Walls never work in the Middle East or in Ireland

Fisk in the Independent – well worth a read:
Profound
H/T Driftwood.

  • John O’Connell

    Excellent article, Dewi.

  • joeCanuck

    Fisk quotes Robert Kee who, I agree, has written masterfully about Irish History.
    He misses a point that Kee has made, however; Kee believed that Cromwell’s mission to Ireland wasn’t mainly about the Irish but the Anglo-Irish who supported Charles 1. He was apparently determined that they couldn’t stage a comeback of the Royalist forces from a base in Ireland. Lots of Irish died too of course during the campaign which is why many, if not most, Irish people still revile him.

  • Paddy

    Cromwell also had to pay his English thugs so robbing land was a necessary part of his ambitions. Probably more Irish revile Roy Keane now (or did a few years ago anyway).

  • padraig

    Amen

  • pinni

    I gave up reading Fisk years ago: he’s so predictable.

    As for anti-terrorist fence protecting people from Palestinian attacks (only 3% of the which is made of cement to obstruct snipers), liberals and terrorists hate it because it helps to save the lives of so many Israelis. For the peace and security of Israel, it has been a sound investment and definitely worth having.

  • Ramzi Nohra

    Pinni,
    I can understand why the Israelis built it,given their citizenry were being slaughtered in pizza parlours, nightclubs etc.

    However the fundamental reason why most people object to the wall is that it helps consolidate the Israeli’s illegal occupation of the West Bank. You can’t really occupy a territory and then complain about the resitance your occupation creates.

  • Paddy

    Ramzi: God gave them the land and, apparently, carte blanche to do whatever they like to anyone. This minnow nation is the world’s fourth largest military power, a nuclear armed bully and a disgrace to the world. And just why are they allowed into Eurovision and the European legs of the World Cup?

    Fisk is, indeed, so predictable. He should probably just write about God and the jews and their right to f-k everyone around. He should, in other words, spew out the usual muck.

  • Drumlins Rock

    Dewi the article is a total load of crap, throwing in a whole lot of twisted one side views of history,
    will give you one example, what about all the planter descandants who are catholics? and vice versa,
    as a story its a lazy throwing together of half facts, for example much of the fortifications of irish town were to expell a Spanish or French invasion.
    There is no point in going through it all point by point but its just sloppy a tabloid version of Irish History trying to draw imaginery parallels with Israel/Palastine. Yes some comparisons and lessons can be learnt from each other but they deserve a proper analysis not this half baked load of tosh.
    Just one more point, plantation/colonisation occurs right across the world always has always will, for example the biggest plantation of people is still underway, that of Han chinese to the eastern regions of that country, and we hear snippets of information on the outworking of the plantation of large communities of slavic Russians to the former USSR republics.
    There are no native peoples, everyones ancestors came from somewhere else, I think we have to learn to live together and celebrate whats good in both cultures, the best plantations are those where both the older communitites and new comers learm from each other and over time unite by keeping the best of both.

  • pinni

    The ‘minnow nation’ continues to punch way above its weight and makes many great contributions to humanity, although Israel-haters are never able to bring themselves to acknowledge any of them.

    Israel is a stable, functioning democracy in the middle of Arab countries which are ruled by a bunch of dictators and psychopaths.

    In the world of high-tech R&D; ambitious and successful agricultural projects; unique programmes designed to promote health, education and democracy; combating global warming; anti-terror methods; paediatric heart surgery; organic vegetables, stemming internet hate speech; bio-science; humanitarian charity work; Emotional Profiling Technology; systems which facilitate relearning the art of walking, and assists therapists in monitoring and assessing gait rehabilitation; helping to solve world poverty; etc, etc, etc, Israel is regarded by many as a leader and model of success.

    Arabs and other Israel-haters will continue to accuse Israel of being ‘occupiers’ until there is nothing left, so Israel should give up no more land. What they currently have, they richly deserve.

  • Ramzi Nohra

    Democracy eh?
    Run me through the Knesset representation given to west bank palestinians again? Surely a democracy wouldnt exclude several million people from meaningful democratic franchise, would it?

    You could also talk me through the representation they previously gave to arabs in gaza when they occupied that place, as well as the previously occupied peoples of south lebanon, sinai etc etc.

    Israel can only count as a democracy compared to the dictatorships surrounding it, not in any sense we in Western Europe recognise the term.

    They do have an effective high tech industry of course, thats true.

    Also levels of human and civil rights for citizens of israel (ie not those occupied) exceed those of the neighbouring states.

  • joeCanuck

    so Israel should give up no more land

    Pinni,
    That’s a recipe for continuous misery. No one (well maybe Iran) is asking them to give up any of their land; just to give back the land that, yes, they won fair and square in a war that threatened their existence. No one can threaten them like that now because of the MAD situation.
    It’s way past time that this mess is sorted out with a two state solution being put into effect. And yes, I know that that will require Hamas coming to the table; I think they have hinted that they might.

  • Paddy

    Israel has a unique relationship with the USA, which arms them even though Israel regularly spies on them and sells their equipment to the Chinese. Without the USA and the billions it got from Germany, Israel would not be.

    I see they are still hounding the guy who spilled the nuclear beans on them. Israel is a well armed fascist state, which is why they get support in the ghettoes of east Belfast.

  • RepublicanStones

    For the peace and security of Israel, it has been a sound investment and definitely worth having.

    Unfortunately Pinni, I take it you have never heard the old addage, ‘correlation does not imply causation’, as Shin Bet themselves reflect…

    http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/objects/pages/PrintArticleEn.jhtml?itemNo=664916

    And as regards you calling it an ‘anti-terrorist fence’, care to explain the manner in which the WALL snakes through the West Bank? I suppose the fact that it has sliced off 65% of the water resources for the West Bank Palestinians is a mere coincidence?

    Or how about the walls main architect’s admission..

    “The main thing the government told me in giving me the job was to include as many Israelis inside the fence and leave as many Palestinians outside.”(Danny Tirza)

    And this from Israeli human rights lawyer Michael Sfard talking about Tirza’s motivation…

    “But in the job he was supposed to do, he tried to mask his ideology and present it as a concern for security.”

    The wall will only serve as a reminder to Palestinians yet to be born of what their people have endured since 1948.

    they won fair and square in a war that threatened their existence.

    What war would that be Joe?

  • A Glaswegian Jew I know was working on a Kibbutz. Someone asked him, “Do you want a farm?”. Some settlers had got Israeli soldiers to kick a Palestinian farmer off his land, so they could take over the farm. They needed more people to work the land they had acquired through a forced sale.

    If only someone would pay for a thorough investigation to the conditions on which Jewish settlements were acquired. Then those who conned the Palestinians out of their land would go to prison (under Israeli law), instead of being paid to give up land they had stolen. This is about as likely as the Israeli army being forced to keep to the Jewish code of no more than an eye for an eye or a tooth for a tooth.

  • pinni

    Joe,

    so Israel should give up no more land …That’s a recipe for continuous misery – you missed my point. No matter how much ‘occupied territory’ Israel gives up, Israel-haters will always want more.

    two state solution – George W Bush was the first US president to go along with that idea – he’s looking better all the time, isn’t he?

    Hamas coming to the table; I think they have hinted that they might. – dream on, Joe. Their raison d’etre is the complete destruction of Israel

    RS,

    they won fair and square in a war that threatened their existence.- What war would that be Joe?

    Every one of them!

  • RepublicanStones

    Every one of them!

    Such as?

    (Its endearing to see some people still peddle the David V Goliath bullshit.)

  • joeCanuck

    RS,
    The war which resulted in them occupying the West Bank etc was the 6 day war in 1967. Surely you know that? What is your real point?

  • RepublicanStones

    Joe you stated

    they won fair and square in a war that threatened their existence,/i>

    Which is nonsense which has long been debunked, by none other than Israelis themselves.
    Perhaps you’d care to explain Chaim Herzog’s admission..

    “There was no danger of annihilation. Israeli headquarters never believed in this danger.”

    Or how about Mordechai Bentov…

    “The entire story of the danger of extermination was invented in every detail, and exaggerated a posteriori to justify the annexation of new Arab territory.”

    perhaps General Begin was lying when he said..

    “I do not believe Nasser wanted war. the two divisions he sent into the Sinai on May 14th would not have been enough to unleash an offensive against Israel. He knew it and we knew it.”

    Im surprised Joe at yourself peddling such fallacies.

  • pinni

    RS,
    When Israel loses its first war, it will cease to exist. So they need to stay ahead of the game.

  • joeCanuck

    Hamas…Their raison d’etre is the complete destruction of Israel

    Just as it was for the PLO a few years back. Times change, especially after you’ve taken a brutal beating.

  • RepublicanStones

    pinni, so the agressor (which even Ben-Gurion admitted was zionism) is given a free reign by the likes of you. How can you expect to ethnically cleanse yourself a state and expect to live in peace by continuing the crime?

    And btw, lovely euphemism, ‘the game’

  • joeCanuck

    RS,
    I have read an article by a tank commander with the Israeli forces who said that, during the Yom Kipper (?) war, the Israelis had fired their last tank shell on the Golan Heights and were preparing to surrender when, out of the blue, the Syrians turned away and raced towards Damascus. He said (like Wellington?) that it was a damn close run thing.

  • RepublicanStones

    Joe as im sure you are well aware the Yom Kippur war was in 1973, not 1967. Furthermore after 1948, 1956(Sinai) and 1967, in which Israel was the agressor, the continued attempt by some to portray Israel as a meek little David lined up against the vast Goliath arab armies is laughable.

    And btw Joe, added to that is the fact Israel had nukes. And just to finish, both Eygpt and Syria had limited aims. For Eygpt it was to regain a slice of the Sinai pennisula, for Syria, it was the Golan heights…as Benny Morris elaborates –

    “Presidents Anwar Sadat of Eygpt and Hafez Assad of Syria sought to regain the the territories lost in 1967. Neither aimed to destroy Israel.”

  • Drumlins Rock

    We really should sort out our own back yard first people before fighting someone elses war, saying that I was in Israel and Palastine during the summer, had a wonderful time and had a few good chats with locals, unusually for an evangelical christian tour we were dealing with palastinians mostly which was good to balance out my natural bias, we went to Bethlehem and saw the evils of the wall, but on the other hand saw the security it brought to Israel, like everything else there should be a happy medium if there is proper leadeship on both sides.

  • Driftwood

    Could have sworn i seen this article somewhere before…

  • Dewi

    DR – why unusual? Surely Christianity more prevalent amongst Palestinians than Israelis? Or were they all chucked out in 1948?

    Drift – apologies – I just saw your link on the other thread – I’ll give you a H/T!!!

  • Driftwood

    No prob Dewi, I just thought it was an intriguing article.

  • Erasmus

    When Israel loses its first war, it will cease to exist.
    They already have. Google ‘Hezbollah’ and ‘Lebanon’.

  • I think we have to learn to live together and celebrate whats good in both cultures, the best plantations are those where both the older communitites and new comers learm from each other and over time unite by keeping the best of both.

    Posted by Drumlins Rock on Jan 02, 2010 @ 10:05 PM

    Well said. I couldn’t agree more.

  • Brian MacAodh

    If Isreal wasn’t a fascist, militant state it would have ceased to exist a long time ago. That doesn’t excuse anything, but when you want to set up your country in the Middle East and you arent Muslim, you don’t have much of a chance.

  • pinni

    Brian:
    when you want to set up your country in the Middle East and you arent Muslim, you don’t have much of a chance.

    Israel and Judaism existed long before Islam in the Middle East. Israelis have a right to the land.

  • Scaramoosh

    The walls are in the mind.

  • RepublicanStones

    Israel and Judaism existed long before Islam in the Middle East. Israelis have a right to the land.

    More nonsense pinni. I supose you think Britain should be handed over to the pagans and the christians should hightail it somewhere else?

    How do you think Islam and christianity spread without jewish converts?

  • pinni

    I supose you think Britain should be handed over to the pagans

    RS,
    Isn’t that what Irish republicans are keep haroing on about this little island? Ireland for the Irish, 800 years, and all that!

  • Ramzi Nohra

    Pinni
    I guess that would be the republican position if they were saying that all Irish Americans have a right to live in Ireland (and indeed wanted to turf out the prods who have “only” been there for a few hundred years in order to make room for them).

    But i dont think that is the republican position.

    Actually as Irish Americans have a much closer chrnological connection to Ireland than Ashkenazi jews had to the Holy Land (ie c200 years max to 2000 years) that would actually be more reasonable than the Zionist birthright argument I normally see espoused by unquestioning supporters of Israel. (It would still of course be fackin ridiculous).

    As a nod to fairness I should point out the idiocy of those Arab states that persecuted or threw out members of their own Jewish communities who sometimes had roots stretching back hundreds and thousands of years.

  • Paddy

    “1.DR – why unusual? Surely Christianity more prevalent amongst Palestinians than Israelis? Or were they all chucked out in 1948?”

    The Daily Telegraph http://tinyurl.com/yddxsm5 had a good article on ethnic cleansing and religious bullying of Christians by the fascist Israeli state, and by the Muslim powers. The Israelis, much like the British, want to make out it is a simple good Jews v bad Muslims conflict.

  • RepublicanStones

    Pinni if you can’t tell the difference between a nationality and a religion….tis a bit embarrassing for you.

  • Alias

    “Isn’t that what Irish republicans are keep haroing on about this little island? Ireland for the Irish, 800 years, and all that!” – pinni

    Ireland for the Irish, and Northern Ireland for the British. If the Palestinians were to follow the examples of the muppets in NI who support them (rather than just thank them for the money and the political support but look upon them with general bemusement beyond that), they’d agree that Israel has a legitimate right to exist; renounce their claim to the territory, and also agree that their own political progress as a nation within it is dependent upon them out-breeding the Jews.

    The paddies up north cling on to the Palestinian cause to add a bit of street creed to their own disgraced cause, but the Palestinians regard them with utter disdain.

  • RepublicanStones

    Funny that Alias, but any Palestinian I ever met was overjoyed that they had support from foreigners. The welcome they extended to myself and some friends last November in the West Bank would kinda suggest you wrote that last post more out of a desire to stick the boot into people you dislike as opposed to having any actual knowledge regarding the attitude of Palestinians.

  • pinni

    Paddy, so why do the Israelis get a derogatory adjective while the Arabs are referred to merely as the Muslim powers? Not very objective, are we?

    Have you any idea how cruelly Christians are treated in many Muslim countries? Obviously not! Check out the link and let me know if you still think that the Israelis are as bad as ‘Muslim powers’.

  • Paddy

    Pinni: You seem to find it difficult that people, me included, regard Israeli fascism as fascistic. That is just another similarity between Israelis and Northern Prods: God is always with them, and those outside the fold must always be demonised in razor like language. Nothing, however, can excuse Israel’s war crimes or her unbridled arrogance.

    After her most recent blitz krieg on South Lebanon, she put in a huge damage bill a quarter the size of Lebanon’s. As if a handfuill of home made rockets/ fire crackers could do that.

    Both Israel and the Orange State were founded on ethnic cleansing. Another similarity between two odious groups.

  • Two things drive the Zionist up the wall, the truth, and the supporters the Palestinians have gradually built up in Europe and the USA. People dislike those who govern Israel for one reason alone, the disgraceful way it treats the Palestinians, and its refusal to abide by UN resolutions and withdraw from the lands it occupied in 1967.

    If one takes into account it was the UN who gave the zionists their state, most rational folk think they, at the very least could show that organisation some respect and abide by its resolutions. But no, Israel is gradually become a pariah state which breaks UN resolutions and international law by the bucket full.

    The reason Bob Fisk article has rased so many feathers in the north, is it speaks the truth about plantation and occupation, historically no good has ever come from it. There are only two ways the state of Israel can survive in the long term. Murder the overwhelming majority of Palestinians, or reach a sensible compromise with them.

    The Zionist understand clearly if the aforementioned Palestinian support base continues to grow, especially in the USA, then they and their State are in big trouble. For it could result in a future US government turning the cash cow off, that Keeps the state of Israel afloat.

    Hense the Zionists spend vast sums of money and the time of volunteers trawling the media and e-lists like this for any criticism of Israel.

    Now I have no doubt the current government in Israel would willingly murder all palestinians if the US green lighted them to do so, after all historically the US has a history of such wicked deeds.

    But I doubt the world would sit quiet whilst a repeat of the genocide inflected on native americans was rerun on the Palestinians.

    So the only hope of survival Israel has is a sensible compromise, at the end of which Israel as a ‘Jewish state’ will be no more. The world would be all the better for that as it only came into being due to western guilt over the holocaust. To attempt to build a new state on another people tragedy was always doomed in the long run. Israel needs to become a multi racial liberal democracy with equal rights for all.

    Now what a beacon of hope in the baron political landscape of the middle east that would be. A real and lasting memorial to the six million dead Jews who had their lives stolen in the holocaust.

    I understand better than some why many Israelis are reluctant to take this road, but take it they must or they will end up with nothing. Better to begin that journey now by withdrawing from the occupied territories and start with the two state solution. For if they do not soon hold the hand of friendship out to their neighbours in the long run they will end up retreating back across the sea.