Paisley: SDLP would have held us to account for the things we have done…

Interesting new viral technique from the SDLP. They’ve clipped Ian Junior waxing on Hearts and Minds last night about what a decent fight the SDLP would have put up inside the Executive, compared to Sinn Fein. Judging from the bad tempered exchanges in the Assembly between his party and the SDLP’s there’s probably more than a grain of truth to that than the blatantly obvious propagandist point Mr Paisley was trying to make. It looks like there’s a bit of heat building up inside the Polit-bureau…

  • Ulsters not Irish

    58 seconds?…..that’s scraping the barrel

  • Mick

    A little begrudged and a little understated but your angle on this is welcome. Clearly, even a blind man can see that the SDLP have been the bigger hitter when it comes to the DUP.

    In fact it’s embarrassing being a Nationalist when Sinn Fein say that they’re Nationalists and at the same time throw in the towel so meekly on so many issues.

    It just goes to show that those who use the gun are in fact trying to punch hard behind a soft interior, and are in reality so weakened by their adherence to the gun that what you get when they enter politics is inferior goods. The quality of Sinn Fein reps is very poor with a few exceptions. The reverse is true of the SDLP.

  • “the Polit-bureau”

    le petit bureau de change – non 😉

  • DC

    It was so contrived that it was embarrassing and this from a party that campaigned once to stop the DUP now it relies on it for promo.

    Mind you Paisley Jnr was in fine little squeaky patronising voice mode.

    For once Malachy summed that stupid lot up.

    For once too both *nationally* and indeed regionally politics as proposed by those challenging for votes seems so out of touch with the people or that the people can discern from them that they are neither reformist or progressivists but just silly careerists.

    End of.

  • DC

    Try and say something specific. We all know that you’re seething at the gills.

  • joeCanuck

    Things they have DONE?

    When did that happen? Why didn’t anyone tell me?

  • CS Parnell

    DC,

    Get real. the SDLP said you should vote for them to stop the DUP. People voted for SF instead and what did they get – a party that has no principles and is only interested in power.

    That is why the DUP walk all over them.

    As for careerism – surely careerists join the people with power. I bet SF is full of truciteers these days.

  • dunreavynomore

    CS Parnell

    “I bet Sinn Féin is full of trucileers these days..”
    Exactly.

  • RH

    Can someone please clarify when someone refers to “stoops” are they refering to the SDLP or SF. As from where I can see it there is only one stoop party about here – no maze stadium, education in total confusion,no Irish Language Act, Tyrone health service in tatters, not to mention the devolved policing and justice fiasco.

  • RH

    Be careful what you suggest. Last time we had this kind of outburst, we had a five month huff from SF, when they threatened the DUP and the institutions. The DUP must have been shaking in their boots.

  • DC

    The SDLP grinned while the DUP used the SDLP while the SDLP used the DUP.

    Hardly stopping the DUP and it was so false and Paisley was in patronising form which was all repugnant, it was so cheesey ihat at

    Others might like it but it was juvenile stuff for me.

    was just sick.

  • DC

    The SDLP grinned while the DUP used the SDLP while the SDLP used the smirking DUP.

    Hardly stopping the DUP and it was so false and Paisley was in patronising form which was all repugnant, it was so cheesey that it was just sick.

    Others might like it but it was juvenile PR quid pro quo stuff for me.

  • veritas

    the sooner mainland and southern parties stand here the better…

    we need a total clear out..

  • Expenses

    The SDLP is dead in the water. Next election will finish them

  • fin

    just watched the whole show on iPlayer, lovely moment at about 5:40 in when Ian is reminded he had to step down as a minister, he looked very uncomfortable

  • Faloon

    Poor Daithi completely out of his depth, will he be rescued like Catriona and have to use Big John O’Dowd for his tv interviews

  • Expenses

    The SDLP is dead in the water. Next election will finish them

    Just depends on how much damage the DUP plan to do to SF. Hopefully these two vulgar non-co-operating powersharers will wreck each other before an election and leave the way open for the SDLP to take the reins again.

    But your comment just shows how sore the Shinners have taken this outburst from the son of a beast.

  • Expenses

    John O’Connell

    You said regarding my comment – “Just depends on how much damage the DUP plan to do to SF. Hopefully these two vulgar non-co-operating powersharers will wreck each other before an election and leave the way open for the SDLP to take the reins again. But your comment just shows how sore the Shinners have taken this outburst from the son of a beast.”

    It is funny that people like you guess who or what I am. I have never voted for Sinn Fein in my life. But then again I bet you don’t.
    The SDLP don’t know how to take the lead. The group of teachers, barristers and white collar professionals still haven’t moved out of 1998. People vote by their bigotry and will either go green – Sinn Fein or orange – DUP

  • Cuchlar

    Exactly when did the suspension of disbelief kick in? A political party says that they fear another- of course they don’t! That there are so many that have taken SDLP and DUP at their word is astonishing. Check how many times the SDLP have voted with DUP against SF, as a one-time voter of SDLP they are craven, once I checked their record. News just in, Labour says that they wish they had a fight against Liberals! This is nonsense

  • Expenses

    It is funny that people like you guess who or what I am.

    I would say that you’re a little too self-indulgent to vote for the SDLP and maybe even for Sinn Fein. You sound self-absorbed so I wouldn’t pay much heed to your comment.

    Cuchlar

    That there are so many that have taken SDLP and DUP at their word is astonishing.

    That’s just wishful thinking. Everybody knows that Ian Paisley Junior acts like a spoiled child and will tell uncomfortable truths the way he sees them and not necessarily in the interests of his party. This is a very bad day for Sinn Fein.

  • Paul Kielty

    Satan help us!!( just exercising my right to religious freedom, john O’connell)
    Surely it is time to wrap this whole charade up for good? The continuing obscene waste of tax-payers money, especially at this time, is a sad joke. Most of them think they are in some school debating club, having a laugh, instead of at least appearing to be seriously minded. Throw them ALL out on to the dole queue right now, they are not fit for purpose. Joint authority is the only salvation from this embarressment!!

  • Cuchlar

    In what way is it bad for SF? All I see is a situation whereby the DUP are increasingly sounding like the the outer fringes of any sound of political life (no to gays, global warming, migrants! no, no, no!) You can’t actually work like that politically, and when SDLP start doing their ‘no,no’ stuff too, I think I might actually vote SF or UU next time round

  • Expenses

    John O’Connell

    You said regarding me –

    I would say that you’re a little too self-indulgent to vote for the SDLP and maybe even for Sinn Fein. You sound self-absorbed so I wouldn’t pay much heed to your comment.

    What a joke. You can’t handle anybody arguing your point so you sulk. Wally

  • fin

    When Blair was in the commons for his lat day as PM, Cameron made a speak praising his tenure, did he mean it, of course not, he was having a pop at Brown, and Ian jnr was just attempting a crude copy. I think Ian messed up when he said the DUP got the Victims Commissioners they wanted, how long before jumps on that and asks him to defend appointing the sister of a volunteer

  • Expenses

    What a joke. You can’t handle anybody arguing your point so you sulk. Wally

    What age are you? I guess around 16. You’re way out of your league.

  • Why Ian Paisley is the false prophet!

    The second beast is Ian Paisley who, as a religious preacher, represents religious extremism. The second beast is coincidentally called ‘the false prophet’ (Rev 19:20), making him a flawed part of the Old Testament tradition of prophets.

    ‘He had two horns like a lamb, but he spoke like a dragon,’ (Rev 13:11). Paisley is a religious preacher like the Lamb, or Jesus, but he has a roaring voice (akin to what the mythical creature, the dragon, would sound like, some would say). This is a significant coincidence.

    Again, Ian Paisley’s name coincidentally comes out at 666 on my numeric alphabet (see Appendix 1) which makes the alphabet all the more credible in that there are coincidentally two beasts in the Book of Revelation and the number of the beast is 666.

    Another prophecy was fulfilled at the reconvening of Stormont on May 8th 2007 with Ian Paisley being elected First Minister and Gerry Adams decided not to be part of the government: “[The second beast, i.e. Paisley] exercised all the authority of the first beast [i.e. Adams] on his behalf [i.e. because Adams remained outside government], and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed [Adams was shot and seriously wounded in 1984]” (Rev 13:12).

    “By remaining outside government, Adams has shrewdly ensured that his spirit remains to dominate proceedings. Paisley will govern with one eye on keeping Adams happy under government by the lowest common denominator (i.e. he exercised all the authority of the first beast on his behalf).”

    Paisley’s often-heard oratory contains considerable elements of bigotry, even hate, against his opponents, rather than forgiveness and love. He has regularly called for an eye for an eye, in dealing with those who ‘sin’ against his community.

    Much of the value system of the Bible-reading Unionists comes from the Old Testament (OT). For example, their beliefs in a (divinely-ordained) nation state, in a God of Judgement, and in Hell, Fire and Brimstone have their origins in the OT. When a unionist quotes the Bible, he almost always is referring to the OT.

    The emphasis of Ulster Protestants on the message of the OT is well documented, and their contribution to capitalism is widely accepted. Ian Paisley may then be said to come from an Old Testament background.

    Therefore, one must ask the question: is Ian Paisley a false prophet? The answer can only be “yes”, contrary to what Ian Paisley has made his reputation on – saying “No”.

  • Expenses

    John O’Connell,

    Again you are making wrong presumptions. You are starting to embarrass yourself.

  • Expenses

    Why ever would I be embarrassed? You are totally self-absorbed, thinking that you’re playing a cute game of hiding the truth from everyone when you are fooling nobody.

  • Expenses

    John,

    Calm down mate. What truth am I hiding? Who am I fooling?

  • Tiberius25

    Why Ian Paisley is the false prophet!

    The second beast is Ian Paisley who, as a religious preacher, represents religious extremism. The second beast is coincidentally called ‘the false prophet’ (Rev 19:20), making him a flawed part of the Old Testament tradition of prophets.

    Posted by John O’Connell on Feb 13, 2009 @ 10:01 PM

    Are u having a laugh or on the lurgan champagne?

  • Quagmire

    This place is an absolute joke! Paisley back to the fore after his shady dealings with Mr Sweeney, Wilson’s comments on climate change and EU workers, Mrs Robinson intervention on Gays and Lesbians. WTF like!!! We are the laughing stock of the world thanks to the 17th Century Flat Earth Society aka DUP. Paisley Jr needs to grow up. The man is nearly 50 and yet he still behaves like a 12 year old. Why do Unionists continue to vote for these people? Really really frightening to be honest. When I think of a DUP voter all I see is a mix between the Hills have eyes and Deliverance!! Strike up the banjo boys!!

  • Tiberius25

    I refer you to Quagmire’s comments. There can be no joke when it comes to the DUP. But I am having a laugh in the sense that you, and those like you, can’t see the forest for the trees.

    Religion is the reason that the DUP seem so obtuse. Ian Paisley is the reason for that religiosity.

    Expenses

    I wish I was a cute hoor like you, hi.

  • veritas

    bring on the total separation of church and state in fact ban all religion especially the hypocritical fundamentalists…

    I`m a believer in Judaism, will I burn…

  • Veritas

    Why are you asking me? Would you really want to know my opinion? Would you accept it?

    I still feel those nails in my feet.

  • Cuchlar

    John, you really are a funny bastard! Talk about wind up merchant…

  • JohnDoc

    Oh my God! The DUP says vote for the SDLP so the SDLP are now saying that the nationalist electorate should listen to Ian Paisley Junior!

    I think SF should put it up on their website, “Don’t put the SDLP into government because the DUP want them there!”

    Mckays right about one thing that paisley mentioned on his list, the new councils will be equality-proofed because of SF negotiating. The SDLP really are scraping the bottom of the barrel here!

  • Sinn Fein attacked the UUP Minister for withdrawing front-line ambulances and the DUP for the incompetence of Sammy Wilson and Gregory’s decision to scupper 6000 jobs at the Maze. The SDLP? Attack Sinn Fein, attack Sinn Fein, attack Sinn Fein. Followed by a commendation from Ian Paisley Junior. The result? Less votes for the SDLP, when will they ever learn that attacking Sinn Fein all the time just damages them further. Since the old guard left the arrogance of the new leadership has just alienated much of their original electoral base.

    Dathi could have just lashed out at Attwood after all that condescending talk, by continuing to focus on the DUP and letting IPJ and AA continue their double act it exposed just how cosy the SDLP and DUP are with each other. By placing that clip on their website they’ve shown just how naieve they really are. The DUP want nationalists to vote SDLP so that Sinn Fein won’t top the poll in June – not because the SDLP will provide a better oppositon – Duh!

  • fin

    people haven’t commented on IPJ’s list of victories over SF, funding for the OO and Ulster-Scots, predicting that the new councils favour unionists in the West, and bizairely more rights for unionists in the West (which I don’t understand) and claiming victory in selecting the Victims Commissioners (equally strange) but all in all zero sum politics of zero importance except to a minority. Fair play to SF for rising above it, I agree with ex-SDLP it will lose them votes, even more so by putting the clip on the web, idiots.

    Still think Ians reaction when his ministerial resignation was mentioned was v funny

  • Good point Fin, looking at IPJ’s ‘victories’ over Sf again:

    – Funding for OO & Ulster Scots (Orange Order funding secured was through Westminster rather than Assembly, Ulster-Scots funding was there before Gregory came in and now under Gregory we have a DUP Minister recognising the GAA and continuing Irish language funding. More needed on Irish language of course but hardly a DUP victory)

    – New Councils favour unionists in the West (SF has secured equality safeguards in the new councils, ensuring that the DUP abuses of the past cannot be repeated, again hardly a DUP victory)

    – Victory in appointing Victims Commissioners (The sister of an IRA man becoming a Victims Commissioner is a victory for the DUP? Did you hear that one Jim?!)

    – Saved Grammar Schools (Grammar schools are staring into the abyss as those that are going to go ahead without departmental support face legal challenges left, right and centre, the majority of schools will follow Ruane’s guidelines. The Education system will only become disjointed if a handful of schools choose to retain testing – the blame being with them not the Minister)

    I’m actually glad the SDLP have this on their site, it shows that SF are holding the DUP to account and securing victories for those in favour of equality in this society.

  • CS Parnell

    JimBob, what’s the weather like on your planet and are you still confident will have a 32 county republic by Easter 2016?

  • Damian O’Loan

    I have no doubt that in endorsing the SDLP, Paisley Jr is seeking to ensure that SF will benefit at the polls.

    Voters can judge that fact for themselves, and equally judge the effectiveness of their representatives in the Assembly.

    In particular, I would cite the Financial Assistance Bill debates, available on Hansard.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Ex-SDLP voter:

    The result? Less votes for the SDLP, when will they ever learn that attacking Sinn Fein all the time just damages them further. Since the old guard left the arrogance of the new leadership has just alienated much of their original electoral base.

    Don’t you think it’s possible that the electorate might hold Sinn Fein accountable for their record at Stormont ? The record in question being one of backing down to every single DUP demand. The SDLP may be a bunch of twats, but in an environment where Sinn Fein are will not, or are unable to, represent the interests of their constituents why would they not be a viable alternative ?

    From a nationalist point of view, there must be a number of serious strategic disadvantages to having Sinn Fein elected representatives. One of them is that the party can no longer engage constructively or effectively with Dublin, having alienated themselves from the Irish electorate, and also having made themselves an sworn enemy of the established Irish political parties (especially Labour who are on the rise right now, and who absolutely hate Sinn Fein).

    Secondly, there is the abstention matter. I do accept the republican argument that ordinarily, representation at Westminster means nothing. However, we are at an unusual juncture where we have a government which is becoming marginal, and where the next government will either be equally marginal, or will be operating in a hung parliament. Sinn Fein’s absence from the Commons means that Unionism can wield political clout far beyond it’s meagre origins, and they can ensure that the British government, whether it likes it or not, will have to play their way. If Sinn Fein were present in Westminster the DUP threat would be neutralized and the British would be force to compromise between nationalist and unionist positions.

    Sinn Fein might be able to recover from this if they were capable of providing effective representation at Stormont. I cannot see any examples of this.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Sinn Fein might be able to recover from this if they were capable of providing effective representation at Stormont. I cannot see any examples of this.

    Well said, CS. The importance of this matter cannot be overstated.

    …a bunch of twats…

    If being branded a bunch of twats is the price to be paid for non-violence, then so be it. Rather that, than being regarded as a bunch of imbeciles.

  • LordCraigavon

    Damian, you must be having a laugh. If IPJ is encouraging nationalists to vote Sinn Féin rather than the SDLP then the DUP would finish second in the election, which also gives Sinn Féin some momentum for the next Assembly election and if they top the poll then they take the First Minister post as well as the Justice post! Sinn Féin leaking votes to the SDLP suits the DUP, theres no way Paisley would want more SDLP votes going to Sinn Féin hence the Attwood/Paisley alliance on Hearts and Minds.

  • blinding

    How come someone that has to resign over corruption i.e. IPj does not have to keep his head down for a couple of years at least.
    Are we now so accepting of corruption that once the guilty resign one of their many positions that they can then continue on their merry way as if getting caught up in corruption is an occupational hazard.
    Did it ever occur to the guilty that they should withdraw from public office completely.

  • CS,

    Lets look at the Sinn Fein record:

    Policing & Justice – its going ahead this year, Robinson has accepted it in negotiations and the SDLP is hoping for another hiccup – i can’t see it.

    Local Government – Equality Safeguards secured in exchange for an 11 council model, Belfast will remain in the balance for the short-term but expect it to swing to nationalists/republicans within a couple of terms.

    Education – The 11+ is gone, the DUP didn’t put forward any proposals, the SDLP have done nothing more than attack the Minister for the sake of it and the pressure is beginning to turn away from the Minister and onto those grammars that choose to go down the unknown territory of self-organised exams. The majority of schools will go into an academic selection free system in less than 1 1/2 years.

    Mitchel McLaughlin has put the issue of credit unions on the Assembly agenda, McElduff has pressurised the DCAL Minister into hosting the Tyrone GAA team, Anderson and the party as a whole have been highlighting the east/west divide and expect Bain to be incorporated into the future of public sector jobs, Murphy has proven himself as an excellent efficient Minister with no hitches whatsoever, McKay succesfully exerted enough pressure to secure Ian Junior’s resignation and both John O’Dowd and Paul Maskey have had a number of successes chairing the PAC. These are only cases off the top of my head but Sinn Féin are clearly delivering.

    The DUP are that scared of the TUV they’ve become dysfunctional, fighting internally over the Maze site, Ian Junior hates Sammy, Sammy hates Ian; Paisley Senior fell from grace; for the first time ever prospectively the DUP won’t top the Euro poll; they couldn’t find a good candidate for the Euro poll and Nelson McCausland is going home early from the Assembly every day to read books about the IRA!

    When you really look back over the past 2 years I think Sinn Féin’s strategy is working out for them.

  • Comrade Stalin

    LordCraigavon:

    gives Sinn Féin some momentum for the next Assembly election and if they top the poll then they take the First Minister post as well as the Justice post!

    Firstly, this is a repetition of the line of argument already used in this thread, from a Sinn Fein sympathiser suggesting that SF’s popularity comes from somewhere other than it’s appeal in terms of it’s policies and the effectiveness of the representation it provides. Is it a common view among Sinn Fein activists that the party needs to do no work to earn votes other than to smugly satisfy themselves that the supposed mistakes of the DUP and SDLP will lead to success in their quest for dominance ?

    Secondly, whether Sinn Fein are the largest party or not, having an executive in the first place requires the consent of the DUP. That is why Sinn Fein are acceding to the DUP’s demands – because they are more afraid of the DUP pulling out than the DUP are of them pulling out. So all this vigorous wanking about SF having the justice ministry after the next election is meaningless without DUP assent. And if the DUP do give that assent, they will exact a heavy price.

    Sinn Féin leaking votes to the SDLP suits the DUP, theres no way Paisley would want more SDLP votes going to Sinn Féin hence the Attwood/Paisley alliance on Hearts and Minds.

    My attitude about Sinn Fein was always that the best way to destroy them as a viable political force would be to keep them in government and watch them fuck it up. They are so desperate to stay in power that they are alienating their hardline support base; and their effectiveness in power is so pathetic that they are alienating the middle class voters whose support they have jettisoned everything else to gain. It looks like the plan is working, and unionism is waking up to this fact.

    blinding:

    How come someone that has to resign over corruption i.e. IPj does not have to keep his head down for a couple of years at least.

    IPJ was, unfortunately, cleared by an Assembly investigating into his conduct and his media appearances in recent months are clearly part of a general plan to rebuild his reputation. I don’t think it will work, though, he’s a contemptible and unlikeable politician.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Patsy:

    Policing & Justice – its going ahead this year, Robinson has accepted it in negotiations and the SDLP is hoping for another hiccup – i can’t see it.

    Eh ? Sinn Fein fucked it up. Firstly they demanded that it be out of the way by May 2008, after sticking to the line that this was agreed at St Andrew’s. Then they backed down to that and acceded to an unspecified DUP timetable, and a further DUP concession which requires that the mechanisms agreed for appointing the government in the GFA be bypassed to ensure that no nationalist will get the Justice ministry. The only winners I can see here are the DUP, and the reason why they’re truly the winners is because they are able to make Sinn Fein sell this pathetic climbdown back to their own voters, which is what you’re trying to do right now. Congratulations. You surely must know that this deal completely sucks, so what are your real reasons for not sticking to your original demands?

    Local Government – Equality Safeguards secured in exchange for an 11 council model, Belfast will remain in the balance for the short-term but expect it to swing to nationalists/republicans within a couple of terms.

    Would you like to outline which seats nationalists are expecting to gain from non-nationalists ?

    Education – The 11+ is gone..DUP didn’t put forward any proposals .. pressure is beginning to turn away from the Minister and onto those grammars that choose to go down the unknown territory of self-organised exams.

    This is another example of the DUP making SF sell their own failure to the electorate. You have essentially privatized the grammar school system and ensured that grammars will be even less accessible to people from poorer neighbourhoods than they are right now. If you think that the public is not going to hold the education minister responsible for this fuckup, you truly do have a serious problem with believing your own PR.

    Mitchel McLaughlin has put the issue of credit unions on the Assembly agenda, McElduff has pressurised the DCAL Minister into hosting the Tyrone GAA team, Anderson and the party as a whole have been highlighting the east/west divide and expect Bain to be incorporated into the future of public sector jobs,

    I don’t know about any of this, but if it’s as truthful as the other points you made then I’ll bet you’re stretching the truth.

    Murphy has proven himself as an excellent efficient Minister with no hitches whatsoever,

    No, Murphy has shown himself to be a minister incapable of doing anything other than repeating whatever his civil servants tell him. Two examples :

    – the E-Way guided bus proposal, a raft of bullshit that the civil servants at the DoE/DRD have been pushing for the past ten years or more. They are pushing it because they hate trams and trains, despite the positive experience in Dublin and elsewhere on this issue, and they don’t want to spend proper money on decent public transport, they’d rather spend it kissing arse by resurfacing roads that don’t need to be improved in order to please MPs and MLAs elsewhere.

    – the fiasco concerning the bridge over the Hightown Road. Murphy insisted that a bridge could not be provided, despite an alternative plan being shown to him which would have made a one-way bridge possible. As a result this community – one which is strongly supportive of Sinn Fein – had to take a large detour to get into Belfast every day for a year until the bridge works were completed. Murphy didn’t stop for one second to question his stubborn civil servants.

    Murphy is a complete waste of space as a DRD minister. His seat might as well be occupied by a blow-up doll.

    McKay succesfully exerted enough pressure to secure Ian Junior’s resignation

    You don’t think the SDLP’s complaint which resulted in an assembly commission investigation, or the heavy media coverage, had anything to do with it ? The only reason why SF didn’t do this is because they were too scared their friends in the DUP might be cross with them.

    and both John O’Dowd and Paul Maskey have had a number of successes chairing the PAC.

    Like what ?

    These are only cases off the top of my head but Sinn Féin are clearly delivering.

    Well, clearly you have a low opinion of your electorate if you believe they are stupid enough to swallow this steaming pile of crap.

  • Comrade Stalin

    cont’d

    The DUP are that scared of the TUV they’ve become dysfunctional,

    If they really believed the TUV were a threat they would pull out of the executive, which would immediately neutralize Jim Allister’s whole raison d’etre.

    ..the Maze site..

    There’s very little consensus anywhere in the country about this, but now that it has been stopped, I am not sure what Sinn Fein have to claim as a success.

    Ian Junior hates Sammy, Sammy hates Ian;

    I don’t think IPJ is popular within the DUP at all.

    When you really look back over the past 2 years I think Sinn Féin’s strategy is working out for them.

    If SF’s electorate vote them in increasing numbers in order to watch them bend over and get fucked up the arse by the DUP, then yes I completely agree with you, the strategy is clearly working. Onward to a 32-county republic!

  • Dave

    Ian Paisley Jr is aware that a growing percentage of SF voters are disappointed with that party’s performance in Stormont (seeing it as making too many concessions to the DUP and not delivering a nationalist agenda, thereby allowing a de facto return to majoritarianism within the de jure system of consociationalism that was supposed to prevent a return to a pre-1973 Stormont) and that SDLP supporters are playing on that to their own advantage by pointing out that they are better tacticians than SF so that such a lamentable situation (to nationalist voters only) would be less likely to occur if the SDLP were (returned to their ‘rightful’ position as) the largest nationalist party.

    It looks like Ian Paisley Jr wants to undermine support for SF among the nationalist community and promote support for the SDLP. Why would he want to do that? Presumably, it is because he is a sporting parliamentarian who laments the dismal quality of his opposition partner in the Executive.

    On the other hand, being the unionist equivalent of the proverbial ‘cute hoor’ with the nationalist voters also being comprised of said cute hoors, the effect of his taunting interjection will be to make the nationalists think that if SF’s partner in the Executive wants them replaced by a different nationalist party then it is most likely because SF, contrary to Paisley’s gambit, are doing a first-rate job of frustrating a unionist agenda. Ergo, the gambit will increase support for SF and decrease support for the SDLP, and that is its purpose.

  • Dave

    On the other hand, being the unionist equivalent of the proverbial ‘cute hoor’ with the nationalist voters also being comprised of said cute hoors,

    That’s just a sectarian remark. A section of the Nationalist population is so bitter that it listens to cute hoors but the population in general is not so comprised.

    In any case your arguments are facile. The fact is that the DUP crossed one over for the SDLP to nod in. They did that and they scored a goal against Sinn Fein. Whatever way you look at it that is the case.

  • Dave

    There is nothing whatsoever sectarian about that statement, Jesus. The gambit, as I outlined above, is that of a cute hoor aimed at manipulating other cute hoors.

  • veritas

    why do we have to bombarded by the outpourings of a protestant bigot…

    Is it any wonder Christianity gets a bad name.

  • Dave

    What you have in NI is a system that is based on rewarding political extremes. That was the deliberate strategy of Blair. He deployed it by doing side deals with the parties outside post-GFA with the specific purpose of encouraging electoral support for the DUP and SF over the SDLP and the UUP. Because both communities act in their own advantage, they would vote for whichever party demanded the most for its tribe and conceded the least for the other tribe. That is still the basis on which your electorate vote. A gain for the unionist community is seen as a loss for the nationalist community, and vice versa.

    That is what the cute hoor is playing on when he says that he would prefer the SDLP in power because SF have conceded too much to the DUP. He knows that the cutes hoors from the unionist community will vote for the DUP because he has implied gains, and that the cutes hoors from the nationalist community will reason that since the political system is based on tribalism that one tribe will always seek to weaken the other, never strengthen it. Ergo, they will dismiss Paisley’s lament about how weak SF is as not being based on a desire for a stronger opposition to unionism and as being based on a desire for a weaker opposition to it. They will then conclude, as I said, that “if SF’s partner in the Executive wants them replaced by a different nationalist party then it is most likely because SF, contrary to Paisley’s gambit, are doing a first-rate job of frustrating a unionist agenda.”

    That’s your system, and you all support it. Don’t shoot the messenger.

  • Dave

    I take your point about the craftiness of IPJ. But surely even a moderate SF voter will know that he did it because he wanted to swing votes away from SF in the European election, not because he thinks that SF have done well in Stormont.

    Sinn Fein have been a disaster in Stormont.

  • Fact is SF are not delivering for nationalism in government. For starters they have now been in government with the DUP for longer then the previous executive ran yet have produced only a fraction of what the first executive did either in legislative or investment terms.

    To date the record reads one total failure in education and a series of british government bail outs in Regional Development to prevent us having to pay water charges. The programme for government would have made Thatcher proud and the budget is desperately in need of review but SF seem happy with both.

    Just to compound the problem they are stuck at 8% in the polls south of the border and are getting no bounce out of the governments difficulties when the other opposition parties are.

  • Expenses

    What political party has delivered in the Assembly? Simple answer is nothing

  • frustrated democrat

    IJP’s remarks have nothing to do with SF or the SDLP. They are intended for the extreme unionist electorate, he is suggesting that the DUP have completely neutralised SF and that they are, due to the DUP, ineffective.

    Shows how much afraid they are of the TUV taking a large slice of their old vote.

  • Expenses

    I don’t think Jim Allister will figure at the next election. He will get some votes but from what I have been told even by his own people they will be lucky to scrap a seat from Diane Dodds or Bairbre DeBruin

  • Silly

    I hope Jim Allister doesn’t get elected. I don’t want to have to listen to another 5 years of dribble, in factual information and that croaky voice

  • JD

    Dear dear dear, this is the death throws of party on the way out, putting the laughable Ian Paisley Jnr on your website to attempt validate your flawed argument is an example of why the SDLP need to rethink where they are going and tell the Attwoods to take their strategy and bangle it.

  • frustrated democrat

    The TUV can only take votes from the DUP, therefore the only question is how many, not can they be elected.

    If they get enough they can continue and damage the DUP in Westminister and Assembly elections, if not they will disappear.

    I suspect if they can 7+% they will continue, much under 5% oblivion.

  • Dave

    “But surely even a moderate SF voter will know that he did it because he wanted to swing votes away from SF in the European election, not because he thinks that SF have done well in Stormont.”

    I don’t think that Paisley believes that his criticism of SF will lose them any votes. In fact, the opposite is the case. He didn’t mention the EU elections, and he focused specifically on local government.

    The SDLP should not regard this ‘endorsement’ of them from Paisley as likely to win them votes from the nationalist community. Voters see politics as a zero-sum game where the opposition want a weaker team to play against and not a stronger one, so putting this on their website is a mistake. Taking this at face-value will lose votes and prop-up the cosy DUP-SF cartel, as it is designed to do.

    “Sinn Fein have been a disaster in Stormont.”

    Not really, since Stormont only exists as a key part of the well-paid (and safer) alternative that was offered to violent murder gangs. Did anyone try to benchmark it or mention any targets or what the KPIs are? As far as the parties are concerned, its success is measured by the number of seats they hold. Unless the voters define some core economic and social objectives and judge the parties by how well they achieve them rather than indulge them in risible bun fights over language acts or sports grounds, etc, then the entire edifice will disappear up its own back passage in due course – and good riddance to it.

  • Dave

    In short (as I can do short posts): Paisley thinks the SDLP are the more capable nationalist party of the two (and they are), but the voters won’t take that statement at face value – and Paisley knows that.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Dave, the thing is that – in a parliamentary setting – the SDLP are better tacticians than SF are. I don’t care for them, but they know a great deal more about how to use what little influence they have in Stormont to get things done than SF do. It’s probably got a lot to do with the fact that they have experience of being in a parliament so they know how to work it. SF’s abstentionism means that they don’t.

    SF’s strategy at the minute appears to be not to do anything that might annoy the DUP. They’re adopting that strategy because, for one reason or another, they haven’t figured out a way to leverage the DUP to get what they want, and the fact that they are part of the IRA is a real achilles heel.

    In terms of how well this will or will not influence nationalists, I think it’s hard to say. No matter what Paisley says, surely the truth of the matter is that nationalist voters want to see Sinn Fein delivering. SF have been doing that very effectively up until the point where the Assembly was reinstated and the new Executive appointed. Since then, they have collapsed into a heap of shite on a range of issues – their hobby horses (Irish language, the Maze, academic selection) and also the serious issue of anti-social behaviour in areas like West Belfast, where they are seen as weak having failed to deliver policing and justice powers. The grumblings from the Irish language community and the local Andytown media are getting louder. It’s hard for me to get the impression that all is well.

  • Expenses

    Comrade Stalin

    You said “the thing is that – in a parliamentary setting – the SDLP are better tacticians than SF are.”

    That is a strange statement in my opinion. The SDDP have 3 MP’s compared to Sinn Fein’s 5. I think that says that Sinn Fein is better tacticians than Sinn Fein. SDLP have Mark Durkan who is going to have to work hard to save his seat, Alasdair McDonnell who will lose his back to unionism and Eddie McGrady who will lose his to Catriona Ruane. On Sinn Fein side Gerry Adams will win, Pat Doherty will win, Michelle Gildernew might, Martin McGuinness will win and Conor Murphy will win.

  • Quagmire

    “Fact is SF are not delivering for nationalism in government.” Posted by Conall McDevitt on Feb 14, 2009 @ 03:13 PM

    What do you suggest nationalists do then Conall? Vote for the “post nationalist” SDLP? The same party that wants to end power sharing in favour of voluntary coalition/Unionist majority (mis)rule?

    “Just to compound the problem they are stuck at 8% in the polls south of the border and are getting no bounce out of the governments difficulties when the other opposition parties are.”
    Posted by Conall McDevitt on Feb 14, 2009 @ 03:13 PM

    At least they participate in politics south of the border. The SDLP are only a wee six county regional party. There is every chance that SF could form part of the next govt in the south. A FG/Lab/SF coalition is not out of the question. Their percentage of the vote has gone up at every election and the poll that you speak of shows a decrease in both the FF and FG vote, while SF increased by 1%. The real winners of course were Labour, but the fact that the SF vote has stayed solid whilst the two main partys have faltered is surely a positive, especially when seen in the light of the dismal amount of air time afforded to SF by the so called national broadcaster. Section 31 is still alive and well in the banana republic!

  • Support for Sinn Fein at the latest poll was 9%!
    The smell of desperation from the sdlp is palpable. It is their lashing out at the end scenario. Their present co-founding of a pro-unionist front is lamentable. Please at least try to to leave the stage gracefully

  • Comrade Stalin

    Expenses:

    That is a strange statement in my opinion. The SDDP have 3 MP’s compared to Sinn Fein’s 5. I think that says that Sinn Fein is better tacticians than Sinn Fein.

    Bit of a a reading comprehension problem as well. I said parliamentary tacticians, and SF’s abstentionism means that they haven’t a baldy on this count.

    On Sinn Fein side Gerry Adams will win, Pat Doherty will win, Michelle Gildernew might, Martin McGuinness will win and Conor Murphy will win.

    You obviously think that Sinn Fein’s electorate are stupid enough to re-endorse that failed ministerial and leadership team who have delivered nothing except concessions to the DUP ? It wouldn’t be for me to say, of course.

    Quagmire:

    What do you suggest nationalists do then Conall? Vote for the “post nationalist” SDLP? The same party that wants to end power sharing in favour of voluntary coalition/Unionist majority (mis)rule?

    No, we need a weighted majority coalition so that we can throw SF’s incompetent ministers out. Note that I said weighted, which means that the unionists (and indeed nationalists) can’t do anything by themselves. The current arrangements don’t promote a cohesive, agreed government, indeed they work against it.

    Anyway, with SF behaving like the DUP’s bitch, I don’t see what the difference is between what we have now and unionist majority misrule. The unionists are calling the shots because SF are too weak to stop them, and that situation sucks balls.

    And it’s not like you’re against majority rule. Earlier in this thread you guys were wanking yourselves into a sweaty mass at the prospect of a nationalist majority on Belfast City Council. If Limavady is anything to go by, I imagine majoritarianism isn’t something you have a problem with, as long as it isn’t Prods.

  • Comrade Stalin

    SDLP have Mark Durkan who is going to have to work hard to save his seat, Alasdair McDonnell who will lose his back to unionism and Eddie McGrady who will lose his to Catriona Ruane.

    If the SDLP have any sense, they will run on an “don’t vote for abstentionist double-jobbing MPs, as they cause unionists to rule the roost unchecked in Westminster” ticket. Sinn Fein voters may come to realize that the assembly can be pretty effectively tied up without effective support from London.

  • Expenses

    Comrade Stalin –

    Yes my love Sinn Fein do not sit their bums in Parliament but they have 5 seats. That is 2 more than SDLP. Margaret Ritchie said to Sinn Fein a couple of weeks ago at her conference that Sinn Fein should take their seats in Parliament or stop complaining. How many years has it taken SDLP to work that out?

  • dunreavynomore

    quagmire
    since S.F. have morphed into a nationalist party what party can a republican now vote for?

  • Comrade Stalin

    Yes my love Sinn Fein do not sit their bums in Parliament but they have 5 seats. That is 2 more than SDLP. Margaret Ritchie said to Sinn Fein a couple of weeks ago at her conference that Sinn Fein should take their seats in Parliament or stop complaining. How many years has it taken SDLP to work that out?

    What are you waffling about ? My point is that Sinn Fein are not skilled in parliamentary tactics, which is not surprising considering they’ve never sat in a parliament before (other than the Dail). What’s all this bollocks about what seats they have ? That’s nothing to do with it.

  • Expenses

    Argument has gone pear shape has it comrade?

  • PaddyReilly

    Comrade

    I perceive a certain inconsistency in your arguments. Recently you said:-

    Earlier in this thread you guys were wanking yourselves into a sweaty mass at the prospect of a nationalist majority on Belfast City Council.

    And previously it was:-

    If SF’s electorate vote them in increasing numbers in order to watch them bend over and get fucked up the arse by the DUP

    Now, muting your somewhat indecorous metaphors slightly, what you are saying is that SF has been severely disadvantaged vis-à-vis the DUP. The reason for this disadvantage is that SF, or even Nationalists, or even non-Unionists, do not have a majority in Stormont. Obviously this situation will improve as Unionists lose their majorities in the various governing bodies.

    A Nationalist majority in Belfast could only improve this situation.

    So you are both mocking Nationalist voters for not having a majority and criticising them for aspiring to have one. This may be how thing look from the Alliance Party, but it is not consistent.

  • Dave

    “Dave, the thing is that – in a parliamentary setting – the SDLP are better tacticians than SF are.” – Comrade Stalin

    I haven’t disputed that, agreeing that they “are the more capable nationalist party of the two.” Unfortunately, they’re not the better party of the two when it comes to ‘an electioneering setting.’ I think that putting Paisley’s comment on their website as an endorsement of them is an example of that poor electioneering. But I’m could be reading too much into it. I find it increasingly difficult to fathom the underlying dynamics within northern nationalism because they are shifting to a pro-NI and anti-UI agenda within the context of the GFA faster than I expected.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Expenses:

    Argument has gone pear shape has it comrade?

    An argument is where two people present opposing views on the same subject. You’re busy presenting what you think is an opposing view on a different subject.

    Paddy:

    what you are saying is that SF has been severely disadvantaged vis-à-vis the DUP.

    I’m saying that the DUP have them under their thumb.

    The reason for this disadvantage is that SF, or even Nationalists, or even non-Unionists, do not have a majority in Stormont.

    No, the reason for it is because Sinn Fein are weak and strategically inept.

    So you are both mocking Nationalist voters for not having a majority and criticising them for aspiring to have one. This may be how thing look from the Alliance Party, but it is not consistent.

    No, you made all that up. The “aspiring to be a majority” thing is something that doesn’t surprise me; I’ve heard all my life saying “just wait until we’re the majority, then we’ll get our way”. My point ? That nationalists are the same as unionists.

    And I’m not criticizing them for not having a majority; I’m criticizing them for being ineffective. The issue of academic selection could have been sorted out much more satisfactorily if it had been handled more carefully. Note how the SDLP/Margaret Ritchie manages to win concessions for her department despite her party being smaller than Sinn Fein.

    Dave, I agree that it doesn’t smell like a good idea to have DUP praise on the SDLP website.

  • PaddyReilly

    I’m not criticizing them for not having a majority; I’m criticizing them for being ineffective.

    BS, I’m afraid. Sinn Fein are ineffective inasmuch as they are not a majority and cannot even summon up a Nationalist majority. Moreover the DUP consistently present themselves as effective to their electorate to the extent that they have frustrated SF’s initiatives, whether they are inherently wrong or not.

    SF have done quite as well as could be expected with the resources they have. But it should always be remembered that nothing that SF does successfully stems solely from a SF initiative: it always requires the consent of the SDLP to get through.

    I’m not sure why you feel entitled to complain that Nationalists are the same as Unionists. I don’t think Alliance candidates go round telling people, don’t vote for us, we don’t want to get in. Alliance may have less monopolist tendencies than the combined Unionist and Nationalist camps, but this is only because very few people vote for them.

    The Nationalist Majoritarian view is, IMHO, better than the Unionist one because Nationalism does not involve gerrymandering and does not need discrimination to maintain it.

  • Comrade Stalin

    BS, I’m afraid. Sinn Fein are ineffective inasmuch as they are not a majority

    This argument falls flat on it’s face straight off. Like I said quite clearly already, SF’s crapness is nothing to do with the fact it is a minority. This is self-evident; Margaret Ritchie is effective and there’s only one of her party in the executive.

    The end conclusion of your argument that a minority cannot be effective in a powersharing government is that powersharing cannot happen.

    and cannot even summon up a Nationalist majority.

    Eh ? Sinn Fein have a nationalist majority which controls the outcome of all cross-community votes (ie the important ones) in the Assembly. The DUP and SF by themselves decide which cross-community votes in the Assembly stand or fall. In reality, the DUP decides and SF go along with it because they haven’t worked out how to trade with the DUP yet.

    Moreover the DUP consistently present themselves as effective to their electorate to the extent that they have frustrated SF’s initiatives, whether they are inherently wrong or not.

    That’s nothing to do with SF being a minority. Sinn Fein set themselves up for this fall by failing to understand that powersharing is not power division, and they promised a whole load of shit to their electorate that they could never deliver without the DUP’s consent. They talked of “putting manners” on people. It’s not surprising that if you go into government with that sort of arrogant attitude that you’re going to take over the place, people will use the opportunity to demonstrate just how limited your powers are.

    SF have done quite as well as could be expected with the resources they have.

    If by “resources” you mean their pathetic selection of crappy, unimaginative ministers, then yes, I agree.

    But it should always be remembered that nothing that SF does successfully stems solely from a SF initiative: it always requires the consent of the SDLP to get through.

    OK, I think we have by now established that you are arguing from the point of knowing fuck all about the arithmetic in the NI Assembly.

    I’m not sure why you feel entitled to complain that Nationalists are the same as Unionists.

    Because nationalists are constantly going on about the need to share power and promote equality, whereas unionists are at least barely bother to hide their bigotry, and I’m sure I detected a whiff of that earlier in the thread.

    I don’t think Alliance candidates go round telling people, don’t vote for us, we don’t want to get in.

    I don’t know where you’re going with that strawman.

    Alliance may have less monopolist tendencies than the combined Unionist and Nationalist camps, but this is only because very few people vote for them.

    Which is to do with .. what exactly ?

  • Comrade Stalin

    The Nationalist Majoritarian view is, IMHO, better than the Unionist one because Nationalism does not involve gerrymandering and does not need discrimination to maintain it.

    This is the sort of rubbish I’m talking about. Gerrymandering isn’t a prerequisite for bigotry, prejudice and exclusion, and the Unionist majoritarian government managed to do lots of damage without having to gerrymander a thing.

  • PaddyReilly

    Comrade, I’m afraid your analysis is entirely partisan and self-serving. Why should we believe an Alliance politician who says SF are crap? And what does this faecal metaphor achieve? Why do the electorate give five times as many votes to SF as to Alliance? If the smaller parties have a monopoly of truth and talent, should we not be looking to Rainbow Bob as the New Messiah?

    I will give you an example of the wisdom of Alliance. The facts of 6 county demography are that, given a free vote of the whole area, what was originally a Unionist majority region will for a consideral number of years return a vote which gives the balance of power to the centre.

    Alliance had a crucial role in bringing about the GFA settlement. So did they insist on an arrangement which allows them to hold the balance of power, as they do, for example, on Belfast City Council? No, they happily signed up for one which which ensures only the big boys get a look in. Brilliant. Their worst enemies could not do worse for them than they did for themselves.

    knowing fuck all about the arithmetic in the NI Assembly.

    In this instance I was talking about local government, not the Assembly.

    the Unionist majoritarian government managed to do lots of damage without having to gerrymander a thing.

    NI is a a gerrymander full stop. You don’t need a secondary gerrymander to improve on the first. But you do need discrimination to make sure the first one holds. Gerrymander plus discrimination ensures a violent reaction from those gerrymandered and discriminated against.

    The rebuke “If you’re so clever, why aren’t you rich” is an old and boring one. Maybe I never set out to be rich. Socrates wasn’t rich, but he was clever. But politicians necessarily set out to obtain votes. So I may, I hope, legitimately enquire, if SF are such crap why do they win so many more votes than you? And why, given that in terms of votes cast you should hold the balance of power, why do you not do so?