How was your Eleventh Night..?

THE weather is a bit calmer now than it was earlier tonight, when I expect the Eleventh Night bonfires were lit. If you survived the driving rain and wind at any of the bonfires – or new beacons – how did the event go? Was there anything new this year of note? More or less overt sectarianism?

Meanwhile, Orange Grand Master Robert Saulters has told the BBC he has no problem with Portadown Orangemen talking to Garvaghy Road residents about the disputed Drumcree parade. And after meeting both Garvaghy residents and Drumcree Orangemen, DUP leader and First Minister Peter Robinson is optimistic that the two opposing groups will get together and hammer out a solution. I hope it’s more than wishful thinking, but it’s a more positive approach than the tension-raising methods chosen by some in recent days on both sides of the divide.
(Pic of the Pitt Park bonfire, east Belfast, by Moochin Photoman.)

  • Jim Conway

    Garvaghy Road. No Surrender!

  • the future;s bright, the future’s orange

    Oh, I thought the bonfires were being lit tonight at 12? Did I miss all the crack? (I mean craic!)

  • Ulsters my homeland

    You’re a day early Gonzo

  • Big Maggie

    “You’re a day early Gonzo”

    That’s OK. The bonfires are several centuries late.

  • Ulsters my homeland

    There’s no point being a miserable oul woman all your life Maggie. Sure why don’t you throw on a pair of your thickest stockings and come out to the bonfire and have a laugh.

  • joecanuck

    If Gonzo is a day early, how come the Fire Service attended 80 incidents at large piles of rubbish tonight?

  • slug

    Happy 12th folks!

  • dunreavynomore

    Would somebody explain to an ignorant republican the symbolism of the Orange arch? The skull and crossbones, for example, what does that mean; likewise with a sailing ship, jacob’s ladder and so on. Genuinely interested in knowing what they symbolise.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Those who support these bonfires should be thankful that the chuckies could make life a lot harder for them if they wanted to. Lighting fires and burning rubbish in the street is illegal, and if someone decided to take legal action over this they could start to get very expensive indeed.

  • Glensman

    I can’t understand why the Garvaghy rd residents would want to enter dialogue from such a position of strength? Surely you would just refuse to have the march for another 10 years or so until people stopped asking/caring??

  • Ulsters my homeland

    “[i]If Gonzo is a day early, how come the Fire Service attended 80 incidents at large piles of rubbish tonight?”[/i]

    Mostly in Belfast though. Throughout the country they usually wait till midnight tonight.

  • Dunreavynomore, Masonic iconography would have been familiar to both the founders of the Orange Order and the United Irishmen so they may well both have borrowed from it.

  • Yokel

    Looking at the greater Shankill area it appears most had their bonfires last night but theres a thumping big one on Lanark Way that i drove past this morning that remains unlit.

    They look to have a picked a better day for it.

  • Gréagoir O Frainclín

    “Mostly in Belfast though. Throughout the country they usually wait till midnight tonight.”

    And I should think so UMH, after all the ‘Lord’s Day’ aka the Sabbath, should be respected by all good fundamentalist Protestant Christian folk.

    If not the case, sure then what’s the point of being a Christian.

  • Gréagoir O Frainclín

    “Would somebody explain to an ignorant republican the symbolism of the Orange arch? The skull and crossbones, for example, what does that mean; likewise with a sailing ship, jacob’s ladder and so on. Genuinely interested in knowing what they symbolise.”

    The skull and crossbones = Pirates

    a sailing ship = Pirates

    jacob’s ladder = the union of firemen, window cleaners, peeping tom’s, burglars and….. Pirates

  • Gréagoir O Frainclín

    UMH, a quick question…but do you feel uneasy that the IRISH Tri-Colour, as some Unionists but not all say, a flag of a ‘foreign country’ has been flying majestically high and proudly in predominantly British Loyalist/Unionists areas of Northern IRELAND for the past few days.
    Loyalists are no-doubt in a way accustoming themselves to the flag.

    But just look at that huge IRISH Tri-Colour in the photo above as it dwarves it’s loyalist surroundings below.

    Ironically the KKK in the USA burn crosses as a sign of the cross of Cristianity’s purification ….and ironically, no doubt the same applies for the IRISH Tri-Colour’s Nationalist purity to the British loyalists in Ireland. A secret but public reverence!

  • Yokel

    16. Yeah we love watching it up there for a mere day, then burning to ashes.

  • RepublicanStones

    UMH just wondering if you had any thoughts on the bonfire (tigers bay..I think, could be wrong) which has a big sign saying ‘Trick or Treat’ on it.

  • Belfast Gonzo

    UMH

    Didn’t know that the bonfires were unco-ordinated this year because of the 12th falling on the Sunday. I posted the entry because I could hear the fire engines and sound of fireworks or firecrackers (at least I assume it wasn’t firearms!) from the Shankill last night. I usually post about Belfast – the clue is in the name – but it looks like the rural boys were wise by waiting a night; last night’s weather in the city was truly horrible.

    Perhaps you can give us an account of your own bonfire later? :o)

  • Ulsters my homeland

    Gonzo, the uncoordinated lighting of the fires happen every time the twelfth falls on a Sunday, but usually the fires in the rural parts keep there’s till the morning of the parade.

    Regards my local fire, its horded with republican flags and election posters.

  • LURIG

    The Twelfth is dying on it’s arse and has been for several years. Drumcree was the ultimate defeat of Orangeism on this island and it deserves to fade away in shame and disgrace for the death, hatred, bitterness and violence it has bestowed on many of us. Despite Peter Robinson’s talks there will NEVER be another Garvaghy Road Loyalist parade and the two governments & Sinn Fein know that. To force a parade down there again and relive the sight of Catholics being beaten off the road to force it through are circumstances London & Dublin know could totally destabilise peace. Most decent sensible Prods aren’t about, they are away in their Donegal holiday homes, at relations in Scotland & England or in sunnier climes. I know as I work with many of them and they are embarrassed by the Twelfth, they really are. It’s the remnants of drunken uneducated inner city Uncle Andy’s, hagbag Orange Lilys and oul country bigots who keep it ticking over but they will die off in time too. Orangefest? Orange infestation more like it and these bigoted hateful cockroaches should be stamped out for good.

  • Ulsters my homeland

    Ah you’re wrong about the Twelfth dying off Lurig boy. There might me an element of middle-class Protestants who are embarressed but it basically because they’re gullible to propaganda and they want to loved, they’re the networking yuppy types. Once the propaganda changes and the real bigots are shown up (Nationalists and Republicans) they’ll be back watching the parades.

  • LURIG

    Yeh, those who think that Orangeism will make a comeback will end up in the same padded cells as the ‘Moon is made of cheese’ and ‘The world is flat’ club. It’s not progoganda, it’s ordinary people thinking for themselves and deciding that they want NO part of this KU KLUX KLAN hatefest. NEVER again will the two governments be held to ransom by a crowd of monosyllabic, dozy, fat, tattoed corner boys masquerading as a Christian organistaion. They are the complete antithasis of Christianity and more Satanic in their make up with the evil, sinister badness that it is their total being.

  • Joe

    Ah yes the middle class prods are all brainwashed, and its all the nationalists fault for being on your land before you got here. Who the hell is this clown?

  • Drumlins Rock

    Guys have been to over a dozen parades this year, and will be at a few more, and have seen more hatred in this one thread than in a decade of parades, Lurig in particular is spitting so much veninous boggoted hatered his wee head must be hurting, coll the head Mr. and come out for our wee dander in the country tomorrow, if you find anything thats even remotely as offensive as your post 23 I will treat you to a meal for two in a nice restaurant.

  • Ulsters my homeland

    “It’s not progoganda, it’s ordinary people thinking for themselves and deciding that they want NO part of this KU KLUX KLAN hatefest. NEVER again will the two governments be held to ransom by a crowd of monosyllabic, dozy, fat, tattoed corner boys”

    You’ve just described the resident groups down to a tee. They’re the ones who are intollerant bigots who hate everything Protestant, Unionist and Loyalist. Even the thought of a 2 minute parade passing beside their estate makes them foam at the mouth.

    RRB – Republican Resident Bigots

  • Big Maggie

    UMH,

    “There’s no point being a miserable oul woman all your life Maggie. Sure why don’t you throw on a pair of your thickest stockings and come out to the bonfire and have a laugh.”

    Why don’t I? Probably because I have a life, and my notion of what constitutes culture and a good night out may differ from that of lager-and-Buckfast-swilling spides and millies :^)

    Oh, and I respect the environment too.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Ah you’re wrong about the Twelfth dying off Lurig boy.

    I think he’s right. The 12th makes a mockery of the term “law abiding unionists”. The only part which is legal (and which I actually have little problem with) is the marching. The rest – the onstreet drinking, burning of refuse, flags and election posters on bonfires – is all of it illegal and anti-social. Like I said on another thread, the republicans, if they were minded, could deal a serious blow to this celebration of “culture” by taking legal action to force councils and the government departments and the Housing Executive to stop tolerating illegal conduct on their property.

    There might me an element of middle-class Protestants who are embarressed but it basically because they’re gullible to propaganda and they want to loved, they’re the networking yuppy types. Once the propaganda changes and the real bigots are shown up (Nationalists and Republicans) they’ll be back watching the parades.

    Real bigots ? When’s the last time you saw news footage of the chuckies burning a single Union Jack ? Burning somebody else’s national flag isn’t a crime, but it’s a hateful, xenophobic act, especially given the recent efforts by the Irish Republic to try to properly accomodate unionist culture.

  • Ulsters my homeland

    Good girl Maggie, don’t let them lager swilling spides lure you onto the demon drink, be a good girl now and hug a tree for mother earth. 😀

  • Comrade Stalin

    UMH:

    You’ve just described the resident groups down to a tee. They’re the ones who are intollerant bigots who hate everything Protestant, Unionist and Loyalist. Even the thought of a 2 minute parade passing beside their estate makes them foam at the mouth.

    So if/when the republicans want to do a two minute parade down the Shankill, you’ll be the first guy up defending it and calling for their right to parade to be respected. Yes ?

  • Ulsters my homeland

    Comrade Stalin

    “[i]The rest – the onstreet drinking,”[/i]

    Hmmmm, are you ever out on the weekends? I suppose the onstreet drinking and drunkeness is the 12th fault too?

    “[i]burning of refuse,”[/i]

    Some fires are legal.

    “[i]flags and election posters on bonfires”[/i]

    Is that illegal on a legal bonfire? Oh wait, you already answered that ‘Burning somebody else’s national flag isn’t a crime’

    What wwas you point again?

  • Ulsters my homeland

    “[i]So if/when the republicans want to do a two minute parade down the Shankill, you’ll be the first guy up defending it and calling for their right to parade to be respected. Yes ? “[/i]

    If its part of their tradition, YES. UMH shoots and scores!

  • ilovethistimeofyear …yeehaa

    cs.

    Hmmm… ” So if/when the republicans want to do a two minute parade down the Shankill, you’ll be the first guy up defending it and calling for their right to parade to be respected. Yes ? ”

    well its hardly a traditional route is it,sounds more like a bit of traditional catholic shit stirring to me. no suprise there though at this time of year.

  • Ulsters my homeland

    Hmmm actually come to think of it NO, you Stalinist freak because this is Ulster, this is the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northen Ireland. Therefore, provocative marches by non-nationals, ie republicans should not be allowed the same freedoms as those carried out by loyal subjects on the Queen’s Highway

    He shoots, he scores yet again! 🙂

  • ilovethistimeofyear …yeehaa

    Just wondering how on earth does that lurid fella manage’s to sleep at night when he must stay up to the wee small hours trying to be offended and outraged at this glorious time of year when the protestant people dress in their finest and stamp their boots across this great city and beyond .
    Why doesnt he just feck off to donegal like the rest of the rabid hun hating scum do at this time of year.

  • Ulsters my homeland

    Gonzo, I didn’t write post 9. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    The Republicans are frothing at the mouth tonight when they have to use my nickname. Expose the Republican Fascists.

  • [i]Why doesnt he just feck off to donegal like the rest of the rabid hun hating scum do at this time of year. [/i]

    Probably because it booked out months ago, with unionists and nationalists alike.

  • Comrade Stalin

    “The rest – the onstreet drinking,”

    Hmmmm, are you ever out on the weekends? I suppose the onstreet drinking and drunkeness is the 12th fault too?

    No, but I don’t expect it from a tradition which tries to claim that it has law and order at its core. And don’t some of those various denominations have temperance too ? Seems like certain traditional religious beliefs can be set aside from time to time.

    “burning of refuse,”

    Some fires are legal.

    Which ones, and under what rules are they allowed to bypass the law on burning refuse ? I’m not allowed to burn wood in the grate of my fire in my own house. How can it be legal to do it in the street ?

    “flags and election posters on bonfires”

    Is that illegal on a legal bonfire?

    Election posters are the property of the candidates who erect them, and their removal constitutes theft, damaging them constitutes vandalism. Jim Allister successfully had someone arrested for it recently. There was a press release on his website. And it could well be a hate crime too.

    Oh wait, you already answered that ‘Burning somebody else’s national flag isn’t a crime’

    It isn’t a crime, but it’s not civilized at all, which would be equally true if we were talking about people burning union jacks.

    What wwas you point again?

    That bonfires are mostly illegal, and the parts that aren’t illegal are uncivilized and wrong. The fire brigade were out last night dowsing people’s houses in water. That can’t be right. I’m sure you’ll justify it though.

    My other point was that the statement “law abiding unionists” is an oxymoron. Unionists and loyalists regard the law as a tool to get what they want, and to set to one side when it doesn’t suit them to do so. If unionists were law-abiding, they would be campaigning to get these bonfires either legalized, or stopped.

    If its part of their tradition, YES. UMH shoots and scores!

    So you concede that the marching dispute is about much more than a two minute parade. Yes ?

    iltoy:

    well its hardly a traditional route is it,sounds more like a bit of traditional catholic shit stirring to me.

    Traditional Catholic shit stirring ? We’re not bigoted about other people’s religions, are we ? The march I described was purely hypothetical. Reasonable, civilized people are indeed aware that it’s not normal behaviour to cause offence to people. I wouldn’t call the republicans reasonable or civilized at all times, but at least they don’t make a point of rubbing people’s faces in it once a year part of their “tradition”.

  • Comrade Stalin

    The Republicans are frothing at the mouth tonight when they have to use my nickname. Expose the Republican Fascists.

    I don’t condone the dork who took your nickname, but you’ve some cheek calling people fascists. Your idea of rights are those which are carefully defined in such a way that anything that people do in the name of the unionist tradition can be justified. You wouldn’t be allowed to get away with it outside NI.

  • ilovethistimeofyear …yeehaa

    EH???

    “Probably because it booked out months ago, with unionists and nationalists alike. ”

    not too many prods perhaps, think of the reception they would get from the hun hating,celtic top wearing supposedly shared future looking catholic’s that infest that place over the 12th.

  • [I]not too many prods perhaps, think of the reception they would get from the hun hating,celtic top wearing supposedly shared future looking catholic’s that infest that place over the 12th. [/I]

    “Infest”?! Oh dear, the dehumanisation process continues unabated by certain “unionists”. You’ve obviously never been to Donegal at this time of year. Nor have you ever visited towns and villages like Milford or St. Johnstone. Travel broadens the mind, little man.

  • Ulsters my homeland

    Comrade Stalin

    “[i]No, but I don’t expect it from a tradition which tries to claim that it has law and order at its core.”[/i]

    So that means what exactly? You want the police to do more, or you want the Order to act as policemen? Please tell?

    “[i]I’m not allowed to burn wood in the grate of my fire in my own house. How can it be legal to do it in the street ?”[/i]

    Where do you live Dublin?

    “[i]It isn’t a crime, but it’s not civilized at all, which would be equally true if we were talking about people burning union jacks.”[/i]

    It was hardly civilised for the Irish state to lay claim on N.Ireland for 80 years, sure we can give some leniency to local communities who had to live under that claim all their life?

    “[i]The fire brigade were out last night dowsing people’s houses in water. That can’t be right. I’m sure you’ll justify it though.”[/i]

    don’t be silly, I don’t justify it at all. The council should allocate an appropriate site for such a bonfire.

    “[i]Traditional Catholic shit stirring ? We’re not bigoted about other people’s religions, are we ?”[/i]

    The ordinary Catholic isn’t shit-stirring, its the Republican element that has done it for 40 years. Catholics used to attend dances in Orange halls 40 years ago, but a divisive and sectarian element within the Catholic community started to demonise the Orange Order.

  • Ulsters my homeland

    Comrade Stalin

    “[i]You wouldn’t be allowed to get away with it outside NI.”[/i]

    Get away with what?

  • dunreavynomore

    Very strange, I asked a simple question about the symbolism behind Orange arch decorations such as the skull and cross bones amongst others fully expecting that some Orange order member would explain but no, nobody did.
    Ah well, I may just read the normal abusive stuff and forget about trying to learn anything about Orangeism.

  • LURIG

    Just to enlighten a few of you more agitated posters. I did not wake up one morning and decide to hate the Orange Order/Protestants/Unionists. If some of you actually read my posts you would know that I have worked, played sport and socialised with the most decent Protestant people you could ever hope to meet. I have however grew up in North Belfast and know exactly what the Orange Order and the Twelfth are about so don’t patronise me or tell me I don’t know, I do and every rotten bit of it. As a kid I witnessed my family and neighbours being made prisoners in our homes and districts when the Army put up screens and hemmed us in as Orange parades were pushed through North Belfast by a sectarian RUC force as they pointed their guns at us. My father and neighbours would point out well known Loyalist paramilitaries who were walking as members of the Orange Order past our homes. We seen the police laugh joke and banter with the Orange Order and Loyalists as they spat venom at us. Every 12th our homes were attacked with paint & petrol bombs in the run up by the UDA & UVF who then stood in conference with DUP & UUP politicians and laughed when the cops turned up. Usually the police would turn on us as Loyalists & Unionists colluded behinded police lines. Furthermore for those who think I have a closed mind. I took my uncle from Australia into Belfast city centre 4 years ago on the morning of the Twelfth as he wanted to witness it himself. We spent half an hour in Bedford Street before the drunken louts and pools of vomit put us off. Many of the bands openly and proudly flaunted their allegiance to either the UDA or UVF as Orangemen marched in rank behind them. Then a Lodge with a banner named after a dead Loyalist terrorist walked up Bedford Street. So those of you who are pointing the finger at me should realise I know EXACTLY what I am talking about as I have lived and breathed the Twelfth for decades. I would however make the distinction between the ‘Loyal Orders’, the Twelfth AND the Protestant/Unionist community many of who are very decent people. A lot of them hate the bigotry and fear that surrounds this time of the year too; I know as some of them keep telling me.

  • Ulsters my homeland

    dunreavynomore

    ‘Gragoir O Fraincln’ is a piss artist, that’s all he does here, takes the piss.

    I’m not an Orangeman, but my Uncle told me the skull and cross bones symbolises death, that’s why you would see it on alot of old grave stones. I don’t know what the arch symbolised, but there’s got to be something deep to it. Jacob’s ladder is probably self-explanitory, ie- biblical. The ship? I’m not sure what that is

  • Driftwood

    Posted by LURIG on Jul 12, 2009 @ 04:36 PM

    Pretty much true as far as most people I know, and if it wasn’t for the strength of the euro, I’d be in Donegal or Malaga. probably the latter given the weather.

    Posted by LURIG on Jul 12, 2009 @ 04:57 PM

    errr…..

  • Ulsters my homeland

    Ah LURIG is back, and with the usual shit,

    “I have however grew up in North Belfast and know exactly what the Orange Order and the Twelfth are about so don’t patronise me or tell me I don’t know, I do and every rotten bit of it.”

    there we have the ‘intollerant’ view of LURIG. LOL

  • Ulsters my homeland

    Lurig, what’s so bad about an Orange parade passing by your house for a few minutes?

  • Ulsters my homeland

    “[i]We seen the police laugh joke and banter with the Orange Order and Loyalists as they spat venom at us.”[/i]

    Was it proper viper venom?

  • Ulsters my homeland

    “[i]Usually the police would turn on us as Loyalists & Unionists colluded behinded police lines. “[/i]

    Usually? was this a coordinated collusion?, or a ‘usual’ collusion?

  • fair_deal

    Dunreavy

    Some are symbols for Orange, Royal Arch or Black degrees for the explanation you have to join 😉 Hint have a search in the bible (King James Version of course.)

    The sailing ship is probably the mountjoy breaking the boom.

  • Ulsters my homeland

    “[i]I would however make the distinction between the ‘Loyal Orders’, the Twelfth AND the Protestant/Unionist community many of who are very decent people. A lot of them hate the bigotry and fear that surrounds this time of the year too; I know as some of them keep telling me.”[/i]

    They didn’t hate the fear and bigotry until Republicans created it. After the failed border campaign Republicans started to demonise Protestant organisations like the Orange Order.

  • dunreavynomore

    umh, fair_deal.

    Thanks for that, it does seem that the in dept knowledge is buried deep.
    Regarding the ‘boom’ I remember hearing some old song long,long ago which had a line ‘Clancy lowered the boom..’, and I wonder does that refer to the siege of Derry.

  • Ulsters my homeland

    I’m non the wiser dunreavynomore, but hey forget about that stuff and enjoy ourselves.

  • Big Maggie

    UMH,

    “Good girl Maggie, don’t let them lager swilling spides lure you onto the demon drink, be a good girl now and hug a tree for mother earth. 😀 ”

    Demon drink, you mean W*K*D? I’ll stick to the civilized grape, thanks.

    And no I don’t hug the trees growing on my land. Nor do I cut them down and burn their wood to just to annoy my neighbours. Like I said earlier, I have a life, unlike many Ulstermen.

  • Really

    Lurig

    You are right in one respect, in that i am an orangeman, but I don’t parade as most of my clients are catholics businesses. Now I *AM MOST DEFINITELY NOT* a bigot, I enjoy good relations with my catholic friends and clients. I personally joined the orange order to support the protestant cause, not to attack catholics.I would *NEVER* consider leaving the orange order just as i would never discriminate against a catholic on *any* grounds.

    “monosyllabic, dozy, fat, tattoed corner boys masquerading as a Christian organistaion”

    that is just stupid and ignorant, I am very highly qualified and experienced in my field, my 3 cars are probably worth more than your council house (see, I can sterotype too), and there are actually several milllionaires in My lodge, unfortunately Im not one of them.

    Thankfully most catholics I know are moderate, sensible people, you are just venomous.

  • Baggie

    Maggie

    “civilized grape”

    What sort of fucking retard are you ?

    Unless you are a wine connoisseur you make yourself sound incredibly fat.

    woof woof !!!!! its a fucking bowl of pedigree chum you want lol 😀

  • LURIG

    Really

    Believe me my views are quite moderate to what many Catholics think of the ‘Loyal Orders’ and the Twelfth. Your Catholic clients might be saying one thing to your face for diplomatic reasons but 99.99% of them despise and detest everything about this time of the year and the hateful divisive bigoted Orangefest. The Carlisle Circus drums on the Twelfth morning could be heard all over North Belfast and I still recall the looks of contempt on the faces of many older Catholics in the 70’s and 80’s. We kids didn’t fully grasp what it was about but Nationalist districts were virtually curfewed for the entire day. Then I recall entire areas being cordoned off as the Tour of the North was pushed through Catholic North Belfast. The Army didn’t really grasp it but the RUC loved it as they rubbed our noses in it and told us we needed to know our place. I distinctly remember one police officer saying that in the 70’s to a group of us kids. By the way would you EVER attend a service, of any kind, in a Catholic Church and would you disapprove if any of your children married a Catholic?

  • Drumlins Rock

    Lurig I cant speak for North Belfast I avoid the place usually, and sad to say I’m afraid alot of the things if they are true would disgust me and almost every Orangeman I know, it bears no resemblance at all the the Order I know and the parades I attend, how ever I deeply resent your continuous disgusting biggoted attacks on myself and my friends and family. As i said earlier come to our 12th a see if you can be offended,
    PS I have attend funerals in a RC church, as have most Orangemen I know, many of them quite senior, and as i’m not married yet I dont care what the ethnic or religious background my future wife may be from, so long as our current beliefs are compatable.

  • Really

    Some of my relations are married to catholics. I know catholics who *regulary* attend rural orange hall dances, hell I even shook the hand of a catholic from “south armagh” who *LOVES* blood and thunder flute bands (A friend introduced him at a band parade…Im not going into when and where to cover his ass too, but I swear on my mothers grave all I tell you is the truth) All I can say is what most commentators Ive read here say *rural* vs *belfast* orange parades are two different kettle of fish.

    When I think of it I do agree, I *do* rememeber seeing” orangemen” holding up 5 fingers on the ormeau road as they walked past sean *forget name – grahams ?* bookies, I was sick at the sight of that tbh, and im sure all TRUE orangemen will agree..

    as for your specific question

    “By the way would you EVER attend a service, of any kind, in a Catholic Church and would you disapprove if any of your children married a Catholic? ”

    Personally, and im sure I speak for alot of brethern I personally know, *YES* I have went to many a catholic funeral out of pure *RESPECT* for that person, and if any of my children wanted to marry a catholic I would have no problem with that *at all*, but i must say I would be a liar if i said i wasn’t concerned about a mixed marriage in this country.

  • Really

    Just reminiscing of my own times in a “blood and thunder” flute band when I was much younger in respect of your questions.

    Did we get “pissed” – bloody hell we did !!!!!!!!!

    Did we go out to attack catholics – No but we tried to chat up just as pissed girls 😀

    As we were from a nationalist area, I remember some of the younger “hot heads” started singing “party songs”, this was always quickly stamped upon as our bus driver was a catholic, and we always had a “whip round” after he took us home (wasn’t much £20 or so, but I always made a point of thanking him and throwing a couple of pounds into the band hat – and afaik this was the norm with all bands)

    As I live in a nationalist area, I clearly remember heading out in the clubs, and raucous bunches of lads in GAA tops singing IRA songs) so I guess dont tar everyone with the same brush.

    Its sounds bad what happened you, I had the same when i was a kid growing up as a protestant in a >80% nationalist town, Hell 2/3 times a year kids I didnt even know give me a kicking as *they* knew I was a prod. We had to take our uniforms off etc going “into the town”.

    So I didnt have exactly a “normal” childhood, But what I would say to you is rise above it, thats what I tried to do.

    prob typos, cba to check.

  • Driftwood

    LURIG
    Good to see you realise the Army ‘didn’t grasp it’. Why should they? The Army was-and is- non sectarian, many were Catholics. They acted as ‘piggy in the middle’ here for 40 years and got frig all thanks for their suffering. 5 County Down soldiers from 2 Rifles killed yesterday trying to restore democracy in Helmland. Again they don’t expect much thanks. It’s a thankless task they do.
    As for attending catholic, anglican, muslim church services etc, I go along knowing they’re all a load of nonsense. I recommend Sam Harris ‘Letter to a Christian Nation’ to you.

  • fair_deal
  • LURIG

    Drumlins & Really,

    For your information I have attended the Twelfth, 4 years ago in Belfast City Centre with an Aussie relative who wanted to see it. I went with an open mind and came back with this view. As a spectacle it’s very colourful and many of the bands are very good musically, including some of the blood and thunder bands. I accept that many Loyal Order members, especially rural ones, see their organisation as solely religious and in celebration of the Glorious Revolution AND William & Mary. However it’s the sectarian constitution and bigoted paramilitary baggage that undercuts everything that Orangemen hold dear. When one looks at the anarchy and violence that the Orange Order whipped up on the Springfield Road & Drumcree it’s difficult to have much sympathy or understanding for them. One could see Orange Order members wearing collarettes attacking the police and it’s difficult to see where the Christianity comes in. Furthermore the links between the Loyal Orders and paramilitaries is like the umbilical cord and the mother. The Orange Order has used Loyalists to do their dirty work and many UDA/UVF members are also Loyal Order members. Then we have banners lauding Loyalist terrorists and Lodges named after them. Many of the bands are affiliated to either the UDA or UVF as the names on the Lambegs testify. I also accept that many bands have no links and they are unfairly tainted but you reap what you sow. If you want to be taken seriously you have to decide if you are a religious, political or paramiltary organisation, your choice.

  • Drumlins Rock

    Lurig, when i comes to Drumcree yes i think we still have alot to be ashamed of over that period, Orangemen attacking the police is just wrong,
    as for UDA/UVF links in urban areas, I think many rural Orangemen (who are the vast majority of members now) genuinely have no idea it exist, and many other try to pretend it dosnt, as for the rest of us what do we do? would you fancy taking them on head to head? tell then to piss off your not welcome, I wish we could and had off years ago, but its pretty impossible to intefere in another area within the Order,
    I think just as we have had to get used to the IRA in government we mite have to make the most of the situation, for definate I not gonna leave and hand it too them, hopefully over time through thier membership even they can see Protestantism is matter on personal faith and has no room for hatred, as has happened in the past. Still sure you dont want to come to my 12th? 🙂

  • LURIG

    Without committing myself Drumlins and without identifying yourself or Lodge tell me where your county district gathering is this year and I will try to get along for a peek.

  • Wilde Rover

    dunreavynomore,

    “Very strange, I asked a simple question about the symbolism behind Orange arch decorations such as the skull and cross bones amongst others fully expecting that some Orange order member would explain but no, nobody did.”

    http://www.taroscopes.com/miscellanous-pages/briefhistoryireland.html

    Let’s see how long this can stay up before the legal stormtroopers storm Slugger’s citadel.

  • Drumlins Rock

    Mroning Lurig, just getting ready here,
    our Parade is always in the Clogher Valley, and this year is in Fivemiletown, just over 20 bands so quite small, the bigger Fermanagh county one is just a few miles up the road in Lisbellaw so you could see both, the paradesw commission have a great website btw. gives you full details of all parades.

  • the future;s bright, the future’s orange

    I’m originally from tyrone but now live in belfast. I wouldn’t go within a mile of the belfast parade to be honest, but the parades up in tyrone and fermanagh are a decent day out: with actually come colour and variety in terms of bands!

  • Drumlins Rock

    Dunreavynomore, Will try to fill you in on the symbolism a bit some othertime, just a bit busy today, lol
    Rite I off here, if you are going out have a wonderful day, if your not going anywhere, just chill and watch the telly, chat laters, doubt i will have tiem to add to the twittery thingy