A cock crows thrice – a lesson for the rooster?

Three quotes that demonstrate giving a public position on IRA membership might not damage your eventual public standing, even when one of them may not be widely believed:

‘I am a member of the …IRA and I am very, very proud of it’ –1973

‘the reality is I’m not a member of the IRA’ – 1993

‘were you the IRA No. 2…. – “yes” – 2000

That’s the Deputy First Minister’s public positions. A lesson for his party leader?

Adds: I’ve changed the title

  • Guest

    And your point?

  • Guest

    May I say that I am also a member of the IRA and IRB.And so what?

  • NCM

    Who was # 1?

  • Mark McGregor

    Guest,

    The point is that there is clearly no need to lie about/deny IRA membership, that those open about it can gain high office and ‘respect’. Maybe others should consider this.

  • Mark McGregor

    NCM,

    All three are Martin McGuinness.

  • Guest

    Mark,which others?
    Gerry Adams has enough on his plate.
    The truth will set free only those who need to be free;
    As for Martin,he’s the man who is willing to put himself between republicans and unionists.He knew it when he took the job,and accepted the responsibility.He is the greatest of right hand men.Gerry Adams knows that he must guard the ideal.just in case we need to backtrack….just like devalera;

  • i wonder what year he will expose himself as a british agent

  • Guest

    Well, since the british want out.I don’t see a contradiciton Young GERDY.

  • Guest

    Generally,I salute your idea.That IRA men should not hide their past.But You and I know that unionists would use it as an electoral weapon.Your citing of Martin is only in the vacuum of the Belfasttelegrapgh/Irish independent poll and does not take any account of the reaction on his past.He may be positive at the moment but we all know that it is because of his “traitors” speech and not because he admits to………;

  • John O’Connell

    Good one, Mark.

    But remember that I’m lurking in the background waiting on Gerry Adams to say that he was on the seven man army council of the IRA. The beast had seven heads and ten horns.

    Rusty Nail has proven the link between Gerry and the ten hunger strikers’ deaths and we’re just waiting for him to inadvertently declare that he is one of the heads of the beast.

    Sadly, the reality is that Gerry Adams does think like this and attempts to avoid the issue, and has attempted to avoid being lined up for this ever since I discovered the fact that his name, like Ian Paisley’s, works out at 666 in 1986 (which I told to his members in Galway in 1986).

    There are consequences to owning up that don’t sit easily with being a successful leader of Sinn Fein. Like Ian Paisley he knows he could go down the tubes. But I think his advice is to never admit to anything.

  • Guest

    explain the ten hons please john

  • Guest

    horns,that should have read…;;

  • alphonse_mcdog

    If I spent my saturdays thinking about cocks and Marty Mcguiness I’d reckon I had too much time on my hands.

    Now seriously, can someone lend me the money to emigrate?

  • Guest

    Alphonse,

    You’re not getting free money from me.Ask the english,they seem to be into that kind of …………politic.

  • LabourNIman

    We must all face the fact that nationalists/republicans don’t care about the past of SF members.

    What unionists have to face is the fact that while SF loves to dictate to it’s electorate, they believe they will fight for them. How many unionist parties can say they have the same backing from their voters?

    If SF was to truly become a party for everyone in NI it will have to do a few things – take the west minster seats (if the SNP can do it, so can SF) so that the people in the shankill etc feel like they are actually represented, and build a consensus with the non-aligned parties.

  • joeCanuck

    JOC, Enough already. I for one am fed up with this continual self delusional self promotion. I thought you had already been warned about it.
    Guest, please don’t encourage him. We try to avoid feeding trolls here.

  • Guest

    why the hell would Sinn féin want to become a non-aligned party?
    Next you’ll be telling us that government policy should by decided by facebook.
    Sinn féin does not want to become a party for everyone but remain a party for those people who want an united Ireland……

  • Guest

    Joe,
    I try my best.But sometimes are to easy./

  • alphonse_mcdog

    Excuse me I am not a troll. I was making a valid point on the never ending navel gazing self absorbtion of all those addicted to the Norn Iron / north of Ireland saga. I mean seriously whats the bloody point of this thread anyway.

    I have a PO box for those who can help me leave permanently.

  • Guest

    Alphonse,

    Bon voyage

  • andypandy

    Adams denial that he was in PIRA and held position on its Belfast brigade in the early 70’s will never change because to do so would leave him open to be questioned ( not by the “state” but his voters ) about the ever growing number of “Dissappeared” people from west Belfast who vanished in the early 70s. I look forward to Mr Adams response when a book written by his former friend Brendan Hughes is published next year.

  • Guest

    andypany,
    His voter have no problem with his past.It is the reason they vote for him.I look forward to darkies book.You know as well as I do that darkie respected and supported MR.Adams to the the end.

  • andypandy

    “darkie respected and supported MR.Adams to the the end.” Aye Right!

  • Guest

    quote or link,svp

  • John O’Connell

    JoeCanuck

    Do I sense sensorship?

    Guest

    Ten Horns are symbolic of the power of the Antichrist to cause delusion in people. People are deluded into believing that Adams is a Christ like figure but it turns out that Adams betrayed the hunger strikers and thus has no real power.

  • Guest

    John,
    Ten What?
    why are ten symbolic?why is 11 not symbolic?
    I don’t understand.

  • John O’Connell

    Guest

    Ten Horns

    “Ten Horns” is a direct quote from Revelation (Ch 13)

    The symbolism is in the coincidence of the ten hunger strikers that Adams betrayed with the fact that Gerry Adams name comes out at 666.

    The author chose ten and not eleven and there doesn’t seem to be much more to it than that.

  • Guest

    John,
    Thanks for the response.
    The ten hunger strikers that “Adams” “betrayed”.
    does that mean that Adams is going to cause the end of the world or how do you see that unfolding(in an SDLP sense of course) by other means?

  • flume

    well joc uses a different chippy most nights but his size clearly show his watchers that he is addicted to junk food. (deuteromony)

  • Guest

    Flume,
    leave him alone.
    Some of us need to express ourselves instead of depressing ourselves.
    No harm done!

  • John O’Connell

    Guest

    World without end.

    The purpose of the Book of Revelation is to steer us from the world dominated by the Old Testament to one dominated by the New Testament. It signals the end of the Old Testament world, and the beginning of the New Testament world. It is something to celebrate not to fear. Adams is a minor player in this scenario, attempting to drag a New Testament community back to the Old Testament. Evil yes, pathetic yes, but relevant not really.

  • Sean

    Mark I assume you think there is some sort of dychotomy in the 3 statements?

  • smcgiff

    Only if he’s unaware of the fourth dimension, Sean ;->

  • IRIA

    I think McGregor and Baker were in cahoots with this post. What next, McGregor posts about a total eclips of Uranus?

  • Dave

    It doesn’t damage your standing with your enemy if your enemy begins to see you as a friend of his friend – as quite a few of them they began to do when McGuinness called members of the Irish nation who are not loyal to British state “traitors.” In other words, if you both have the same agenda of consolidating British sovereignty while the ‘enemy’ presents his agenda as being the opposite of your agenda in order to lead his supporters towards it while telling them he is leading them away from it and towards the furtherance of their agenda. The muppets are led to do something while being told they are actually doing the opposite. So, for example, accepting the legitimacy of British sovereignty in the GFA as was demanded of them by the British state since partition is presented to those supporters not as a formal repudiation of their former right to national self-determination (which is what it is) but as an advancement of it. As Martin Ingram put it, “… make the enemy do what you want it to do without it knowing because you want that target to operate for as long as possible believing it is operating to its own agenda.”

  • Wilde Rover

    John O’Connell,

    “Sadly, the reality is that Gerry Adams does think like this and attempts to avoid the issue, and has attempted to avoid being lined up for this ever since I discovered the fact that his name, like Ian Paisley’s, works out at 666 in 1986 (which I told to his members in Galway in 1986).”

    Sorry to rain on your parade John but I believe you need to have another look at your biblical mathematics…

    http://www.aymnetwork.com/revelation-666-not-number-beast-its-devilish-616

    You may need to return to your abacus…

  • Wilde Rover

    Dave,

    ‘As Martin Ingram put it, “… make the enemy do what you want it to do without it knowing because you want that target to operate for as long as possible believing it is operating to its own agenda.”’

    Yes, making people think your idea is actually their idea is the basis of any good con.

  • Sarah Lavender

    >take the west minster seats (if the SNP can do it, so can SF)

    The SNP aren’t anti-monarchy. Why would they be, they aren’t a republican party and the Scottish monarchy took over England four centuries ago so there is no nationalist issue.

    Why should any republican MP (whether they also happen to be nationalist or not) have to start their political career with an act of purjury.

  • paulie

    The IRA denial lie makes him look totally foolish. It gives too many advantages to his opponents. They love it each time he denies it.

  • Reader

    paulie: They love it each time he denies it.
    The tacticians do – for the rest of us he is an endless “Would you buy a used car from this man?” moment.

  • LabourNIman

    Sarah Lavender – no offense, but do you actually know what the SNP are about? If so, you will find your post is idiotic.

  • Sarah Lavender

    “Sarah Lavender – no offense, but do you actually know what the SNP are about? If so, you will find your post is idiotic.”

    So says LabourNIman without making any arguments to back up his claim of idiocy on my part. However the SNP’s white paper “Your Scotland, Your Voice: A National Conversation” says

    ‘Scotland has close ties
    with the rest of the United
    Kingdom, from geography, from
    social and historical bonds, and
    through institutions, such as the
    monarchy, and would maintain
    these on independence.’

  • John O’Connell

    Wilde Rover

    You’re like the proverbial cuckoo appearing from its clock and bellowing 616 every time I mention the conventional number of the beast.

    Try British Intelligence – US intelligence everytime you these half baked claims to Biblical purity. You’ll find that they have most to lose from my scenario as the Bablyonians of the Book of Revelation. They’ve had many years to try to come up with an antidote and it really isn’t getting anywhere at the moment.

  • John O’Connell

    Wilde Rover

    Your next post in relation to Martin Ingram may be the giveaway in terms of you being related to British Intelligence.

  • I love south armagh

    See twitter.com/DBradley MLA
    “New saying in south Armagh,its so cold it would freeze your assets”-

  • Wilde Rover

    John O’Connell,

    “Your next post in relation to Martin Ingram may be the giveaway in terms of you being related to British Intelligence.”

    No John, I’m not 007, just a student of human nature. A scam is the same if it is on a racetrack or a fancy hotel surrounded by beautiful women or the use of the delphi technique to manipulate people in the workplace or even the auld lost diamond ring scam. Just so many puppets on strings.

  • Scaramoosh

    You are all (mostly) obcessed with the past and with Gerry Adams.

    In any other culture it would be deemed a serious psychological condition (a form of Participation Mystique). In N,Ireland, however, it is so prevalent that it is passed off as normality.

    Adams was not found guilty of anything by a British Court (although he was administered palace barracks justice). He is not obligated to say anything to anybody.

    One of the most ironic things about this whole issue, is that there are those (former members of the IRA Army Executive) who should, in theory know all their is to know about Adams. However, it would seems that they are duty bound by their own “code of honour” not to say anything…

  • Ulick

    IRA volunteers are forbidden by Army Orders to disclose their membership as McGuinness also does (from the mid-70’s onwards).

  • Panic, These ones like it up em.

    The futures ahead. It might be better to focus on that as we can have some input as to how that works out.

  • NCM

    But Ulick, Gerry Adams isn’t bound by those orders since he was never a member of the IRA, so that can’t be the reason he’s denying IRA membership.

  • John O’Connell

    Wilde Rover

    “a Scam”

    I assure you that I’m not engaged in a scam. This is the real thing and the prophecies point to a rude awakening for Adams soon a la Ian Paisley and the comparable collapse of the Sinn Fein vote.

    Ask Ian Paisley if it is a scam. The unassailable Ian chuckled his way to losing half the DUP vote.

  • Dixie Elliott

    Ruling by fooling…

    The greatest strategic move by the British Forces this week took place, not on the fields of Belgium or France, but on the floor of the House of Commons. In that fortress the forces of the enemy are too firmly entrenched to fear defeat, and therefore their strategic move was crowned with brilliant success. The problem was not how to defeat a nation in arms battling for all that makes life worth living, but how to fool a nation without arms into becoming the accomplice of its oppressor. And the strategic move in question is already being hailed as a great landmark of national progress.

    Yes, ruling by fooling, is a great British art – with great Irish fools to practice on.

    James Connolly 1914

  • John O’Connell

    Wilde Rover

    It might help to read the prophecies:-

    I think that the prophecies point to an unpleasant good-bye gift from Adams. That may mean some violence. This comes from the verse, “he [i.e. the Antichrist] once was, now is not, and yet will come” (Rev 17:8). The Antichrist who “once was, now is not” is a reference to the fact that Adams was acting once as the Antichrist (i.e. during the Troubles) and “now” is no longer acting in that way. “Yet will come” indicates that before the prophecies will end, he will return to being the Antichrist. This was always going to happen as no-one insisted on Adams repenting of his past. But the question is, when will the prophecies end?

    Interpreting the next verses gives a timescale for the fulfilment of the prophecies. “The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. They are also seven kings,” (Rev 17:9). The seven hills symbolise Rome, built on seven hills, so the author of Revelation is attacking the Roman Empire. The comparable empire in our context and era is the British Empire and the city comparable to Rome is London. So the seven kings come from London.

    Those kings are described as “Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come” (Rev 17:10). Coincidentally during the Troubles, the Troubles being the key timeframe, five London PMs have fallen: Wilson, Heath, Callaghan, Thatcher, and Major. “One is,” or the sixth PM, must refer to Tony Blair who never fell. The other who has not yet come is remarked: “…but when he does come he must remain for a little while” (Rev 17:10). I think that this must refer to Gordon Brown who won’t be PM for long by this account.

    The fact that Blair is referred to as “one is” demonstrates that the major prophecies occur under his rule while he “is”, and also while the Antichrist “is not” (see above), which happens at the same time, i.e. at present. But the whole sequence of verses, ante-ceded with the proviso, “This calls for a mind with wisdom,” (Rev 17: 9), making them the most mysterious verses in the Book of Revelation, also signals that the whole framework will have outworked itself by the time of the seventh king, “who has not yet come, but when he does come he must remain for a little while”.

    So when Gordon Brown, the seventh king elect, stops being PM, which won’t be long according to the prophecies, Ian Paisley and Gerry Adams will be disgraced and in turmoil, or “thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulphur” (Rev 19:20). It is already happened to Ian Paisley. The intriguing question is what happens under Gordon Brown that leads to this outcome for Gerry Adams.

  • Panic, These ones like it up em.

    How much time has Gerry Adams left as leader of Sinn Féin is of a lot more interest to me.

  • Comrade Stalin

    It is already happened to Ian Paisley

    What fiery lake of burning sulphur can I find Paisley in ? I’d like to go and look.

  • John O’Connell

    Comrade Stalin

    “Thrown alive” into the fiery lake of burning sulphur

    Thrown alive is key to understanding this. My interpretation is that Paisley faced humiliation and embarrassment and Adams will do likewise.

    I interpret the fiery lake as being Belfast which has reputedly the highest levels of sulphur dioxide in Europe.

    But you’re free to expect that they will be fried in a sulphuric mix if that tickles your pickle. Just don’t expect to be found correct in the real world.

  • ormeau farl

    Slugger continues to be a joke. How can my previous post concerning the motive for McGregor’s thread be deleted, whilst the usual errant nonsense from McConnell (which distorts and destroys a thread for the 100th time this month) is allowed unchallenged.

    Laughable and pathetic.

    Bye!!-won’t be back-unlike Mark who has had more Slugger comebacks than Alex Higgins.

  • Only Asking

    Must agree with ormeau farl, is there a point to this thread?

  • ormeau farl

    Or sore Sinn Fein activist

    Don’t use me as a battering ram. So you’re upset at my posts but to correct you on one thing I’ve hardly been on Slugger this month.

    I suppose if you have a grievance of one sort or another, you can pick any grievance to serve the chip on your shoulder. But try reading my website if you really want to be offended.

  • Dave

    “Your next post in relation to Martin Ingram may be the giveaway in terms of you being related to British Intelligence.” – John O’Connell

    A better clue might be someone proffering a agenda that is their agenda, repackaged as a ‘republican’ agenda. That agenda being to neutralise any threats – militant or intellectual – to the political legitimacy and territorial sovereignty of Her Majesty’s realm. It was always the British constitutional position that the Irish nation had no legitimate right to the territory of Northern Ireland and therefore that members of the Irish nation in that territory had no legitimate right to self-determination. That position is supported by the Shinners, and the muppets who vote for them. The position of actual republicans is that the Irish nation is sovereign, and not that it is merely entitled to tenancy within a British state. The position of the Shinners and of British Intelligence is that the British state is sovereign, and that the members of the Irish nation in that territory merely have the loaned right to self-administer British sovereignty rather than having any actual right to sovereignty. The muppets are led to think they are advancing their own agenda when in reality they are adavancing the British state’s agenda.

  • Guest

    dave,
    it is also a position suppotred by 95% of the republic by referendum.
    The failure here lies squarely with the dublin government.

  • NCM

    Yes, why has this thread gone utterly, um….?

  • Dave

    A better clue might be someone proffering a agenda that is their agenda, repackaged as a ‘republican’ agenda.

    I think you’ll find that any movement of Gerry Adams towards the SDLP position and away from the republican position is down to my “numbers” theorem and fear thereof rather than to a capitulation to British intelligence.

    You republicans just aren’t getting it. Gerry & co could have wrestled with the British indefinitely but God is an altogether more formidable opponent. God can end republicanism for ever, the British can only end it for a generation.

  • Dave

    “it is also a position supported by 95% of the republic by referendum.
    The failure here lies squarely with the dublin government.” – Guest

    Err, we didn’t renounce our right to national self-determination. We simply gave up our claim to the territory of Northern Ireland, agreeing with the British government and their supporters (the SDLP and the Shinners) when they asked us to declare that the formerly disputed territory properly belongs to Her Majesty. In other words, you folks asked us to agree that you had no right to national self-determination, and we readily complied. In case you didn’t notice, we live in an Irish nation-state and you live in a legitimised British state so it’s no skin off our noses if you choose to renounce your national rights and accept the legitimacy of British sovereignty.

    John, elevation of the term “constitutional nationalism” is one of those examples of how the muppets were led to endorse British sovereignty. Whose constitution were the SDLP promoting? The British constitution which declared that Northern Ireland is the properly of Her Majesty. Therefore, the term “constitutional nationalism” is a contradiction in terms. If, however, they promoted the Irish constitution which validated their right to national self-determination rather than the British constitution which negated it, then they could properly be called constitutional nationalists. As it is, they were of course promoting the legitimacy British sovereignty.

    Now they must start from the position of having declared that they have no right to Irish national self-determination and no right to sovereignty over Northern Ireland (but rather have a mere aspiration to both) and argue that they’d quite like both but that it is entirely at the discretion of others who don’t want either. In reality, having declared that they have no right to either, that is the position that will hold. Indeed, unity itself is no longer a proposal to extend the right to Irish national self-determination into Northern Ireland but is a means by which the rest of the Irish nation can be encouraged to follow the pitiful example of the muppets in Northern Ireland and agree that they also have no right to self-determination but must agree that another nation has a right to veto it in perpetuity. In case you might not have noticed, the GFA conflates a tradition with a nation and then conflates that nation with a state, consolidating the British state while that consolidation is presented as parity of esteem between two traditions. That will remain the case. The British state has consolidated itself, and any goodwill ‘parity’ to be extended in unity will manifest itself in a formal role for the British state.

    Your so-called nationalist politics are the creation of touts.

  • alphonse_mcdog

    Yes, why has this thread gone utterly, um….?
    Posted by NCM on Dec 13, 2009 @ 10:13 PM

    well, its like this. n/N orthern / Ireland is full of people who have their heads so far up their own bottoms that they think that we all matter and theres nothing they like more than a good OLD argument over sfa. I cant even remember what this thread was about. I think it was a cunning attempt to gauge how many people reading actually believe they are still in 1978.

    I propose someone start a thread on stamp collecting to see the level of insanity that can be randomly reached within 24 hours.

  • Wilde Rover

    John O’Connell,

    “I think you’ll find that any movement of Gerry Adams towards the SDLP position and away from the republican position is down to my “numbers” theorem and fear thereof rather than to a capitulation to British intelligence.”

    Normally I would have difficulty believing this to be possible but since you are the Messiah then I suppose I stand corrected.

  • I can help to add to Mark’s Chronology. On or about 12th August 1997, Martin McGuinness appeared on a joint TV debate (one of the first of its kind then) with Ken Maginniss UUP MP. Martin McGuinness denied that he was a member of the IRA.

    Ken Maginnis countered that Martin McGuinness had a conviction in ROI of being a member of the IRA. He also accused him of being the “Godfather of Godfathers”

    Most observers who saw the programme were left with the impression that Martin McGuinness came out of the interview looking rather foolish. It could be that as a result of that interview that he took a decision not to deny that he was a member of the IRA in the future.

    If that was the case, I suggest it was a minimal pragmatic adjustment. McGinness wont say anything about the detail of his past activities, just as Adams wont.

    With respect to the commenters above, I dont think there is any daylight between Adams and McGuinness in terms of their attitude or approach to divulging details of their past. For Adams, owning up to his past or not, is almost certainly also a matter of pragmatism.

    Gerry Adams has kept up the pretence a bit longer. He probably had a much stronger motive for doing so. He has created this image of himself as this mediator who long before the IRA campaign ended tried to persuade that movement to follow a peaceful path towards its political objective. Destroy that myth and you destroy all the magic dust which sustains Adam’s reputation.

  • Only Asking

    I can help to add to Mark’s Chronology.

    Seymour your post makes sense (about the first) but the fact is this thread is typical of what slugger is now. It’s half way through the morning and theres nothing new on this site, most other major blogs have been updated. Wheres all the new stuff from around Britain and Ireland? This blog closes at the weekend and what is left is posts like this, that have no meaning or relevancy to the present. AFter reading this – well? On to jupiter? or Mars?

  • The Real John O’Connell

    None of those previous posts are mine.

  • John O’Connell

    Dave

    Relax, man. I absolve you from thinking like the archtypical man, the extremely masculine man who has in mind the safeguarding of the national sovereignty of the nation. I mean you’re the same man in every nation.

    But what about the woman. God is a woman, some wise man wrote. What about rational economics that mean that people would be worse off under your sovereignty position, including most nationalists. Who in conscience could ask young men to kill for that result? Only a fool, only a true muppet could do that.

    THe SDLP position is a rational position which takes account of the preferences of the people rather than shove them down their throats. We advocate unity by consent of a majority of the North’s population because we know that it needs the consent of some unionists or an increasingly confident and growing Nationalist population that means that it will not be won by the bully boys who can command the support of a section of Nationalists but not all due to their methods.

    The message to you bully boys is that you can never achieve a united Ireland, so why try? If you can’t then you’re only wasting lives, including your own on some fanciful mission to impose extremely masculine values on a female emasculated Nationalist population that has reflected its values in its voting patterns. That poulation will never choose your Ireland even if it does choose a united Ireland. It will choose the SDLP’s Ireland.