“Afterwards, Mr Robinson and Mr McGuinness gave separate news conferences.”

The BBC has the latest, such as it is, on the devolution of policing and justice powers after 2 hours of talks at Downing St.

Afterwards, Mr Robinson and Mr McGuinness gave separate news conferences. Mr Robinson said they discussed a wide range of issues but no overall deal had been agreed. He said there was still more work to do and he would now be having discussions with party colleagues. The deputy first minister, Mr McGuinness, said progress was significant and he was hopeful a deal could be concluded on Wednesday.

That would be in New York. Where there will apparently be another attempt to utilise US pressure. And nevermind the destination.. But why devolve justice in this context? Further comment from the NI First Minister

“Whilst I will be travelling to New York on Wednesday morning, I have made it clear that these financial discussions will not be concluded in the States.”

, , , , , ,

  • Expenses111

    Did anyone else see Conal McDevitt on UTV making a laughing stock out off himself? He left the party 8 years ago. Why is the media still entertaining his wild fantasies?????

  • Pete whitcroft

    Deal done. Subject to approval by Willie McCrea.

  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    Pete,

    re. ” But why devolve justice in this context?”

    You still dont get it after all this time even though on each occasion I go through it slowly with you.

    The first thing you have to remember is that Police and Justice is part of the Political and Peace process – (something that many Unionists have difficulty with as they see the troubles as simply coinicidental collective bad behaviour by a large number of Nationalists at the same time ) and we need to ensure it is completed as soon as possible.

    Second, most (non Unionists) believe that failure to have Police and Justice administered in Ireland will be seen as bad faith by Unionists trying to back track on the GFA/STA at least partly becuase it is a key Republican demand and will more than likely lead to collapse of Stormo.

    Third, as pointed out by the SOS the transfer of police will undermine the Republican dissers by having Irish people adminstering the law.

    Fourth, there is no time like the present – otherwise slippage might turn into postponement and Jimbo of the TUV will be boosted in his desire to undermine the political process.

    Fifth, there is a serious crime problem that needs local, specialised and immediate attention.

    Sixth, this is an extremely difficult issue for Unionism and if this is resolved then other mattters, which have been held up by this one, will be easier to resolve.

    Seventh, we wont have to listen to you, the UUP and the SDLP etc jibber-jabbering about politburos in unconcealed excitement that the whole Stormo edifice might collapse around us.

    Eighth, Irish people are good at this sort of thing and we should have even more cooperation between the 2 police forces on the island.

    Ninth, it will draw the Alliance party into the Stormo tent and be reward for their generally positive contribution ot Norn Iron affairs.

    Tenth, it will be an encouragement to investors that Norn iron is settled and sensible enough to take on the power it was agreed that it should have.

  • Sam Thompson

    ‘Third, as pointed out by the SOS the transfer of police will undermine the Republican dissers by having Irish people adminstering the law’

    David Ford is Welsh…

  • Pete Baker

    Sammy

    “we need to ensure it is completed as soon as possible.”

    We?

    “it is a key Republican demand and will more than likely lead to collapse of Stormo.”

    Why? Are Sinn Fein going to walk out? Go ahead.

    “undermine the Republican dissers”

    Yeah. Like they care who’s administrating the NI section of the UK.

    “there is no time like the present”

    Convincing as ever.

    “serious crime problem that needs local, specialised and immediate attention.”

    Well, there’s local specialisation. But not on the crime prevention front. And operational control will remain the preserve of the Chief Constable under the scrutiny of the Policing Board – No change.

    “if this is resolved then other mattters, which have been held up by this one, will be easier to resolve.”

    Pure fiction. Better to see progres on other, more mundane, matters first.

    “we wont have to listen to you, the UUP and the SDLP etc jibber-jabbering about politburos”

    The polit-bureau will remain regardless – hope to see you recommending a change towards a more democratic system, eg weighted majority.

    “Eight” isn’t worth replying to.

    “it will draw the Alliance party into the Stormo tent and be reward for their generally positive contribution ot Norn Iron affairs.”

    Eh?!?

    “it will be an encouragement to investors that Norn iron is settled and sensible enough to take on the power it was agreed that it should have.”

    That will only come with evidence of a sensible approach to adminstration. What powers are being adminstrated is irrelevant.

    Is Wales lacking investment because they do not have policing and justice devolved?

  • Pete Baker

    Your problem, Sammy, is that you are in thrall to the optics – not the reality.

  • KieranJ

    Two losers lost in the limelight of New York.

    Dev would have had their guts for a necktie(now there’s an old Irish expression)if he were still alive.

    When Eamon de Valera made a trip to the United States, he came home with millions of dollars for Ireland.

    These two whores are on an ego trip.

  • Belfast Gonzo

    Robbo and Marty have a disagreement over the timing. MMcG says it could happen by Wednesday, while PR says it won’t happen until after America and the DUP ratify it.

    Well, that’s how the DUP are spinning it. I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt and say they’ll go for it.

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  • igor

    So once the Shinners see P&J devolved will they become targets for the Dissidents?

    Alliance will need time too. They will have to get the phone box armoured before the Party Conference

  • 2050

    Be good to see the DUP grow a set of balls on this issue & complete what was agreed instead of eroding public confidence.

  • Harry T

    The devolvement of P&J and the ‘bounty’ that will arrive with it is simple the latest Republican fantasy about the Golden Future Time.

    Way back when the issue of the day was Sinn Fein’s involvement in talks right through to urging unionists to ‘jump’ and on to getting the DUP onboard each hurdle was promoted by Republicans as the big thing that was going to break the logjam.

    All were false dawns as will be P&J.

    The bottom line is that mandatory coalition is a failing system. Like a poorly anchored Christmas tree the Assembly is unsteady and hanging the P&J bauble on the branches won’t keep it upright.

  • Wiliam Heuston

    I always love it when I hear Republicans talking about investment, tackling crime, etc etc….when those current crop of terrorists were Sinn Fein / IRA’s mates until a couple of years ago. The crime rate and anti-social behaviour in certain areas can be directly linked to what the terrorists now in Government have shown their people….if you riot, destroy and demean your neighbour, then you will have success….

    As to investment or lack of it over the past thirty years as the terrorists currently on sabbatical claim was entirely due to the massive investment required in security measures and compensation for the destruction caused by those who people like Sammy McNally support.

    When the lunatics are given a say in running the ayslum, as was shown when the terrorists had a say in running the jails, it leads to nothing but disaster. McGuinness as our effectual Deputy Prime Minister, wouldn’t have been tolerated anywhere else in the democratic world….even our near neighbours in the Republic wouldn’t hear of it….but then their nationalist electorate didn’t vote in any great numbers, for the representatives of murderers.

  • 2050

    AP

    Hard to see anything positive in your post. What’s the matter , is democracy to much for you? When the 2 goverments and main political partys make an agreement don’t you think it should be carried out ?

    If not I’d be interested to hear your alternative solution to the way forward for us all

  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    Pete,

    re. optics.

    Trotting out cliches doent really advance the discussion.

    The GFA/STA are carefully balanced agreements designed to make politics at Stormo work and its toally disingenuous for naysers of whatever political hue to complain that Stormo doesnt work at the same time as arguing against the full implementation of these agreements.

    We can start to judge SF and the DUP after the agreement – which has been unnecessarily delayed by the DUP – has been fully implemented.

    The reality is that, at least in the case of many Unionist naysayers, they actually dont want Stormo to work because they simply cannot accept the principles that underpin the the GFA/STA.

    Archie P, I take it form your remarks that you fall into this latter category?

  • igor

    Awwww Sammy you force me to fisk you again as I think Pete was just too easy on you:-

    “The first thing you have to remember is that Police and Justice is part of the Political and Peace process”

    We did notice that Sammy. The RUC has gone as has the Army from our streets. We had trouble with some of the more gratuitous issues but we swallowed hard and accepted them in the interest of peace

    “many Unionists …… see the troubles as simply coinicidental collective bad behaviour ”

    Utter nonsense

    “and we need to ensure it is completed as soon as possible.”

    but who decides when its possible…that’s the problem

    “Second, most (non Unionists) believe that failure to have Police and Justice administered in Ireland will be seen as bad faith by Unionists ”

    Lets remember how we got here and just why it has taken so long. While we all signed up from the start SF then drew out every concession they could get for every step forward. This has taught the DUP well.

    Along the way we also had a few small things that delayed implementation including:-

    * delays in decommissioning by PIRA
    * delays in SF endorsement of PSNI
    * political foot dragging by SF as they sought to drag parts of the movement with them
    * the Northern Bank Robbery
    * the Stormont PIRA Spy Ring
    * the Castlereagh burglary
    * the McCartney Murder and Cover Up
    * the time taken to break SF and PIRAs links with organised crime
    * the gravely misjudged ‘they haven’t gone away’ boast

    all of which damaged unionist confidence. These were not in the hands of Unionists but gave rise to real concerns and destroyed Trimble

    “and will more than likely lead to collapse of Stormo.”

    Well if its blackmail again is that any real basis for a settlement?

    “as pointed out by the SOS the transfer of police will undermine the Republican dissers by having Irish people adminstering the law.”

    What utter bollox.

    This will remain a UK jurisdiction.

    The PPS will be accountable to the AG. The courts are British. The Policing Board has had to get another English Chief Constable as they have driven out all the senior ex RUC officers with the ability to do the job, the nationalist members wouldn’t appoint one anyway and senior garda wouldnt touch the job with a bargepole even if the Unionists would consider them.

    “Fourth, there is no time like the present – otherwise slippage might turn into postponement and Jimbo of the TUV will be boosted in his desire to undermine the political process.”

    That’s a matter of judgement. Unionist have said they agree in principle with the change its a matter of when not if. We waited 40 years for SF, they can wait a few for us.

    “Fifth, there is a serious crime problem that needs local, specialised and immediate attention.”

    No there’s not. We have one of the lowest rates of crime in the UK. And even if there was, what would devolution do for it that isnt already in place. The recent leaked report on the state of PSNI was damning – and developed under the supervsion of our devolved police board which seems to spend more time on internal disputes and junketing than anything else. Just look at the recenet attempt to appoint chief officers which collapsed because they cannot agree if the Garda Senior Officers course is accepetable as a qualification

    There’s a strong argument that devolution will lead to stagnation – as it has in education and many other araes. The very fact that they consider David Ford as Justice Minister because they cant agree speaks volumes about what we are in for

    “Sixth, this is an extremely difficult issue for Unionism and if this is resolved then other mattters, which have been held up by this one, will be easier to resolve.”

    Ah, another shopping list then? Or were thsoe items just held up as bargaining counters?

    “Seventh, we wont have to listen to you, the UUP and the SDLP etc jibber-jabbering about politburos in unconcealed excitement that the whole Stormo edifice might collapse around us.”

    The state of Stormont is not a reality and not just conditioned by this.

    “Eighth, Irish people are good at this sort of thing and we should have even more cooperation between the 2 police forces on the island.”

    Utter bollox

    “Ninth, it will draw the Alliance party into the Stormo tent and be reward for their generally positive contribution ot Norn Iron affairs.”

    I’m sorry. This smacks of desparation to get to no 10.

    “Tenth, it will be an encouragement to investors that Norn iron is settled and sensible enough to take on the power it was agreed that it should have.”

    Only if there is real progress and is effective. Not if it becomes another cess pit of recriminations.

    The problem is that on both sides we have decommissioned the weapons but not the attitudes.

  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    igor,

    the list of Republican issues is fair one and I would also add the Quinn killing in South Armagh and the poor SF response – so perhaps we should go easy on the DUP. Well fair enough – I think Robbo has done extremely well to navigate the “never in a political liftime” election slogan and the No-Nay-Never-TUV (to the tune of the Wild Rover)and Unionist guard-dog Deputy Dodsy – the dog that barked but forgot to bite.

    But the substantive issue remains that those who argue against implementation cannot argue (logically) that Stormo is not working when Police clearly is the large Orange elephant parading on the Garvaghey Road and blocking the political traffic.

    Most of the rest of the points (investment, the Alliance party, other issues getting solved) are fairly uncontentiouns common sense but on the (crucial)issue of Irish people running Irish affairs – Irish Nationalism/Republicanism want minimal British interfernce in Irish matters and the transfer of Police and Justice reduces that involvement nominally and in practice in a very important area and we should expect as a result to see greater cooperation between police North and South and further isolation of the dissers. (This is also the opinion of the SOS and the recently retired head of the PSNI)

    So I take it you will be disappointed if the DUP cut a deal before the election?

  • William Hueston

    I’m no Unionist naysayer…I stupidly voted for the GFA, as I thought Sinn Fein/IRA would for once be honest and honour their committments to the act.

    However, what we got were a bunch of scoundrels, who unable to kill their way to a united Ireland, thought with a weak Labour regime, they could blackmail and blugeon their way.

    Of course, Sinn Fein have a mandate…to be in Parliament…they have no mandate to be in Government….it is only the contrived enforced coalition that has them there.

    As Igor points out at #16 and I make no apology for repeating, here are a list of items that in a real democracy should render Sinn Fein/IRA unfit to be in Government….even the corrupted form we are forced to endure here:

    Along the way we also had a few small things that delayed implementation including:-

    * delays in decommissioning by PIRA
    * delays in SF endorsement of PSNI
    * political foot dragging by SF as they sought to drag parts of the movement with them
    * the Northern Bank Robbery
    * the Stormont PIRA Spy Ring
    * the Castlereagh burglary
    * the McCartney Murder and Cover Up
    * the Quinn Murder and Cover Up
    * the time taken to break SF and PIRAs links with organised crime
    * the gravely misjudged ‘they haven’t gone away’ boast

    and I add some further items of my own:

    * the street demonstrations and activities in agitation such as in Rasharkin
    * their links to ETA [in Spain] and to Arab terrorists
    * their links to Colombia and the activities of senior members in harbouring escaped criminals e.g. Ruane and the 3 terrorists convicted in Colombia
    * failure to recognise the name of the country and use of threatening terminology by their elected representatives and other ‘activists’.

    Only true constitutional parties should be in Government…those who wish to work for the benefit of the country, not terrorists on sabbatical, hoping to acheive their misguided aims through corrupting the process by being given jobs within the current structures.

  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    Archie P,

    The State to which you give your allegiance has force-fed you all the things you dont want and think are wrong* – at what point do Unionists like yourself beging to question your loyalty to that State that betrays you at every turn? Surely, the real Lundies are not the UUP or the DUP jockeying and warring with themselves to get the best deal for Ulster (and sometimes themselves) but the Englezes who they have to deal with.

    *Deputy Dodsy, Robbo and the very Rev Ian have all admitted they have been coerced by the Englezes into cutting a deal and staying with it.

  • Laughing (Tory) Unionist

    Slabbery, no matter how slowly you speak, you keep mumbling past that bit where you slabbered us all to death in 2007. When you assured us that P&J would be transferred no later than 2008. otherwise Sinn Five would huff and puff and ‘pull the institutions down’. No matter how many times you ignore your own past fibs, or for that matter, intone the same old BS (or even fabulous new spacerisms like that horsewaste about the Alliance!), the process proceeds exactly as per the pace the Punt dictates. Suck it up. Murderous McMarty has.

  • danielmoran

    belfast gonzo…. msg 8
    this could be robbo laying the ground for finally honouring whatever deal was done to end boycott of executive. surely, adams would have got everything nailed down this time? on the other hand robbo might be caught yet again in the TUV headlights, and stalling for more time. well, at least the shinners needn’t worry about the stoops coming up on the rails, now mcdonnell is already in charge there.

  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    Dan,

    re. stalling for more time.

    Surely Robbo wants to get this through asap if he is going to do it at all as a ‘live’ issue like this would be far worse for him and far better for the TUV going into an election.

    As long as Marty doesnt start flying the tricolour over the courthouses Robbo will soon start talking of Stormo achivements and we can all move on – except perhaps the UUP who will be very, very disappointed to no one listened to their “it cant work” sloganising.

  • fin

    would I be right in thinking that there is quite a different set of emotions on display here from either.

    I detect a certain amount of relief and a little apprehension from nationalists, while to be frank I think Arch, LTU, etc are just in need of a big hug.

  • Laughing (Tory) Unionist

    You should probably give them some tips on empty sloganising: you know, where exactly all that jibber-jabber of yours about the Bawbybowl, or P&J being transferred, or Sinn Five walking out of the executive and ‘pulling the institutions down’, or the TUV not going to get any votes in the Euros, or spacer etc, got you. Well, it got you laughed at. Out of non-interest, Slabbery, me ould mucker, is there a lie you won’t tell?

  • Laughing (Tory) unionist

    Poor ould Fin, another one who seriously thinks P&J being transferred as and when the Punt dictates is a problem for Unionists! If we’re upset by that, one wonders how bummed the spacers like Slabbery up there are by the fact that not merely will it be transferred according to the DUP’s whims, it’s being transferred with a veto – an exercised veto – on any Republican holding it? Something, natch, Slabbery, and to be fair to him, McMurderous too, swore blind wouldn’t, nay, couldn’t happen. Ho, ho, ho. (And really, if the Provettes here haven’t learnt anything from the way Sinn Five was stiched up over the Bawbybowl, it’s jolly heartening to think quite how dense Republicans of the Future are therefore going to be, even the ones not yet on the Thames House payroll . . .)

  • igor

    Sammy

    No, I want to see it devolved and think it should have been years ago. My concern is the over selling of this and the claims that this will be a victory for SF – it should be a victory for everyone but the practical impact will be low.

    The Chief Constable will be operationally independent but accountable to the Policing Board. The intelligence will be controlled by MI5 as usual. Court appeals will ultimately end up in London, the Courts will defend to the bitter end their reliance on quill pens and the Bar and Law Society will want to maximise opportunities to continue to milk legal aid.

    The MoJ as planned will be a neutered pussy cat kept in cage by both sides.

    None of this augers well for devolved justice

  • fin

    Would you like that hug now LTU

  • Laughing (Tory) Unionist

    Hell, anytime between now and the end of partition works for me. That’ll give you plenty of time. Keep busy. Stay lucky, etc.

  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    igor,

    The symbolic importance of the tansfer will be considerable for Nationlaism and Republicanism so there will inevitably be some reference to it as a SF ‘achievement’ if not by SF then certainly by Jimbo(TUV).

    If the transfer is in place then surely it is both the interest of SF and the DUP (perhaps for the first time) to actually get other things moving to head off the naysayers of the TUV and UUP* and the jibber-jabbers on the sidelines like the SDLP and P.Baker.

    Win, win.

    *If Robbo asks Wee Reggie for agreement and the Wee Fecker says NO – then the Tories will either knock him into line or they will be a party to knocking down the very thing they helped created.

  • fin

    LTU – its a date ; )

    Sammy, devolution is been pushed by Brown, if Reggie says no it reflects on Cameron, the arguement moves from Stormont to London. Personally I don’t think Davey has the wits to debate this one in the Commons, so I think Reggie will stay out of it.

  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    fin,

    Robbo will certainly get the UUP to publically sign up (which will be uncomfortable for poor Wee Reggie and will be highly enjoyable) and he will presumably have been instructed in advance by PoshBoyDC to say Yes.

  • Laughing 9Tory) Unionist

    You spacers can keep on self-pleasuring, but bores like me are quite happy to quote back at you your previous, sustained exercises in fantasy, all lovingly detailed here on Slugger (go on, dare me to …). Like ould Slabbery up there, who told us that P&J would be transferred no later than 2008, otherwise, ludicrously, Thames House’s very own Sinn Five would ‘walk out of the executive’ and, somehow thereby ‘pull the institutions down’. There’s a reason why Slabbery keeps wordlessly running away from Grade A jibber-jabber like that, despite the damage doing so does to any fanciful notion of personal credibility. Because what alternative does he have? wearing the placard round his neck which says, ‘I make stuff up coz’ I’m a Loon/goon/poltroon’? Far, far better just to keep on lyin’. But then there’s the Republican Movement all the way to its pyschotic head: remember all that guff from McMurderous himself, and the rest of them, slavvering away that Republicans wouldn’t accept even for one moment a Unionist veto on Republican eligibility to hold the P&J post? Nah? Plopped into the deep, deep green of the memory hole? Golly. Yet here’s the thing, we Unionists remember, and we’re *still* laughing about it. If anything, we’re laughing even harder at the sheep-like conformity of SF’s ‘supporters’ that they never have the nerve to go to McMurderous and say, ‘er, but wait a minute: you said the very thing you’ve just agreed to accept was the very thing you would never accept’. Now unless Jonathan Powell wants to write out his cue-cards for him, what’s the poor ould deppity to do? Mutter under his breath, ‘if you think that was turning turtle, let me tell you about some other things I’ve, uh, changed my mind about’? Nah, better for him too to just keep at it, telling his own, understandly frightened supporters, ‘black is white’ – after all, the alternative for him is rather more deadly than it is for spacers like Slabbery.

    So here, as usual, we are in fantasyland – if Republicans really want to kid yourselves that the position Unionists have always supported – ‘transfer when the time is right’ (ie ‘for us’, when *we* say so’) – is actually some sort of ‘triumph’ for pauvre Sinn Five, go right ahead. But remember, you’re kidding only yourselves, and in the case of McMurderous, not even then. He knows which side his bread’s buttered on. Sensible fellow. He’s go far. Well, as far as his box allows.

  • igor

    “The symbolic importance of the tansfer will be considerable for Nationlaism and Republicanism”

    …..not so much devolution as delusion

  • Itwas SammyMcNally whatdoneit

    igor,

    good line.

    If it has to minimised by Unionists* to get it through – then so be it – these are difficult times for Irish Unionists and we good guys can afford to be generous.

    *Somebody needs to have a word with Jimbo in the TUV.

  • Rory Carr

    KieranJ,

    I am afraid you are still wearing your rose-tinted spectacles when viewing the Long Fellow’s legacy. Dev certainly collected millions of dollars during his convenient US sojourn but unfortunately they were not applied by him “for Ireland”. He instead kept a very tight grip on them himself despite repeated requests from his comrades to loosen the purse strings for much needed materiel and other necessities. But he never came across and eventually used much of the funds to establish the Irish Press newspaper which was maintained thereafter as a DeValera family fiefdom.

    Sorry to burst your bubble, Kieran, but it really is better that you younguns get to know the truth of things so that you don’t continue to run around making fools out of yourselves.

  • Laughing (Tory) Unionist

    Gawd knows Slabbery, you spoofing guys can certainly afford to b*llsh*t. Well, to be more precise, you can’t afford to do anything else.

    And Mart, keep on stooping down lowly – the view’s lovely. It is from up here at any rate.

  • Comrade Stalin

    William,

    I’m no Unionist naysayer…I stupidly voted for the GFA, as I thought Sinn Fein/IRA would for once be honest and honour their committments to the act.

    I love the smell of pure bullshit in the morning.

    As Igor points out at #16 and I make no apology for repeating, here are a list of items that in a real democracy should render Sinn Fein/IRA unfit to be in Government….even the corrupted form we are forced to endure here:

    I was wondering, William. Do you think the UUP (UWC Strike, Drumcree 96, merger with the PUP, association with the Loyalist Commission) are fit to be in government ?

    Do you think the DUP (Third Force, Ulster Resistance, Clontibret, etc) are fit to be in government ?

    igor:

    There are plenty of good reasons to devolve policing and justice powers. It’s not all about “control over the police”. It’s not strictly true that the Police Board has sole authority over the PSNI. The Board holds the force to account but is not its political figurehead. The justice minister will be able to provide impetus and direct reform.

    I think a lot of republicans will be disappointed. The justice minister will have authority over the Chief Constable but will not be able to direct him on operational matters. I think a lot of Sinn Feiners are under the impression that anti social problems and crime will go away when the justice minister orders the PSNI to do it. It doesn’t work that way, and indeed cannot. Political direction of the police was one of the core problems with the old Stormont regime. We can’t return to that.

    The police have problems that need to be sorted out. Adaptation of modern technology is one area where they fall short, and there are far too many police officers doing work that could be done by a civilian. But there are other areas outside of this. Like the stupendously long time it takes for cases to get through the courts system. Or the ineffectiveness of the prison system and rehabilitation – we have the worst rate of reoffending in the UK. There are about fifty different quangos and organizations associated with the justice system under the NIO. These need to be streamlined and modernized. There is a great deal of work for the justice minister to do.

  • danielmoran

    itwasSammy….. you could be right about robbo’s intentions. after that, it’s a question of whether the dirty dozen will let him get it out of the way. there may be trouble ahead for peter the punt.

  • Laughing (Tory) Unionist

    Yeah, it’s all turning out disastrously for the Punt. What with it all, er, proceeding as per his dictate, and that alone. What a *dreadful* position to be in . . .

  • danielmoran

    laughing tory… msg 14
    Marty mcG seemed to be sending a coded warning to robinson to stop dithering, why else did he raise the stakes so publicly on radio ulcer this morning? he said he EXPECTED this issue would be sorted in the U.S today. how could he avoid losing face if robbo ignores him. I think another suspension [at least]of the executive is imminent, unless robinson doesn’t rein in the dirty dozen, who are warning him behind the scenes about P&j settlement.

  • danielmoran

    that should read ”IF robinson doesn’t rein in…’

  • Laughing (Tory) Unionist

    How can McMurderous avoid ‘losing face’? With whom? He has no face with Unionists other than as dead-eyed sectarian butcher; he frightens the Catholic middle class, and with good reason; and his own supporters are such sheep that they leat obediently whatever volte face he performs cf. his absolute refusal to countence even the *suggestion* of a DUP veto on a Repulican being able to hold P&J. Still, for as long as he does Thames House’s work for them, by gulling the gullible, hoorah. I just never fail to be amazed at quite how many gullible Republicans there are. Still, one man’s pointed observation is another fellow’s, well, stake-knife . . .

  • danielmoran

    i’m NOT a sinn fein voter or republican LTU. as a matter of fact, the provo campaign had, for me, NO relevance to the situation in the north since ’68. the last thing marty and gerry wanted in 1970, was civil rights reforms for catholics, since that would make n.i. more normal for them, while they [marty and gerry simply wanted it done away with. irish history will judge those two very harshly.

  • Laughing (Tory) Unionist

    With respect, I didn’t say *you* were a Republican. I would hope you’re one of that plentiful crowd – someone indifferent to, or opposed to the Union, who doesn’t feel the need to support sectarian murder – and I applaud you for it. Quite why this large element in the political community have connived at their own needless sidelining is one of the grosser failings of John Hume’s leadership (though that also, inter alia, reflects poorly on the persistent huckterism of the Alliance, cf. redesignation, and now, willingness to grub up the P&J portfolio prferred them by the Punt and his little curly-haired helper). I’m enough of a Marxist to think that Sinn Five will implode due to their internal contradicitions, and that northern nationalism, an entirely legitimate political aspiration, is once more represented by non-murdering, non-criminal, non-MI5 stooges.

    But to try and answer your perfectly reasonable question again – ‘how could [McMurderous] avoid losing face if robbo ignores him’ – do you not now, with Pete’s addendum, see how my initial response applies, and if anything,w ith even more salience? As you noted, McMurderous *did* try it on, and yet again, all he got from the Punt was a dusty, “back in your box, son”. And the consequences for McMurderous of this latest self-inflicted humiliation? Nothing. Yet.

  • danielmoran

    YES LTU, i’m happy to acknowledge the salience of your point. the fact that these parties are being paid by the very people whose intellihgence they’re insulting is the most depressing thing.
    i’ll leave that with you.