The Falls alight on Friday night…

From your roving reporter David Vance… Though it comes with little detail…

  • thought provoking stuff.

  • I wonder if a few wheelie bins alight in the Shankill Road would have received the same attention from our bitter little friend. He had initially described the situation as riotous before amending his hyperbolic rant when informed otherwise.

  • NCM

    Wow, has Gerry Adams been informed of this latest momentous development?

  • joeCanuck

    Was that supposed to be a video?
    All I can see is a pic with someone running across the road with 2 firemen appearing to be having a piss at the right hand side.

  • NCM

    Yeah, the only thing missing from the photo was any reason at all for its existence.

  • KieranJ

    Why in the world would anyone be surprised by unrest in a police state?

  • skullion

    Maybe theres a bigger picture.

  • Clanky

    “maybe there’s a bigger picture”

    Yeah but I bet the quality is no better than this one!

  • Comrade Stalin

    I’m not sure what the picture shows, other than a fire engine.

    Anti-social behaviour is a very serious problem in the neighbourhoods all over the country. The stuff that made the news in the city centre earlier in the week happens on a regular basis around the inner city and the suburbs, and tends to go unreported. The police do not appear to have a strategy to deal with it. Frankly, a lot of the time, it looks like they don’t really want to get their hands dirty.

    I don’t see a problem with prosecuting parents who fail to properly look after their kids, allowing them to roam the streets at night. We prosecute them if they do not make sure their kids go to school, so the concept of parental liability is already there.

  • Mark McGregor

    So I’m not the only one that has no idea what this is about.

  • Only Asking

    I think Comrade Stalin is right.

    This follows on from that which happened the other evening in the city centre. Is this recreational vandalism? And what about the parents – some of the kids seemed very young the other evening – early teens.

    It’s an attempt I think to talk about the issue of anti social behaviour from the looks of it. AS C. S. writes it is indeed a problem in our cities. Yesterday I over heard a few kids boasting about ‘jail time’, like something from the wire one of them shouted at the crowd that none of them had done any time, and the response he got back was ‘well I’m only fifteen’, that earned the retort, ‘by the time I was fifteen I’d been in jail’.

    Peace has brought us nothing if our young are going to end up like something from the corners of Baltimore. We’re going down that road, and it is an issue that is under reported, and ignored by the msm. Our young are a ticking time bomb.

  • Scamallach

    The post on ATW is an absolute non-story, not in the sense that there isn’t a story there, but that there is no actual “reporting” of anything. It’s probably the least descriptive post I’ve ever read.

    I’d have to agree with Comrade Stalin’s point regarding the police though; I do think there is no coherent strategy for dealing with young criminals and there is also a worrying attitude that because they are young their crimes are less serious. As any victim will tell you, it doesn’t really matter what age the perpetrator was.

  • BREAKING NEWS FROM DAVID VANCE “Republicans are bad.”

  • Only Asking

    not in the sense that there isn’t a story there, but that there is no actual “reporting” of anything.

    I agree, but blogs are not the msm. I did see a lot of man playing on this thread earlier. Good luck to mick if he is trying to get peace on line, when we don’t have it elsewhere, we only have to think back this past week to the mc dowell incident. We are a society that still thinks in terms of them and us, and I looked at the post on Vance’s blog and it doesn’t say Republicans are bad at all. See below,

    Sad to report that there appears to be more street theatre of the pyrrhic kind in Belfast this evening, on the Falls Road. This follows on from that which happened the other evening in the city centre. Is this recreational vandalism? And what about the parents – some of the kids seemed very young the other evening – early teens.

    Everybody is entitled to a view on anti social behaviour because it affects us all.

  • Dave

    Well, it’s good to see that the citizen journalism and self-publication empowerment properties of the Internet are being exploited to the max. Maybe some other blog has breaking news and even a first picture of a nonchalant cat up a tree?

  • Only Asking

    “Maybe some other blog has breaking news and even a first picture of a nonchalant cat up a tree?”

    In Boston

    lol

  • west belfast

    David Vance is the last person (well maybe Turgon as well) who would post anything other than stereotypical nonsense about west belfast.

    West Belfast was, is and is probably always destined to be one of the most socially deprived areas in these islands. So just like the inner cities of Dublin, Limerick or London there will be anti-social behaviour. This is a social disease not a nationalist area disease and to say otherwise is nothing short of sectarianism.

    David should venture into the socially deprived areas of Ballymena to see what drugs and anti-social behaviour are doing to that DUP/TUV heartland. Then compare the two – that would be honest journalism and worth reading.

  • Jo

    Linking to that blog does absolutely nothing to encourage the type of optimism about blogging’s contribution to democratic expression, any more than the author’s posting here during the Gaza bombardment (“Go, Israel!”) contributed to sensible debate on a serious issue.

    The man is to be pitied or sectioned, not encouraged.

  • Comrade Stalin

    I’m about the last person to defend David Vance, but I didn’t interpret his comment on his blog as “look at those stupid fenians wrecking the place”. The Falls/Divis is one of the black spots for this kind of behaviour at the moment, and it’s republicans/SF types who you’ll hear shouting the loudest about it. Quite rightly too, as it’s destroying their community in the same way that it destroys any community where it sets in.

  • Rory Carr

    I am happy to report that there were no recorded incidents of widespread rioting, looting, arson or vandalism in Hackney last night.

    Police were at a loss as to the causes of this serious outbreak of peace although one non-attributable source ventured that it was probably due to “a shortage of Fenians” in the area.

  • Alright Kids – permit me to deal with the inflammatory issue. (Geddit?)

    First of, I am no roving reporter.

    As I explained on ATW, I had witnessed first hand loutishness in Belfast post Bob the Builder and expressed my concern at how some very young people were engaging in this kind of anti-social behavior. Issues like parental responsibility interest me in that regards.

    Now, last evening, I was provided by someone who lives in West Belfast of images of some further anti-social behaviour. It seems that the Fire Brigaded had to put out the results of this. So, from Bob the Builder to Fireman Sam in but a few short days.

    I once again wondered why we have such loutishness on our streets.

    Cue the onslaught of the Sluggerettes transferring their own rancid bigorty onto me! I could not care less if it was east, west, north or south Belfast where such loutishness happens. This is not a sectarian issue, you proles. It is about trying to understand why a section of young people think it is a good night out if they can damage property and makes other people miserable. It is about figuring out how parents preside over this. It is about the rule of law, wherever.

    I appreciate that some of you are so blinded by your own bigotry that this is beyond your comprehension so I will waste no more time on them.

    I thank Only Asking and Comrade Stalin for trying to understand what I was writing about. I also fully agree with west Belfast about what goes on in UVF controlled sections of Ballymena, and should someone send me images of this I will happily comment.

    You should be mature enough to accept that issues like young people engaging in anti-social behavior is a problem for all of us.

    And just so ALL are clear, I have never claimed to be a citizen journalist!

    Now, I’m off for some recreational blogging…

  • exile

    [i]Cue the onslaught of the Sluggerettes transferring their own rancid bigorty onto me![/i]

    We learned from the best, David.

  • andrew white

    West Belfast was, is and is probably always destined to be one of the most socially deprived areas in these islands…………

    how so? west belfast is within a few miles of the majority of jobs in the whole of Northern Ireland. The people there have better job prospects that those in the rest of the province. better bus and rail services, closer and better hospital care.

  • Jo

    I don’t think anyone can take seriously moralising about the rule of law from someone who is on the record as wishing to exclude from government all Irish Nationalists and Republicans because he believes they are not loyal to the state of N Ireland – and who said and acted as he did regarding the deaths of thousands of men, women and children in Gaza earlier this year.

  • Fabianus

    Go Israel Vance!

  • Dave

    Andrew, they may be within walking distance of a few hundred thousand jobs but it is surely a violation of their human rights that they have to walk or even get the bus to a place of work. Can’t Nanny do any better than that?

  • Anonymous

    I have reread the post in question, a bit more context would have helped but, as much as it grieves me, I’ve got to agree with Vance on this one. Can someone point out to me the sectarianism I’ve apparently missed on this particuliar post?

  • Teekan

    Now now David no opinions from you here, and also a side slap for Turgon who’s not even on the horizon for this thread.

    Proddies lie down!

    The Slugger ‘unionist outreach’ seems to be going well.

  • NCM

    “Proles,” Vance?

  • Fabianus

    I’m a prole, and proud of it.

    Gwerinos y byd, cyfunwch!

  • Clanky

    Recreational vandalism is hardly anything new, the only difference in Belfast is an inherently higher skill level, developed after years of recreational vandalism being harnessed by paramilitaries on both sides.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Clanky,

    Witticism aside, the recreational vandalism we are seeing now is at the hoof of kids who weren’t born when the first ceasefire occurred. And I don’t think it’s specific to Belfast or NI.

  • An Lorgain

    The action was in Portadump last night…………

    [b]Loyalist mob’ blamed for trouble[/b]

    [i]Disturbances in Portadown in which police were attacked have been blamed on a “carefully-orchestrated loyalist mob” by a local SDLP assembly member.

    A large crowd gathered on Sunday shortly after midnight in the Mandeville Street and West Street area.

    Ten officers sustained minor injuries and a number of vehicles were damaged.

    Dolores Kelly said the plans were known weeks ago and the gathering should have been stopped. A police spokeswoman said appropriate resources were in place.

    The trouble, said by police to be sporadic, lasted for about three hours.

    A 19-year-old man is to appear in court next month charged with assault on police and public order offences, while a 31-year-old was released pending further inquiries.

    ‘Provocative’

    Mrs Kelly said: “Two weeks ago we warned that texts were circulating calling on all loyalists to gather for a show of force in the centre of the town at pub closing time.

    “This was incredibly stupid, incredibly provocative and the purpose was made absolutely clear in the texts which we forwarded to the media – to intimidate nationalists and lay claim to ownership of the town centre.

    “As far as I have heard the police were prepared and were able to move the mob back and generally control the situation. But the fundamental point is that a very substantial group of people are determined to deny access to the town centre for all.”

    She said she had called for an investigation into the police’s handling of the incident.

    The Irish News reported on 19 November that text messages were circulating urging loyalists to gather on a given weekend night “to show republicans that we will not tolerate their behaviour or presence in our area”.

    Garvaghy Road Residents Coalition spokesman Breandan Mac Cionnaith said: “By permitting this intimidatory mob to assemble last night in the first place, the PSNI ensured a clear message was sent out signalling that Portadown town centre is not a welcome or safe place at night for Catholics or nationalists.

    “That is totally and completely objectionable and abhorrent and cannot be justified under any circumstances.”

    A police spokeswoman said they were aware of the text messages being circulated and appropriate resources had been put in place to deal with the illegal gathering.

    She said police were “working with the public and community representatives to resolve the situation”[/i]

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8385187.stm

  • Fabianus

    JO

    “Now, fuck off to yor own website”

    Wow, strong words, Mr Fealty. And why do you have to cloak them in a pseudonym? Or has this “JO” person staged a coup on Slugger?

    Frankly I preferred it when good ol’ Mr Fealty ran the show.

  • Jo

    Do not link to this site which is, in the NICS taxonomy, classed as a Hate and Intolerance site.

  • Jo,

    Thanks for the plug.
    So, please feel free to visit an OFFICIALNICS TAXONMICALLY CHALLENGED “hate and intolerance” site
    http://atangledweb.squarespace.com/
    You KNOW it makes sense 😉

    PS. Wonder could you pass me the details of the person who stands over this decision, from a legal perspective? Cheers.

  • Jo

    I’ll leave that to yr legal representatives to explore, no doubt you will be prepared to spend your own money to find out the limits of freedom of expression which are extended to racistinciters to hatred in a liberal democracy. Happy to indulge.

  • Fabianus

    Jo

    Please don’t take this the wrong way but you “sound” like a rather angry person. Why do you resent David Vance so much?

    I don’t necessarily agree with all of his opinions but—and I do mean but—he’s fairly evenhanded with his criticism. Okay, he tends for example to champion Israel above Hamas, but do ask yourself when was the last time you felt uncomfortable in the immediate proximity of an Israeli lest he self-explode?

    Also on the vexed and vexing questions of Northern Ireland, I feel that Vance is pretty much on the money when he condemns ALL terrorists, loyalist and republican alike.

    I’m sorry but you’ll have to come with some slightly less sweeping statements to convince me that David Vance is the rabid racist/bigot/sectarian you imagine him to be.

  • Jimmy Sands

    “So, please feel free to visit”

    Well seeing as you asked so nicely…

  • Jo

    Fab:

    Keep watching and you’ll see what I am on about.

    Most Sluggerites know what the man is like, even if they’re less vociferous about his racism and bigotry than me.

    The man can say what he wants on his blog, until incitement to hatred legislation becomes effecive, but when he appears on the BBC (an organisation he reviles for its bias against his pov – oh wait, did I miss something?)he appears reasonable and even handed.

    No talk of Islam being “a religion of pieces” or any other rants about “the problems of immigration” or bombing Gaza/Lebanon to the Stone Age.

    Or justifying killing women and children to hit terrorists. Given that he was a neighbour of one of NI’s worst terrorists, Robin Jackson, he seemed a little reluctant to accept that his home be bombed in any effort to kill that terrorist. And do feel free to mention the bombing of the King David Hotel by the man who later became Prime Minister of Israel. But of course, Begin wasn’t a terrorist, in Vance’s perverted view.

  • public sector timewaster

    Hard life in the civil service, eh Jo?

    have another cup of tea.

  • Jo

    Opposing bigotry, hypocrisy and intolerance is not the preserve of public servants but a duty for everyone.

    If blogging is what this site would like it to be, then the fewer websites inciting intolerance and racial or religious hatred the better.

    Such sites network and reassure bigots and racists that they’re not alone and that there are other nasty minds out there. Their closure would be no loss to anyone except to the mindset that needs to vent bile in order to prevent it having to examine the attitudes and darkness within itself.

  • New Blue

    Andrew, your post on the first page is just another example of how you and your party have finally completed the conversion to becoming Marie Antoinette.

    “west belfast is within a few miles of the majority of jobs in the whole of Northern Ireland. The people there have better job prospects that those in the rest of the province. better bus and rail services, closer and better hospital care. “ Yes Andrew – let them eat cake!

    Go into any of the isolated and ignored communities, catholic or protestant, in West Belfast and tell the people how fortunate they are to have all this going for them.

    Your party have turned their backs on those who most need leadership and help in West Belfast – the very same people you need to come out and vote for you at election time.

    Large areas of West Belfast, areas that have suffered most as a result of the last 40 years, have been negelected for so long that many of those living there have just given up.

    In my opinion West Belfast needs support from all political parties to focus on the issues that are faced by the most disadvantaged – Education, Employment and anti-social behaviour being three key agenda items.

    This is not an orange or green issue, West Belfast contains areas of severe deprevation on both sides of the ‘peace walls’. To make a difference we need leaders and politicians to work FOR the people, not head-in-the-sand blanket comments like those made by Mr. White

  • Big Bopper

    If blogging is what this site would like it to be, then the fewer websites inciting intolerance and racial or religious hatred the better.

    Few would disagree, but you selected 1 particular viewpoint and 1 individual Jo. Obviously someone who doesn’t share your republican/nationalist perspective. Do you have a name for your high horse?

  • Jo

    I have not a nationalist or republican perspective, except in the sense that I believe monarchy to be an anachronism. I happen to accept Sinn Fein’s mandate which is more than others do – preferring some form of distant government to local people representing local people.

    I’m opposed to bigotry and hypocrisy wherever it raises its head – interestingly a well-known Republican website has demonstrated itself to be as intolerant to criticism as the one I drew attention to previously.

    Blogging is valuable in a democracy – but providing solace and comfort to people who hate because of another persons skin or religion is not something to be accepted either in blogging or in real life.

    Now: you can dismount from your own prejudiced stallion. 🙂

  • Sean

    Fabianus

    Jo gets a little rabid about David and over eggs the pudding a little bit, But some of what he allows to be published on his blog is well past acceptable complete with racism and calls to violence

    Having said all that David himself was once caught out by Percy if I remember correctly that its not just SF that he doesn’t want in government but he doesn’t want nationalists/republicans/catholics/fenians, pick what ever label you want, about the place but most especially in Storomont

    Jo just shouldn’t let it get so far under her skin because then Dave wins

  • Jo

    Thank you, Sean.

    I value what happens here on Slugger and think it represents a positive side of the blogosphere.

    There are boundaries to what is acceptable – that in itself is not a restriction on freedom, but simply a manifestation of vigilance.

  • Jo

    Actually, it was me:

    Fourth, nationalists are de facto unfit for ANY form of Government. Why? Because they seek to destroy the State, ergo they cannot be trusted to do anything in Government.

    Fifth, the institutions will NOT be up and running, count on it.

    Posted by: David Vance | February 14, 2006 at 09:24 AM

  • Anonymous

    “There are boundaries to what is acceptable – that in itself is not a restriction on freedom, but simply a manifestation of vigilance”

    I do not read ATW anymore for a number of reasons but I resent your arrogance in deciding upon those boundaries on my behalf as I and the vast majority of Slugger readers are quite capable to do that for ourselves.

    Secondly, the NICS block on “hate” (however defined) sites does not exist.

  • Jo

    I am not arrogant enough to “decide” boundaries – I am pointing out that there is a negative side to blogging and that your resentment would be better directed elsewhere.

    Taking photographs of people on the street and publishing them on the internet is actually an intrusion into personal privacy. Surprised no-one has pointed this out.

    Quite apart from the chance that someone might reasonably object to the photographer and decide that the camera would be best inserted where the sun didn’t shine! 🙂

  • Anonymous

    “I am pointing out that there is a negative side to blogging…”

    Well, thank you for that revelation.

  • Sean

    No JO

    Percy with a few short but elegant questions had Dave admit that no one other than unioinists should be in government

  • Jo

    Hi Sean, well that would be interesting to capture and preserve. I’m sure Percy can enlighten us. 🙂

  • Driftwood

    Jo
    Can we have a list of acceptable newspapers, magazines, TV programmes, websites etc that you feel are OK for us to look at.

    In your own (or rather Civil Service)time.

  • Sean

    “Got me to admit”? lol.

    Listen, I believe in the Union and seek good government for all people here in Northern Ireland, first and foremost. I think that those who are committed to the destruction of the Union do not make ideal candidates for good government. Is that a surprise to you? Is that a shocker? Self evidently Sinn Fein/IRA do not. The SDLP continually fail to impress but perhaps under new leadership they may rise to the challenge of putting the interests of all of the people first and not the issue of trying to outgreen the Provos.

    Jo,

    Have you informed the NICS as to the amount of time you atre spending on the net in the time that we taxpayers are funding? I would be obliged if you do not respond to this unless you do so in your own time as I just can’t afford it. Savage cutbacks, y’know.

  • Seimi

    ‘I believe in the Union and seek good government for all people here in Northern Ireland, first and foremost. I think that those who are committed to the destruction of the Union do not make ideal candidates for good government.’

    So, David, is that not an admission that you don’t want to see Nationalists or Republicans in government? You don’t want an opposition?

  • Seimi

    I think that Sinn Fein are utterly unfit for government. I can think of 200 good reasons. This is not an “admission” – I have said it since 1996.

    I think the SDLP could be fit for government but only if they focus on delivery of what is best for the people of Northern Ireland as opposed to the “people of Ireland” drivel they tend to spout.

    I don’t believe that good government can be delivered by parties diametrically opposed to each other, do you? How can there be a common agenda when the policies are entirely conflicting.

    Mandatory power sharing is entirely unacceptable to any true democrat and if we then suggest that any replacement systems are based on voluntary agreement, that means that each Party must carefully consider what it wants to do.

  • Guest

    “Mandatory power sharing is entirely unacceptable to any true democrat and if we then suggest that any replacement systems are based on voluntary agreement, that means that each Party must carefully consider what it wants to do. ”

    And why would the parties agree under Voluntary agreement when they cannot agree under mandatory agreement,to which they have signed up?
    The idea seems to be that parties don’t like being pressured into agreeing but if we give them space to decide themselves they would do just that.Ever get the feeling that people are free-riding and making excuses.
    Unless,of course there a whole other agenda here.And someone is mad enough to believe that northern Ireland can be run as a democracy without one side ruling to the disadvantage of the other side on a continual basis.

  • Jo

    I don’t recall such principled objection from this brand of democrat to the old Stormont system where Catholics were utterly excluded from power for fifty years.

    Oh wait, there was the Wild Birds Act.

    Silly me…there I was thinking that the “principled” objection to mandatory coalition was a veneer of sophistication over naked sectarian bigotry.

  • Guest

    The point is simple. Political Parties should be FREE to decide if and with whom they will share power. The second point is that the concept of an OPPOSITION to the Executive is denied the people of Northern Ireland. Why should WE settle for such a miserable failure of a system such as that at Stormont?

    Jo,

    I hope you are on a break and I am not funding your revisionism of history. Now, in your spare time ONLY, have you the contact for me in the NICS so I can engage on the hate site allegation you made.

  • Guest

    David Vance,

    Why should we settle for such a miserable failure of the system at stormont?

    first of all, I don’t believe that it is a miserable failure.
    Northern Ireland is a miserable failure.And any political system will be made of the same miserable stuff-which makes mandatory coalition quite a success.
    If political parties should be free to decide if and with whom they share power then why would they share power with parties who do not agree on constitutional matters.You may say that should be free to not share power with said parties,but then isn’t it fairly obvious that you’re suggesting that northern Ireland can be run by unionists for the good of all.That is not true.And you know it.
    The right to an opposition is quite amusing when one considers that they unionists and republicans oppose each other on nearly every matter.One of the interesting factors in mandatory coalition which is often overlooked is that there is an executive which often disagrees with itself,and indeed does so in public.There is no whip;that most annoying political cholesterol.There is freedom for politicians that you will not find in “voluntary” government.
    One may then argue that this freedom limits there ability to get things done.That is the problem with northern Ireland.Everything is worked on the basis of what is lesser of the evils.If you want good government why not sign up to be part of Germany?
    Or is it all about the Union?

  • Sean

    David I believe the exchange went like this but I am not tolling your archives from a year and a half ago

    Percy: Do you think SF should be allowed in government
    Dave: NO

    Percy: Do you think the SDLP should be allowed in government
    Dave: No

    Percy: do you believe any nationalist should be allowed in government
    Dave: No

  • Seimi

    David, whether you like it or not, Sinn Féin are in government. All you can do is accept that, and hope they all get voted out next time round, which is unlikely to happen. There are many on the Nationalist side who are opposed to sharing power with the DUP, however, there is nothing they can do about that either.

    ‘I think the SDLP could be fit for government but only if they focus on delivery of what is best for the people of Northern Ireland as opposed to the “people of Ireland” drivel they tend to spout.’

    So, only if they agree with your viewpoint? That would make them a Unionist party then, wouldn’t it?

    ‘Mandatory power sharing is entirely unacceptable to any true democrat…’

    Do you consider yourself a democrat, David? You fully support the Union, as is your right, but you don’t believe that those who, in your words ‘… are committed to the destruction of the Union…’, and there are many of them, should have ANY say at all in the running of this place. Strange definition of a democrat…of course, perhaps I read you wrong. Maybe you aren’t a democrat?

  • Guest,

    If we believe the Belfast Telegraph poll, two thirds of people disagree with you that it is not a miserable failure.

    Sean

    Thanks for that – it sounds stimulating.

    Seimi

    Explain how a government consisting of those on the one hand seeking to preserve the Union and those dedicated to destroying it can work. After ten years, we know this model does not work so why would any sane person seek to retain it. It is mediocre in terms of performance, never mind the immorality of having an IRA godfather as co First Minister. It has failed and will keep failing UNTIL either it changes fundamentally or – if local refuse to work positively for Northern Ireland – is replaced by Direct Rule (and the awesome fear inducing “Plan B” that the DUP so wisely warned us about)

  • Seimi

    ‘Explain how a government consisting of those on the one hand seeking to preserve the Union and those dedicated to destroying it can work.’

    What is your solution? To exclude those ‘dedicated to destroying it’? Not very democratic.

    ‘After ten years, we know this model does not work…’

    And the previous model DID work? How many people died under the previous model?

    ‘…never mind the immorality of having an IRA godfather as co First Minister.’

    You have no such qualms about Israel and its leaders David. Double standards? As well you know, SF are the 2nd largest party here, and the largest Nationalist party at the moment. You don’t like it? Vote them out. Or at least, campaign for the SDLP. Oh wait, they aren’t Unionist enough, are they?

  • Guest

    “.never mind the immorality of having an IRA godfather as co First Minister.”-
    well,If we believe the Belfast Telegraph poll….

  • Seimi

    The organisation that was KILLING the people you make reference to are now in power! Don’t you get the irony of what you are stating? Putting murderers, bombers and bankrobbers into government might ring your bell, doesn’t ring mine. It was wrong ten years ago and it is still wrong.

    The Israel comparison – so beloved here on Slugger – is fatuous. Having had 6 million Jews slaughtered, I think the need for their State was moral and indeed entirely legal.

    The IRA had no excuse for what they did and that justice remains unfilled is a disgrace.

    Face it – the Stormont model has failed and will keep failing and you – and the others who cheer-lead for it – better start facing into this reality.

    And that’s not me saying it – it is the pro-Agreement Belfast Telegraph.

  • Jo

    Menachem Begin was a mass murderer and was Prime Minister of Israel.

  • Seimi

    ‘The organisation that was KILLING the people you make reference to are now in power!’

    The British government? Unionist parties? Oh. You mean Sinn Féin, don’t you? Cos they killed each and every one of those people didn’t they?

    ‘Having had 6 million Jews slaughtered, I think the need for their State was moral and indeed entirely legal.’

    And the people they killed in getting that state? The towns and villages bulldozed, the people displaced? That was moral and entirely legal? Two wrongs don’t make a right, David. And having contributors to your site who proudly assert that they would like to piss on the graves of the people killed in Gaza really weakens your argument.

    ‘The IRA had no excuse for what they did and that justice remains unfilled is a disgrace.’

    Replace IRA with British government, UVF, RHC, etc etc…

    I happen to agree with you that one death is one too many, however my view is not so blinkered as to attribute all those deaths to one organisation.

    ‘Face it – the Stormont model has failed and will keep failing and you – and the others who cheer-lead for it – better start facing into this reality.’

    I’m not cheer-leading for it David. It is deeply, deeply flawed. It needs changes. But it is part of a system which is still better than what we had. I know you don’t believe that, but I, and the majority of people here, do.

  • Anonymous

    “…have you the contact for me in the NICS so I can engage on the hate site allegation you made.”

    David

    She won’t be giving you that contact because, as I pointed out, this morning neither the person nor the policy exists.

  • Seimi

    You are a sensible and reasoned contributor here and elsewhere and I take on board your points but will not agree with any of them. The contributor before your 3.26pm post had better been on tea-break or we may need to enquire why those on the NICS have so much time on their hands, given their high salaries.

  • Seimi

    ‘You are a sensible and reasoned contributor here and elsewhere and I take on board your points but will not agree with any of them.’

    Fair enough, didn’t really expect you to David 🙂
    It’s enough that you read and responded.

  • Jo

    Don’t fawn, Seimi. Its unbecoming.

  • Seimi

    Fawn? It’s called manners, Jo. You should try it 🙂

  • Driftwood

    Good manners and civil servants don’t mix.

  • Fabianus

    Driftwood

    “Good manners and civil servants don’t mix.”

    That’s not true! The civil servants who charged me £60 for travelling at the reckless speed of 52mph on the A1 when a 40mph limit was imposed referred to me as their “client”. Surely that’s a sign of manners. Not sure what exactly it was they thought they were selling me.

    BTW the speed limit was imposed to protect the road workers, who were conspicuously absent at 19.03, the time I committed my horrendous act of criminality.

  • Rory Carr

    Why they weren’t selling you anything, Fabianus, they were counselling you; instructing you that the speed limit signs really mean what they say and that, “Yes”, they also applied to Fabianus as well as to every other driver on the road. A nice lesson in the democratic imperative for which you might feel suitably grateful if also somewhat chastened.

  • Fabianus

    Rory

    You don’t get it. The speed limit of 40mph was imposed to safeguard the road workers, who asaik were there from 9.00 to 17.00. In any case they weren’t there when I drove that stretch of road. I was therefore driving safely and endangering no one.

    Face it, my fine (and 3 penalty points) was simply a greedy council’s grabbing of easy money.

  • Rory Carr

    Stop it, Fabianus. You’ll have me on the brink of tears.

    Here’s a little tip to help you avoid such crushing injustice in the future: THE SIGNS REALLY DO MEAN WHAT THEY SAY. Honestly, it’s nothing personal.

  • Ulster McNulty

    “…had 6 million Jews slaughtered, I think the need for their State was moral and indeed entirely legal”

    If murdering 6 millions European jews during the 1930’s & 1940’s is justification for establishing a Jewish state in Asia………Shurely the murder of unknown millions of Irish catholics (plantations and penal laws, and artificially created famines, and just for fun) during the 1600s, 1700s and 1800s provides a much more powerful justification for an irish catholic state in the here and now?

  • RepublicanStones

    ‘Having had 6 million Jews slaughtered, I think the need for their State was moral and indeed entirely legal.’

    Zionism predated the holocaust. Making a plan to steal someones land is not given retrospective legitimacy just because you get seven bells knocked out of you before you can execute the plan in full. And as regards legality, it was devoid of that also.

    ‘provides a much more powerful justification for an irish catholic state in the here and now?’

    Ulster, Davids logic is self-defeating and he knows it. Your point regarding an irish state is actually more logical because the irish all come from the same place, language, culture etc.

  • Anonymous

    RS

    “Zionism predated the holocaust”

    The Holocaust was the first documented persecution of Jews? What do you think was the driving force behind Zionism, pure racism?

  • RepublicanStones

    Anonymous. it seems you haven’t read my post properly.

    Can you see the quote in italics above the text you have quoted from me?

    Zionism, which actually created the idea of a jewish nation/race sought to create a homeland for world jewry. There is no doubt that jews suffered persecution before the holocaust, but unfortunately for zionism there were no empty spaces left on the globe. But as regards zionism = racism, unfortunately the likes of Ahad Ha’am’s cultural zionism wasn’t the winning ideology. It was the political zionism of Herzl mixed with the labor zionism of Ben-Gurion et al. Unfortunately all too often zionist leaders revealed their rather racist tendencies toward the indigenous people of the country they coveted. And such racism extends today and can be regularly witnessed in statements and laws emanating from the Knesset.

  • Anonymous

    “Anonymous. it seems you haven’t read my post properly”

    No, don’t worry, I see exactly where you’re coming from RS.

    Bottom line, you have no right as an Irishman and European to pass moral judgements on a people that you collectively have treated as shit throughout your and their shared history.

  • RepublicanStones

    Anonymous you have a right to claim others have no right to speak out against immoral ideologies wherever they may originate from, just as those people have a right to be critical of those idologies. BTW i have never treated any Jew as shit.

    And i like the way you lump world jewry in as being some unified collective who share the same views. Way to go.