Doesn’t Hague’s veto for English MPs wreck the Union strategy?

What Reg Empey called “ the beginning of a beautiful friendship” was given a modest lift at the Conservative conference this morning in the low level opening “Great Britain” session that launched off a day due to be dominated by David Cameron’s Leader’s Speech. You know it’s low level because the little sit-down talks aren’t posted on the conference website and all the speakers except Reg didn’t get up from their deep white armchairs to speak. Indeed poor Reg didn’t even qualify for an armchair presumably because he is still, sort of a not quite full member. Anyway, the wider attention the session will receive will be round about zero. The overwhelmingly English representatives don’t really get devolution as a whole (which is what this was really about) but they probably know the Union is vaguely in question so every reference to it triggered a sprinkling of applause. It was all very low-key – I expect the Leader is reserving the main cheer-lines on The Union for himself and I’ll spare you the Scottish and Welsh bits. But before we all rush to Reg, we had Owen Patterson, the cocky frontbencher who has the ticklish task of re-forging an old relationship. NI wasn’t quite like quite Finchley yet, but Owen seemed to think it was getting there.“The constitution was settled ten years ago. Now we can move on” (Perhaps Owen you may yet right, but this is hardly a complete statement). He made two decidedly peripheral promises ( the first after losing his place in the text):

We will bring to an end the practice of shared mandates ( Have you talked this over with FM and DFM?)
And we will bring to an end inquiries which have loose mandates like Saville (was inquiring into what happened, how and why in one 20 minute period really a “loose mandate”?).

For the avoidance of doubt, Patterson confirmed that the Conservative party ( sic) would be the only party to put up candidates in every part of the UK, adding: “For too long, Northern Ireland has been semi-detached from the Union.. it’s MPs had no chnahce to be ministers… we will change all that.”
All the devolution spokespersons were careful to say they’d keep their noses out devolved matters. So only cool endorsement was on offer for power sharing and no sense of urgency about transferring J&P. Indeed there was no urgency about anything much: “turning NI into an enterprise zone” is a 25 year project, it seems. Ian Parsley ,Alliance apostate, was warmly applauded as he led off a series of regional accents asking the same tame question with different regional name checks “ what would a Conservative government do about unemployment”? And then it was Reg’s turn, speaking from the perspex podium.

For a speech labelled by the Newsletter as “historic” it failed to match its billing, though it began with a note of fashionable honesty: “David Cameron probably doesn’t need a single UU vote to bring him into Downing St….so support for the UUP is a long term calculation.” Reg missed the chance to make the audience warm to him by pay fulsome tribute to the Leader for showing interest in our great wee country at all. But they certainly liked it when he said: “Northern Ireland does not want special treatment.” For the home audience he struck a “shared future” theme. “A shared future is about much more than shoring up existing divisions, but one committed to backing policies which the everyday needs of all the people .” And “I will not standing idly by when others condemn Northern Ireland to the old sectarian mantras.” (But what will you do, can you do, Reg?).

With the Conservative front benchers staying fastidiously out of the local arguments it’s hard to see what is in it for local voters. Despite Patterson’s pledge to give any UU MPs “exactly the same rights” as all other Cons MPs, I echo fair deal’s well-made point in an earlier post of mine when I reported William Hague’s pledge to give English MPs a veto over English only matters:

“Such a move, as well as being a very dodgy answer to the West Lothian question (I’d be interested to see the detail of the proposals as it could create some interesting precedents), undermines the UUP/Con argument on NI MPs not turning up enough at parliament because they are going to change the rules that there will be little to no point them being there .”

The Hague plan would create two classes of MP for the first time- a constitutional and political heresy up to now. And will NI remain unaffected by the Tory commitment to reduce the total number of MPs by 10%? I could go on – much else has been raised below by Belfast Gonzo, but I‘ll leave it by concluding that the session showed that the Union strategy is very much work in progress.

  • Thomas Russell

    Does Sir Reg realise that his quote from ‘Casablanca’ is said by an jilted cynic, to a supremely opportunistic cynic, both of whom are just using each other.

  • Thereyouarenow

    Did Reg have the Orange Sash on just to give the Conservative party a Flavour of Ulster Unionism.

  • YelloSmurf

    “A shared future is about much more than shoring up existing divisions, but one committed to backing policies which the everyday needs of all the people .”

    Fine words, but the actions of the South Belfast UUP in recent days show that the UUP grass roots (or elements therein) are still more committed to the secterian carve up.

  • Prionsa Eoghann

    This is depressing stuff!

    Irishmen of the Unionist variety are surely made of better stuff than to happily fall in behind a bunch of foreigners who know little or nothing about them, and who could care even less about.

    Ffs! where is the pride? Surely in this post religious society a reckoning is to be had with your fellow Irishmen on developing a country that needs and appreciates your talents.

    Rant over!

  • Mike

    PE

    Guess the concepts of Unionism, and Britishness, have passed you by somewhat.

  • loki

    Brian- re dual mandates. Doesn’t really matter what FM and dFM think. It’s reserved to Westminster so they have no say at all. Even Alex Slamond’s giving/ given (not sure which) his up. About all that happens is we’ll hear the squeals of double and triple jobbing DUPers abpve the cheers of the public.

  • Brian Walker

    I was referring to FM and DFM in their capacities as holders of dual mandates, Robinson believing his party should just hold on until they’re sure that the Assembly is permanent – i,e, meaning it isn’t yet in his view. SF think this too, don’t they?

  • Prionsa Eoghann

    Mike

    Reading Brian’s thread made me angry and quite saddened. C’mon now! Is being the tiniest bit part player in Englands home empire really preferable to being a crucial part of what could and should be an Irish nation. They know hardly a thing about Irish people nor friggin care. You are so so so unimportant to them, it is a joke……………honestly get some pride!

    Why are you content with this? The old predjudices surely can’t blind you to common sense in this awful state of affairs.

  • Thereyouarenow

    Did Sir Reg not miss a trick.

    Could he not have organised an Orange Order parade from some street in Manchester (that did not want it) complete with Lambeg drum and Marching Band to féte his arrival at the conference hall.

    Just to give the conservative party an authentic feel of what makes so many Ulster Unionists tick.

  • barnshee

    PE
    “Reading Brian’s thread made me angry and quite saddened. C’mon now! Is being the tiniest bit part player in Englands home empire really preferable to being a crucial part of what could and should be an Irish nation”

    Ah but thats the point –us prods are not part of “your irish nation” –don`t want to be shan`t

    PS we have a good model on how to do it from PIRA if you try to make us join

  • Prionsa Eoghann

    barnshee

    Have you read the article?

    >>us prods are not part of “your irish nation”—don`t want to be shan`t< < Personal choice on your part of course. I am not of the Irish nation myself, part of the diaspora maybe but Scottish and PROUD absolutely. Pride try it! >>PS we have a good model on how to do it from PIRA if you try to make us join<< Basic premise that you are alluding to is highly flawed in that the IRA were massacring Prods, anyhow didn't the Irish recieve more than enough of state violence, so why should they fear the remnants of those who would rather denigrate themselves at an Englishmans feet than take an equal part in their nation? Anyhow good that you are giving people the heads up for your proposed murderous adventures. Would it really be worth it though?

  • Mayoman

    Barnshee: that ‘model’ pre-dates the PIRA, for a more accurate dating of the ‘model’ see Edward Carson and the UVF.

    On another point, you seem to imply that the PIRA were justified in their actions. In fact, should a UI come about, it would be by agreement between the north and south and so, underpinned by a flawed, but at least some degree of, democracy. At least the PIRA had the correct analysis of no democratic legitimacy for partition, even if their ‘model’ was abhorrent to me and many, many others. You suggest that even when some degree of democracy abolishes partition, ‘prods’ (unionists for us less sectarian folks) would still take up arms? If so, any damnation of PIRA is hypocritical in the extreme.

    On yet another point, I know of many ‘prods’ who are very happy to be part of an Irish nation.

  • loki

    Brian, How long do they need to bed down the Assembly? it’s been with us for over a decade- albeit a bit shakily at times. Do you not htink we’d have more confidence in devolution staying if Peter and Marty and all the other greedy bastards stayed in one place and earned one salary? anyway, doesn’t matter how much they want double-jobbing- Cameron’s been clear on this for months, it’s ending

  • Joe

    Unionism continuing to kick itself in the nuts…

    *munches popcorn*

  • Reader

    Prionsa Eoghann: You are so so so unimportant to them, it is a joke……………honestly get some pride!
    Whereas the Republicans love us so very much – even more than they love each other, sometimes.

  • Thereyouarenow

    Is there any truth in the rumour that younger Tories were expecting Tango man or at least an Orange man but it was only Reg (sashless)that turned up.

  • Prionsa Eoghann

    Reader

    Hand on heart.

    Who do you believe values you more, your Irish countrymen or the English?

    Should you choose to answer honestly then my previous rants are spot on and I reckon you know it.

  • Reader

    Prionsa Eoghann: Who do you believe values you more, your Irish countrymen or the English?
    The ones who didn’t blow up my town centre twice during the troubles, the ones who didn’t try to burn down my parents’ shop, the ones who paid for my education and the NHS and the ones who don’t abuse and insult everything unionist day in and day out in Slugger.
    Go on – guess.

  • Prionsa Eoghann

    Interesting definitions Reader.

    I’ll guess that you would have been happiest in another era when honest upright britishers were teaching wogs and other assorted dirty foreigners lessons for daring not to be british.

    Yep my comments are around about as mature as yours, difference is that I was not being serious……………..well not entirely.

  • Prionsa Eoghann

    >>the ones who paid for my education and the NHS<< Save us your whorish sponging ways............................dignity eh? Pride eh?!?! Have you no higher ambition than to be a bought and paid for afterthought man? When Scotland becomes independent and we are no longer there to help the English subsidise you, let's hope that paying for the upkeep of your sectarian valhalla becomes too much for them and they bounce you and your kind...........hard! Pride eh? Dignity eh?

  • Mayoman

    I didn’t blow up your town centre, Reader, or try to burn down anyone’s shop. But I know I stood in awe of a pair of 18th century tapestries celebrating victories of King Billy over James ll when I stood in the old House of Lords in Dublin (now the headqaurters of Bank of Ireland). It was my history in my capital, and its that history that binds us. Its part of me, as much as much as the 1916 rising, and a UI would acknowledge and embrace that to a far greater extent than any divided nation, or any type of UK, which, as PE points out, simply doesn’t want or care to know.

    The Irish nation isn’t defined by the violent elements of either tradition. To think otherwise is to be very blinkered indeed.

  • Reader

    Prionsa Eoghann: I’ll guess that you would have been happiest in another era when honest upright britishers were teaching wogs and other assorted dirty foreigners lessons for daring not to be british.
    I have no idea how you got from what I wrote to what you said there. Is there some connecting logic you didn’t bother to run through?
    Prionsa Eoghann: Save us your whorish sponging ways
    So, who paid for your education and medical care? Did your parents sign you up to BUPA and Eton?
    But really, I just answered *your* question, about what the British thought of us, not vice versa.
    Also, would it calm down your reflexive hysterical anti-unionist rant to know that I, for one, work in the private sector, for a profit making, corporation tax paying company, and while I don’t claim any moral edge over people with different employment or none, at least I am not a sponger in any technical sense.
    And as for your point about Scotland – isn’t Scotland also in receipt of a subvention under the terms of the Barnett formula?

  • Reader

    Mayoman: The Irish nation isn’t defined by the violent elements of either tradition. To think otherwise is to be very blinkered indeed.
    Of course not. I do not regard most or even many Nationalists as potential Shinners (except locally). It is just that Provisional Republicanism has shaped relationships between the two traditions for most of the last 40 years. They were, as I am sure you will recognise, hard to ignore.
    And on this page you have seen the spiteful and derogatory rants of PE and Thereyouarenow, who are presumably not currently in favour of blowing the place up, but do seem quite keen on putting people down.

  • anne warren

    “us prods are not part of “your irish nation”—don`t want to be shan`t”

    What a very sad statement. Has any other religious/ethnic group that is stably settled for practically 400 years maintained such an intransigent attitude and refused to integrate with the majority of people living in the country? None comes to mind.

  • Reader

    anne warren: maintained such an intransigent attitude and refused to integrate with the majority of people living in the country?
    The word Nation in Barnshee’s original point was a giveaway – it’s a political identity. Unionists have been part of the UK for 200 years, and have integrated rather better with that notion than some of our very nearest neighbours have managed. Still – let’s give them another hundred years, eh?

  • barshee

    “On yet another point, I know of many ‘prods’ who are very happy to be part of an Irish nation.”

    Winhin a population whwre 3 in every 100 are prods (and these in clusters) you musttravel the lenght and breadth of the south of ireland regularly if you “know namy prods”

    LOL

  • barnshee

    17.Reader

    Hand on heart.

    “Who do you believe values you more, your Irish countrymen or the English?

    Should you choose to answer honestly then my previous rants are spot on and I reckon you know it. ”

    I despise the “irish contryman” you refer to above –he vallues “me” to the extent taht he connived at the murder of directy forebears in the “south of ireland”– he voted in and supported governments that funded and armed murder gangs in NI–He applauded while 17000 prods were driven form Derry`s city side –He cheered on the IRA until even he could not stomach Enniskellen and Warrington.

    His”deathbed” conversion from violence was produced by embarassment Finally in the words of Danny Morrison he had manners put on him via dublin and monaghan bombings and he suddenly realised that thosde nasty prods still had a sting—- now he is sweetness and light
    LOL

  • barnshee

    “12.Barnshee: that ‘model’ pre-dates the PIRA, for a more accurate dating of the ‘model’ see Edward Carson and the UVF.”

    I am unable to trace Carsons mob

    Blowing up women and children in chip shops

    Attacking scouts and girl guides attendin rememberance services

    Creaping up behind policemen and shooting them in the neck

    Firebombing and murdering dog club meetings

    I would be grateful if you could provide me with the appropriatereferences.

  • Mayoman

    Carson built the ‘model’ Barnsee, the UV/UDA/RUC/BA/UDR/IRA/INLA etc all built further on it. He may not have been the ‘best’ at it (the war got in the way there), but he was the first.

    Oh, there are many ‘prods’ round my way. My town is dominated by a Church of Ireland Church. I have ‘prods’ in may family circle, and I have met others through buisness and social life that I count as friends. You don’t have to look far, just have an open mind. I know how the poisonous attitudes of some may preclude that (tempted to add a bebo-style ‘LOL’ here), but down here we are over the legacy of Carson’s ‘model’. Imagine, a place where ‘prods’ and ‘taigs’ mix, do business and socilaise in equality and friendship! Beyond belief Barnshee?? I’d totally believe you have no comprehension of it. Closed minds etc…….

  • Frustrated democrat

    As someone who attended all 4 days of the conference and attended many fringe meetings, I think I am qualified to comment of the conference.

    The support for what is happening in Northern Ireland with the UUP is overwhelming, I spoke to people from North, East, South and West as well as the RoI and heard not one negative voice.

    The Union was mentioned in many speeches and every time was applauded, Sir Reg and Iain Parsley were exceptionally well received, as were the many members of the UUP who attended. For the record Sir Reg made a speech which ticked the right boxes and was well presented, well done Sir Reg.

    Owen Paterson underlined the fact that the current economics here are not sustainable and their would be plans to start it on the road to a quickly growing private sector, dual mandates would be banned, and all 18 seats would be contested.

    The plan is a work in progress but one that is progressing very rapidly, which will in the end have a NI MP or MP’s at the centre on the UK Government and maybe even a minister.

    There are those who said it would never get this far, however it will have 18 candidates some from UUP backgrounds and some from Conservative backgrounds. They will be a diverse group from across the community who will have a manifesto for the future that will affect everyone in NI, they will offer an opportunity for people to vote for the future not the past like most of the other parties, they will offer the opportunity to vote for candidates who are pro UK not Ulster Nationalists.

    The choices will be there the voters will have the chance to look backwards to their ancestors or forwards to their children and grandchildren. They can honour their ancestors but at the same time vote for the future of their families.

    The Conservative conference was major step forwards for those who believe in the Union and strengthening it and a major setback for those who want a semi detached Northern Ireland or worse.

  • Wilde Rover

    I think it’s cute that people are wringing their hands over the West Lothian Question.

    Westminster will become a glorified county council, with the regional administrations lower level glorified county councils.

    The future will not be molded by a prime minister, but by a president.

    The UK is being transformed into a province of Europe. Does it really matter how it is divided up internally?

  • Dave

    It matters in the sense that the people of those EU regions must continue to be led to believe that they are still sovereign nations who can still determine their own affairs in accordance with their own traditions, national interests, and will, while the EU is busy harmonising the ‘former’ nations of Europe into a homogenised soup, replacing their national interest with an EU interest, and circumscribing their will. So it matters for another decade or so and then it won’t matter.

  • Prionsa Eoghann

    Reader

    Scotland is a net contributor ma man. We get less back than we put in, what we get back is on average more than the average Englishman, but less than the south-east of England who put in more than Scotland. Then again when we count their income in this respect it includes many company H.Q.s that pay wages across the UK and most government ministries, heavily skewing the returns in their favour. Anyhow, I digress as my Scottishness in not defined by money, handouts or lack of, or even lies/myths long believed to the contrary.

    Please let’s not detract from your earlier contributions regarding the state that you are happy to retain at the expense of your dignity. How you are happy to sponge from us and the English. You are clearly happy to be in the deplorable unambitious state of affairs you find yourself in. I guess all the manifestations of Taig-hating that we see manifest itself are really to cover up for a woeful lack of self-worth and directionless angst. let’s hope a new generation does not have such liliputian hang-ups.

    barnshee

    >>He applauded while 17000 prods were driven form Derry`s city side<< Who drove them? And don't you think that they had awfy slow trucks considering the 'driving' or forcing out as you allege took scores of years? Just go onto the genocide along the border comedy and the concentration camps in the badlands of Donegal, it has much more credence. Just go back to advocating killing Catholics as per your response earlier. That and your usual verbal grenades are about your worth. Why do no Unionists believe that they are being sold short here, forgetting the likes of reader who typifies his countrymen as bombers and his betters as those who pay his way. Or Barnshee who threatens to kill his countrymen should his country re-unite. Is the Union really worth not having a shred of dignity, or a false premise of thinking yourself british when the English do not really consider you so? Absolute and utter madness.

  • Barnshee

    “Who drove them? And don’t you think that they had awfy slow trucks considering the ‘driving’ or forcing out as you allege took scores of years? Just go onto the genocide along the border comedy and the concentration camps in the badlands of Donegal, it has much more credence”

    The derry catholics drove them out– as in a previous post “qui bonum” —who now owns their property?

    Incidentally a huge tranch left 1968-71 (I was one of them) So much for “scores of years” When you knowfuck all about somthing its perhaps better to shut up?

  • Barnshee

    PE

    Something else you know fuckall about

    The Barnett formula dictates that Scotland, which has around eight per cent of the UK population, gets a fixed quota of ten per cent of the cash for public services. Even poor English regions such as the North-East receive less money than prosperous areas of Scotland.

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-392231/My-scheme-gives-Scots-cash-aid-says-peer.html#ixzz0TRC6p5RA

  • Republic of Connaught

    I always chuckle at the pathetic sectarian ignorance of Barnshee and his ilk in Ulster when he starts shedding a few tears about how the evil Irish Catholics abused the Prods of Ireland.

    How far back shall we go in Irish history to make a mockery of this Orange drivel? Or do the likes of Barnshee not learn the history of eh, Ireland. Is it only the history of English Kings and Queens you are taught?

    One would swear reading buffoons like Barnshee that it was a Catholic Irish minority who aided and abetted a foreign crown for centuries in repressing a Protestant majority in Ireland.
    Oh wait, the penal laws weren’t actually against Irish Prods, were they?

    I’m afraid if Prods in the north east of Ireland start whinging about historical Catholic Irish wrongs they need to learn the history of Ireland and have good look in the mirror before talking utter hypocritical shite.

  • Brit

    “Irishmen of the Unionist variety are surely made of better stuff than to happily fall in behind a bunch of foreigners who know little or nothing about them, and who could care even less about.

    Ffs! where is the pride? Surely in this post religious society a reckoning is to be had with your fellow Irishmen on developing a country that needs and appreciates your talents.” PE

    Typical arrogance and reactionary anti-English xenophobia that one often finds from our Republican friends.

    Unionist Irishmen, as you call them are different from the rest of the Irish – they represent a different nation on the same landmass. They differ by religion, by culture, by history and by political affiliation. They are British and have been so, in law and in identity for hundreds of years. And before the plantations that their ancestors were (mostly) British unless exotic Hugenots.

    So the “bunch” of foreigners are not actually foreigners but fellow Brits. Britain is a much bigger state than Rep of Ireland, and unlike Ireland it is composed of different nations and is more culturally diverse. It is not surprising that many Englishmen know bugger all about NI.

    You telling the Ulster Prods that they’ve got no pride and should embrace their Irishness is like me telling those in the RoI that they should have remained in the Union and worked with it to create a non-sectarian multinational Republic of Britain and Ireland. That they should not have wasted their energies on nationalism as opposed to the struggle for workers rights, equality and justice within a new progressive British identity. That they should not have wrapped their Irishness in such a Catholic and anti-British identity which pushed Prods away.

    That a people who have always been British and never Irish (in the sense of the RoI) want to remain British is perfectly understandable. It is not for others to tell them what they are or should be

  • Prionsa Eoghann

    Brit

    Sorry but I simply do not buy your repeated simplistic mis-take on basic history anymore. Gaun pockle yir knockle!

    Barnshee, Barnshee, Barnshee(as in dearie, dearie me!)

    >>The derry catholics drove them out—as in a previous post “qui bonum”—-who now owns their property?< < Bullshit and discredited lies won't work with grown ups. How about supplying us with an incident where a Prod or Unionist was driven from Derry for being that, and where their property was missapropriated? >>Incidentally a huge tranch left 1968-71 (I was one of them) So much for “scores of years” When you knowfuck all about somthing its perhaps better to shut up?< < Language ya silly fecker! If indeed a huge tranch(we know what ye mean) left it certainly wasn't because they were 'driven out'....... silly. These were the years that those pesky Taigs stood up for themselves and dared to demand equality, civil rights and all that. Surely you must have heard of it if you were there as claimed. My best guess is that if plenty left it was due to bigots not wanting to breathe the same air as those uppity Taigs in a majority Taig city. A kind of white flight only with hillbilly's ;¬) >>Something else you know fuckall about

    The Barnett formula dictates….<< What did I tell you about language ya silly fecker! Obviously your comprehension is severely lacking, and not wishing to trump your self proclaimed moment of glory but,.................should you have cared to read my response to your more articulate partner in crime 'Reader' you will find that I covered what your link pointed out regarding Scotland getting more per person than England. However like many articles/news stories/myths/lies it fails to point out why, or how much Scotland puts in and how little she gets back. How much areas like London and the south-east get from government etc. I will not shy away from these inconvenient facts should you care to know more. I would go on but I fear it would be wasted on the likes of yersel.

  • Reader

    PE: You are clearly happy to be in the deplorable unambitious state of affairs you find yourself in.
    I see Barnshee had put you right over Barnett, but you satisfied yourself with an unsupported denial – ‘covered’ indeed! The Barnett formula is the payout side, but the revenue side makes things *worse* for you, not better. It’s not as though Scotland is a bustling hive of private enterprise, these days, is it?
    Prionsa Eoghann: My best guess is that if plenty left it was due to bigots not wanting to breathe the same air as those uppity Taigs in a majority Taig city. A kind of white flight only with hillbilly’s
    Stunningly offensive – and unsupported by any evidence whatsoever. But not an unexpected tack – your temper has not been good since I pointed out how Irish Republicanism had created an impression on the unionist population. It’s as though you had a bit of an emotional investment in the reputation of the Provos. Am I right?

  • Prionsa Eoghann

    Reader

    >>I see Barnshee had put you right over Barnett, but you satisfied yourself with an unsupported denial – ‘covered’ indeed! The Barnett formula is the payout side, but the revenue side makes things *worse* for you, not better. It’s not as though Scotland is a bustling hive of private enterprise, these days, is it?< < I may have to reassess whom I consider to be the biggest clown out of you two. You may be slightly more articulate but I fear your comprehension is as bad if not worse than the terrorist murdering advocate barnshee. How can Barnshee have put me right over something I have already mentioned ya numptie *shakes heid* His link merely goes into slightly greater detail than my original Scots get more per person than the English. That is three times that I have covered this now, 3 get it! Apart from a very narrow English whingefest the article contains nothing more of interest. >>but the revenue side makes things *worse* for you, not better. It’s not as though Scotland is a bustling hive of private enterprise, these days, is it?<< Please show me where the revenue side makes things *worse*(sic) for us? Prima facie we have oil and Whiskey two of the big five revenue raisers for the threasury. Also government subsidies apart, London and the south-east gains big time from capital projects at the rest of the UK's expense like the Millenium dome and the Olympics which at last count is taking just under £3 grand out of everyman wummin and wean's pocket in the UK. Will I in Glesga benefit from that? Will you? Last para of yours Reader; God luv ye ya pc merchant ye. I have guessed as to the gradual withdrawal of Unionists from the west bank, given prevailing and ongoing(sadly) attitudes to their Catholic countrymen it is an educated guess that they did not want to live as equals. Much much more credible than yir offsider Barnshee hysterical claim. Care to support his mad assertions?, because he certainly can't. btw You are not Ian grey, because your performance reminds me of his yesterday in Holyrood. ps. Command word ENGLAND, you may wish to bow down!

  • DerTer

    Brian

    Aren’t you sorry you started this?

  • Reader

    PE: God luv ye ya pc merchant ye. I have guessed as to the gradual withdrawal of Unionists from the west bank, given prevailing and ongoing(sadly) attitudes to their Catholic countrymen it is an educated guess that they did not want to live as equals.
    So if you find a Prod who used to live in Derry, you will feel confident that you have just met a bigot? And any stories about businesses being burnt out, or their kids being beaten up for wearing the wrong school uniform would just be a smoke screen…

  • Prionsa Eoghann

    DerTer

    I’m sorry I started this. I just couldn’t believe that Irishmen of any hue could belittle themselves so.

    Reader

    >>So if you find a Prod who used to live in Derry, you will feel confident that you have just met a bigot?< < Eh...... no!!!!! You really are having an Ian Grey moment. I made an educated guess that given prevailling bigoted feeling towards Catholics. It wouldn't take the feckless red-heided eedjit step-brother of a rocket scientist to arrive at the conclusion that many would have left because equality would have been too much for them. I stand by this. >>…just be a smoke screen…<< Tell me more or it really is just a smoke screen, and anyhow what you describe would be normal for many Nationalists in various parts of the north of Ireland. Apart from the pogroms and known small attempts at ethnic cleansing from Unionists this piss poor attempt to equate Unionist drift from Derry over several decades could be taken as insulting if it was not so comedic. Anyhow Arise Sir Reader, England expects that you will hereby chuck your sponging ways and seek redemption for the past errors. No more liliputian ambitions to be a flea on the lapdog of England. Sorry! Had to amuse myself, it get's boring swotting lies and myths about Scotland, exasperating pointing out the idiocy of the Derry Prods 'fleeing for their lives' over several decades. And trying and singularly failing to bring to the attention of the intellectually afflicted the horrifyingly degrading state of affairs they find themselves in. Like a dug that's been battered too much and pisses itself over so much as a look. Much the same reaction from Unionists of no stature at the idea of cutting the apron strings from the bigotry that blights their minds. And as night follows day prevents the unification of Ireland. btw. I am stone cold sober and having re-read the above I really need to do something about that.

  • barnshee

    “One would swear reading buffoons like Barnshee that it was a Catholic Irish minority who aided and abetted a foreign crown for centuries in repressing a Protestant majority in Ireland.
    Oh wait, the penal laws weren’t actually against Irish Prods, were they?

    I’m afraid if Prods in the north east of Ireland start whinging about historical Catholic Irish wrongs they need to learn the history of Ireland and have good look in the mirror before talking utter hypocritical shite. ”

    Indeed check yer history

    Dermot the poof wants to be chief buck cat so he invites in Strongbow/ welsh/french/english thug who takes over-s–tupid dermot

    Irish/etc then spend centuries taking side of losers against Engerland

    eg The

    Spanish
    French
    Jacobites
    French again

    “LEADERS “like the ONeill cosy up to the brit then tray the old stab in the back routine -brits get pissed off tear the arse out of them- the brave irish leaders er get offside “flight of the earls” LOL (elizabethean period)

    Antagonises brits so much -plantation of ulster what wankers

    Next Disaster

    Support Stuart cause against A REPUBLICAN (CROMWELL) gets him really pissed of and then whines when he reacts. Cromwell behaves no worse in Ireland than he did in england (cf Battle of Naseby)– rise of mopery

    Oh I nearly for got the invite to the french in the late 17th century

    Attempting to piss in the eye of a more organised stronger neighbour brought it own reaction.

    Neighbour got fed up tried to get out Try King George V speech at partition- read it carefully- says essentially -sort this out yourself and fuck off.

    Prod crys of HOME RULE= ROME RULE fully justified by stupid government whose leader was “kindly sent for” by the RC big wig.

    “Free” irish state solves it problems by exporting 10`s of thousands of its citizens to engerland who beyond belief take them in

    Oireland rescued from penury by EC when uk joins and it piggybacks in.

    Remains to this day the highest PER CAPITA recipient of EC aid

    Squanders it -and is now on the way back to penury

    Check the history
    dispute the facts

    eg Dermot not poof
    Did not invite strongbow
    Did not support SPAIN FRANCE STUARTS ETC

    PS My grouping -Presbyterians were subject to the penal laws- that why I have relatives in the USA

    It would apper that your grasp of history is even more tenuous than I thought

  • barnshe

    PE

    “Bullshit and discredited lies won’t work with grown ups. How about supplying us with an incident where a Prod or Unionist was driven from Derry for being that, and where their property was missapropriated?”

    I will give two examples

    1 Forebear fled W Cork in 20`s farmer-no security force connections–bullets in the post- a prod – small farm sold at auction one –only one RC bidder– farm sold for 50% of similar farm 5 years before.

    2 Personally lived on city side in Derry Danesfort area – few prods in street. 1968-1971
    Low level vandalism- windows broken at night -car vandalised. -not a squeek from my neighbours. after nearly 3 years had enough. move out end up with crippling loans on two houses eventually sell at purchase price 4 yrs previously took years to recover.
    History repeats itself
    As I say when you know fuck all its perhaps better to shut up

  • Reader

    PE: And trying and singularly failing to bring to the attention of the intellectually afflicted the horrifyingly degrading state of affairs they find themselves in. Like a dug that’s been battered too much and pisses itself over so much as a look. Much the same reaction from Unionists of no stature at the idea of cutting the apron strings from the bigotry that blights their minds.
    Yet another applicant for the position of Unionist Outreach coordinator for SF has failed the practical test…
    PE: It wouldn’t take the feckless red-heided eedjit step-brother of a rocket scientist to arrive at the conclusion that many would have left because equality would have been too much for them. I stand by this.
    Your argument demands that *all* of them left for this reason. Or was there any material reason for the rest to leave? Also, your logic is circular – (they were bigots, therefore their reasons for leaving would have been bigoted, therefore they were bigots.) Obviously, that kind of logic is OK when discussing Provo recruitment, but it’s a bit heavy handed for explaining why several thousand people left their homes.

  • barnshee

    “Please show me where the revenue side makes things *worse*(sic) for us? Prima facie we have oil and Whiskey two of the big five revenue raisers for the threasury. Also government subsidies apart, London and the south-east gains big time from capital projects at the rest of the UK’s expense like the Millenium dome and the Olympics which at last count is taking just under £3 grand out of everyman wummin and wean’s pocket in the UK. Will I in Glesga benefit from that? ”

    Who pays the revenue on the drink-the english -what the scots pay is minimal

    BUT best of all you DO NOT HAVE WHISKEY you HAVE WHISKY –WHISKEY is made in Iteland world class wanking at its best

  • Brit

    “Brit

    Sorry but I simply do not buy your repeated simplistic mis-take on basic history anymore. Gaun pockle yir knockle!”

    Two nations on one island. Its a long established perspective / analysis and propounded by many from Ireland, Britain and elswhere, from left to liberal to right and amongst Catholics, Prods and others.

    You may adopt a different view but the historical facts are consistent with the two nations theory. Your extremely long winded series of exchanges about this on a previous thread was mainly about your contention that the two nations did not arise “accidentally” but I did not understand you to contend that there were not two nations on the island of Ireland. There are at least three nations in the island of Britain as you well know so there is nothing inherently strange about it.

  • Prionsa Eoghann

    Reader

    You have nothing to add, most people usually don’t comment anymore rather than advertise their predicament in print. Your offsider has plenty to say, some incomprehensible, some some idiotic, all rather pointless.

    Barnshee etc etc(speak ae the devil!)

    I will ignore your pathetic derisory attempts to equate getting driven from your home and neighbours not speaking up for you over minor acts of vandalism, or fluid property prices in a different era and time. Have you no shame? Couldn’t you even make up something worthwhile ya hauf wit? Anyway;

    >>Who pays the revenue on the drink-the english -what the scots pay is minimal< < I will be charitable and guess that you are once again having problems with comprehension and not putting this forward as a serious debating point.........................oh wait remind me again of the Prods 'driven' from their homes in Derry. Pay attention, we in Scotland produce the whisky and the treasury profits from the worldwide sales. What your point is only you know. >>BUT best of all you DO NOT HAVE WHISKEY you HAVE WHISKY—WHISKEY is made in Iteland world class wanking at its best<< CLASSIC!!!! Remember when slagging someone else about sloppy spelling. CHECK YOR OWN YA NUMPTIE ROFL!

  • Prionsa Eoghann

    YOUR ………………….even, lol!

  • Greenflag

    Brit ,

    ‘The historical facts are consistent with the two nations theory.’

    Mostly agree. I would add that the ‘two nations ‘ in Northern Ireland are of more recent vintage than the three in Britain and thus have had less time to develop . They also have more porous and indeterminate border between the NI ‘nations ‘ which serves to complicate the issue . The cultural border is now at least 30 miles north of the political border and probably 50 to 60 miles east of it’s current western border . The present border is out of date . As Belfast is now a 50/50 city with a growing Irish element then it can be seen that any future NI border would have to be largely east of the Bann.

    ‘ There are at least three nations in the island of Britain as you well know so there is nothing inherently strange about it.’

    Good point . However nobody disputes the Welsh English or Scots English borders or is trying to remove them . They are permanent ‘fixtures ‘ regardless of the political future of the UK .

    That is not the case for Northern Ireland no matter how much Unionists might want to ‘cement ‘ the current border .

    But you have made an excellent case for supporting a fair repartition of Northern Ireland so that the cultural and ‘national ‘ identity border more closely approximates the current out of date political one .

    A new border would also remove the necessity for mandatory power sharing which is so distasteful to the majority of unionists and who only go through whatever motions they have to because of Westminster pressure !

  • Brit

    “But you have made an excellent case for supporting a fair repartition of Northern Ireland so that the cultural and ‘national ’ identity border more closely approximates the current out of date political one .”

    The logic of repartition is difficult to contest and a proponent of repartition is by definition a partitionist, which is deviating from mainstream Republicanism / Nationalism. Your argument with Unionists is where the border is rather than on the concept of a partition of the island.

    The practical problems with repartition are:-

    1. It goes against the GFA settlement so is probably dead in the water

    2. Aligned to 1. above it doesn’t have significant political support from either community (although perhaps the Prods will discover it when 50% demographics arives.

    3. It may be a short term interim solution until the demographics change again – are we going to keep repartitioning until in 2400 there will be one British village in Down / Antrim?

    Another alternative radical solution would be to have a united Ireland as a political entity separate from mainland Britain but with very great devolution for NI (and with the British government still having an input into NI affairs) and a loose federation of Britain and Ireland (something closer than the EU but more separate than devloved Scotland is from England).

    Ivory tower stuff clearly, but interesting nonetheless.