“against parties which are fundamentally sectarian..”

On today’s Politics Show, vice-Chairman of the Conservative Party Northern Ireland, Jeffrey Peel, set out his party’s case for the “electoral pact” [and more? – Ed] with the UUP. Reaction round-up here. See also Michael’s noting of Tom Tim Roll-Pickering’s argument.

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  • It was Sammy Mc Nally what done it

    “against parties which are fundamentally sectarian”

    the new party/arrangement/alliance wont be fundamentally secatrain but they will be significantly sectarian based on the utternace and behaviour of its members (e.g. Trimble doing a funny jig in Portadown with Paisley)

    If Posh Boy David Cameron and the other double-barralled-named-quarefellahs are not prepared to join in Orange marches then he should not be joining a party, the majority of whose members, are keen supporters of these marches and whose outlook is deeply sectarian.

    Great news for Nationalism and the Labour Party.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Fundamentally sectarian ? I wonder where the TUV electoral pact sits.

  • William

    The two Republicans who have posted are furious in that the new Tory / UUP will ensure that Northern Ireland MPs elected from that alliance will be part of a UK Government party, further strengthening the Union.

    Without doubt, the DUPes will loses a number of seats when the Westminster election comes around and Lady Hermon will have additional UUP / Conservative colleagues from Ulster.

    Roll on that day !!

    As to serctarianism, there are not as sectarian as Republicans, who murdered many just because they were Protestant.

  • Comrade Stalin

    The two Republicans who have posted are furious in that the new Tory / UUP will ensure that Northern Ireland MPs elected from that alliance will be part of a UK Government party, further strengthening the Union.

    I’m glad you think I’m a republican, it makes a change from being called a small-u unionist.

    The Tory/UUP alliance will have one seat out of 18 at Westminster. I don’t see any compelling reason to believe that this level of representation will strengthen the union, but I’m glad it makes you feel better.

    Without doubt, the DUPes will loses a number of seats when the Westminster election comes around and Lady Hermon will have additional UUP / Conservative colleagues from Ulster.

    Why ? Where do the UUP and DUP fundamentally differ, apart from in terms of their policy coherence ? The UUP are a joke. The DUP are corrupt, in hock with developers in one hand and crazy fundies on the other, but unlike the UUP they know how to get their vote out.

  • It was Sammy Mc Nally what done it

    Willie,

    the splitting of the Unionist vote will suit Nationalism but will not suit the DUP – the alignment of the Tories with a sectarian party like the UU will suit the Labour Party.

    The Tories if they wanted an ally should have sought out the Alliance, who recent behaviour aside have a mentality closest (of the Unionisty parties )to the Englezes on the mainland.

    Not sure if you have inlcuded me as one of the 2 republicans – but this is absolutely excellent news for non-unionists (and non Tories) including myself.

  • ??

    and Lady Hermon will have additional UUP / Conservative colleagues from Ulster……..

    William have you checked with lady hermon to see with see will take the tory whip, bet ya havent lol

  • Ulsters my homeland

    Conservatives NI ?? what the fuck? why try to be sexy to the Irish electorate, why don’t you tell it to them straight, you all are Ulstermen and Ulster women, and there nothing to be ashamed about that, so why hide it?

    The DUP are going to have field day on this.

  • slug

    CS: don’t you think that the UUP have a chance in South Antrim ?

  • Why am I still a UUP voter?

    I’m the quintessential Tory Unionist – a snob, an integrationist and, natch, have a double starred-first in sneering at Orange-socked yahoos – but there’s not much in what Comrade Stalin up there says that I actually disagree with. The all new, old skool Unionist & Conservative Party will, at best, get *an* MP at the next election. And even that is likely to depend upon the DUP’s good graces vis-a-vis SB/FST (I’m writing off North Down – certain DUP gain – on the basis of what I’ve heard about what the widow’s ego is going to lead her to do ie a 3-way split between, an official ConUU candidate/Sylvia/& Goggly, will see the latter romp home). And in *any* environment where the arithmetic favours minor parties (the Lib Dems v much included in that status), the solitary Tory MP from Ulster will lump whatever Dave tells him, if a deal has to be cut with the dozen or so DUP MPs, all taking their seats . . .

    But I’m still grinning too much at the way the Punt kippered the Shinners last week to really care one way or the other about the relatively petty issue of the eventual Westminster fate of my own lot. Unionism won a *huge* victory last week. Or rather, the huge victory Unionism had already won was fairly officially reemphasised, and then some. I’ve had to avoid Slugger of late because if I had to read too many desperate efforts from Provettes I think I probably would have laughed myself to death.

  • It was Sammy Mc Nally what done it

    If the Tories really thought ( which no one else does) that Norn Iron is really a normal part of the UK they could offer full integration with the rest of the UK (that would mean no more SF ). They would probably win the majority of Uninoist seats – delivering safety of the Union. Constitutionally because of the GFA they cant do that as they ceded control to the ROI – in the absence of that they stay at home.

  • frustrated democrat

    Interesting mixture of posts, most based on nothing other than concern(at best)over a mainland unionist party orgsnising in NI.

    They should look at the real polling to see the potential for the new party (I think still available in the press archives and perhaps in the NI Cons website) if they commented based on some reasonable basis then their posts might mean something.

    I therefore don’t really have to promote the new alliance as everthing said against it proves just how much impact it has already had in the other political parties.

    However the real poll is in June, let us see how that works out when some professional campaigning comes to NI.

  • Comrade Stalin

    slug:

    I’m the wrong person to ask about electoral predictions. South Antrim was tight enough last time though.

    Sammy:

    The Tories if they wanted an ally should have sought out the Alliance, who recent behaviour aside have a mentality closest (of the Unionisty parties )to the Englezes on the mainland.

    Now you’re definitely trolling.

    The Tory tieup is a complete waste of time, a mad shot in the dark. Any time UK-wide political parties have tried to run here, they failed. The worst ever result for the Conservatives in an election was the result they won in North Down, in 1995. I have no idea how the UUP think they are going to be able to derive something useful from this. But it will be interesting to see how it turns out.

    Personally I hate the Tories (except for the nice ones like Patten, Hurd or Major) and I couldn’t support any political party that had anything to do with them.

    Why am I still a UUP voter:

    The problem is not the message (which between the UUP and the DUP is the same – “we support the union because it’s good, so there”). The DUP’s electoral organization completely wipes the floor with the tired-out UUP; it’s a party which, like the SDLP, has grown up in an environment where it never had to fight elections – the votes would roll in either way. Once a competing party organizes itself and gets a consistent message and a bit of energy behind it, the writing is on the wall. I think that modern elections in NI are still largely won or lost on the basis of the party’s tribe, but after that, on the basis of the community service provided by the elected rep in the local area. It’s no coincidence that both the DUP and SF have built up a fearsome reputation for being effective “fixers” who get problems sorted.

    On top of that, the UUP can’t decide whether it’s a party of generally decent moderates (like our resident UUP poster, John East Belfast) or slash and burn extremists like David Burnside. Why do people like Burnside feel that their home is in the UUP rather than the DUP, alongside people like, say, Sylvia ?

  • elvis parker

    Truth is of course that even if they get no seats athe next General Election the NI Tories and the UUP will have more influence on Cameron than any of the 18 MPs

    Very amusing to see the latent anti Britishness of DUP posters coming out.

  • The Raven

    “The DUP’s electoral organization completely wipes the floor with the tired-out UUP”

    And yet Comrade, I have to refer again to those pundits who said the Conservative Party would never hold power again after the first Labour trouncing. Never say never. People are pretty tired of the DUPers and their shenanigans.

    One example? Today alone, Mr Storey said that the intervention from Churches on the 11 plus issue was “helpful” and showed “moral” support for the position of selection. I’d like to think that increasingly people will turn from the Mullahs of the DUP, and perhaps this intervention from the Tories here may assist that turning.

    All I’m saying is, is that there’s no such thing as never in politics. As a very liberal Prod, however, I still have nowhere to cast a vote, and may yet – on the suggestion of Ann from an earlier thread – have to turn to the Green Party to assuage my non-voting guilt.

  • Comrade Stalin

    fd,

    However the real poll is in June, let us see how that works out when some professional campaigning comes to NI.

    I don’t know what’s going on, do people have short memories ? The Conservatives have been doing their “professional campaigning” here since the late 80s/early 90s. It peaked with that guy Lawrence Kennedy. They dumped piles of resources into the North Down by-election in 1995.

    The DUP and Sinn Fein have professional campaigning over here all wrapped up.

  • IJP

    By the way, we are discussing a deal which hasn’t actually been done yet!

    (I also wonder what Mr Peel’s new “colleagues” will think of being described, by implication, as not “a proper party”?)

  • drumcairnharp

    Cameron will now be able to call on the help of Billy Armstrong to learn about planning matters or how to avoid them.Wonder how Cameron will deal with so many family members employed by the UUP MLAs(Billy will be able to help him again)

  • Comrade Stalin

    And yet Comrade, I have to refer again to those pundits who said the Conservative Party would never hold power again after the first Labour trouncing. Never say never. People are pretty tired of the DUPers and their shenanigans.

    Politics over here is a weird bubble, you can’t really compare it with what happens elsewhere in the UK. So far, each party has moderated itself, and in turn been replaced by a less moderate variant. This suggests that the UUP needs to reinvent itself and make itself more extreme. I don’t think that is going to happen.

    And as I said before, I think a lot of the fortunes of the local parties here rest on the effectiveness of the elected representatives on a community level.

    And the reason why UK parties generally do not do well here is because people just don’t feel they are closely integrated with the UK. The “integrationist” thing to me is a red herring. Unionism was never about the union, it was about being not Irish, and that’s why the Stormont arms-length administration, a decidedly not integrationist arrangement, was so popular. We’re perceived as a bunch of irresponsible spongers by the people whose votes the Conservative Party are really interested in – not without a degree of justification.

    One example? Today alone, Mr Storey said that the intervention from Churches on the 11 plus issue was “helpful” and showed “moral” support for the position of selection. I’d like to think that increasingly people will turn from the Mullahs of the DUP, and perhaps this intervention from the Tories here may assist that turning.

    I think Alliance have already said this.

    All I’m saying is, is that there’s no such thing as never in politics. As a very liberal Prod, however, I still have nowhere to cast a vote, and may yet – on the suggestion of Ann from an earlier thread – have to turn to the Green Party to assuage my non-voting guilt.

    I would be interested to hear why Alliance are ruled out. Liberal prods, taigs, and none of the above are the party’s target demographic.

  • Big Maggie

    Comrade Stalin

    Unionism was never about the union, it was about being not Irish

    One of the most astute observations ever made on Slugger.

  • frustrated democrat

    CS

    You think the DUP and SF know how to campaign? Their previous campaigns have shown no sign of that.

    I think you may learn a lot in the next year or so, about campaigning and winning elections in the 21st century.

    Watch closely.

  • ??

    #

    CS

    You think the DUP and SF know how to campaign? Their previous campaigns have shown no sign of that.

    I think you may learn a lot in the next year or so, about campaigning and winning elections in the 21st century.

    Watch closely.
    Posted by frustrated democrat on Nov 23, 2008 @ 07:50 PM

    why wait, the tories have been here for years and they have performed abysmally, what on earth do you think is going to change now? They will just take whats left of the UUP down with them

  • For those who think unionism was always about not being Irish, I suggest they go to the city hall and look at the statues of Irishmen (and defined as such) who were also servants of the Empire. To say unionists have never seen themselves as Irish is wrong, though it has grown to be the case. Even David Ervine though accepted the Irish part of his identity.

  • fair_deal

    I would suggest that the ‘fundamentally sectarian’ line could very easily slip into ‘decent people’ territory

  • frustrated democrat

    ??

    The Tories have never campaigned here in any serious way since the early 1990’s as they didn’t expect to win seats, watch what happens now they do.

    As Labour have already found out to their cost they have a formidable machine.

  • William

    If the link up between the UUP / Conservatives is so ‘mad’, ‘a waste of time’, etc etc, why are there over 20 postings about it….to me it is obvious that many non-UUP supporters really see that this is a great idea and are raging about it. As it will be a vote winner at the European election with Jim Nicholson [easily the best of the three MEPs]increasing his vote and when the Westminster Election comes around, a number of the current DUPe MPs will be getting the ‘chiltern hundreds’ on their electoral demise.

    Bring it on….I can’t wait !!!!

  • William

    ?? For your information:

    Lady Hermon was a member of the Joint UUP/Conservative working party that agreed on the link up….she didn’t seem to have any problem with it….she’ll take the Conservative whip ok

    Raven: You have a Party to vote for at the next Election, which will be the European….VOTE UUP / CONSERVATIVE – YOU KNOW IT MAKES SENSE !!!

  • It was Sammy Mc Nally what done it

    Willie,

    one reason for the interest is politics of the ‘car crash’. Have you ever noticed that drivers slow down when there has been an accident.

    I personally think they may do relatively well in the Euro elections although they will further split the vote with Jimbo probably trying to save his political skin as well, but otherwise seriously it will be a very, very embarassing failure for both sides and just like with a car crash will attract much public attention.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Garibaldy:

    For those who think unionism was always about not being Irish, I suggest they go to the city hall and look at the statues of Irishmen (and defined as such) who were also servants of the Empire. To say unionists have never seen themselves as Irish is wrong, though it has grown to be the case. Even David Ervine though accepted the Irish part of his identity.

    I stand corrected. I should really have said modern unionism, rather than unionism in general. It’s British nationalism.

    I did stop to wonder how many republicans have accepted the British part of their identity, but that’s not the topic here.

    FD:

    You think the DUP and SF know how to campaign? Their previous campaigns have shown no sign of that.

    The fact that they have won elections quite handsomely by beating the incumbent parties does tend to be kind of an indication, yes. Sinn Fein and DUP election campaigns are slick and professionally run, and undoubtedly very well funded. I find them both very impressive.

    I think you may learn a lot in the next year or so, about campaigning and winning elections in the 21st century.

    Trust me, I know a fair bit about how it is done, and I fail to see where your optimism is coming from. The Conservatives tried this before, and failed miserably. I would dearly love the Tories, Labour and Conservatives to come over and kick the ass of all the parties here. Indeed when I was about 13, that’s what I thought the solution to all our problems was – I hadn’t grasped, at that time, that the problem was that people in Northern Ireland consistently vote along tribal lines despite having a wide range of choices including the Conservatives. I hope you’re not much older than I was back when I believed that.

    I love this idea that the doddery bigoted old fools that comprise most of the UUP are going to be reinvigorated by these enthusiastic pinstriped slick operators who are going to come over from London brimming with enthusiasm to rejuvenate their declining party. I love the enthusiasm of the naive. I’d really, really love to see the established parties in NI – all of them – being wiped out by mainstream UK parties. If things like that can happen then I might then have a real chance of winning the lottery.

  • CS,

    I’d say nationalists accept the British part of their identity every day with their cultural activitiess, and especially at the weekend during the football.

  • ??

    ?? For your information:

    Lady Hermon was a member of the Joint UUP/Conservative working party that agreed on the link up….she didn’t seem to have any problem with it….she’ll take the Conservative whip ok

    William you should talk to some of your friends in North Down and ask them about the rumours of Sylvias replacement at the next election.

  • Where do i go?

    There are significant members of the grassroots of the UUP not happy with the deal Reg et al aren’t forthcoming on that. wonder why?

    Jeffrey Peel’s comments today underline why they want nothing to do with the NI Tories.

    UUP Exec put through deal against will of grassroots.

    When are Mark Devenport, Ken Reid, Eamonn Mallie and every other respected local print/broadcast journalist going to talk to the UUP grass roots to gauge the real and proper opinion on this dreadful deal!

  • eranu

    “Unionism was never about the union, it was about being not Irish”

    maybe for a few backward oddballs, but not everyone else. plenty of unionists cheering our team on saturday in the rugby ya know!

  • frustrated democrat

    Where do i go?

    Not the grass roots I talk to, especially those who know how to look forward and not backward.

    It was definitely not put through against the will of the grass roots on the contrary the vast majority support the move.

  • Comrade “Irish with a hint of British” Stalin

    maybe for a few backward oddballs, but not everyone else. plenty of unionists cheering our team on saturday in the rugby ya know!

    So they all vote for unionist political parties which embrace Irishness during elections up here in Northern Ireland then ? I must have missed something.

    fd:

    Not the grass roots I talk to, especially those who know how to look forward and not backward.

    I’m an Alliance supporter so I say all that stuff as well. Clue : it doesn’t win votes, at least not by itself.

    It was definitely not put through against the will of the grass roots on the contrary the vast majority support the move.

    Which is ironic, considering that overruling the grassroots and maintaining a healthy distance from the unwashed right-wing rabble is how the Conservative Party works. They gave the grassroots the power to elect the leader and look what happened. They soon took that away.

  • darth rumsfeld

    “I’m the quintessential Tory Unionist – a snob, an integrationist and, natch, have a double starred-first in sneering at Orange-socked yahoos – but there’s not much in what Comrade Stalin up there says that I actually disagree with”

    I’m the quintessentially Orange/traditional Unionist-a west of the Bann dour Presbyterian Ulster Scot with suspicions about the benefits to our community of integration, and natch, I have a doctorate in sneering at smug chinless Toryboys from Ballyholme who wouldn’t know what the provos did if they hadn’t employed an ex-peeler as their gardener – but..er.. there’s not much in what Comrade Stalin up there says that I actually disagree with either

    This is such a non-story. The serial splitters of the NI tories and the serial bunglers of the UUP will hold on to each other in a dance of death for a couple of elections and then fall out. The Tories wil go back to their mountain of irrelvance and the UUP will flounder about like Fine Gael for a generation of dullards to pointlessly dream of the good old days and the never to arrive comeback.

    If you want to keep Punt looking over his shoulder, you have to attack his base- and that means backing the TUV. Which of course is another perilous vessel in which to deposit all your hopes and dreams. If you don’t believe me, see who gets the most DUP vitriol thrown at him in the Euro election- Nicholson or Allister

  • darth rumsfeld

    “Unionism was never about the union, it was about being not Irish”

    maybe for a few backward oddballs, but not everyone else. plenty of unionists cheering our team on saturday in the rugby ya know!”

    Actually this is right for a substantial percentage of Unionists, and not just the backward oddballs.

    Pre-1998 Unionism is about rejecting the version of irishness which grew up in the Free State/Republic replacing the British-Irishness which all pre-partition Unionists were happy and comfortable with. The recent liberalisation of the south certainly has helped dilute the distinctions- which is to be welcomed- and this may well help revive a debate over what common threads of Irishness the two parts of the island can develop to our mutual benefit.

    Plenty of Unionists couldn’t give a flying drop kick about the team whose officials so insulted the British -irish identity at Ravenhill last year, eranu. Personally I was delighted they got stuffed by a team with a Union flag in its national flag a fortnight ago. Though perversely, I was pleased that the Munstermen nearly turned the All Blacks over too- but then Munster has never made a territorial claim to Ulster….too busy hating Leinster I suppose