First reactions…

Ken Maginnes “there is very little support for this…”

David Simpson: “Positive moves such as the deployment of the Special Reconnaissance Regiment are welcome insofar as they go, but it is vital that the PSNI are given all the support and back up that they need to crush this murderous terrorist threat.”

David Ford: “The public’s resolve has been strengthened against these elements – everyone has spoken with one voice to say that peace is the only way forward.”

John O’Dowd: “John O’Dowd: politics is a very very difficult scenario but it can deliver a United Ireland. This is militarism for Militarism’s sake.”

Alex Maskey “Would like to convey our disgust and anger at what has happened”.

David Simpson: “With the greatest of respect I don’t think that Gerry Adams, or any of his party, is in any position to tell anyone in Northern Ireland about what they should and shouldn’t do. I mean at the end of the day the Chief Constable is responsible for the policing in Northern Ireland”

  • jone

    Yes OC that would be a splendid way to defend the rule of law

  • The Raven

    Such a contrast to come home to this news this evening from the opening night of the Ulster Hall, a night filled of youngsters trying to be hopeful about the future.

  • Dave

    “In this day and age the presence of Massereene barracks is not an affront to Irish people but Saturday night’s murderous assault most certainly was.” – Mark Durkan, SDLP

    The implication is clear: the problem is not British sovereignty over a part of Ireland, the problem is opposition to British sovereignty. In other words, it isn’t just violent opposition to the British military presence that is wrong, but any form of opposition to it.

    This cutely obfuscates two declarations:

    (1) the British State, aided by its military presence, rightly holds sovereignty over “Irish people” and they should, therefore, not object to this veto over their right to national self-determination and to its nation-state.

    (2) the “Irish people” should object to violent opposition to British rule.

    It’s easy to agree with the latter statement, but the former statement is utterly contemptible. It also exposes as bogus the claim that the agenda of these puppets of colonial control is to pursue the desired end of national self-determination and to its unified nation-state through political means rather than militant means. That end has been discarded and insofar as these puppets are pursuing any unity goal at all it is to unite the island under British sovereignty, thereby extending the veto of the legitimised British nation and it supporting sovereign state that exists in NI southwards.

    I don’t think the SDLP are post-nationalist at all but are now de facto British nationalists like the other post-GFA unionists. If you want people to use the democratic process as an alternative, then you have to provide the missing democratic process and an unbiased media to support it , rooting out those Intelligence Agencies who corrupt and control it will bribery, blackmail, intimidation, etc, on a massive scale. That isn’t going to happen, so you’re all on the proverbial road to nowhere, hoping that the control that only serves to undermine your rotten system will actually serve to prop it up.

    Condemnations might be get you a few tip-offs, but that’s all.

  • the problem is not British sovereignty over a part of Ireland, the problem is opposition to British sovereignty.

    No, about 40% of the population oppose British sovereignty and do so entirely legally and reasonably. The problem is people who murder other people for no good reason; and, regardless of your political perspective, there really is no good reason because, in case you weren’t paying attention for the past 40 years, this isn’t going to bring about a united Ireland.

    The fellow travellers and apologists on the internet are pretty nauseating, but I wouldn’t give them the credit of calling them a problem.

  • not impressed

    Sounds like you need a wee kleenex Dave.

  • not impressed

    sounds like all the clowns crying over the weekend about Orde being wrong about police getting targeted because it was actually the army might need to come back and eat their words.

    time for the police to start kicking ass i think.

  • JJ

    “there is very little support for this…”

    right or wrong, there is enough support to kill two soldiers, plant a bomb at a SF office, and kill a PSNI officer in 24 hours and get away with it.

  • Simon

    Dave > No idea how you read what Mark Durkan said then came to your completely ludicrous conclusion.

    The SDLP have brought this country closer to a united independant Ireland than any other political or military movement. They have brought both governments around to their way of thinking, achieved local, national and international support for the peace process, and managed to get all parties to work with each other.

    It is now the position that a United Ireland will come around when the majority want it, and when that happens the British govt/army will only too happily leave. You need to be more long sighted.

    In the 1970s when the IRA was killing everyone, there were 30,000 troops stationed here. Because of the peace process, there are now just 5,000 and the majority of them are only doing training here for service in Afghanistan/Iraq. This number will keep going down, but it sounds like you’d prefer them patrolling the streets and fighting the IRA once again.

  • Danny O’Connor

    For the slow learners,I voted yes, I accept the principle of consent-as do the overwhelming majority of people on this island ,who voted-for the first time north and south in 80 years,since the first Dail – that in my view ,is an endorsement by the Irish people and negates any pretention by these scumbags that they represent the Irish People.
    Given that the people voted to accept the principle of consent and to reject violence,Durkan was right ,and Dave I respectfully suggest you are wrong in your somewhat twisted logic.

  • kenny boy

    so who is next ? Gerry K , Gerry A , Marty ? Now then the spark will hit the powder keg ……

  • Dangerous times.

    Blog on this on

    http://canyouwalkonthericepaper.blogspot.com/\

    mike

  • Henry94

    Hugh Orde is reported to be stepping down. I would suggest a senior Garda officer should be given the post. The most important thing for policing now is nationalist support. The DUP for petty political reasons blocked the devolution of policing and justice.

    What an utterly short-sighted position that appears now.

  • Diluted Orange

    [i]The DUP for petty political reasons blocked the devolution of policing and justice.

    What an utterly short-sighted position that appears now.[/i]

    How is that so exactly? I think it’s pretty clear now that no matter what the DUP or the British do, a British security presence, whether it be the army or the police force, and whether that presence has a democratic mandate (which it does in Northern Ireland) it is irrelevant to dissident Republicans.

    Do you think P O’Neill in the RIRA would have said, “hold on boys, let’s disarm – we now have devolved policing”. I’m no Republican but I think I have a fairly good handle on the mentality of the RIRA. Devolved policing in NI, the decentralisation of any sort of British rule in Ireland is unacceptable. Am I right? The fact is that SF have settled for something a long way short of the Irish utopia they strive for – however they continue to try and dupe their own community into thinking we are on the road to a United Ireland?!

    You are clutching at straws I’m afraid – how about concentrating on condemning those, no matter what hue their politics are, who are trying to bomb and shoot us back to a horrible era I thought we had left behind us.

    Screw what the majority want – that’s been the mantra of Republicanism since its inception. The only way Republicanism has ever gained democratic credence is through the sympathy card. They rile the British dog until it snaps … and then all hell breaks loose. It happened in 1916, it happened in the early 1970s and my God I hope it doesn’t happen again now.

  • skullion

    Diluted

    “They rile the British dog until it snaps..”Do explain.

  • Henry94

    Diluted Orange

    It wasn’t the mentality of the rira I had in mind. They won’t be persuaded. They will have to be crushed and that could mean things like internment on an all-Ireland basis.

    They only way that could work is if the nationalist community felt a sense of ownership of the PSNI. It getting there but it’s not there yet and putting it in place is the single most important thing we can do in this struggle against these fascists.

    Internment failed in the 70s because we had a political problem. But now we have a political solution and it is under attack. I’m not calling for it now but it may become necessary if they sustain their campaign. It simply can’t work unless nationalist Ireland is behind it.

  • It was Sammy Mc Nally what done it

    In apparent slip of the tongue a conservative MP (cant remember his name)who used to be a soldier in Norn Iron(9 tours) said on Radio 5 last night that it was ‘cold blooded courage’.

  • Diluted Orange

    ““They rile the British dog until it snaps..”Do explain.”

    Mass support for republican militarism has only ever come about on the back of them inciting an over-reaction from British forces.

    Take the Easter Rising. Pearse, … etc were initially dismissed as wackos by the Irish public. They didn’t have a shred of support for their shenanigans at the GPO. Only when the Brits callously executed the perpetrators afterwards did the tide turn.

    In the Northern Irish Troubles, Bloody Sunday and the hunger strikes were the 2 big events that galvanised nationalist support of the IRA. Would the senseless slaughter that occurred on Bloody Sunday have happened had the paras not been put on high alert for IRA activity?

    A big, contentious question I know and slightly off-topic but basically, the Real IRA are looking forward to another f#ck-up from the Brits – that’s the only way Republicanism has ever been able to dig into the groundswell of public opinion. They want to step up the level of violence so that soldiers are forced back onto the streets and the rest will take care of itself.

  • It was Sammy Mc Nally what done it

    If the UU/Tories/TUV or the DUP succeed in delaying/postponing/abandoning the implementation of Police and Justice as a result of the recent dreadful attacks i.e. going against the declared will of the Irish people as per the GFA/STA then we will surely be heading back into the land of madness as it will be a massive boost to those who have carried out the attacks and will almost certainly lead to the collapse of the Assembly.

    The Tories need to distance themselves from Wee Reggie’s reckless speech in the assembly yesterday or we will have the nightmare scenario of a Tory government in waiting playing the Orange card – and we all know the history and resonance of that position.

  • Diluted Orange

    [i]They will have to be crushed and that could mean things like internment on an all-Ireland basis.

    They only way that could work is if the nationalist community felt a sense of ownership of the PSNI.[/i]

    OK, I agree that the RIRA need to be crushed but I don’t think we can ever get to a stage were internment is re-introduced. That was a disaster first time round. Let’s be honest here – the same tactic would target nationalist areas again and whatever gains in popular support are to be had from devolving police powers they would soon be lost fairly quickly if and when innocent people are having their houses turned over.

    Counter-intelligence and infiltration of the Real IRA and a [b]total[/b] rejection by the nationalist political leadership and community at large is the only way to defeat these guys.

  • skullion

    Diluted

    Thanks for that.I was hoping that’s what you meant.Just didn’t want to jump in with the size 12s and start ranting.

  • Henry,

    Given the inability of the Guards to control criminal violence in places like Limerick and Dublin, I’m not really sure I want one of them in charge of the PSNI. But what you seek may come to pass. Although I wouldn’t be surprised if none of them went for the job.

  • brendan,belfast

    Wasn’t there legislation passed post Omagh which allowed for prosecution based on the word of a senior cop? Has that legislation ever be used?

    What is the point of Gordon Brown or Shaun Woodward telling us that “these people will be caught” “justice will be done” etc? That did not work out very well for the Omagh families, and there is no point in using strong words just for the sake of it.

  • Dave

    “The SDLP have brought this country closer to a united independant Ireland than any other political or military movement. They have brought both governments around to their way of thinking, achieved local, national and international support for the peace process, and managed to get all parties to work with each other.” – Simon

    It sounds like you are their election agent. Save the PR spin for election day.

    “No idea how you read what Mark Durkan said then came to your completely ludicrous conclusion.” – Simon

    Well I can’t help you with basic reading skills.

    “It is now the position that a United Ireland will come around when the majority want it, and when that happens the British govt/army will only too happily leave. You need to be more long sighted.” – Simon

    That was the position since partition. Unless the SDLP were around back then (and I don’t think so), what has that got to do with them? The only change they added to it – and it is a change for the worse – is accepting that it is wholly legitimate that that veto is legitimate – and, of course, accepting that the PoC shuld be exercised by plebicite rather than parliment (you might find that it is a lot easier to get parliment to agree to constitutional change than it ever is to get the people to agree to it).

    “In the 1970s when the IRA was killing everyone, there were 30,000 troops stationed here. Because of the peace process, there are now just 5,000 and the majority of them are only doing training here for service in Afghanistan/Iraq. This number will keep going down, but it sounds like you’d prefer them patrolling the streets and fighting the IRA once again. – Simon

    And the point is? Violence means more soldiers? Gee, thanks for that, Einstein. Acknowledging that the British army is in NI is not quite the same thing as Durkan saying that the presence of the British army, and British sovereignty, should not be an affront to those who are Irish. It is an affront, and it should remain an affront until they are gone, and British sovereignty along with it. That, of course, is not the actual agenda of the colonial puppets. On the contrary, the agenda is to legitimise British sovereinty by ‘normalising’ it, and then seeking to extend it southwards.

    “Given that the people voted to accept the principle of consent and to reject violence,Durkan was right ,and Dave I respectfully suggest you are wrong in your somewhat twisted logic.” – Danny O’Connor

    I would submit that the twisted logic resides with those think that declaring that something is legitimate is the same thing as declaring that it is illegitimate.

    How exactly are you going to campaign to change something that you have declared to be wholly legitimate? You’re not, of course, because once you have declared it so, you only have the option of extending what you have already accepted.

    So, your only hope now of a united Ireland is that you convince the citizens of the Republic that British sovereignty is just as legitimate there as it is in Northern Ireland.

    Do you think those you in NI whom you are now legitimately subject to the veto of will agree to give up their veto for an Irish nation-state that is devoid of a British constitutional involvement? Think again.

    “…in case you weren’t paying attention for the past 40 years, this isn’t going to bring about a united Ireland. ” – Sammy Morse

    And in case your hysteria meant you didn’t pay attention, I didn’t say otherwise.

    “Sounds like you need a wee kleenex Dave.” – not impressed

    And I suspect that whatever argument you conjure from your deranged mind to support that bizarre claim will have more shitty holes in it than quadruplets conjoined at the head, but go for it…

  • Dave

    By the way, don’t forget folks (even if the SDLP and the Shinners want you to) that it wasn’t necessary to accept the legitimacy of British sovereignty and the Unionist Veto (the PoC) in order for nationalists politicians to hold political office in NI: they held political office before they accepted it, and, indeed, while they were bitterly opposed to it. They accepted it because that was the price demanded of the nationalist community by the unionists for the Shinners to be injected into the political process. A vulgar trade-off of fundamental national rights for the selfish gain of a group of thugs, so to speak.

  • A big, contentious question I know and slightly off-topic but basically, the Real IRA are looking forward to another f#ck-up from the Brits – that’s the only way Republicanism has ever been able to dig into the groundswell of public opinion. They want to step up the level of violence so that soldiers are forced back onto the streets and the rest will take care of itself.

    Pretty much.

  • clonakilty

    Re Durkan; the presence of British Troops plus British sovereignty over the 6 counties is an affront to me and to many people I know.
    The idea that RIRA (and now Continuity) actions will force Brit soldiers back on the streets equates to the SDLP saying in years past that it was the IRA’S fault that British troops were here. In reality they are here because of that same British Sovereignty over 6 Irish counties which makes us all part of their ugly wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. Adams and McGuinness can cry all they like about ‘counterproductivity’ but the fact remains that the GFA left overall decision making to the British.

  • danielmoran

    unionists, especially of the dup variety are in their comfort zone with these killings. jim moylineaux[former uup ‘leader[1979-1995] let the cat out of the bag in ’94 when he said ‘this ira ceasefire is the most destabilising thing for the union in a long time’ donaldson and the others will be queueing up to go on tv to call for more visible army presence in nationalist areas. mind you, i wasn’t expecting craigavon to be the site of the latest attack.

  • deirdre nelson

    danielmoran
    “unionists, especially of the dup variety are in their comfort zone with these killings.”
    Not really. I’m a DUP member and I’m absolutely nowhere near my comfort zone. The events of the past few days are horrendous and I had hoped that they were behind us. I have been HUGELY impressed with the leadership shown by the various party leaders and I have been heartened by their response to this lunacy. Only the TUV (or dissident unionists) have been out of step. Unfortunately I had to listen to a couple of them last night and I believe they would feel vindicated if we went back to the chaos and horrors of the Troubles.
    I believe that devolution is the best way forward and I suppport the Assembly and Executive in their efforts to move forward.
    Please stop confusing the DUP and UUP with the TUV and hardliners-we’re not the same.

  • dub

    Well said Deirdre.

  • It was Sammy Mc Nally what done it

    Deirdre,

    it is very easy at the moment to confuse the UU with the TUV based on Wee Reggie reckless remarks about police and justice in the assembly yesterday.

  • danielmoran

    to deirdre nelson…my apologies, i was referring there to certain dup figures, i don’t suggest all unionist, or even all dup voters are of this view.

  • deirdre nelson

    Daniel- apology accepted.
    sammy- I know what you mean about wee reg.
    dub-ta

  • danielmoran

    mick. watching martin mcguiness last night talking about traitors, it’s difficult, even for a nationalist like myself not to be asking, ‘so, if it’s treachery,,for a new ira to do this, why not, in 1970, for you and addams, likewise. Also, would the mcguiness of 1970 not call the mcguiness of ’07 a traitor? after all, marty can hardly claim he joined up back then with the aim of sitting with paisley’s rabble 40 yaears on in the reviled stormont. WHAT GOES AROUND COMES AROUND.

  • Conchuir O Fearain

    Wel there goes Davy Simpson agian, even when mainstream republicans ally with im and his people, he still gets a dig in. I find it hard to understand how Sinn Fein can put up with some Unionists, sometimes.

  • danielmoran

    conchuir. msg 9….. have to agree, especially dup ones. i believe the bbc are making a documentary [for tv] to mark 40th anniversary of the start of the troubles. It should be interesting to watch how that is edited, but suggesting that 1969 was the start of the conflict is not promising from a nationalist view.
    still it should bring the usual suspects out of the woodwork from the unionist side, when they see how the period from partition to 1968 is covered.

  • Conchuir O Fearain

    Thanks daniel i think your the first person ever to side with me on Slugger.lol

    Also its highly unlikley that will be covered at all, if it is, it will be thirty seconds and would probably go somthing like “Between partition and 1968 Unionists were all peacefull people, until those papists came and said they wanted good houses, then the unionists said ok, coz they are great people.” I may, however, be wrong?!

    One thing is for sure though, “Our Sammy” will be giving dogs abuse about everyone and anyone!

  • danielmoran

    to conchuir… of course it depends on whether it’s the bbc in london or the belfast outpost which is making the doc. we know from ormeau avenue coverage of the loyalist strike back in ’74 what to expect from that source. as for the dup, well of two events that i remember 1971 for [internment and the creation of the dup] it’s a close run thing which of them had the most disastrous impact on the north’s future history.