Trusting democracy or a fiscal waste?

Horseman notes what he sees as the utter pointlessness of the TUV forcing a bye election in an 80% nationalist constituency, after Sinn Fein councillor Sam Baker resigned his council seat for Dunmurry Cross… Just had a call from Jim Allister’s office saying they did no such thing…

Update: We have a piecemeal account of what happened. It seems the co-option did take place, but not at the official plenary session of the council scheduled for seven, but in a preliminary meeting at 6.45. It may be an odd way of doing business, but no objections were raised either by the TUV or anyone else so far as we can tell…

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  • Mark McGregor

    SF could mount an election campaign that consisted only of 5 wee lads leafleting Lagmore one evening for a few hours and win that seat by a mile. Most pointless bye election ever.

    Lets hope the TUV have the balls to run since they are determined to waste ratepayer money on this farce.

  • ABC

    I wonder will there be another Harbinson running for the TUV in this by-election?

  • kensei

    Technically, people vote for the man and not the party. In reality, people tend to vote along party lines. There are exceptions, but given it doesn’t look the case here, this is a waste of cash.

    Still, perhaps they lookign to provide a stimulus to the local economy.

  • I did say that there my story was based on “unconfirmed rumours“. Since Lisburn City Coucil are bit slow to publish the minutes of their meetings, and since no MSM picked up on the story, I was hoping for some kind of confirmation or denial.

    If this denial can be confirmed, I’ll pull my story.

  • Mick Fealty

    Sorry guys, I took Horseman’s post at face value. Now tracking down the facts of the matter…

  • Mark McGregor


    Minutes don’t become available until after the are approved and signed at the next monthly meeting – that is normal practice not being ‘a bit slow’.

    I’d suggest confirmation or denial of a story not in the MSM could easily be obtained by ringing any of the councillors and asking.

    Red faces all round. My apologies to the TUV for not checking validity before commenting.

  • Mark McGregor,

    Minutes don’t become available until after the are approved and signed at the next monthly meeting …

    Actually, that is still a ‘bit slow’. There are many ways to speed up the process – like send them out for agreement by e-mail, or put them on an extranet with a 5 day period for objections, or (for the techno-shy) making them available in the council offices for councillors to come and look at, again with a 5 day period, etc …

    A month, in this day and age, is ridiculous.

    Red faces all round.

    Not at all. It’s a blog ffs. I prefaced the story with the fact that it was an ”unconfirmed rumour”.

  • Mark McGregor


    Still being a bit difficult to get full clarity on this.

    I spoke to Cllr Matthew McDermott (SDLP) who arrived a little late for Tuesday’s meeting but said Arder Carson was sitting on the Council at that stage and voted.

    He said there was a very small attendence so the only issue he could think of is if there was a later procedural challenge on if a quorum was met for the decision.

    Mick is working on getting final clarification.

  • ??

    so the TUV agreed to the election (by co-option) of a new sinn fein councillor? why didnt they call an election and run against them? TUV/SF and unholy alliance

  • Mark McGregor

    From Cllr Heading:

    Co-option meeting was held at 6.45pm on Tuesday. Chief Exec in attendance. No objections to the cooption. Arder Carson then went to sign paperwork. Main council meeting took place at 7.00 with Arder in attendance and voting.

  • Thanks Mark for that clarification. My blog will be deleted accordingly!

  • ABC


    Absolutely! Councillor Calvert tured liberal?

  • Mick Fealty

    Beware of chancers on Slugger comment threads throwing out fake rumours Horse: This particular chance gets a ban for said offence.

  • Mick Fealty

    And a few more to follow, if you don’t pack it in!!

  • … if you don’t pack it in!!

    Who is that addressed to, Mick?

    On the more general point, it could be that Calvert objected to the earlier ‘co-option meeting’, which may or may not have been done correctly. If he had not been informed of it (a big ‘if’) then his right to object may have been denied – this may, perhaps, have been the source of the confusion. Any word from Calvert (or his party) apart from that mysterious phone call?

  • Mick Fealty

    ?? and ABC…

    As for your possibility, dig away. I’ve not found that to be the case, but given the main part of the story turned out to be a wind up, I’d stop ‘digging’ and start digging if I were you..

  • ABC

    Sorry, what did I do?

  • Mick Fealty

    winding people up… Sorry… I know it was fairly gentle, but this ‘story’ has just robbed me of a hour of my life I ‘ll not get back… Teach me to do my own research up front in future…

  • … this ‘story’ has just robbed me of a hour of my life

    No hour of your life is every ‘robbed’, Mick! You simply spent it in a different way to what you had thought, but you had contacts with people you maybe don’t often talk to. Who knows where that might lead. Often the strangest paths lead to the best (but unexpected) destinations.

    Anyhow, if we could all bill you for the hours that Slugger has ‘robbed’ us of, you’d be a poorer man!

  • ABC

    Not my fault the TUVvies are easily wond up! Do your research Fealty!

  • Mick Fealty

    I said it first ABC… Just try to find it from within yourself to find the ball every now and then…

  • ABC

    Aye right enough like the TUV posters on here do…

    I played the ball.

  • ??

    well maybe the TUVVIES can help us out, wheres half-pint when you need him. Did the TUV object to the SF cooption, yes or no. If no, why not.

  • Name

    Horseman gets it wrong again… and again… and again…

    Surely people have realised by now he isn’t a reliable commenter?

  • Mr Tumnus

    Loved the use of “bye-election” in the first post. Is that shorthand for bye-bye democracy?

  • Half Pint


    Some of us do have a life outside slugger and therefore find it difficult to pick up on every thread.

    I would have thought that any Unionist forcing a byelection in Dunmurry Cross would need their head examined.

    Strange that the DUP didn’t stand up to Sinn Fein and force the byelection if it had been in the interests of Unionism isn’t it?

    Anyway, I think the big question of the day is what is going to happen to Bob Morrow, Upper Bann DUP chaplain.

    At the Eames/Bradley launch he was caught on camera describing Gerry Adams as a victim. Is this now official DUP party policy? 1512k_stream.wmv&VideoID=31042&ArticleID=4921670

  • ABC

    Half Pint

    Hardly the big question of the day. TUV misrepresents someone. Someone incidentally who had the guts and courage to defend his community in the police whilst Jim Allister was making a packet defending criminals in court.

  • Half Pint


    How was he misrepresented? He clearly said it. I wonder what the people he served alongside make of him now. My guess, for what it is worth, is not a lot.

    That Carson guy was a real disgrace too wasn’t he? I mean, how could he make it in Unionist politics after defending all those criminals?

    Outrageous when you think of the level our forefathers were prepared to stoop!

  • ABC

    I don’t recall any cases of Carson representing terrorists. Perhaps you could correct me if I am wrong. Besides which for the vast majority of his career Carson was a prosecution barrister.

    How many terrorists did Jim represent in the courts down through the years I wonder? How much did he profit from it I wonder? Whilst Bob Morrow was out patrolling the streets in the police and burying dead colleagues murdered by terrorists what was Jim doing?

    It was clearly not meant as a defence of Gerry Adams. Don’t be so twisted.

    “I wonder what the people he served alongside make of him now”

    In my experience those who served their country in the police or the army are generally a lot less bitter than the TUV-types of this world who never donned any uniform or did anything to defend their community short of sitting in their armchairs lecturing others.

  • ??

    I would have thought that any Unionist forcing a byelection in Dunmurry Cross would need their head examined. ………

    so the TUVvies allowed SF to get re-elected without a fight, so much for the saviours of unionism, the TUVvies are running from Sinn Fein.

    Half pint how many terrorists did Jim represent?

  • Half Pint

    I for one don’t draw a distinction between terrorists and criminals. I regard terrorism as a crime. And if by defending someone in court Jim Allister can be said to have profited form the Troubles via legal work then Carson benefited from the criminality of late 1800s and early 1900s.

    I have no idea how many people Allister defended on any sort of charges. How many criminals did Carson defend?

    I’m sure you never have nor will you ever, under any circumstances, engage the services of such an immoral person as a lawyer or QC.

    But back to Bob. Was he right to describe Gerry Adams as a victim? Don’t defend the indefensible.

    The TUV didn’t fun away from fighting SF. They saved rate payers money in an election no Unionist could conceivably win by not forcing a poll.

    TUV members protest against Adams while DUP members defend him from criticism.

  • ABC

    Half Pint.

    Anyone listening to the video with an even-handed or fair mind could not have concluded that Bob Morrow was calling Gerry Adams a victim. You know that and I know it.

    As for your comparisons between Jim Allister and Edward Carson all I can say is that Carson in 2009, more than 70 years dead would have more ability and capacity for leadership than Jim Allister.

    I see you do not deny that Jim Allister defended terrorists in the courts and he profitted handsomely from it.

    Whilst Jim was doing such, Bob Morrow was patrolling the streets and defending the community. More than Armchair Allister ever did.

  • ABC

    Incidentally Half Pint, I wonder could you tell me why Jim left the Orange Instituion?