Second Spanish man facing extradition hearing

With convicted ETA killer José Ignacio (Iñaki) de Juana Chaos still to face his extradition hearing in May, the BBC are reporting that a second Spanish man has been arrested in west Belfast on a European arrest warrant and will also face extradition proceedings in connection with terrorist offences in Spain.

, , ,

  • picador

    I dare you to call Iñaki Spanish to his face.

  • Jon

    The Spanish (in) justice is pathetic; this guy is wanted in Spain just for being a member of a youth pro-basque political movement (Haika), similar to Ogra, eirigi…
    Spain considers terrorist anybody who’s member of pro basque organisations, no matter if it’s a political party, youth organisation, or editors of basque magazines, newspapers, radios…

  • Paul McMahon

    Precisely Jon, the only charge against this guy is that he was a member of a pro-independence POLITICAL youth movement.

    An offence that he has indeed already spent time in prison for.

    In a supposedly progressive European Community the Spanish state should hang it’s head in shame for jailing political opposition. It would seem that Franco is not dead.

  • If the Spainish state adopted a treaty similar to the Good Friday Agreement which gives the future of NI in the hands of the electorate of NI then they would pull the rug from beneath ETA’s feet.

    ETA’s battle continues because they can point to the 50%-60% of the people of Euskadi who vote for independence parties (including supporters of the banned Batasuna – the ‘Basque Sinn Fein’) and say Spain will never agree to a democratic solution to Basque aspirations. ETA is further strengthened in this respect by the Spanish decision to throw out the Ibarretxe Plan. Ibarretxe leader of the Basque nationalist PNV (see SDLP Basque style) and premiere of Euskadi, proposed a step below full independence – ‘free association’ similar to Puerto Rico and the USA. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibarretxe_Plan Even this was thrown out by the Spanish natioanlists – the governing Labour party, PSOE and conservative PP.

    So, the choice to the 60% of pro-independence Basques is, erm, no choice at all and to know their place as the nation defeated by Franco or support ETA. Most don’t support ETA but most want independence by a democratic ballot.

    My guess? The Basque country and Spain are in for a violent few years. Democracy can solve this – respect the legitimate right of a nation which pre-exists the Spanish state by some thousands of years, to assert their democratic choice to become an independent state. It’s time Spain supported democracy.

  • Dewi

    Well said Macsen.

  • RG Cuan

    The Spanish state’s stance on political diversity is a blight on the European Union, and all other countries involved.

    Iñaki de Juana is a totally separate case, all this Basque fella did was get involved in politics.

    It’s about time the Irish and British government’s raised this issue in Brussels.

  • It is not just Spanish justice that is up the wall, we are getting to the stage when anyone who opposes occupation or oppression is liable to find the organization they belong to on an international ‘war on terror’ list. Last week a Tamil was arresting in London for flying their flag at a demo and Palestinians who support Hamas have been branded as terrorist despite Hamas wining a democratic election.The Basque lads are victims of this type of ‘justice.’

    Finally picador is correct when he condemns Pete for calling them Spanish and Pete should correct his mistake and if he refuses one can only presume he used the word Spanish to taunt these people and their supporters, which I am sure was not his intention.

  • Enoch was right

    [i]Palestinians who support Hamas have been branded as terrorist despite Hamas wining a democratic election[/i]

    Hitler won a few elections in his day. I doubt that you’d argue too much if I stated that I believed he was a terrorist.

    While I have much sympathy for the Basque cause, these suspects nevertheless remain Spanish. There is, regrettably, no Basque Republic. Therefore, while they are Basque, and can first and foremost be classified that way, their nationality will remain ‘Spanish’ (or ‘French’) until Basque independence is attained. I’d consider it rather petty to argue over such semantics when the broader issue is more important.

  • txomin

    As mentioned in a previous post, Iñaki de Juana Chao’s case is completely different.

    The guy arrested today is not and he’s never been an ETA member,his ‘terrosist’ offence has been to be a member of a youth pro-basque political organization. If he’s sent back home, he’ll serve 6 years for such an ‘terrorist ofence’!!

  • Enoch

    It seems to me any sympathy you might express would be between shit and syphilis in your dictionary.

  • Enoch was right

    Mick: stop playing the victim card, as usual.

    [i]one can only presume he used the word Spanish to taunt these people and their supporters[/i]

    Come on. What should they have been called? Basque? Oh ok. And from now on we’ll always refer to Brian Cowen as the Taoiseach from the Midlands, Barack Obama will be the Pacific Islander President and Gordon Brown will be PM from Fife. Euskadi is an autonomous region – not an independent country.

    You’ve picked a very, very petty fight. Surely your energies would be better spent promoting Basque independence in other ways i.e. avoiding semantics and cheap insults.

  • And your energies would be better spent than using a provocative and insulting handle like ‘Enoch was right.’ Tell me, how was he right?

    Then again, don’t bother, as on this thred you’re clearly a wind up merchant.

  • Rory Carr

    “Hitler won a few elections in his day. I doubt that you’d argue too much if I stated that I believed he was a terrorist.” – Enoch

    I certainly wouldn’t argue against you on this< Enoch. A man is entitled to believe whatever he wants including the silly idea that Hitler, who was Chancellor of the Third Reich was a terrorist in the sense that we are talking about.I know that it is fashionable today to label Bush and Blair etc. as terrorists because of their vile, illegal invasion of Iraq but it is also silly. The term 'terrorist', as it is commonly understood, refers to a member of a (usually small) extra-legal group which takes up arms against an existing state institution. We may of course find the terrorist group's aims and actions justifiable or not just as we may judge the acceptability of the state's actions.So in that sense, whatever of their crimes, we really would do better than not to label Bush, Blair or even Hitler as 'terrorists'. It just gets folks confused.

  • Enoch was right

    Now I understand! Your inability to distinguish between my views on immigration and my views on the Basque country lie at the source of your little outbursts! You seem to thrive on a sense of victimhood and unnecessary agitation – why else would you resort to personal attacks based on my pseudynom which bear no relation to the issue of this particular thread? Thanks for making it so crystal clear. Pathetic.

    Your not seriously trying to win the argument with silly little childish insults like “wind up merchant” are you? Again, pathetic.

    You love playing the victim, don’t you? I suppose any self-declared supporter of Hamas would be well versed in doing so. Now, in future, how about keeping to the actual topic of the thread? And, in doing so, how about avoid semantics, promoting a state of victimhood and grotty, ill-conceived personal attacks.

    Agur.

  • Enoch was right

    [i]The term ‘terrorist’, as it is commonly understood, refers to a member of a (usually small) extra-legal group which takes up arms against an existing state institution. [/i]

    That’s only a very, very recent development in the understanding of this very emotive and loaded term. While I understand, and agree with you completely, that contemporary usage of the term would not usually equate the actions of Hitler’s Reich with the actions of a terrorist, I would again stress that this is only a very recent phenomenon and a by-product of Israel’s representation of Palestinian militancy. Many contemporary scholars insist on the necessity of labelling the actions of some sovereign states as ‘terrorist’ in nature. To that end, I would certainly describe Germany’s actions, 1933-45, as state terrorism.

  • pól

    Enoch, I suggest you acquaint yourself with the difference between the terms State and Nation.

  • Paul McMahon

    SHOCK HORROR!!

    Slugger thread strays off topic and gets bogged down in semantics.

    FFS Lads

  • Gael gan Náire

    Knowing the gentleman I can say there is nothing Spanish about him, political semantics and violence will not change that.

    Sought for his political beliefs, pure and simple.

    Fascism alive and well, no correction, on the rise.

  • RG Cuan

    Well said Paul.

    At the end of the day a young man who has been living in Belfast for the past 5 years, taking part in life here and adding to the community in many ways, may well be sent home to spend 6 years in prison for being active in politics.

    This is something which cannot happen. I hope he gets all the support he deserves.

  • Paul McMahon

    I also know the gentleman GGN and agree 100% with what you have said.

    BTW, news from EH, it’s rumored that the Audiencia Nacional are asking for thirteen years.

  • RG Cuan

    I thought they were asking for another 6…

    Anyway, injustice like this really gets to me, this case has to be fought to the end.

    Gora Villanueva.

  • Dave

    “Fascism alive and well, no correction, on the rise.”

    Calling a Spaniard Spanish is an example of fascism? If you want an example of the thuggery that underpins fascism in addition to your own foot-stomping caterwauling, I suggest you refer to Comment No 1 on this thread.

  • Pete Baker

    Guys

    Can we put the handbags down?

    There is no correction to the original post because no correction is required.

    The original post accurately reflects the BBC report at the time – before it was substantially rewritten to take into account the sensitivities of those involved.

    And that’s the key.

    I’m under no obligation to take account of those sensitivities. Nor am I under any obligations to facilitate anyone’s political psychosis.

    What, I wonder, did it say on the passport the accused surrendered?

    Now, back to the actual topic..

    And, going by the de Chaos case, the Belfast court will not be ruling on whether he’s guilty or innocent, but on whether the Spanish charge is matched by an equivalent charge in the UK.

  • dm

    If nothing else this thread has illustrated that we are capable of producing as much ill-informed rubbish about the Basque country as they are about Ireland. I found them to be a people and a region very much like ourselves, there are those who will kick up a stink about being called ‘spanish’ and vice versa and then there’s the bulk of people who aren’t bothered either way, who will chat away in castillian spanish and won’t take massive offence if you don’t know how to speak euskera. Anyone making this out to be some sort of massive slight is over egging the pudding somewhat. I doubt this particular fella would be too chuffed but it’s hardly inaccurate.

    The Basque country arguably enjoys a much stronger level of independence in Spain than NI does within the UK, for example. Although the former lehendakari is none too pleased, as a PSOE-PP coalition has won a majority in the regional elections, and so the new PM of the region will not, for the first time, be a Basque nationalist. Still, that’s democracy eh? Having said that I would hardly describe the PSOE as Spanish ‘nationalists’ given the various connotations that particular term has in Spain.

    As regards the charges, I believe he’s wanted on the equivalent of ‘membership of an illegal organisation’, although I’m not sure. The difference bewteen Eirigi/Ogra/whatever and Jarrai-Haika-Segi is that the latter is illegal by law.

  • Dave

    Some folks need to learn the difference between a stateless person, national groups and a so-called stateless nation. There are 10 of these autonomist or secessionist nations under Spanish sovereignty and all of them operate under the banner of Spanish state, being granted that nationality under the relevant international law. The Basques are just one of those Spanish groups. Naturally, the other 9 are ignored by the Shinner sympathizers because they don’t glamorously decapitate innocent people in pursuit of political goals.

  • Dave

    By the way, below is a list of the 10 autonomist and/or secessionist nations under Spanish sovereignty. The Shinners won’t have heard of the other 9 or have the slightest interest in their respective causes. In defending the Basques and ETA, all they’re really doing is defending the Shinners sectarian murder campaign by proxy.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_autonomist_and_secessionist_movements#Spain

  • Paul McMahon

    ¨The Shinners won’t have heard of the other 9 or have the slightest interest in their respective causes¨

    That´s a mighty arrogant statement Dave

  • RG Cuan

    Pete

    What, I wonder, did it say on the passport the accused surrendered?

    He doesn’t have a Spanish passport.

    Dave

    Apart from the Basque Country and Catalunya, those other secessionist movements within the Spanish state do not have the support of the majority of their repsective populations. I’ve been and and met a few of them and the profile of the Basque and Catalan situtaions are on a totally different level, and this is reflected in their levels of autonomy.

  • Seimi

    ‘Calling a Spaniard Spanish is an example of fascism?’

    Umm, no. Sending a young man to jail for 13 years for being politically active is.

    I also know this guy, and I hope he manages to avoid this sentence. He has lived here for a good few years now and is a decent, hard working man, who shouldn’t be punished for his political views.

  • RG Cuan

    DM

    Although the former lehendakari is none too pleased, as a PSOE-PP coalition has won a majority in the regional elections, and so the new PM of the region will not, for the first time, be a Basque nationalist. Still, that’s democracy eh?

    No, it’s not. The only reason the new Lehendakari is not a Basque nationalist is that the Spanish Authorities ruled that all parties and platforms of the Izquierda Abertzale (leftwing Basque nationalists) were illegal. This meant that around 10% of the population had no political representation.

    Imagine that happening here in 2009. Thankfully we’ve moved on but the Spanish state is still living in the dark ages.

  • dm

    No, the reason we won’t see a Basque nationalist at the Basque parliament is because not enough people voted for PNV/EA/everyone else. There have been numerous debates over the impact of spoiling the vote etc. because several (not all) of the izquierdista parties were made illegal due to their links with ETA; the mass voiding of votes did not happen as predicted. The option was still there then to vote for a number of Basque nationalist parties, and the PNV did indeed pick up a big whack of seats, but not enough.

    I happen to agree with you in that the idea of a politial party being banned seems instinctively unsavoury but I don’t think in this case it it meant that “around 10% of the population had no political representation”. I believe the Spanish approach to parties it considers to be linked to ETA is an extension of its vigorous campaign against ETA itself which has has marked success of late. I’m not commenting upon the success or otherwise of the political strategy, simply highlighting that it may be part of a broader push against extremism.

  • dm

    *should be “a Basque nationalist at the head of the Basque parliament”, obviously.

  • Slightly off topic but i just wondered if anyone knows if the Basques in general accept the right of Gibraltarians to remain as a Self Governing British Overseas Territory?

  • RG Cuan

    It is part of the Spanish ‘anti-extremism’ policy but it’s still totally antidemocratic.

    About 10% of voters spoiled their ballots, a massive percentage in any election. As you said, they could have voted for other Basque parties but the fact remains their own parties – for no solid reason – were forced from the election process.

  • Pete,

    If it were not so sad, I would find it almost laughable that anyone from the North, whether Unionist, nationalist, republican or sluggerite/whatever would so lightly dismiss another man’s birthright.

    I feel this case is very dangerous and to dismiss it as if it is an internal Spainish affair, by claiming the young man is Spanish, when he clearly is not, is a cop out if not worse.

    Apart from chucking stones at the Shinners who support the young Basque, no one has questioned here their claim that he faces a 6 year sentence for expressing his political beliefs. This being so I see no reason why all democrats do not get behind him.

    After all whilst Spain has made great strides since Franco died, the after-burn from the dictatorship still lingers within the Spanish State bureaucracy and judiciary and claims for full independence for the Basque region of Spain and France and Eta’s armed actions often gets mixed up in the bureaucrats and judges minds.

  • dm

    Obviously the Spanish Supreme Court believed they had enough of a reason to ban them. Worth noting that the EU classes Askatasuna as being part of ETA and thus as an outlawed organisation – as are Jarrai-Haika-Segi.

  • RG Cuan

    This being so I see no reason why all democrats do not get behind him.

    Totally agree.

  • dm

    mickhall – surely the issue is that he has been accused of membership of an organisation which is illegal under Spanish law, rather than his political preferences?

  • RG Cuan

    Obviously the Spanish Supreme Court believed they had enough of a reason to ban them.

    The Spanish that some of those involved in the new parties were once in Batasuna, and so they make the entire party illegal. What logic. It’s clear they’re looking for any excuse to clamp down on democracy.

    Many, many people have been arrested and put in prison this year simply for putting up a political poster or handing out election leaflets. What year, or continent, are we living in?

  • Jon

    As regards the charges, I believe he’s wanted on the equivalent of ‘membership of an illegal organisation’, although I’m not sure. The difference bewteen Eirigi/Ogra/whatever and Jarrai-Haika-Segi is that the latter is illegal by law.
    ———————————————
    The thing is that Eirigi/Ogra/whatever would be illegal under spanish law ! And the leadership/members of those organisations would be sent to prison for 6 years for being members of a terrosist organisation!

    Spanish have closed and banned radio stations,magazines,papers, political parties, youth political movements… Lá, Andesonstown News,Féile FM would be closed for being part of a terrosist organisation!

    The only “terrostist offence” of this guy has been to be involved in pro-basque independece politics!

  • dm

    Jon – pointless what-if scenarios there. Wha tdo you think about the EU’s stance on the aforementioned groups?

    A genuine question here, as regards the ins and outs of extradition, on what grounds could our Courts reject the request? Is it, as Pete says, a matter of seeing whether we have a corresponding offence over here?

  • Paul McMahon

    “A genuine question here, as regards the ins and outs of extradition, on what grounds could our Courts reject the request?”

    To my knowledge this young man is not a member of either Batasuna or ETA. Perhaps that should be his defence?

  • Enoch was right

    If it’s such a breach of one’s human rights that one can be prosecute for wing a member of a particular political organization then why has this state of affairs not been challenged at the European Court of Justice or European Court of Human Rights?

    By the way, which country issued the (expired) passport that Iñaki was made to surrender? Surely the answer to this question would be a big indication as to his nationality.

  • Enoch was right

    *for being a member of…

  • Thanks to Dave above i go home tonite safe in the knowledge that at the next Quiz Nite i attend (N’Ards on 6th May) shud the question be asked -“Who is the Secretary General of the Popular Front of the Canary Islands?”, i will be able to scribble down “Tomas Quintana” and know that for once i have got a correct answer in a quiz. The Organisation is for reasons better known to itself also called Frepic-Awanak but that is unlikely to be a question. Thanks Dave.

  • dm

    Paul – I wasn’t asking what the potential defence might be in this specific case, rather on what grounds, generally speaking, can the UK refuse an extradition request? Just curious.

  • Brian MacAodh

    “the end of the day a young man who has been living in Belfast for the past 5 years, taking part in life here and adding to the community in many ways, may well be sent home to spend 6 years in prison for being active in politics.”

    Has he actually been adding to the community? All his lawyers produced was a “flyer” to back up his claims of running a tourism business. Most businesses could provide proof besides a 1 page flyer. There also is the fact that he was on the dole….Obvoiusly you say you know the guy, what is his deal?

    Regardless of his specific case, does that/ can that happen all over the EU? Can people just move to a new country and then immediately get on public assistance???

    The US welfare state is pathetic but not that bad (yet)

  • Paul McMahon

    “Why has this state of affairs not been challenged at the European Court of Justice or European Court of Human Rights?”

    Because there is no legal machanism available to challange it at the ECJ Enoch. As for the ECHR an appeal is currently underway.

    “On ratifying the Amsterdam Treaty, the member States of the European Union decided that the decisions taken in the framework of Foreign Policy and Common Security (FPCS) would not be susceptible to be controlled by the Court of Justice of the European Community with headquarters in Luxembourg. Therefore, the associations affected by inclusion in these lists cannot appeal to the Court of Justice of the European Community to challenge the legality of the decisions that directly affect them, nor to obtain retribution for the serious prejudice that they have suffered

    But both Basque organisations appealed this inclusion on the bases of the right to the
    honour and the right to compensation. The president of this tribunal in a decree made public on 27th February 2007 recognised that there are not ways to appeal against a decision of the Foreign Policy and Common Security (FPCS). The structure of the European Union lacks this procedure. Now the European internal judicial process has been exhausted and now there is a possibility to appeal to the European Court of Human Rights against the 25 States that composes the European Union

    In the framework of the European Union, they don’t have the “right to have their case be heard by an impartial tribunal”, a right set in article 6 of the European Convention for Human Rights. For that reason, and in order to be able to defend their rights, that these organizations had no other means left to them but to appeal against the members States in front of the European Court of Human Rights. Christina Eckes, from the Centre of European Law, King’s College London considered that “the second (Common Foreign and Security Policy—CFSP) and third (Justice and Home Affairs—JHA) pillars of the EU do not provide the judicial protection required for such measures in a state of law”. She concludes that “The SEGI case demonstrates that the EU’s attempts to fight international terrorism have drifted into non-judicial territory”.

    http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:ojyKrfDEklUJ:ejp.icj.org/IMG/Behatokia.pdf+basque+challenges+to+banning+basque+youth+groups+in+echr&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk

  • Rory Carr

    Hey, Militant Mike, just so you can (at last) get two questions answered correctly in your pub quiz, the correct spelling of ‘tonite’ is ‘tonight’.

    p.s. The capital of the USA is Washington D.C. and it was David who slew Goliath in the biblical story. There! that’s four now, You’re cruising to a third place at least.

  • Jon

    “Why has this state of affairs not been challenged at the European Court of Justice or European Court of Human Rights?”
    ———————————————–
    Enoch, check this link in which you can read an interview with Un Rapporteur, Martin Schenin.

    http://www.indymedia.ie/article/92019

    Un Rapporteur, Martin Schenin:

    – “Spain has institutions that have no place in a democracy”

    – “The Spanish definition of terrorism extends itself more and more and at the end engulfs crimes that have nothing to do with terrorism. I believe that the use of the anti-terrorist legislation is too broad in Spain.”

    – “It acts against groups that have nothing to do with violence”

    – “The Spanish Government has answered your report stating that the TERRORISM is in the OBJECTIVE, not in the BEHAVIOUR.”

  • Jon

    Has he actually been adding to the community?
    ————————————————
    This guy has a programmar every week in Feile FM, he’s organised a huge amount of activities for the Feile an Phobail West Belfast festival for many years, he’s brought lots of tourists (specially basques) to west belfast, he’s brought many basque music bands over and he’s organized lots of concerts,he’s even attended many irish classes…

    He’s only “terrorist offence” has been to be involved in a youth pro-basque organization.

    And you know Spains opinion,terrorism is in the objective, not in the behaviour.”

  • Paul McMahon

    And given Euskera classes to the natives Jon

  • picador

    To Dave,

    Callate imbécil!

    You obvious haven’t forgiven me for ridiculing your ludicrous arguments on another thread.

    Now go back to lawschool and finish your course.

    And don’t call me a Sinn Féiner again.

  • picador

    Mick Hall,

    I didn’t condemn Pete. I merely poked fun at him. Sometimes he doesn’t know the difference.

    BTW when Iñaki went to the Spanish Embassy in Dublin they refused him a passport.

    Legally these guys might be Spanish nationals but in all other senses they are not.

  • Dave

    “Callate imbécil!” – picador

    You can copy-and-paste foreign language swearing from Google. Good boy. I’d probably be disappointed with that ‘retort’ if I had actually expected better from someone with the mental age of a sperm.

    “You obvious haven’t forgiven me for ridiculing your ludicrous arguments on another thread.” – picador

    I’m sure I’d have found it in my heart to forgive you if I, like you, had mistaken your drivel for anything that qualified as a rebuttal.

    “Now go back to lawschool and finish your course.” – picador

    Ah, the meat on the bones, at last. This would be where you belive that nationality is self-nominated under international law. Therefore, according to this delusion, the Spaniard in question is not Spanish because he self-nominates as other, and reinforces this delusion with a threat to inflict violence on those who point out his delusion. He may be Basque, but he is definately Spanish.

    However, nationality is not self-nominated but is defined very clearly in the links. Your problem with this reality is that you are British just as the Spaniard in question is Spanish, and that confirmation of your nationality, despite your erroneous interpretation of it, is also what the British-Irish Agreement and the GFA affirm under local laws.

    “And don’t call me a Sinn Féiner again.” – picador

    Not even a Shinner sympathizer, Shinner? 😉

  • Dave

    “Legally these guys might be Spanish nationals but in all other senses they are not.” – picador

    And, legally, a corpse might be deceased, but it picadorland it isn’t. Thanks for that gem 😉

  • RG Cuan

    He has taught both Euskara and Spanish, studied Gaeilge at the University of Ulster, he has two sides to his tourism enterprise – one which promotes Ireland among mainland Europeans and another one which is aiming to promote the Basque Country as a tourist destintation among Irish people. As mentioned above he is also is an event organiser and a regular tour guide.

    If he gets extradited it will be a total disgrace to European democracy.

    Villanueva Abú.

  • picador

    No he copiado nada de Google imbécil.

    Aqui están las pruebas.

    Si todavía no me crees, bueno.

    Really, when you start accusing the majority of Irish people of being unionists you should realise that you have lost the argument.

    And when you start insulting Irish people by caloling them British well, you are a wanker in any language.

  • Dave

    The majority of Irish people? No, nobody in Ireland lives under British sovereignty or agreed to live under British sovereignty. You are confusing Irish people with Northern Irish people in Northern Ireland.

    That is not an accusation: it is a fact. Squealing about how you can self-nominate as being non-British and now those you helpfully inform you that you cannot are “wankers” and “imbeciles” and whatever schoolyard insult your numbskull can concoct does not alter reality in any way.

  • RG Cuan

    Picador tiene la razón, este Dave es un tonto muy burro que entiende nada de los complejidades en Euskal Herria ni Irlanda.

    Soy Gael Irlandés del norte de mi país, y mi país es Irlanda. Nothing can change that, and it’s even what my passport says too!

  • picador

    LOL. You really are a mentalist Dave. If you could type in green or red ink you would.

    ‘Thuggish’, ‘fascist’, ‘mental age of a sperm’, ‘numbskull’ – and you have the chutzpah to complain about schoolyard insults!

    The sell-out traitors are all in the north says the ‘republican’ purist. LOLOL.

    I will leave you to your lawbooks, Professor.

  • Paul McMahon

    Donde has aprendido el Castillano Picador? Hablas lo bien.

  • picador

    Estudié en Londres y viajé muchas veces en varios regiones de España incluiso El País Vasco pero aprendí a hablar la lengua bastante bien en linda México donde trabajaba como narco con el cartel de Sinaloa. Qué viva El Chapo y los negros!

  • Paul McMahon

    Donde has estado en Euskal Herria y quando era la ultima vez que estuvistes alli?

  • picador

    Fui al País Vasco en 2005 y pasé una semana allá. Estuviste en Bayonne, St Jean de Pied Port / Donibane Garazi – hizó el camino hasta Roncesvalles – Donostia y Bilbao. Paisajes maravillosos, cocina inolvidable – me gustaría ir otra vez.

    Creo que Dave es un zeta. Voy a cortarle la lengua a la columbiana.

  • picador

    Has estado allí muchas vezes? En cuales pueblos?

  • Paul McMahon

    Estoy de acuerdo con tigo sobre la comida, bueno, me voy a la cama. Muchas gracias por las respuestas y espero que hablamos otra vez.

    Gabon

  • Paul McMahon

    Perdon, si, he estado alli muchas vezes.

  • Paul McMahon

    Perdon otra vez…He estado en Baiona, Biarritz y Hendaya algunas vezes y en casi todas las ciudades y pueblos de todas las provincias de Hagoalde.

  • Dave

    Picador, sweetheart, why don’t you try reading the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act 2004?

    (1) Subject to section 6A (inserted by section 4 of the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act 2004), every person born in the island of Ireland is entitled to be an Irish citizen.

    Subject to subsection (5), a person who is entitled under subsection (1) to be an Irish citizen shall be an Irish citizen from the date of his or her birth if—

    (i) he or she [b]does any act that only an Irish citizen is entitled to do[/b], or (ii) in the case of a person who is not of full age or who is suffering from a mental incapacity, any act is done on his or her behalf that only an Irish citizen is entitled to do.

    Do you see where it says that you are not Irish if you are born in Her Majesty’s territory of Northern Ireland unless you do “any act that only an Irish citizen is entitled to do”?

    Do you understand what that means? It means you are born British, but have the right to declare yourself Irish if you do an “act that only an Irish citizen is entitled to do” (as defined under the Act) such as apply for an Irish passport. Even if you act in that manner, you remain British.

    Therefore, as I have helpfully explained to you before, your actual birthright is British citizenship. That is the default position. A birthright does not, by definition, require any action on your part since – for very slow learners such as yourself – you are born that way. Since becoming an Irish citizen does require action on your part, Irish citizenship is not your birthright. That is what you formally renounced when you signed the GFA.

    What the British-Irish Agreement says is that your “birthright” is not Irish citizenship but, rather, the right to apply for Irish citizenship and be automatically granted it subject to meeting the requirements of the relevant Irish nationality law and any subsequent amendments to it. Those are two profoundly different rights.

    So, as I have irrefutably proven to you once again, you are born British and not Irish, and do not become Irish unless you act in the manner stipulated in the Act. So, this self-nomination is purely cosmetic local law and does not affect your British citizenship in any way. Even if you declare yourself Irish (as you must formally do), you will remain as a British citizen – as that is your actual birthright.

    Incidentally, there is nothing new in this arrangement other than you now must act to declare yourself Irish whereas before the 19th Amendment you were Irish by birthright under the Irish constitution. Likewise, there is nothing new in the Unionist Veto (rebranded as the Principle of Consent), since that was the position since partition. The only change is that the former northern nationalists accepted the legitimacy of it whereas they had previously rejected it.

    Did you get it that time? If not, don’t worry unduly. I’m a very patient man. 😉

  • Dave

    Okay, let’s give a very short version of it:

    “…every person born in the island of Ireland is entitled to be an Irish citizen… if… he or she does any act that only an Irish citizen is entitled to do…”

    Notice the conditional? Notice that the ‘entitlement’ “to be an Irish citizen” is the birthright and not Irish citizenship itself? Notice that Irish citizenship is not default, but subject to action on your part? Notice that the quoted subsection applies to “the island of Ireland” which includes the extraterritorial Northern Ireland? An “Irish citizen” is someone born in Ireland, so no such action is required in Ireland, but only those British people in Northern Ireland who would like to become Irish.

  • Rory Carr

    What with all these interjections of dialogue in Spanish, this thread is fast turning into a Cormac McCarthy novel and this ding-dong between Dave and Picador threatens to emulate the horror of Blood Meridian which, by comparison, makes the violence in All the Pretty Horses seem, well …pretty.

    Hasta la vista! and all that, muchachos.

  • Gael gan Náire

    Dave,

    When you speak of Irish citzenship you speak only of citizenship you speak only of 26 Counties.

    “as I have irrefutably proven to you once again, you are born British and not Irish, and do not become Irish unless you act in the manner stipulated in the Act.”

    You confuse Free State legislation with Irish Nationality, the 26 Counties can pass whatever legislation they wish, but we Irish people north of the border regard Ireland to have 32 counties, therefore it is quite irrelevant what the Dublin government dictates.

    Hence we keep going down and winning ‘All-Irelands’.

    My parish is Irish, in Ireland and populated mostly by Irish people.

    Respectfully, I feel it is you would cannot understand that, though that has no relevance.

  • Paul McMahon

    I don’t want to be drawn into this citizenship sideshow Dave but I’m curious.

    After trawling through your legalese I’ve a few questions to ask. If I’ve picked this up incorrectly then correct me and that’ll be the end of it as I don’t have the time nor inclination to turn this into a seven pager arguing over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin on a subject that has no relevance to the original thread.

    “What the British-Irish Agreement says is that your “birthright” is not Irish citizenship but, rather, the right to apply for Irish citizenship and be automatically granted it subject to meeting the requirements of the relevant Irish nationality law and any subsequent amendments to it. Those are two profoundly different rights”

    “Incidentally, there is nothing new in this arrangement other than you now must act to declare yourself Irish whereas before the 19th Amendment you were Irish by birthright under the Irish constitution. Likewise, there is nothing new in the Unionist Veto (rebranded as the Principle of Consent), since that was the position since partition. The only change is that the former northern nationalists accepted the legitimacy of it whereas they had previously rejected it”

    As The Agreement is not retrospective are you then suggesting that those who hold an Irish Passport and were born before The Agreement are actually Irish and those with an Irish Passport born after The Agreement are not?

    Please clarify and move on, this is my first and last comment on the matter.

  • Strabane Battywatcher

    I think that in between nailing each other, picador and Paul have nailed Dave’s ill-informed (some would say wishful thinking) non-sensical rantings.

    Dave, it doesn’t go away just cos you close your eyes

  • Dave,

    I am not saying you are mistaken because you are a bright man who normally checks out the facts and I know little about government acts that cover citizen ship. However I made a conscious choice to remain English as I could have automatically become a citizen of another country due to an accident of birth.[Not Ireland]

    My daughter had the choice of English or Irish something which again was due to an accident of birth.

    On this I am with Paul.

  • RG Cuan

    Picador

    Los cárteles en méxico, muy bien! Por cierto, qué signífica ‘zeta’? No lo he oído…

  • picador

    Dave,

    My passport says Irish. But in any case I don’t need the permission of the Free State government to be an Irishman.

    And citizenship is no longer the automatic right of those born in Ireland (north or south) as the rules were changed following a referendum several years back.

    According to your warped logic any person born in Ireland between 1800 and 1921 (and perhaps later) was British. Leaving aside the fact that Pearse’s father was English and Connolly was born in Scotland that would mean that those who fought in the Rising and the War of Independence were British.

    RG,

    Los zetas – the ‘soldiers’ of the Gulf Cartel, said to be recruited from Mexican special forces.