On the love for one’s country…

There are a few places of worship that easily transcend the specific practice of religion. The Cathedral in Chartres is one. So to, but for different reasons, is the church of St. Meinrad, the abbey church in Einsiedeln, in Switzerland. And St Martin-in-the-Fields is always an unexpected haven in the midst of the hurly burly of central London. Last Sunday it played host to a service led by the Revd Nicholas Holtam with Rabbi Lionel Blue. Blue’s relatively brief, two part homily is worth picking up from the transcript here. It’s typically understated:

I learnt from the Holocaust to beware of crude nationalism; love your country and your culture but don’t try to love your own more by loving others less. That way lies murder whether in the Balkans, the Holy Land, the Congo or wherever.

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  • Terti

    I learnt from the Holocaust to beware of crude nationalism; love your country and your culture but don’t try to love your own more by loving others less. That way lies murder whether in the Balkans, the Holy Land, the Congo or wherever.

    Unfortunately, this kind of sentiment promoted in western universities since the sixties and adhered to by much of the present establishment, especially in academia, the media and the public sector, led to multiculturalism and foolish immigration policies that paid no heed to the assimilability of migrants.

    The pendulum swung too far, and this sentiment is now the major source for creating inter-ethnic disquiet that it had tried to prevent. Yes it is right to tolerate minorities, but if such sentiments end up replacing a double digit percentage of the populace with non-assimilating minorities they de facto end up promoting ethnic conflict, competition for resources etc. in the type of mixed areas where the BNP do well, especially when apartheid-lite policies, aka multiculturalism, as opposed to a neutral public space, are pursued by the establishment in local government and the public sector.

    Too much of anything is a bad thing. When the Holocaust is used as a political weapon to hit people over the head with who promote a sensible measure of cohesion in nation states someone has to shine the light of reality. Remember the lessons of Belsen, but also the lessons of Bosnia. A degree of ethnic cohesion is a positive in a democratic nation state. This has nothing to do with race but with religious, or other cultural groups who view themselves in tribal terms. A smattering of such minorities is fine, setting up a democratic state in which they are more evenly balanced numerically is undesirable.

  • Greagoir O Frainclin

    On Holocaust Memorial Day today, spare a thought folks for all those millions of people that lost their lives at the hands of the evil psychotic cult of the Nazi’s.

  • Mick Fealty

    I always go back to my post here of four years ago on the 60th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz:


  • Greenflag

    ‘Yes it is right to tolerate minorities,’

    Indeed . The minority today may be the majority tomorrow and what goes around comes around .

    ‘ but if such sentiments end up replacing a double digit percentage of the populace with non-assimilating minorities they de facto end up promoting ethnic conflict, competition for resources etc.’

    Not necessarily so . There was no more ‘assimilated ‘ minority than the German jews in post World War 1 Germany . They made up just 0.75 % of the German popualtion as per Niall Ferguson’s ‘War of the Worlds ‘ . Their numbers had been even declining as a result of rapid intermarriage with the ‘gentiles ‘ over 25 % in the main German and Hungarian speaking areas. 120,000 German jews were so ‘assimilated ‘ that they sacrificed their lives for the German Fatherland in World War 1?

    Before there was ever a Belsen or a Bosnia the Soviets under Stalin had again according to Ferguson already ‘executed ‘ some 7 million people ranging from reputed disloyal ethnic minorities such as the Volga Germans to political prisoners to kulaks . The definition oof a kulak iirc was somebody living in the countryside who seemed to be well fed and had more than a couple of spades in a shed .

    What makes the ‘holocaust ‘ special ? The publicity ? the numbers ? the fact that the Allies won the war and thus wrote the peace ?

    Or is it the fact that the holocaust was perpetrated by somebody who was elected in a democracy and in a state which reputedly had he best educated people in the world at that time ?

    The ‘nazi ‘ psychotic ‘ cult arose for many reasons so too did it’s Stalinist counterpart most them based on half truths and bullshit pseudoscientific theories of race . While we remember the holocaust lets not put the blame on ‘minorites ‘ for not assimilating quickly enough’

    I recommend Ferguson’s “War of the Worlds’ for a detailed account of the whys and wherefores of the many ‘holocausts ‘ perpetrated in mainly Central and Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union .

  • Terti


    Your argument simply does not work. I was saying that immigration of non-assimilating populations into countries as well as promotion of division in the public space, e.g. separate schools, separate facilities etc. aka multiculturalism de facto makes ethnic conflict more likely than it would otherwise have been.

    Let’s call this A implies B.

    Your argument is “I have a counterexample where [not A] and B happened anyway”

    Elementary logic says that your argument doesn’t work. I don’t really have to go into any more detail than that since it applies no matter what A and B happen to be.

  • Terti

    A real counterexample to disprove, or at least act as evidence against my argument would be a country with significant (% wise) ethnic minority populations, high levels of government promoted multiculturalism, where inter ethnic tension and competition is low. People often say America but that is bunkum since the various hyphenated [euro]-American white groups are part of one inter assimilated ethnicity. Any examples I can think of have present or recent past inter ethnic troubles.

  • Dave

    Terti, like it or loath, the future of the EU is Muslim. By 2050, the median age of EU citizens will be 52 with one in three citizens aged above 65. Contrast that with the turn of the century when less than 3% of the European population was over 65. In addition, the EU (with its current 27 states – by then fully integrated) will decline in relativer terms to less than 4% of the global population. The EU population will need younger immigrants to become its citizens in order to generate the revenue needed to pay for the state pensions and other entitlements of its older citizens. Where are these younger immigrants going to come from? From the only place they can come from: Muslim societies. The West is no only a Christian society. It is post-Christian and, indeed, post-religious. On the other hand, Muslims are extremely devout and by no means post-religious. Ergo, that will be the religious culture that the EU is forced to import in order to sustain itself, and with that religious culture will come law that is derived from Islam. There is nothing you can do about that. It is the future of the EU.

  • Dave

    Typo: “The West is [b]not[/b] a Christian society. It is post-Christian and, indeed, post-religious.”

  • Dave

    By the way, you can find the figures here.

  • Greenflag

    terti ,

    I’m not arguing merely pointing out some facts with regard to the example of the German jews . I could have pointed out several more examples as well . Simply because a particular minority regardless of it’s cultural , ethnic or religious background or it’s assimable status whatever that means is either 1 or 2 or 3 or 10 or 47 percent does not necessarily mean conflict nor does it mean there will conflict . Very much seems to depend on the particular economic and political circumstances of the time . Had Paisley not been the leader he was would many more loyalists have gone for their guns than actually did ?

    Had Northern Ireland not been a part of the UK in 1969 could the troubles have become a mini genocide like in some of the Balkan countries in the mid 1990’s ?. Had Germany been led by a different non anti semitic dictator could Germany have won WW2 ? Had Russia not been ruled by the Soviet Communists under Stalin would upwards of 25 million have lost their lives in the Gulags ?

    Whether we all like it or most western european democracies are becoming multicultural and multi ethnic for many reasons . The roots of this go back indeed to World War 1 when over 20 million ‘males ‘ died and also another 30 plus odd million doed in WW2 . To rebuld their economies the european economies needed to import labour because their birth rates were too low . As more women took to the labour force that also reduced the birth rate . Over the past 30 years as the income of working class males has reduced relative to their former status when most women stayed at home this also reduced ‘family ‘ size particularly in those countries which had access to birth control pills etc etc . The UK/Germany /France in the 60’s and Ireland in the 80’s and the USA post 1960 ?

    As free societies we have to ensure that our written constitutions and laws ensure that there is freedom of religion for all and that there is a clear separation of Church (es ) and State.

    I’m in favour of ‘limits ‘ being placed on the number of immigrants any country can be expected to absorb at any one time . How that would work in practice is another topic .