand our church, and it doesn’t matter how much money we offer.

    Lastly, why do I care about Avraham? He’s like most of the peace crowd. They speak in these terms:

    Q: Why do they blow us up in the restaurant in Tel Aviv?
    A: Because of the way we treat them in the occupied territories.

    Two problems with that. First, back when Jordan rules West Bank and Egypt the Gaza Strip, Palestinian Arabs crossed the border into Israel and murdered Israelis. So occupation doesn’t explain the phenomenon.

    Second, note occupied territories. Why aren’t the Arabs in Israel forming their version of the PIRA and the UVF? And why did the one Muslim municipality near Jerusalem vote to remain in Israel and not join any new Palestinian state? Is that because as bad and as unequal as it might be, better Chaim Herzog and Benjamin Netanyahu than Hosni Mubarak, Hafez al-Assad, and Saddam Hussein? You’re deluding yourself if you think that the new state will wind up any different. Again, while I cannot say for certain, I rather suspect that the no PIRA and UVF for Arabs in Israel, and the vote to remain in Israel, are entirely owing to some Arabs knowing the existing state of their own. Perhaps you might consider that.

    Now back to discrimination. Hama:

    http://www.shrc.org/data/aspx/d5/2535.aspx

    Syria is a patchwork and it only holds together because of the fear of the Syrian police and military. Don’t act up or we’ll kill 10s of thousands of you and bulldoze the place to rubble. Note the recitation in the link to the other “massacres”. The Assads are better than the Brits, as they have some from the one group police the other group, and thereby continue to generate hostile feelings among the various groups, which allows them to rule. When things don’t go that way, Hama. Or else they lock everyone up in jail. According to SHRC, that number is in the 1000s.

    Almost forgot, but you an argue with the Jewish Virtual Library here, note the Ben Gurion quote in the section on apartheid:

    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf18.html

    Oh, and Mr. Mann, you here? See the section on “genocide”. Note the large increase in Arab population. They must really be stupid, since now they’re going to have even more to cleanse. Should have done it during the Six Day War, if that is the plan.

  • Slappy

    Forget your tour of diversion around the world; and your love of you tube, deal with the issues republican stones and others have raised.

    Still what do you care, by the time the Israeli jews are driven into the sea for placing their trust in Zionists, you and other Zionist wanabes will be off supporting some other crackpot scheme.

  • Ramzi Nohra

    I’ve been to Hama. It sure as f*ck wasnt bulldozed. What happened there seems more equivalent to a Falluja style urban seige.

    Despite the flaws of the state your comments on Syria are way off. Syrians will tell you in private about strong friendships across sectarian groups.

    Also how is Iraq or Malaysia relevant to Israel? To show Isreael is wrong doesnt mean Iraq, Syria or Egypt are right.

    I would disagree that the racism indicated in the Israeli state is only the same as would be encountered in any state, as you suggest. RS answers this point well.

    As regards Israeli arabs, some of them have joined Palestinian resistance groups. However I accept your broader point- a lot of them are better off in the developed country of Israel with parliamentary democracy than an under-developed dictatorship, as would be the case in most of the rest of the Arab world.

    That is an indictment of the Arab world, and would, as I said earlier, act to defend Israel from those who compare them to the NAzis etc.

    However it certainly doesnt justify the level of support they get by Western Governments, the worlds only superpower among them.

  • RepublicanStones

    Thanks for dodging the point there Stones.

    What point have I dodged? You claimed all states are racist. Not I. And yet again you go off on more finger pointing exercises at other unsavoury regimes. You must have missed it, but I’ll say it again…

    Do any of those other regimes you mention recieve a blank cheque each year from the west’s only superpower? Does it have a level of western diplomatic support which is shameful given its record?

    Lastly, why do I care about Avraham? He’s like most of the peace crowd.

    You say ‘peace crowd’ as if its a slur.

    Two problems with that. First, back when Jordan rules West Bank and Egypt the Gaza Strip, Palestinian Arabs crossed the border into Israel and murdered Israelis. So occupation doesn’t explain the phenomenon

    Christ of all mighty…you are aware on whose land israel proper was created are you not?

    So occupation doesn’t explain the phenomenon.

    Really, care to me what does?

    Why aren’t the Arabs in Israel forming their version of the PIRA and the UVF?

    Because of they want to take up the gun they just have to join you know who. Other Palestini…..sorry, Israeli arabs have tried peaceful means to redress the wrongs inflicted on them. Such as the Al-Ard party which was formed in the 1950’s. But you seem Israel brings in innovative legislation to curb even peaceful attempts.

    And why did the one Muslim municipality near Jerusalem vote to remain in Israel and not join any new Palestinian state?

    I take you mean Arab, would that be the people senior israeli politicians continually refer to as a fifth column, the dreaded ‘demographic threat’? And why would they vote themsleves into a Bantustan surrounded on all sides by Israel, who whilst demanding the Palestinians sit down to negociate, continues to eat the pizza they are supposed to negociate over. Not to mention the possibility of being attacked by the ‘Great state’ which surrounds it.

    And btw its funny that the link you provide to the jewish virtual library has got the word myths in it. Because I had a wee gander at the recommended reading for Israel & the Middle East. Didn’t see any Finkelstein or Pappe, or Chomsky for that matter, it did however have this…

    Peters, Joan. From Time Immemorial: The Origins of the Arab-Jewish Conflict over Palestine. J K A P Publications, 2001.

    Oh dear….recommending a site that peddles a known hoax isn’t good for anyones reputation Slappy, especially your own.
    There was also this…

    MYTH
    “Israel discriminates against Israeli Arabs by barring them from buying land.”

    FACT
    In the early part of the century, the Jewish National Fund was established by the World Zionist Congress to purchase land in Palestine for Jewish settlement. This land, and that acquired after Israel’s War of Independence, was taken over by the government. Of the total area of Israel, 92 percent belongs to the State and is managed by the Land Management Authority. It is not for sale to anyone, Jew or Arab. The remaining 8 percent of the territory is privately owned. The Arab Waqf (the Muslim charitable endowment), for example, owns land that is for the express use and benefit of Muslim Arabs. Government land can be leased by anyone, regardless of race, religion or sex. All Arab citizens of Israel are eligible to lease government land.

    Unfortunately it seems Arabs are indeed discriminated against vis a vis land. What this site you link to doesn’t tell us is that the ILA together with the Jewish Agency, JNF etc manages the land on behalf of the state. This therefore results in national discrimination against non-jews as admitted by Hewbrew University Professor David Kretzmer

    “..while entrusted with tasks with are par excellence tasks of a governmental nature, their mandate restricts them to dealing with with the Jewish sector of the Israeli population.”

    Another official has admitted…

    “the Government would have to look after all its citizens if they owned the land; since the Jewish National Fund owns the land, let’s be frank, we can serve just the jewish people.”

    There is an excllent book By John Quigley (The Case For Palestine) which looks at hte conflict from a legal perspective. It includes a chapter on the access to land issue.

    Now you mention quotes from Ben-Gurion, care to explain these little gems from the man himself?

    “I am for compulsory transfer. I do not see anything immoral in it.”

    “When we say that the Arabs are the aggressors and we defend ourselves, that is only half the truth, As regards our security and life we defend ourselves… But the fighting is only one aspect of the conflict, which is in its essence a political one. And politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves.”

  • Brian MacAodh

    Not really the point, but did anyone find it telling that this Hamas military leader was vacationing at a 5 star hotel in Dubai while his “soldiers” live, kill and die in some sh*thole ghetto.

    As for the Irish lobby in the USA, it hasn’t been at all relevant since helping Clinton win a few states in the 1992 Democratic primaries. The Irish lobby is almost nonexistant and don’t have much more influence than a country like Portugal;they certainly shouldn’t be put in the same sentence as the Jewish lobby.