A Scottish Catholic education is anti-sectarian – the latest from the Pope

The Papal broadside on these islands continues, deftly pegged to successive five-yearly ad limina visits to Rome by the national bishops’ conferences. For the Irish it was child abuse scandal and an episcopal revolution. For the English it was about defeating a modest anti discrimination law. Now for the Scots, the Pope puts up a stout defence of Catholic education in “overcoming sectarianism. To which the grand old man of Scottish journalism Magnus Linklater replies: “Up to a point, Your Holiness”. Magnus expresses the problem perfectly. How can you deny choice to Catholics when you desire integration only by consent? There might yet be a way round the dilemma. In Ireland the ground continues to s shift. Labour education spokesman Ruari Quinn put it with exquisite courtesy in a memorable article last week.

Some Catholic schools in Dublin South East require a baptismal certificate for the child and a utility bill in the name of the parents for a dwelling within the parish. Some 90 per cent of the primary schools in Dublin South East have waiting lists. Newborn infants have their names put on a waiting list for schools by parents aware of the local situation. Young new parents or people who grew up in other parts of the country are astounded when they cannot get their children into their local school. For some, the request for a baptismal certificate is an affront, if not a surprise

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The trend seems to be, where the Catholic church is in a massive majority, its institutional control is weakening. Where it is in a sizeable minority, its control is as strong as ever. Choice in Scotland means Catholic; choice in the Republic means pluralism.

  • FitzjamesHorse

    Not exactly sure how there are direct lessons for Norn Iron to be learned from Scotland and the Republic.

    The favoured option of trendy English people and the Great and the Good and the mixed marriage crowd is that “integrated education” is the only answer to Norn Irons problems.

    Not exactly sure how this is supposed to work in Crossmaglen and Bushmills. Or West or East Belfast.
    We already have “State” (de facto Protestant) schools and “Catholic” schools. In our search for trendiness we have Integrated Schools. In our search for Diversity and compliant with our Peace Settlement we have Irish media schools.

    Its a bizarre fact that the demand for Integrated Schooling was a staple of the american Civil Rights Movement. But American trendies at QUB can never undersatnd why there is no big demand for it here…..except with the usual suspects.

    Of course in USA the QUALITY of segregated schools was different but here (allowing for the Grammar School/Secondary Modern divide) there was no discernable lack of quality in say attending Methody or St Dominics.

    The “Integrated Lobby” (and I speak as one who tried the Integrated route for a few years) fails to appreciate that Protstants and Catholic parens are equally aware that 2 plus 2 equals 4 in ANY school.
    But thats not actually the point.
    It is the understandable if flawed view of parents that we would like our children to inherit our views and belief system. With Catholic parents in the North its more about politics than religion.
    And most are perfectly happy that in return for a little religous indoctrination, that more kids end up voting SDLP and SF-IRA than actually going to Mass n Sunday.

    Rightly or wrongly the GFA recognises the existence of TWO communities and its logical that institutions reflect this……painful as it is for The Great And The Good.

  • joeCanuck

    Up to a point, Your Holiness

    Shurely a misprint. Didn’t he say “Up yours, your holiness”?

  • USA

    Good piece by Rauri Quinn.

  • padraig

    [b]The Papal broadside on these islands continues[/b]

    What an extraordinary way of putting things. Stokes a vision of a Papal Armada heading up the North Sea manned by Swiss Guards , blasting of a broadside at the unfortunate cringing Protestant populace. Shades of Lizzie the First and the Spanish Armada.

    When, what I suppose was meant to be an objective journalistic piece kicks of in such an inflammatory way you cringe and realise that what is to follow will be worthy of the bigoted rant of an Orange Grand Master at Finaghy Field or the Master of a Klu Klux Klan Klaven Master somewhere in Alabama.

    Sure enough it was all down hill from there. Civil and Religious liberties being trampled on. Visions of King Billy on his horse. Another dolled up emotional anti Catholic rant.

    Sigh . What else is new? Only in this benighted corner of the world is bigotry so acceptable and , on this forum at least so welcome

  • Comrade Stalin

    If the Pope was instead a US talk show host, he’d be banned from the country.

  • Sure enough it was all down hill from there. Civil and Religious liberties being trampled on. Visions of King Billy on his horse. Another dolled up emotional anti Catholic rant

    Once any religious leader decides to get involved with the temporal as the present Pontiff has done, then he joins the political debate as an equal, not a spiritual leader and his views should be open to the same robust examination as anyone else’s. Walker’s posting are generally full of lamentable tabloid-speak but what he’s written above is not bigotry by any stretch of the imagination unless you believe all of us,Catholic and non-Catholic, should simply tug our forelocks and “Yes, sir” everytime the Pope offers his opinion on our secular state.

    Due to his interventions, gay and humanist groups will be mounting protests to his visit to the UK- does that make them KKK bedfellows as well?

  • padraig

    [i]Once any religious leader decides to get involved with the temporal as the present Pontiff has done, then he joins the political debate as an equal,[/i]

    I am more than a little surprised that on what is a . basically a political forum that all human actions resolve into the political. As one observer said, ‘There is no more deeply political statement we can make than to say, ‘I am not interested in politics”.

    Rather than the Harlot of Rome sailing up the North Sea firing broadsides into defenseless Prods and Gays, it is at the minute I would suggest the modern anti Catholic bigots like Peter Thatchell and Harriet Harmon who are sticking their intolerant noses into Church buisness rather than the other way around. It is they who are making new laws to regulate the Church, it is not the Church that is making new laws to to noble them.

    There is nothing more fashionable or acceptable amongst the ‘liberal,’ ‘progressive’ chattering classes than anti Catholic hate.

    However when you are having a go at the Whore of Rome recall that the Chief Rabbi and the Anglican Bishops in the House of Lords supported the Holy Father in his opposition to the so called ‘Equality Bill’.

  • padraig

    ‘Comrade Stalin’ , I find it interesting that someone who names himself after a mass murderer who killed around 20 million people should be concerned with ‘banning’ a Pope. Interesting as your namesake banned all forms of religious across the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe. It was your hero Stalin too who asked the Question, ‘How many Divisions of the Pope?. ‘ Well history gave him the answer to that one, Communism is in the bin of history and the Church’s Divisions plough on proudly.

  • Panic, these ones like it up em.

    We should have a moratorium on all religion for 15/20 years and see how we get on.

    Something tells me the religions would go to war on that one.

    I only want some time off to contemplate. honest God (oops).

  • I am more than a little surprised that on what is a . basically a political forum that all human actions resolve into the political.

    Once the Pontiff makes a comment on political matters eg Equality legislation, education that puts him in the political sphere. If I comment/criticise his views on such matters, does that, de facto, make me an anti-Catholic bigot.

    Rather than the Harlot of Rome sailing up the North Sea firing broadsides into defenseless Prods and Gays, it is at the minute I would suggest the modern anti Catholic bigots like Peter Thatchell and Harriet Harmon who are sticking their intolerant noses into Church buisness rather than the other way around.

    Tatchell has also taken on Mugabe over his stance, does that make him a racist in your book? He got kicked senseless in Moscow last year standing up for the rights of homosexuals, does that make him an anti-Slav bigot?

  • FitzjamesHorse

    Padraig,
    I agree. Another anti-Catholic rant dressed up as liberal respectability.

  • Marcionite

    Why should religious conscience trump political conscience? If we take this to the logical conclusion, people of a deeply held sexist and racist opinions could be exonorated from adhering to the Sex and Race Relations acts.

    When we elect a civic government, it’s purpose is to make laws as it sees fit to protect and improve the lives of it’s citizens. Churches have no votes and should hold no sway over legislation. If the pope wants to change UK law, let his cardinals form a political party

    While laws cannot force people to stop bring bigots, laws of equality make it a cold house for bigotry which cannot be a bad thing

    Christ, imagine if the pope interfered with the Dail!! We’d never hear the end if it

    also, why are churches so preoccupied with sex anyway? Isn’t causing poverty a dreadful sin to be admonished?

    France forbids religion in education. Noone accuses that nation of illiberalism.

  • Marcionite

    Mr F Horse
    there is a lot to rant at the RC and any other church about. are you saying the RC church should be treated with kid gloves?

    If there are republicans or nationalists here, tell me this : why is British secular imperialism so objectionable but Roman spiritual imperialism so welcome?

    Lots of religion about but little spirituality. Anyone who takes their moral cue from a man who voluntary joined Hitler youth (many didn’t, it wasn’t a death sentence not to. He did it to get on) whose head of a church whose mindcontrol causes thousands if unneccessary deaths from AIDS in Africa , needs to take a long hard think and come to your own conclusions and not just slavishly take your parents beliefs like some hand me down item if clothing

    surely you would not imagine taking on your parents or
    ancestors musical or fashion tastes so why their religion? Isn’t spirituality too important for that kind if non thinking?

    One does not

  • padraig

    I repeat, it is not the Pope who is framing new legislation to upset the constitutional status quo vis a vis Religion/State relationships. It is the State, in the form of he Social engineering Zeliot Harriet Harmon who was in a intolerant manner telling people like the Chief Rabbi and th Holy Father wee their theology was wrong.

    When a liberal fanatic gets herself appointed Chief Rabbi, Archbishop of Canterbury or Bishop of Rome then I’ll listen to her views on sexual perversion, not before. Till then she should keep her political nose out of religious affairs.

  • smellybigoxteronye

    This discussion has gone completely off-topic here.

    The reality is that in Northern Ireland the insistence on separate Catholic and state schools is one of the single largest causes of division in our society, ingraining bigotry and intolerance of the “others” from a young age. Even though he was referring to Scotland the same principle applies here, and the Pope is completely and utterly off his rocker on this one – he couldn’t be more wrong.

    I wish instead of towing their own pro-Catholic/nationalist sectarian line that many posters here could be a bit more objective about this, and look to solutions for the long-term greater good.

    I agree with an above poster that I don’t see the current integrated schools option as working, unless ALL schools become integrated. This is easy for state schools, as they are already mixed (admittedly, not anywhere near to the same extent as society) and not faith focused. I’ve noticed several state schools changing their name to incorporate the word “integrated”, however, not once have I noticed a Catholic school doing the same (just my own observation – if someone has some hard statistics then I’d we welcome to see them). Here-in lies our problem – perhaps the French idea of enforcing a complete separation of religion form education is indeed the only solution, but that would require the maturity to realise that this does not mean that religious expression and teaching in society should be any worse – somehow, unfortunately, I think this level of maturity is something that our society completely lacks – I can only dream.

  • The situation with regard to confessional education in France is not much different in principle from Scotland or Northern Ireland. The salaries of teachers in Catholic schools are fully funded by the state, but students are entitled to ‘opt-out’ of religious instruction classes.

  • padraig

    [i]The reality is that in Northern Ireland the insistence on separate Catholic
    and state schools is one of the single largest causes of division in our
    society, ingraining bigotry and intolerance of the “others” from a young
    age.[/i]

    I hate that phrase, ‘The reality of the situation is’, its totally meaningless. Ian Paisley keeps saying it every other sentence as a vacuous oratorical device to garner time to gather whatever little brains he has together. Do me a favour and think about not using it, it means nothing and is aggravating.

    Now as to your claims that religious education leads to bigotry, where is your evidence. I mean hard scientific evidence, not anecdotal, Mrs Brown down at Tesco’s says so…Making a huge, sweeping assertion like this without producing evidence seems intellectually very,very slack

    Also why when we have had separate religious education is say the USA not led to sectarianism.

  • “Till then she should keep her political nose out of religious affairs.”

    Then get your religious guru to keep his nose out of my state’s political affairs. If you’re gullible enough to follow his guidelines, then fine, nothing preventing you, but both he and you have no right to dictate how the rest of us live.

  • Marcionite

    Padraig, you are a homophobic bigot. Harrier Harman was elected by people from all religions, colours and creeds to hold office and enact law.

    Moderators I would like to object to Padraigs description of homosexuality as a perversion. Not only is this a statement of bigotry, it is inciteful and it’s legality in question. I would like to request he be censured

  • Marcionite

    Someone made the point about religious denomination schools in USA not leading to sectarianism. Really? No anti RCism when Kennedy took charge? Islamaphobia being whipped up? The USA had the race issue as their faultline for generations. Kennedy/Johnston used the army tobforce integration. AND it was against the will of the white parents but Kennedy viewed the opinions of those who divide society as having less merit than those who seem to unite society

    if you believe in Santa, go for it but don’t be segregating your offspring based on this belief. Keep your religion at home and in your place of worship.

  • Comrade Stalin

    ‘Comrade Stalin’ , I find it interesting that someone who names himself after a mass murderer who killed around 20 million people should be concerned with ‘banning’ a Pope.

    Tsh. Some people have no sense of humour.

    Interesting as your namesake banned all forms of religious across the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe. It was your hero Stalin too who asked the Question, ‘How many Divisions of the Pope?. ’ Well history gave him the answer to that one, Communism is in the bin of history and the Church’s Divisions plough on proudly.

    I appreciate the lecture on history.

    “Proudly”, that’s how you describe successive popes and bishops systematically covering up systematic sexual abuse by priests ?

  • smellybigoxteronye

    Shane, yes indeed in principle it is almost the same, though not quite. I think it should be taken further than just merely being able to “opt-out” – instead, an opt-IN.

    Currently, in some state schools already, certain children who are from a Church of Ireland background have a separate minister who comes to the school every week and makes a small morning service. However, normal religious education classes are still all taken together (these usually are taught as a general Christian class, not focusing on any particular branch, and also in later years covering other religions such as Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism etc.). However, I think this should be taken even further, as I can remember our zealous Christian RE teacher downplaying Hinduism and reincarnation as a lot of nonsense – hardly the most objective handling of the topic.

    My proposal would be to take the visiting preacher idea even further – general religious services or prayers should NOT be done by the school in any form (I always felt that the headmaster giving general Christian prayer services in a state school to the whole assembly every morning was a form of backwards Christian indoctrination). Time could be allocated every week where preachers from all major faiths in the local area could come to the school and give services to those children who’s parents had OPTED-IN to a service from a particular faith. The church members could be also responsible for some of the Religious Education curriculum. However, at a later stage of the curriculum when multiple religions are covered, I think this could be handled by the school more objectively than by an external preacher.

    Padraig, yes – I hate that phrase too – was thinking of Gerry (either of the Gerrys) when I wrote it cringing at the same time, but thought that the target audience wouldn’t mind 😉

    Padraig, you have got me completely wrong here – I am not claiming that “religious education leads to bigotry” – I am claiming that SEPARATE education ENFORCES bigotry. As to your request for evidence, I think you are being a bit disingenuous here, as I think it’s the sort of thing that is extremely obvious, but complex human psychology like this is completely impossible to give “evidence” for. My opinion is formed from my own personal interactions with various friends from different backgrounds and schools, mainly from my University days at QUB when I could compare and contrast the different pre-University experiences and ways of thinking of my peers. If a lot of society would be given the opportunities to interact with their peers from across the divide in their earlier years, as I could do with mine in my later years, then I think that society would be in a much healthier shape.

    Padraig, I believe the USA does not have the same sectarian problems as Ireland, because in the USA there is a clear secular separation between church and state. In the south of Ireland the Catholic church has always had a special place in the state, and many powerful institutions throughout the state. Traditionally, the northern state has been an anti-catholic reaction to the extremely catholic south. Perhaps one of the best solutions to our problems would be to in fact push for secularism on a cross-border basis?

  • Comrade Stalin

    Marcionite:

    Moderators I would like to object to Padraigs description of homosexuality as a perversion. Not only is this a statement of bigotry, it is inciteful and it’s legality in question. I would like to request he be censured

    I disagree completely with your suggestion that he be censured. The bigotry and duplicity of the church’s apologists needs to remain in full public view. Please, keep Padraig talking. His spittle-flecked intolerance only helps to advance the cause of those of us who think the world should be a plural, tolerant, dignified, and secular place.

  • padraig

    Marcionite,

    The Cathechism of the Catholic Church teaches on Homosexuality the same thing as it taught for two thousands years, the same thing the Jewish faith for thousands of years previously, the same thing that billions of right thinking people of all faiths all over the world believe that homosexuality is a perversion:

    [i]2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as [b]acts of grave depravity,[/b]140 tradition has always declared that “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.”141 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved. [/i]

    If you are going to throw people off this forum for placing forward their sincere religious beliefs you might as well close up shop and take up tiddlywinks.

    The laughable thing about this is that intolerant lunatics like Marcionite has probably been going round patting himself on the back for how ‘liberal’ and ‘open minded’ he is, when he is clearly a close minded zealiot.

    The Catholic Catechism calls it grace depravity and thats what it is. This is still supposed to be a democracy not a stage for a lot of crazy liberal lunacy.

  • Comrade Stalin

    I don’t need to contribute any more to this thread. Padraig is making my point for me.

  • willis

    grace depravity? oxymoron?

  • padraig

    Shut him up or run away from the discussion.

    Interesting.

    [i]I have seen great intolerance shown in support of tolerance.
    Samuel Taylor Coleridge[/i]

  • Marcionite

    ah yes, I’m a bigot. I’m gay and have an partner born in Vietnam. I have friends and employees from all backgrounds. Yes I am typical of the kind of person whose political and social outlook can lead to oppression and concentration camps being built.

    Those old books that were written millenia ago by heat stroked old men with bad memories in the Middle East really are an excellent guide to how to organise and rule a 21st century complex multi lifestyle multi ethnic society.

    Padraig, sure you’re not our very own homegrown loony Gerry McGeough (the fascist with the face like Benny Hill)?

    I pity people like you who ignore the words of love Jesus preached and seem to revel in the bleak violence of the old Testament. Killing adulterers was also preached in that book. Do you advocate the same?

    Really Padraig, you probably are a lovely big hunk who’d Id probably want to give a big hug to if I met you at the back of a churchyard but I’m sure you don’t believe you’re own nonsense.

  • “The church members could be also responsible for some of the Religious Education curriculum. However, at a later stage of the curriculum when multiple religions are covered, I think this could be handled by the school more objectively than by an external preacher.”

    smellybigoxteronye, one of the problems with religious education curricula is that there can be competing interpretations even within denominations over doctrines and stances [ eg Traditionalist Catholics who repudiate the Second Vatican Council, Old CAlendarists Orthodox who repudiate the Gregorian calendar, Free Presbyterians who repudiate ecumenism etc etc]. The Core syllabus for RE in Northern Ireland is concentrated on an (very constructivist) overview of generic ‘Christianity’, from which many Christians might dissent. In Quebec there has been huge controversy over the implementation of the province’s official (and mandatory) religious education curriculum, with various denominations (including the Catholic Church) alleging that their religious beliefs are misrepresented or biased towards a more liberal faction within that religion.

    I support the existence of publicly funded denominational schools. Even for non-believers I do think a little knowledge of religion (useful for understanding history, art, architecture, international relations etc) is crucial, but I dislike the idea of a state/teacher sanitized version, which is often what happens with general religious curricula.

  • If you are going to throw people off this forum for placing forward their sincere religious beliefs you might as well close up shop and take up tiddlywinks

    You’d have no problem defending Wilson’s and Arlene Foster’s decision not to attend Cathal Daly’s funeral due to their sincere religious beliefs? If so, then fine, your own beliefs, however twisted I may believe them to be, deserve to be at listened to.

  • FitzjamesHorse

    Marcionite,
    Lke I say some like yourself dress anti Catholic bigotry up in quasi Liberalism.
    You appear to have missed my point that the SPIRITUAL values of Catholic education are FOR MANY PARENTS secondary to the secular values (Republicanism/Nationalism Irish culture among them) which is equally important.

    I dont think many “Catholic parents” IN NORN IRON would be overly concerned if their 20 year old son turned Muslim, Agnostic, Athiest, Buddhist or Presbyterian.
    But for many having a son who voted for the Alliance Party would be traumatic.
    Thats the reason Catholic schools exist.

  • smellybigoxteronye

    shane, I agree with the fact that there will be differences in religious interpretation. Maybe I was not clear in my previous post, but my idea was that at earlier stages of the curriculum, or stages of the curriculum open to different Christian interpretations, that teaching of Religious Education should be performed by a preacher belonging to each child’s (opt-in) faith of choice. The “sanitized” version that you mention would only apply to non-believers and sections covering worldwide religions.

    Another reason that I would be against denominational schools is that I think that it is much more healthy for children to go to a local school where they are taught and inspired by a majority of teachers who have lived normal lives and had to deal with real-world situations, rather than being educated by a majority of religious fanatics (something we have too many of in NI) who have lived celibate lives that are likely to be completely different to the lives that the children live when they leave school.

  • padraig

    Yes Marcionite.

    You’re really, really tolerant and open minded.

    You just want to shut me up by having me thrown off the forum because…………..errr I’m a lovely big hunk maybe?

    As Voltaire once famously said, ‘I disagree with what you say , but I’ll defend to the death you’re right yo say it’

    Freedom of speech does not include only those with whom we agree, that’s the easy part

  • smellybigoxteronye

    FitzjamesHorse, so would I be right in saying that you actually disagree with the Pope and think that a Catholic education IS sectarian?

  • Marcionite

    Fitzjameshorse Pleae enlighten me, what exactly is a SPIRITUAL education outside of the subject of R.E? Is there a special RC way of teaching Mathematics that differs from that taught by others?

    Is there a special SPIRITUAL RC way of teaching the past historic tense of French verbs that goes awry when taught by the heretics? I can go on…?

    I apply the same questins to ANY confessional/faith school of any denomination.

    I was brought up RC and went to their schools. Spirituality was scant to say the very least. Not fielding an interschool’s soccer and rugby team cos they were ‘foreign’ sports and looking down the noses at those who weren’t GAA mafia was the modus operandi of the day. I hear similar pettiness from friends who went to faith schools of other denominations but not.

    I have never ever heard a coherent argument for faith schools.

    Padraig People like you are quick to quote Voltaire. Have you ever heard of Incitement to Hatred? Many nations in the free world have such a law. Your comments about homosexuality being peverse are inexecusable. Are you saying its ok to discriminate against in jobs against gay people? Why should civis jobs within churches be immune to the laws of the state anyway?

    To me, your comments about being peverse is up there with racism. Free speech is allowed of course but I was grossly offended by your bigoted comments. Like I mentioned before , what is it with religious zealots and their obsession with sexuality? Does it mask frustration of their own in this personal realm and it manifests itself with hatred for those who are free of the old shackles?

    Fitzjameshorse Yes, I do slap myself on the back for being unashamedly liberal and looking down my nose at people who have yet to climb the ladders of more sophisticated reasoning.

    I do happen to agree with your last comment however but as a white man, would a racist be free to call a blackman the ‘N’ word on this forum and would it be wrong of a blackman to complain about this and would a blackman be a bigot for not wanting to be called the pejerative ‘N’ word?

  • Marcionite

    By the way, since scripture is being quoted at me by someone who would probably claim to be a follower of Jesus, a man who preached love, (hard to see the spirit of Christ in your comments my friend Padraig, you are good at the legalisms of the Bible but the spirit of Jesus is far from your comments) the following is the basis of my Marcionite faith which is something I take into all aspects of my life

    [a href=http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Marcionism[/a]

    I am planning on founding a denomination based on Marcionism, the pared down, basic word of love of Christ, the man after whom Christianity was named.

    It is not for nothing that Christianity is not called Moses-ianity.

    I will be planning Marcionite faith schools however somewhere down the line. This may seem hypocritical of me but it not because my faith is the TRUE path of enlightenment.

  • Circa 1991 when I studied in Glasgow, Cardinal Winning opposed the amalgamation of a State and a Catholic school in one area on the grounds of ethos. The result was the closure of both and the busing of children to out of district schools – destroying that community in order to “save” it.

  • padraig

    Marcionite,

    I am curious , what scripture did I quote?

    You appear to be mixing me up with someone else. since I never quoted scripture.

    Of course homosexuality is perverse. Many homosexuals bear the title, ‘Queer’ with pride for exactly that reason and call hetrosexuals ‘straight’ for exactly the same reason. To argue otherwise is bizarre. To be perverse is deliberately deviating from what is regarded as normal, which by definition is what homosexuals do. Rather than argue ilogically against logic you should do what many others do and be proud of this perversion rather than pretend it doesn’t exist.

    As to being a heretic against plitical correctnes, well I am rather proud of being perverse in his regard myself and long may I continue to be so.

    By the way how is your little campaign to have me censored and thrown of the forum going; any luck?

  • Paddy

    More Orange bile. Go listen to George Galloway’s programme. He tells of Catholic schools getting a half day off in West Scotland after the first Catholic managed to get a job in a bank.

    Catholic schools have been the foundation of pluralism everywhere in the English speaking world. This is one of the main reasons sectarian apologists have been so opposed to them.

    Brian Walker: if you are not a Catholic and if you are from an anti Catholic background, you should STFU. Alternatively post your bile on a Rangers/UFF supporters’ club site.

  • Paddy

    And the observations of multi millionares prawn sandwich has beens like Ruairi Quinn don’t add much light either. No baptism cert, no entry seems fair to me.

    In Britain, the best schools are denominational. A pity the atheists sell their non existent souls to get their kids in.

    The worst, if not only vrime this Pope did was letting Tony Bliar join the Church.

  • FitzjamesHorse

    Marcionite
    Anti Catholic bigotry is no more acceptable in Polly Toynbe type liberals than it is in the Kneebreakers. Dressing it up in a veneer of respectability that you abhor those less intelligent than yourself is not an attractive feature.
    Like I said I tried the Integrated route for four years and if I learned anything it is that a good school is a good school and a bad school is a bad school in any system.
    Funnily enough the tipping point came when they tried to introduce Gaelic Football into the school. My view that this was against the ethos of the school….that we had kids from police backgrounds and the school should NOT encourage that kinda thing (the GAA has of course changed its ruling since then).
    The bizarre thing was that the school actually brought in two people from I think the “Northern Ireland Sports Council” to actually talk to us about the different ethos of different sports.
    I hate being talked down to.
    I just felt it was wrong that a sport be introduced into a school if a parent could not play it. Was he expected to go along and watch his son play?
    You seemed to have missed my point that 2 plus 2 equals 4 in ANY school.
    That there is NO SPIRITUAL DIMENSION to ANYTHING other than RE.
    My point is about History (shamefully sidestepped in my experience of Integration) and also about wanting our children to be an extension of ourselves. My point being that I could not care less about my children adopting ANY spirituality but if they ever voted Alliance……..sheesh what a thought!.
    When I sent my kids to school, I was under the impression that teachers were acting IN LOCO PARENTIS. I daresay a TUV voting teacher can teach maths as well as an Alliance voting teacher or a Sinn Féin voting teacher…..and in a school where theres seven or eight subjects daily I would not have wanted my kids in an environment where I felt the under UNDUE PRESSURE (note emphasis) to conform to any ETHNIC OR POLITICAL ethos.
    Like I say dont give a tinkers curse whether they can define the doctrine of Transubstantiation or start nailing their theories up on German cathedrals.

    The majority of “Protstant” or “unionist” parents dont particuarly want their kids becoming nationalists and are not overly bothered about the religious felings of their kids.
    Whether you or I approve or disapprove of the notion that parents want their children to be part of a continuum ….is not the point.
    Thats how most people feel.
    And in a society where peace is based on TWO communities, the logical choice is seperated education.

  • Gerry Lvs castro

    @Padraig: As to being a heretic against plitical correctnes, well I am rather proud of being perverse in his regard myself and long may I continue to be so.

    Padraig how proud are you of the ultimate perversion — that of the rape and sexual assault of children? Not just once but on a global scale?
    Not just denied but tolerated by an organisation purporting to be the very representatives of God on earth? Covered up and denied by every branch of a church hierarchy?

    Would you feel that the head of such an organisation has the moral authority to dictate sexual matters to anyone?

  • Prionsa Eoghann

    Mark Dowling

    Cardinal Winning(God rest his soul) happened to be speaking for the vast majority of Catholic parents who wanted to retain Catholic schools, their choice. In his time many schools have managed to share campuses with almost no problems. Although a classic laugh or cry objection of some idiotic parents at one campus, against Christ on the cross at the shared entrance led to calls for the Queen to be put up beside Jesus. I’ll need to check if that was ever resolved.

    The argument against Catholic schools(and voiced here-is it compulsory btw?) is that Catholic schools are the biggest(or one of) causes of sectarianism. I have even heard bigots on radio Scotland almost tearfully going on about wee Johnny being split up from his best pal at nursery to go to different schools. Seems to me the only parts of the world objecting to catholic schools are the north of Ireland and the west of Scotland. Go figure!

    At my weans school there is easily over a third of the kids non-Catholics, unheard of at my primary 20 odd years ago to even have one. So wee Johnny’s parents can join the growing number of non-Catholic parents desperate to get their children a Christian education at a Catholic school in Scotland.

    I am all for equality. Does it make sense though that the Catholic adoption agency has to fold because they are no longer allowed the option of reffering a 62yr old male to female father of 3 and his 22yr old female to male partner to another agency?

  • FitzjamesHorse

    Unfortunately many Elizabethans believe that catholic Irish ate their young.
    In my youth, Saturday night edition of Belfast Telegraph carried adverts for Church services where strange bigoted little men would invite us to hear about the Whore of Babylon and all that.

    Not very sophisticated.
    Now all that stuff can be dressed up in a liberal stance by saying “Ive read Angelas Ashes”.

  • Prionsa Eoghann

    Fitzy

    They used to have public meetings in Glasgow theatres where escaped nuns would regale the audience of the horrors and wickedness of the Catholic church. The odd time some gallus mischevious soul would during audience questions ask what order they were from/what colour of vestments is used at lent etc. From the stories I’ve read I don’t think any passed the questions convincingly.

    All they had to do was wait a generation or two for the stories of children and wimmen who did suffer to come to light.

  • Democrat

    There was a request earlier for some evidence to support comments. Try this.

    The long-term consequences of religious segregation were described by Rosemary Harris back in 1986 when she showed how social division in childhood sets a pattern which shapes adult social life.

    Likewise, the Education and Community Study of 1989 found that schools here were islands of sectarian isolation – neither pupils nor teachers had much contact with their counterparts across the sectarian divide.

    The recent psychological study by Professor Stringer and his team at the UU has shown that informal mixing in the classroom builds bridges across the sectarian divide more effectively than any teacher-driven activities (see http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article6736287.ece)

    Our society is riven by sectarian prejudice. Ending the apartheid in our schools is one of the most effective steps that we can take to reduce sectarian prejudice.

    There should be no state funding for religiously segregated schools. All state-funded schools should be religiously neutral, having no affiliation to any particular religion. Equal Opportunities legislation should be applied to schools (at present they are exempt – why?) so that no school is allowed to have its staff from one religious background. The staffs of state-funded schools should be mixed and Equal Opportunities legislation should be applied with vigour to bring that situation about. Names of schools and school uniforms should also be changed to break with sectarian traditions and to reflect the new integrated identity of all state schools.

    Then, maybe, one day we shall escape from all the sectarian labelling and confrontation that goes on in this society.

  • padraig

    Well, ‘Gerry Lvs castro’, since the priests involved were homosexuals and since repeated studies have shown the clearest links between homosexuals and paedophilia I will bow to your obviously superior knowledge in the matter.

  • Gerry Lvs castro

    Nice issue dodging padraig — regardless of your dubious ‘studies’ (no girls abused by priests eh? news to the rest of us), the burning issue is how the church hierarchy dealt with the problem of large numbers of paedophiles in their midst
    .
    Rather than reporting them to the law of the land, or even at the very least dismissing them, we find cover up after cover up — endless examples of church prestige being put before the most basic rights of children. If that isn’t immorality on a grand scale I’d like to know what is. Bad enough had it occurred in a secular organisation such as the GAA or the Scouts but a million times worse in a organisation of supposedly moral guardians who now seek to lecture the rest of us on matters of sexuality and equality.

    I do admire your neck in attempting to defend, spin and deflect, but you’re on a hiding to nothing my friend. The organisation you support is corrupt, hypocritical and immoral.

  • padraig

    An anti Catholic bigot like yourself GC will always use an issue like this to defame the Catholic Church, which you in your Orange Bile clearly hate.

    Tell me since you’re such an Orange expert on paedophilia what you made of Kincora and your own Orange Brethren’s involvement in that, you hypocrite

  • Gerry Lvs castro

    Nice try padraig, but quite apart from the fact that I have zero interest in or sympathy for the OO (if they disbanded tomorrow and never marched again I could care less), I don’t need to be an ‘anti-Catholic bigot’ to recognise rank hypocrisy and to condemn the concealment of paedophilia, any more than I need to hate glam rock to be disgusted by gary glitter.

    I don’t need to ‘defame’ the catholic church — they have done a startingly good job of that all by themselves. We’re not talking about a few dodgy finiancial dealings defaming’ the church padraig, we’re talking institutionalised child abuse topped off with the most cynical and self-serving cover up and abject failure to protect the most vulnerable members of their own faith ie children.

    For the record I have no more respect for the child rapists of kincora than the child rapists of the catholic church — equally if any of their hierarchy attempted to lecture me or anyone else on matters of morality I would treat them with the contempt they fully deserve.

    Wanting to protect the most basic human rights of children as well as safeguard the equality of women and homosexuals does not require bigotry padraig — it merely requires humanity.

  • padraig

    Thank you for acknowledging that there is a problem in the Orange Order too, as in fact there is in all institutions; that was honest of you GC.

    In fact most child sex abuse occurs in the family, carried out by relatives or those who are close to the victims. This fact is blurred by the focus on the ‘stranger danger’ of predatory paedophiles, ignoring the fact that, as one eminent researcher has said, ‘bad men don’t get near to children–nice guys do.’ In Britain an average of eight children die at the hands of a stranger every year, whilst a child dies every three days at the hands of a family member. The family is the most dangerous place for children–between the ages of one and five it is the most common place for a child to be killed. In 1995 the chances of being murdered if you were under one year old was almost double the national average and children of that age were most at risk of being killed by a parent.

  • Comrade Stalin

    I just felt it was wrong that a sport be introduced into a school if a parent could not play it. Was he expected to go along and watch his son play?

    I suspect the majority of parents when I was at St Malachy’s did not play GAA.

  • padraig

    …and the institution the family….. from which the vast majority of child abuse occurs… your deep, deep views on this?

  • FitzjamesHorse

    Comrade Stalin….well Ive seen St Malachys play. I dont blame the parents for not watching.
    I think (as you do with regularity) miss the point ….
    parents NOT playing GAA is one thing.
    parents BANNED by the GAA from playing it is another.

    Got it?

  • Gerry Lvs castro

    The argument of defelection, of ‘yes but look at themmuns’ is apparently the only card you’re capable of playing padraig.

    I have at no time suggested that child abuse is confined to the catholic church. What I have suggested is that an infinitely higher standard of behaviour and morality is expected from an organisation purporting to be God’s representatives on earth.

    You abjectly fail to explain why a catholic church presided over by the same old crew who oversaw, concealed and excused the most disgusting child abuse, should somehow have a moral authority to lecture the rest of us on morality. Any thoughts?

  • wee buns

    GLC
    ‘corrupt, hypocritical and immoral’ perfectly describes the CC…but you forgot ‘beyond reproach’.

    People can hold whatever beliefs they want, but keep them away from the children please.

  • padraig

    especially in 90 per cent of the times their parents…………………

  • padraig

    their own parents……………

  • padraig

    …..instead of society around them..everybody else, in other words…

  • Gerry Lvs castro

    I’ll take that as a no then padraig. Thanks for playing.

  • padraig

    Thanks for addressing my point..about child abuse in the family….

    You took up the fact that 90 per cent of child abuse takes place in the family

    You argued why that should be…..

    You proposed solutions….

    You are like a God to me…..

    Thanks very much for your time and wisdom….

  • @padraig

    “repeated studies have shown the clearest links between homosexuals and paedophilia”

    Name one that has been published in Lancet, NEJM, Nature or a comparable publication.

  • padraig

    Mark,

    Since it is an undoubted fact that by far the majority of paedophilic acts are committed by men on boys I am genuinely curious as to your insights into the causal link as to why this might be?

    Also I would be interested as to views as to what kind of pressures a Magazine Editor of a scientific journal might be under in publishing studies that were controversial in that would not be considered politically correct?

  • Gerry Lvs castro

    Still struggling with my 10.22pm question padraig? Truly by ducking out you are indeed a stout defender of the catholic church.

  • padraig

    I answered it, Gc . not the answer you wanted, so you didn’t bother reading it.

  • Padraig,

    In fact most child sex abuse occurs in the family, carried out by relatives or those who are close to the victims. This fact is blurred by the focus on the ‘stranger danger’ of predatory paedophiles, etc etc

    Among your other sins…bit of a plagarist aren’t you?:

    http://pubs.socialistreviewindex.org.uk/sr244/waterson.htm

  • Gerry Lvs castro

    ‘You abjectly fail to explain why a catholic church presided over by the same old crew who oversaw, concealed and excused the most disgusting child abuse, should somehow have a moral authority to lecture the rest of us on morality. Any thoughts?’

    Perhaps you answered this on a different thread padraig as it certainly isn’t on this one.

  • Padraig – great comeback. I guess you think carbon dioxide is “just plant food” and the MSM are too afraid to print Obama’s birth certificate too?