Bloody Sunday latest

Eamonn McCann who has covered every aspect of Bloody Sunday from that day to this, foreshadows publication of the Saville report on March 22. Whether the date will be met or a further delay will be caused for the government to proof read it for human rights, security, getting the page numbers right, the general election etc etc remains to be seen. Eamonn now admits he was wrong at the time to ascribe the motive for the 1 Para operation to an attempt save Brian Faulkner’s government. But he continues to explain Lord Saville’s tortuously long exercise thus:

The tribunal was tasked to look for the truth not only about Bloody Sunday as a single episode but about each individual killing and wounding, of which there were 27. The evidence might lead to a finding of unlawful killing in one instance, of self-defence in another. The only way of determining which fell into which category was to study the evidence given at the time, question surviving eyewitnesses and summon what forensic evidence remained.

Is it right that Saville was bound to take this approach? Louis Blom Cooper QC a lawyer with a strong human rights practice disputes it with an opinion not universally appreciated in Derry

“Was it necessary to target the individual soldiers and inflict on them individually the most serious criticism — as distinct from a collective responsibility — having regard to the ambit of an inquiry into an event 30 years ago, with the prospect of a lengthy investigation and commensurately high cost?”

Given the 27 year time lapse from the event to the start of the inquiry, with its risk of failing memories and the dearth of forensic evidence, Blom Cooper’s point seems plausible. A failure to attribute specific causes to the 14 deaths would be beyond anti-climax in the circumstances. Hopefully Saville will explain all whenever the time comes.

  • FitzjamesHorse

    “Given the 27 year time lapse from the event to the start of the inquiry, with its risk of failing memories and the dearth of forensic evidence”

    Ah Mr Walker this is the kind of thing that critics will say on publication but alas many who will criticise will be the very people who resisted an inquiry for…27 years. Obviously you wont fall into that category.

    But Eamonn McCann…what would we do without him?
    If he didnt exist, we would have to invent him. The English have Stephen Fry as a “national treasure” and we have Eamonn McCann.

  • Marcionite

    Eamonn McCann – Derry’s oldest teenager as Nell McCafferty called him. A wonderful man, a great independant mind. We don’t hear an awful lot from him in recent times. I hope he’s ok.

    I wonder what will happen if the report is another Saville. What will happen if it perturbs the Unionists? Either way, the new Inquiry will produce a report than cannot be a fudge. The fence is too razor sharp to be sat on.

  • Alias

    Cooper’s question is self-answering. If some of the killings were murders and some were self-defence, then failing to distinguish between them would have the consequence that all soldiers would be deemed guilty of offences that only some committed or all would be cleared of offences of which some were guilty. Either way, justice would not be done.

    It’s quite possible that the Shinners tried to get the soldiers to fire on the crowd. They used similar tactics to get the loyalists to attack Catholics, thereby creating the impression among the Catholics that they needed the Shinners to defend them from the loyalists.

  • An Phoblacht Abu

    He is still around, hanging around in Sandino’s bar in Derry recruiting gullible teenagers to Trotskyist crap until they know better.

  • Paddy

    Alias: Your line is a consistent one peddled by apologists for state terrorism for many years.The British Parachute Regiment are like the Waffen SS (though lacking their bravery). They are assault troops, not peace keeping forces. And, in the case of Bloddy Sunday, they are war criminals.

    The British and the Americans refuse to accept that they breed war criminals. The Americans have even written it into international agreements that their war criminals cannot be prosecuted for the war criminals that they are.

    The few bad apples, the white man’s burden and all that.

  • Alias

    Paddy, your line is one peddled by lynch mobs wherever their dismal ilk is domiciled.

    The Shinners have “form” when it comes to engineering support among the Catholics for their sectarian murder campaign. Atrocities specifically aimed at Protestants were designed to provoke a backlash against the Catholic community.

    That allowed the Shinners to pose as the defenders of the Catholic community when the reality is that they were engineering attacks against that community.

  • aquifer

    The provided defiance, not defence so much.

    It was left to the RUC to catch the prod assassins.

    And they often did.

  • Panic, these ones like it up em.

    Alias said

    ” The Shinners have “form” when it comes to engineering support among the Catholics for their sectarian murder campaign. Atrocities specifically aimed at Protestants were designed to provoke a backlash against the Catholic community ”

    We/You could chase our tails from now to eternity on that.

    Themuns made me do it……………on to infinity

  • Framer

    IRA and UDA deliberately murder 3,000 people.

    Army and police kill 300 almost all in conflict.

  • Marcionite

    Old tactic, engineering attacks on your own and whipping up your people into war. Old as history itself. The most flagrant one was 9/11. How come a perfectly intact passport was found (the only one I might add off all the passengers) and lo and behold, it belongs to one of the Al Quaeda guys.

    Back to Ballyblighty, both sides did this, whattabouttery is futile.

  • Medillen

    ‘IRA and UDA deliberately murder 3,000 people.

    Army and police kill 300 almost all in conflict.

    Posted by Framer on Feb 03, 2010 @ 09:19 PM’

    Almost all in conflict – please expalin?

  • Medillen

    Typo: Explain Please

  • tacapall

    It’s quite possible that the Shinners tried to get the soldiers to fire on the crowd.
    Posted by Alias on Feb 03, 2010 @ 06:09 PM

    Catch yourself on Alias does that even sound logical, Yeah Sinn Fein got the Brits to open fire on their own people killing children, priests, and elderly. Its obvious you are a Unionist with a big U that is the most crass statement I’ve heard in a long time.

    They used similar tactics to get the loyalists to attack Catholics, thereby creating the impression among the Catholics that they needed the Shinners to defend them from the loyalists.

    So now they made loyalists murder innocent catholics as well. Sounds like the typical Unionist response to loyalist terrorism – it reactionary somehow make it ok does it. Give us some examples of this form Alias.

  • slappymcgroundout

    “Old as history itself. The most flagrant one was 9/11. How come a perfectly intact passport was found (the only one I might add off all the passengers) and lo and behold, it belongs to one of the Al Quaeda guys.”

    They also found an intact United Airlines frequent flyer card belonging to Lisa Anne Frost. Was near where her right hip was found. Seems likely that she used her card and didn’t bother to put it back into her purse but in her one back pocket instead. By the way, since no one claiming terror attack used the passport to convince us that such was so, why plant the passport? You plant the thing because you intend on using the thing as evidence. Didn’t do that here, which is why most humans reading this were blissfully unaware of the intact passport until you introduced the matter.

    Lastly, here is some footage:

    Note the damage along the side of the tower facing us going from left to right, as we would expect giving the path of the plane. Now notice when the fireball appears. So crash into the tower, the plane keeps moving forward through the tower and then the avgas ignites when the plane is almost at the other end of the tower. That’s how some things survived, i.e., they became separated from the mass of the plane and then were blown clear when the avgas ignited.

  • Brian Walker

    Conspiracy theorists will never die. A £2 billion inquiry would make no difference. What a chorus will greet publication of the Saville report. For them,the world must be a far more frightening and chaotic place than it is for the rest of us, the only compensationn being they share the secrets of Joanna Southcott’s box.
    http://www.btinternet.com/~joannasouthcott/

  • Secret Squirrel

    Sorry to go somewhat off topic folks.
    Whilst there’s no denying the fact, two planes certainly struck the Twin Towers on Sept 11th; whatever happened to the titanium engines which supposedly hit the Pentagon the same day ?

    Titanium has a melting point above 1600 degrees Centigrade.(a fact)
    Jet fuel cannot reach temperatures higher than 1150 degrees Centigrade.(a fact)

    The ‘official’ story (a theory ) is that the engines were vapourised.

  • Paddy

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/february/4/newsid_4148000/4148933.stm

    It is easy to mock, to do the old jokes the Ancients knew about: magnification, miniaturisation, comparing to kooks etc. The 2nd Paras are Britain’s Waffen SS. Fact.

    Just like Iraq, the Brits are allowed to dictate the terms of their own enquiries.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Round and round the recriminations go, when they’ll stop, no one knows… All the scab picking and “them’uns started it” only serve to sustain themselves.

    As for the conspiracy theories, there are always going to be fringe personalities who think they know better than conventional wisdom. Occasionally, they’re even right.

    That said, 9/11 as inside job doesn’t scan, for a couple reasons, starting with human nature — no secret that big could stay in the black bag. Additionally, why is it the wise folks who always see the truth are unable to convince major engineering organizations and the like? Are have they been bought off, too?

  • Secret Squirrel

    There’s actually a historical inaccuracy included in the story you linked to Paddy.

    It states that eight brits were killed in Hyde Park.

    The facts as I understand them are that only two were killed in Hyde Park.
    Six were killed some hours later in Regents’ Park which is at least a mile away from Rotten Row in Hyde Park.
    Some horsies of the queens royal household gang or something got blew up too. :O(

  • FitzjamesHorse

    Strangely nobody knows the names of any of the soldiers who got killed in London. But everybody remembers Sefton the horse who was hurt. Strange.

  • Secret Squirrel

    No doubt a few squirrels were amongst the casualties.

  • tacapall

    And a pity too, people forgot what the thread was about.

  • Driftwood

    Why no public enquiry in to Shergar?

  • Secret Squirrel

    tacapall,
    For what it’s worth, I apologise to yourself, and others who I may have offended.
    In fairness I did initially apologise for going off-topic but I believe everything I’ve posted is factual.
    Granted, my play on words/usernames regarding Hyde Parks’ tree life was out of order. I’m sorry.

  • Secret Squirrel

    Dread Cthulhu:
    ‘That said, 9/11 as inside job doesn’t scan, for a couple reasons, starting with human nature—no secret that big could stay in the black bag. Additionally, why is it the wise folks who always see the truth are unable to convince major engineering organizations and the like? Are have they been bought off, too?

    Try googling the name Kevin R. Ryan.
    He was top dog in his field concerning the study of heat on metals. He was sacked from his job.

  • Alias

    The late and lamented Tomás Mac Giolla was one of the few Irish politicians who properly understood the Shinners. Here is what he had to say as leader of The Workers’ Party said in a speech in Dail Eireann on November 10, 1987:

    “As I said last week, the Provisionals have always relied for their influence among Catholics on creating an atmosphere where they can masquerade as the defenders of the Catholic community. They are hoping, therefore, for attacks and retaliation by Protestant paramilitaries so that they can be seen to defend the Catholic community. Time after time they have gone out and engaged in vile sectarian murders knowing that they would provoke a reaction from the paramilitaries leading to more fear and more terror in Catholic areas and leading people to believe that they needed the Provos to protect them.”

    Mac Giolla correctly saw that atrocities aimed at Protestants were a tactic designed to ensure that the nationalist community would be attacked by loyalists, thereby allowing them to increase their support among that community by posturing as defenders of that community. So successful was this propaganda that “IRA – I Ran Away” became a taunt when that murder gang declared a ceasefire, despite the fact while the IRA killed 728 mostly protestant civilians only 17 of them were loyalists. In fact, so disinterested were the Shinners in their propaganda roles as “defenders” of the Catholic community that the loyalists 864 mostly Catholic civilians.

  • slappymcgroundout

    “Try googling the name Kevin R. Ryan.
    He was top dog in his field concerning the study of heat on metals. He was sacked from his job.”

    No, he was department head of one department of a company that sets certain standards and then issues you a certification if you meet that standard. His former company provides the UL label of certification. And for the disclaimer from Underwriters Laboratories:

    UL evaluates products for compliance with specific safety requirements. UL certification does not guarantee the product will perform acceptably or that it is safe under all conditions (such as product misuse).

    So, not worth much, as lawyer for the injured plaintiff me will argue in that product liability action that Company X needed to ensure that its product was safe from forseeable misuse. And so kudos from me to the lawyer(s) who got this result:

    In a decision that could easily find its way into torts textbooks on foreseeable misuse, a Virginia court has upheld a $2 million judgment against lawn mower manufacturer, MTD, in the death of 4-year-old Justin Simmons, who was run over by a machine.

    Lastly:

    “That said, 9/11 as inside job doesn’t scan, for a couple reasons, starting with human nature—no secret that big could stay in the black bag.”

    I agree entirely, though the “common sense in light of reality” argument never seems to gain much traction with some. I would say here, re Mr. Ryan, who cares whether or not the towers fell? Two planes with flight crews and passengers crashing into the buildings was enough for me. And never mind the obvious flaw in every one of these conspiracy theories, to wit, you have to account for everything. So Mr. Ryan can speak to thermite all he likes, and he’s wrong on that, but who cares, he still need disprove what I saw with my own eyes. As for what I saw with my own eyes, the ABC coverage here to start this video: