Useless but fascinating fact

With yesterdays drink inspired mayhem in the Holylands, mostly in Carmel Street I am fascinated that none of our resident Christians have pointed out a very interesting (and useless) fact about Carmel Street.Carmel Street is named for Mount Carmel, Hebrew הַר הַכַּרְמֶל‎ ‘vineyard of God.’

  • GrammerGrammar

    I think you may have leaned on the ‘?’ button midway through that sentence. And the period should be after the quotation.

    Perhaps you should stick to Irish.

  • I believe the word you are looking for is כַּרְמֶלָּה

  • greenflag

    The ahem ‘Grapes of Wrath ‘ have been aroused GNG and I don’t mean by the student yobs 🙂
    As I write the ‘lost tribe’ are busily scouring the annals to see if this street can be hyped up to further evidence that end times are near and that God is an angry God especially when he’s had a few pints 😉

    Go raibh maith agat GNG . Na bac leis an amadan Bearlach 😉

  • fin

    “Holy Land: About 1890 Sir Robert J. McConnell, estate agent, and James Rea, a builder of small house property, went together on a trip to Egypt and Palestine. Upon their return James Rea commenced building on a still unoccupied portion of the Plains. With his Oriental tour fresh in mind he named some of the streets after places he had visited, viz. Carmel Street, Cairo Street, Damascus Street, Jerusalem Street, and Palestine Street.” (John J. Marshall and others – Origin of Some of Belfast’s Street Names )

  • dunreavynomore

    Fin

    Thank you. I like to know these wee things and had no idea where the ‘Holyland’ or ‘Holylands’ came from.

  • jesus

    This is the most stupid blog I have ever read. Standards here have dropped.

  • joeCanuck

    John O’Connell has lost the run of himself. Now sock puppeteering as well as trolling.

  • Due to the lush vegetation on the sloped hillside, and many caves on the steeper side, Carmel became the haunt of criminals (also known as students).

    The (20th century) Battle of Megiddo took place at the head of a pass through the Carmel Ridge, which overlooks the Valley of Jezreel from the south. Megiddo is also known as Armageddon.

    So there you go.

  • joeCanuck

    An ad hominem post, I believe.

  • Gael gan Náire

    Hebrew fixed.

    Man playing Trolling removed.

  • joeCanuck

    Not if it’s true.

  • Brian Walker

    while l’m impressed by the Hebrew script and the erudition, I’m more worried that on the week after the three murders, that mainly students, allegedly mainly Catholic culshies, attack the police when they ask them to clear the street of makeshift tables etc blocking it; and that QUB and UU authorities are entirely passive about a long running sore. If the civil authority can’t deal with this, what hope is there for more polticised situations? Unis, start imposing discipline!

  • joeCanuck

    Not if it’s true.

    You would know.

  • “her Sinn Féin, eh ih, colleague, eh uh, Miss McDonald of course, hasn’t got past, eh, uttering a view stammering stuttering pidgin English uh uh pidgin Irish”

    Priceless!

  • BTW, it’s taking this site ages to load.

  • Ah now, even I noticed the Carmel connection ( http://overthebridgeni.wordpress.com/ ) and I’m an atheist. Then again according to some we’re the sort who support the murders. ( First comment )

    http://www.irishtimes.com/blogs/politics/2009/03/09/two-more-names-on-the-long-list-of-casualties/

  • Greenflag

    Perhaps messrs McConnell & Rea had a preview of future residents of Mount Carmel ?

    That ‘Holylands’ Mount Carmel has another connection although . McConnell & Rea alas would ot nhave been aware of it 😉 so we can’t accuse them of a deja preview 😉

    ‘Fossil remains of Neanderthal Man have been discovered mainly across Europe and in the Middle East. This model cast of a Neanderthal burial site originates from Mugharet El-Kebarah, a cave site on Mount Carmel, Israel. The site was first excavated in 1964 by M. Stekelis who worked on the North East wall of the cave. Other excavation sites on Mount Carmel include Caves at Geulah, Mugharet es-Skhul, Mugharet et-Tabun and Mugharet el-Wad.’

  • Greenflag

    That ‘Holylands’ Mount Carmel has another connection although McConnell & Rea alas would nothave been aware of it 😉 so we can’t accuse them of a deja preview 😉

    ‘Fossil remains of Neanderthal Man have been discovered mainly across Europe and in the Middle East. A Neanderthal burial site was discovered at Mugharet El-Kebarah, a cave site on Mount Carmel, Israel. The site was first excavated in 1964 by M. Stekelis who worked on the North East wall of the cave’

    BTW – Scientists are close to completing the Neanderthal ‘genome’ which should give clues as to when exactly our nearest hominoid cousins ‘branched ‘ off the stem that led to homo sapiens (well maybe ). That would have been before God made the world of course as per our latter day creationists 🙁 as the research has proved that Neanderthal man survived some 250,000 years before becoming extinct circa 30,000 years ago .

  • picador

    I once saw the Wolfe Tones live on Mount Carmel. Ah, memories!

  • Rory Carr

    Wonderful piece of pedantry Glen na Gáire but a bitter disappointment to the rest of the unknowing world who had long assumed that the street was named after Carmel McSherry, the actress who played Concepta O’Reilly in the early years of the TV soap-opera Coronation Street.

    We will never look upon the street with the same bitter-sweet fondness. You have ruined it for us. Our dreams are turned to ashes.

    Next thing you’ll be telling us is that Victoria Street was named after a sponge cake – but we’re not having that!

  • Mac Thoirdealbhaigh

    Queens have surely added to the ‘greater social problem’ of drink abuse by steeply increasing the cost of membership to their multi-purpose sports gymnasium and swimming pool facilities at the ‘PEC’. It has went up in cost in recent years from £50 to £100 then to £120 and in the most recent hike to a whopping £300+ for a years ‘student’ subscription. One can’t help but be suspicious that quite a sizeable percentage of students will opt to forego this grossly exorbitant ‘tariff’ and choose to save that fairly hefty sum( for students et al) in favour of a few nights out (or in?!) partying, aided by alcohol,etc……the bottom line is that the sports facilities should be either free or have just a nominal tariff to encourage greater useage!!

  • michael

    Mac Thoirdealbhaigh,

    Depends on how you pay for the PEC. I pay by direct debit, £17 per month, which works out at £204 per year. However, i can cancel that at any time. That is, if I didnt live in Belfast during the summer months, or for a month at Xmas, I’d be paying £136 per year. That is of course on the student rate.

    You are right however that the price rises are ridiculous, the last single access payment (i.e. access without PEC membership) went from £2 to £4 in one go.

  • Mac Thoirdealbhaigh

    personally I would suggest a £2 nominal charge on entry with a valid student i.d card…. or £50-£75 yearly membership (no entrance fee if a member).

  • Mac Thoirdealbhaigh

    obviously the costs to this region in terms of adverse publicity across the world and to Queens University itself as a ‘leading Russell Group University’ are insurmountable, all for the sake of a worthwhile ‘people investment’ sum spent on a subsidised sports tariff for our youth!? “Wake up”, bureaucrats at Q.U.B!!

  • Dan Quayle

    It is not known as the Potatoe University for nothing!

  • jivaro

    Comment 12: ‘Unis, start imposing discipline’?

    If these drink sodden youths are not afraid of the police, a crack or two of the baton, a night in the cells and a criminal record, does anyone really think they will quail at a University disciplinary committee in all its feeble glory?

    The universities cannot substitute for the civil power in a public order situation, and it is beyond ridiculous to think that they can.

    Actually, the whole field of universities trying to punish over 18s for off-campus activity is a legal minefield in our present human-rights saturated public environment. I’m far from convinced that the universities have any real authority to do so, and suspect that any smart lawyer would pull these antiquated statutes and their creaking processes to pieces.

  • Dylan

    Absolutely correct ” jivaro”- Queens have no authority whatsoever over these students (private tenants in private dwellings.) Really what needs to be done is for Queens to spend the money necessary and build some decent student accommodation, safe and regulated where misdemeanors can be contained and punished if necessary, away from the glare of the public. What we have in South Belfast is basically a social problem that has snow balled over the years and could so easily be stamped out if someone had the gumption to act. Catholic students traditionally live in the Holyland area as it was the only safe area in South Belfast for someone of a Catholic persuasion, this has led to ghettoisation (not in any way helped by the attitude of locals to country people in general.) If kids are left to their own devices in a dilapidated area such as this what do Queens et al expect? They get enough in fees each year to remedy this problem.

  • michael

    jivaro

    ‘the whole field of universities trying to punish over 18s for off-campus activity is a legal minefield in our present human-rights saturated public environment.’

    Agreed, the universities can however take a more positive line. Perhaps a university and City Council run festival in Botanic Gardens, without entry fee obviously. Cheap bar, music, etc. At the very least it gets 400-500 people off the holy land streets for much of the day, thereby going some way to controlling the situation.

    With regards to the ‘investment in people’ at QUB PEC, i fear that they would argue that their investment in the new facilities is investment enough. Of course thats the very reason that the fees are going up. But in an environment where higher education is a consumerable and universities have to compete for applicants, a well equipped sports centre is a significant draw. Just ask who pays for it!

    £2 is reasonable, and students who attend the gym at least twice a week can achieve that cost (£2.13) if they sign up for the monthly membership tariff that i outlined above. However ‘booking’ charges aren’t included, these are things like racket ball courts or five-aside pitches.

  • Guppy

    It is essentially territorial as the Spotlight prgramme of a few years ago illustrated.

    And those to be driven out are the old, Protestants and owner occupiers. Sometimes all three come as one. ‘Great’.

    A new Tir Eoin.

  • Jimmy

    Take a Culchie out of his natural habitat and your bound to have problems. Back in thier Towns and Villages they would get a clout on the ear for that type of behaviour.
    Aside from that, in TV interviews the spokesman for Queens constantly avoided the Question posed to him that if Queens would expel Students involved in the rioting.
    Things havent changed so much since I went there, its all about the money, Every year it has the audacity to ask for Money from the Government for the Queens Festival yet sits on Multi million pound profits every year Queens corporate was always a money making racket and always will be. Thats why they will never take tough action or expel the trouble makers.

  • Dylan

    “Guppy”
    What do you expect really? Catholic students needed somewhere to live where they weren’t at risk of being attacked by the loyalists of Belfast and the Holyland was the only place suitable. It is only in recent years that there has been trouble so to suggest some long term plot to ethnically cleanse Protestants is laughable, after all no one is making a fuss about the fact that many other areas of South Belfast have a majority of protestant students amongst their population. Typical Unionist paranoia running rampant again. Also I note in the post by “Jimmy” talk of “culchies”, is it really any wonder that country people don’t give a damn about the rat infested shit holes of Belfast or their population when all they get is prejudice and abuse? The fact remains that thinly veiled hatred of anyone from outside Belfast is a major factor in this issue.

  • Mac Thoirdealbhaigh

    but surely 3rd level education (and its accomodational facilitation…especially Queens- the top institution!)shouldn’t be reduced to sectarian demarcations!? Shouldn’t catholic and protestant be enjoying St. Patrick’s Day together?

  • Dr Gabriel Mary Byrne

    It happened in Belfast Jimmy not Dublin as you wrote.

  • Jo

    “Catholic students needed somewhere to live where they weren’t at risk of being attacked by the loyalists of Belfast and

    So when the students get a place they feel comfy and with out repercussions, they can do whatever the fuck they like. I took up this issue wirh Chris Gaskin whenever he was involved with the Queens SU. He didn’t give a shit then and I dont suspect Queens give a shit now. they sold out their holdings to Eamon McCann,the Holyland was the only place suitable. “

  • Dylan

    Re: Jo
    Wake up and smell the coffee everyone please . Most of the students in the Holyland if not all are from a Catholic /Nationalist persuasion. After many generations of inherent second class citizenry and oppression they don’t give a fuck about South Belfast or the Protestant landlords whose houses they wreck.Also the general attitude towards country people, and by that I mean anyone from anywhere outside Belfast (regardless of age or whether they are a student or employed), from those in Belfast is a disgrace, this makes these students care even less. There has been a disproportionately high level of condemnation of what was essentially a few yahoos getting drunk and acting the dick, I have yet to see this kind of condemnation when Northern Ireland fans thrash the Lisburn Rd /Tates Av area before/after a match, much less than on the annual drunken mayhem on the 12th each year. Northern Ireland has created another generation of Catholics who completely disrespect the State, the Police and a large percentage of the population and no one should be too surprised.

  • Mac Thoirdealbhaigh

    i don’t think ALL city folk HATE our country cousins though ‘dylan’!? Maybe there’s a few residents up round the Holylands who are but I guess if i was old (or middle-aged)and a resident in an area swarmed by students, I would be pretty disillusioned by throngs of raucus revellers (catholic,protestant or hindu!). I doubt if the ‘constitutional issue’ is to the forefront of their minds either….sadly!? aaah….this coffee’s GREAT! 😉

  • Mac Thoirdealbhaigh

    i did hear however, from eye witnesses, that the PSNI had been using ‘strong arm tactics’ from very early on in the day….which may have been a major contributory factor to ‘the trouble’?? And yes, I would concur that loyalism gets away with much, much,worse on certain days of the calendar!!

  • Neil

    Dylan,

    I’ve lambasted the shit out of my Armagh neighbours earlier on this thread, but when I initially moved to the Holylands I had little or no experience of Armagh and Tyrone people. My ‘prejudices’ are a direct result of having lived next to a variety of different ‘culchie’ neighbours over about 6 years.

    My experiences of each and every one of them, be they male or female, was that they couldn’t give a fiddler’s fuck about their neighbours. I could give dozens of examples, almost all involving noise in the street (2 up 2 downs everywhere, if someone farts outside you can hear it), I was trying to study and work, getting out of bed at 5 a.m. to go and work in a coffeeshop/bakery, and every fucking night in life one of my fine turfer neighbours would be out, ensuring that NOBODY got any kip. Their attitude was universally ‘fuck you, I’m here to have fun and drink, and I’ll do as I please’.

    You say that it’s prejudice – you’d be right if the Armagh/Tyrone brigade actually behaved in anything like a normal way – but since they generally be noisy and don’t give a fuck about their neighbours, it’s not hard to see why those sleep deprived neighbours might eventually get to thinking that the country folk are the problem, instead of all us ‘complainers’ who couldn’t get any fucking sleep.