Slugger’s Daily Blogburst…

Kicking off with the US thing again, Green TD Ciaran Cuffe posted his New York ballot early in the election, but I doubt from what says he plumped for Nader. Luckily he only had two propositions. In California they had twelve (no wonder they had queues)…- P O’Neill spots a gap in Karl Rove’s useful little epithet on voting and voters:

Rove correctly identifies new voter mobilization as a key part of Obama’s voting bloc. It helps understand why there was so much yelling from the right about Acorn, since in a Rovian stroke of genius, Obama was taking the other side’s strongest tactic — voter suppression — and working against it.

– Gerard O’Neill sceptical of the Obama ‘change’ agenda:

I can buy the idea that a President can do enormous harm, evil even, I’m not so convinced about the converse. I think part of the great narrative fallacy that drives the United States is the idea that one individual as President can bring about extraordinary, positive change. We’ve been told the story so often by Hollywood (wasn’t Morgan Freeman the first black President?) that many of us believe it. But it isn’t true.

– When Gavin (almost) met Oprah “One guy actually bagged a TV interview while she was on her way to the bog”…

– Over at Organised Rage, Mick reckons the left should celebrate an Obama victory

– Suzy just as the dawn was rising yesterday…

– NI Tory blog argues that the Democrat’s 50 State strategy is what they are all about

– Indeed the Fabian Society has just released a report that says in Britain all parties are making rapid progress in drawing in and promoting political talent from ethnic minorities

– Malc has a rundown of five reasons why Obama won and five why McCain lost…

– Speaking of the Scottish angle on things, the normally loquacious and irrepressible Mr Skinner has not been heard of since his unfortunate encounter with a Whisky Festival in Glasgow at the weekend…

– And from the Bevan Foundation on the dearth of good ideas within the UK’s devolved parliamentary spaces…

An obsession with process at the expense of substance has masked this lack of ideas, yet the poor quality of proposed legislation is potentially much more damaging to devolution than any legislative system, convoluted or otherwise.

Hmmm, sound familiar? (BTW, when is our Legislative Assembly going to start passing their own laws? – ed)…

  • Harry Flashman

    Sorry, am I missing something here? A citizen of one state who is elected to the legislature of that state is proudly boasting how he voted in the election to decide the head of state of another state.

    Surely I can’t be alone in thinking that’s a bit wrong? Make up your mind Ciaran old son, are you an Irish citizen and representative of your Irish constituents in the Irish parliament or are you an expat American citizen who wishes to have his say in the future of his former homeland?

    I understand that it’s probably perfectly legal but it seems to me to be decidedly unethical.

    And no it’s not because he voted for Obama that I say this, if he was a British Tory MP proudly telling the world how he voted for McCain I would feel exactly the same way.

    Can you imagine the outrage in Ireland if it was discovered that an Irish American Senator from the Republican party was voting in Irish presidential elections?

  • Dewi

    I agree with you Harry – it’s not right. From his big it looks like Ciaran only studied in US – strange he ever had a vote there at all.

  • wild turkey

    ‘I understand that it’s probably perfectly legal but it seems to me to be decidedly unethical. ‘

    Assuming Mr Cuffe has dual citizenship; like me and my kids do, why is Mr Cuffe’s vote unethical?

    I am genuinely curious.

  • Harry Flashman

    Because unlike you and your kids (I also have dual citizenship, my kids have triple citizenship) he is elected to the legislature of Ireland and is part of the governing coalition in Ireland and as such he should restrict himself to Irish affairs of state, he should not be engaging in the political process of another state.

    He is either a member of the Irish Parliament or he is an expat American residing in Ireland, he must choose which he likes better, if he chooses the latter then he should excuse himself from Irish political life and resume his life as a private citizen where he is free to engage in whatever he likes.

    A member of one state’s government should not have a say in the government of another state.

    Time to choose Ciaran.

  • Dewi, I would assume that’s an information gap rather than a reason for him not to get a vote.

    Ciaran’s hardly unusual for an Irishman in that respect, unless you think legislators should automatically be disbarred from holding an external citizenship. Now that would upset more than a few apple carts.

  • Harry Flashman

    No Mick he is entitled to hold another citizenship but he should recuse himself from participating in the electoral process of the second state if he is himself an elected representative and indeed governing party member of his first nationality.

    Let us imagine the Tories win an election in the UK next year and there is a second referendum held in Ireland on the Lisbon Treaty, would everyone here be happy if a Tory MP whose granny was Irish and who held on to his dual Irish nationality boasted publicly how he voted in an Irish referendum to reject the Treaty?

    Somehow I suspect there might be a little bit of outrage. Cuffe must choose, is he a private citizen with dual citizenship and a participant in both countries political processes? Or is he a member of the Irish parliament representing Irish interests?

    What would happen if the US and Ireland had some trade dispute or other issue, would we all be happy with a public representative who can’t quite seem to make up his mind where his national loyalties lie having the deciding vote in the Dail?

  • US citizens resident abroad have the right to vote (although they also have to file taxes with the IRS). My wife asked me if I had the opportunity to vote for an Oireachtas election from Toronto whether I would do so. My reply was “absolutely not. No taxation, no representation”. (There are other reasons too but that’s the top of the list)

    As for dual citizenship by politicians, the Canadian Leader of the Opposition had to renounce his French citizenship, obtained by his mother when he was a child, because of a line pushed out by the Rovian brains of the Conservative Party of Canada attack dogs and a compliant press that he would give away the store in any negotiation with France.

  • Since he’s made himself available on the net Harry, why don’t you put your argument to him directly over there?

  • Harry Flashman

    No one is saying that Cuffe should renounce his US citizenship, merely that while he is an elected representative in the Irish Parliament, indeed while he is a part of the governing coalition in Ireland, he should not be engaging in the political process of a different state.

    It ain’t complicated and Cuffe should now decide where his priorities lie.

  • A bit surprised Suzy makes no mention of Prop 8 (Calif.) (see Gawker: “Changed America Still Hates the Gays”)

    I guess it doesn’t help the “morning in America” riff when both Obama and Biden oppose equal marriage.

    Obama did call the specific Prop 8 “unnecessary” as opposed to say “outrageous” which might have offended the 69% of African-American voters who were polled as voting Yes on 8.

    The left will not get as much from Obama as they think – in a way they are accepting the Republican “liberal” tag which his voting doesn’t always reflect, such as voting to approve the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA).

    Obama is from Chicago – the land of the Daleys. They know how to get stuff done there and not everyone is going to like how it gets done or what gets done.

  • Harry Flashman

    I may well do so Mick, however I’ve just learned from an associate in the US that American law states that when a US citizen accepts an important role in the government of another state (being an elected representative in the national parliament and forming part of the governing coalition is regarded as “important”) then their US citizenship is revoked.

    He has already been in touch with the US State Department (they handle citizenship matters) and the official confirmed this and will refer Cuffe’s US citizenship to their legal department.

    Looks like Mr Cuffe won’t have to decided after all, it may well be decide for him.

  • I believe this is the provision to which Harry refers:
    http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_779.html

  • Hi folks.

    My view is, that given that I am not an ‘office-holder’ (as defined in Irish law), and have not sought election with the intention to relinquish my US nationality, I can continue to hold both Irish and US citizenship.

    Some information on the Cornell Law site states the following:

    “A person who is a national of the United States whether by birth or naturalization, shall lose his nationality by voluntarily performing any of the following acts with the intention of relinquishing United States nationality …
    …(4) (A) accepting, serving in, or performing the duties of any office, post, or employment under the government of a foreign state…”

    The link is here:
    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/8/1481.html

    All the best, Ciarán

  • Ann

    Harry why’d you do that?

    It so reminds me of a guy a long time ago during the bad old days of the troubles being reported to his boss for blogging during his employers work time….

  • Ann

    He has already been in touch with the US State Department

    Did you deliberately bring this to your associates attention in order to have the citizenship of a person revoked above and over his head?

    I’m sorry, but that really really sucks….

    Looks like Mr Cuffe won’t have to decided after all, it may well be decide for him.

    You made sure of it, that was pure badness Harry.

  • Harry Flashman

    No Ann I didn’t, I was involved in a political discussion elsewhere and I mentioned the fact of Cuffe’s voting in the US election (by the way I was completely unaware of the rule relating to government roles in other nations) to the person with whom I was chatting, he is a US citizen and was outraged and as such he was perfectly entitled to proceed with his enquiries.

    I had no hand, act or part in what he did and was unaware he had done so until after he told me.

    Ciaran Cuffe is a big boy, he plays in the politics game and as such is subject to the big boys’ rules, he was very keen to make public the fact that although being a legislator in Ireland he nonetheless participated in forming the legislature in another state. Good luck to him, but he should be aware that actions have consequences and if someone in that other state has an objection to his participation and feels that he has no legal right to participate in that process they are perfectly entitled to take the appropriate actions.

    If Mr Cuffe loses his US citizenship that is a matter for him, he chose to take the course of action he chose, I had nothing to do with what may or may not happen as a result.

  • Ann

    Harry lets not play games here, you knew what you were doing, that is quite obvious from your posts here. Perhaps you weren’t sure, but you sought out the associate to confirm your suspicions knowing exactly what the end result would be.

    Yes I agree Mr Cuffe is a big boy, but you made sure big boys rules were going to apply. The fact that Mr Cuffe, was open about everything on his blog shows he was hardly hiding anything.

    He even told you who he voted for….big mistake wasn’t it?

    What you did you did with the full knowledge of the consequences for another human being.

  • Ciaran’s in the discussion Harry, no need to address him as though it wasn’t…

  • Sara

    As an American citizen who has to live out the votes of foreigners who decide our elections from afar, I find it oppressive and dishonorable that Ciaran Cuffe voted in my Nation’s election.

    Cynthia McKinney is downright mentally ill and a racist and if Mr. Cuffe lived here and loved my country and our hope for an end to racism as much as I do, he would know that and he would not harm the US by advocating for her in any way. But since all he can do is read propaganda written by someone who is litterate for McKinney, he thinks she’s wonderful from his foreign ignorance. She is so insane and hateful, she could not be tolerated by the socialists in the Democrat Party who are also insane and racist!

    I grow weary of Europeans claiming the US is the leader of the WORLD. We are not and we do not want to be! We are our own Nation, trying to do the best we can just like every other democratic Nation. So Europe, take care of your own plentiful problems and bugger off. Wait until “the leader of the world” Obama, cuts off your free defense! When Russia is nipping at your toes (and your oil supplies), or Iran is pointing nukes in your direction, don’t go running to – peace, peace – Obama for Uncle Sam protection! I don’t want to protect you anymore. Protect yourselves!

    Sorry, that was a temper tamptrum! But you are going to see what the Left in Europe wishes for -and dares to even vote for in our elections – are going to bring sorrow to Europeans when they get it! Ignorance and propaganda is not bliss.

  • latcheeco

    Jaysus Ann,
    He’s Harry Flashman (Tom Brown’s Schooldays etc.) It’s what he does. It’s how he rolls. It’s what makes his existence worthwhile.Skullduggery with a self-righteous veneer the trademark of the right.

  • Dewi

    Ciarán – don’t you think it’s a bit off?
    Harry – I agree with you (very strange)
    and I don’t want my tenner in spices…give it to Slugger.

  • Ann

    If he has done nothing wrong, he has nothing to worry about – right?

    In any case, Harry has said that he didn’t deliberately alert his colleague BECAUSE HE DIDN’T KNOW ABOUT THE PROVISION. His colleague was the one who did all the running.

    My interest is in the screenshot from Deputy Cuffe’s website, in which an New York envelope address in view. Deputy (don’t know you personally), do you maintain a New York address? I would have thought a foreign-resident citizen would normally vote at the embassy in Dublin rather than an absentee ballot?

  • noel adams

    Courtisy of pink news total spent by both sides on propisation8 in calafornia 65 million dollers including 1.4 million from the knights of columbanus.On the orher side of the argument personaly but it is daft all this cash spent that could have gone to better use.

  • “Courtisy of pink news total spent by both sides on propisation8 in calafornia 65 million dollers”

    $65 million will get you in the game but you’ll need $74 million to rake in the pot.

  • Hmmm… joint citizenship you say, being elected a representative you say, shocking shocking shocking. Not like say any contemporary US politician who also holds joint citizenship with another country… like…er… Arnold Schwarznegger… and here’s something worth reading at least for the ironies contained therein. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4198633.stm

    Nor is it an easy process to renounce citizenship as the following indicates…

    http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_776.html

  • Harry Flashman

    Mick I was addressing Ann not Ciaran because she was making personal allegations about my actions.

    I state again I had no idea of the provision regarding US citizenship and foreign governments, trust me I am really not that up to date in the abstruse minutiae of foreign citizenship law.

    As Mark points out if Ciaran has broken no laws then there is no harm in my associate enquiring about that fact, if he has in fact broken a law then surely as an elected representative he must face the consequences. Believe me Ciaran Cuffe’s politics or citizenship status are of no concern to me, I had never even heard of the man until this evening, but he got involved in a public political debate, I joined in, someone else did too, that’s all that happened.

    Ann, do you believe that Tory MP’s should be voting in Irish referenda?

    Worldbystorm have you any evidence that Schwarzennigger engages in the political process in Austria? If he does then I believe he should desist immediately.

  • George

    Jaysus Harry,
    risking an Irishman’s chance to go to the United States in these straitened times. Some things are beyond the Pale.

    I know Ciarán Cuffe has a decent job but even he could well receive his cards. We’re a fickle lot in Dún Laoghaire you know. Ask Fiona O’Malley.

    I suppose Ciarán should be glad we don’t have oaths any more in Dáil Éireann or he would have lost his citizenship already. Maybe that’s why the Greens went into power with oath-averse Fianna Fáil?

    PS: Even if Cuffe was Taoiseach and voted in the US election he would not have broken the law, he would merely have faced the reality that his citizenship would be revoked. There is no mention of a criminal offence in the code.

  • Harry Flashman

    If he has “naturalised” US citizenship he would presumably have taken an oath of allegiance to the US and would have explicitly renounced any other citizenship, which means that when he was campaigning on the Green ticket in Irish elections he would have been hiding from his constituents that he had already given allegiance to the Great Satan and renounced his Irish citizenship (in word if not in deed), not a criminal offence I grant you but something which would surely have been of some interest to them when deciding how to vote.

    Just for the record however one more time; I did not report Ciaran Cuffe’s status to the US authorities, nor did I suggest to anyone else to do so (you will see from my initial post that I assumed what he had done was perfectly legal).

    I am not that petty and I would never seek out to do down any other person in such a way, but Ciaran stuck the thing up there in broad daylight and so he has to face the consequences if consequences there are, if I hadn’t questioned it I’m sure someone else would have. However he can comfort himself that given the brontosaurus like speed and efficiency at which US officialdom operates there will probably be no consequences whatsoever.

  • Wilde Rover

    Sara,

    “Cynthia McKinney is downright mentally ill”

    Are you a psychiatrist? Do you have access to a report that says Cynthia McKinney is mentally ill? I would accuse you of slander, or considering the fact these are published words, libel, but that would imply that you had come to this conclusion on your own following a period of critical thought.

    Instead, I am assuming that this is a received opinion, devoid of any thought, spinning around in a vacuous echo chamber. Instead of scorn for such vicious remarks you only have my pity.

    “and a racist”

    I would have liked to have seen Ron Paul as a final candidate in this election, but in the end I would have voted for Cynthia McKinney if I were a US citizen. Does this mean that I am racist against black people and white people?

    Do my political opinions cause your “every person has their box” view on the world to collapse? Does that mean you will be forced to label me mentally ill as well?

    “and if Mr. Cuffe lived here and loved my country and our hope for an end to racism as much as I do, he would know that and he would not harm the US by advocating for her in any way.”

    And yet two front running war candidates didn’t harm the image of the US. Your myopia is astounding.

    “But since all he can do is read propaganda written by someone who is litterate for McKinney, he thinks she’s wonderful from his foreign ignorance. She is so insane and hateful, she could not be tolerated by the socialists in the Democrat Party who are also insane and racist!”

    You know, it is particularly ironic that you are accusing people of being mentally ill and then go on to employ the use of an exclamation mark.

    My understanding of why she lost the backing of the Democrats is because she had the temerity to ask awkward questions surrounding the heavily flawed 9/11 Commission and defend the victims of 9/11.

    Cynthia McKinney is a true patriot and defender of your constitutional republic, unlike the political whores and gangsters that claim to be representatives of your republic.

    “Sorry, that was a temper tamptrum!”

    No need to apologize. Don’t let me distract you from your consumption of kool-aid.

  • latcheeco

    Sorry Flash,
    You don’t renounce any other citizenship when you take that oath. Like so much lately, you presume wrongly.

  • latcheeco

    Wilde,
    Are you thinking about the same Cynthia MCKinney everybody else is? The one who had the todo with the security guard in congress because he checked her id? The one who was singing the Pink song really badly on national tv when she lost he election that time? Check you understanding again mate. I don’t think it had much to do with 9/11.

  • latcheeco,

    Is there any other member of Congress who asked any hard questions about the hopeless 9/11 Commission?

    Even the members of the commission said it was flawed.

    Are you also expressing a medical opinion on the state of her mental health too, Dr. Latcheeco?

  • Oh, my apologies Harry, I mistook you for someone who had a problem with the principle at stake as regards joint citizenship. In other words that people shouldn’t hold it or exercise the rights thereunder if they had political office in another state – irregardless of what that state was (and holding it is to have the right to exercise the rights – if you get my point). Or do you only reify the US side of the citizenship equation?

    But as it happens Schwarznegger (easy to mispell, but always worth making the effort to get it right) has been instrumental in dealing on a bilateral basis with the EU of which Austria is a member – particularly on climate change. Now I don’t know whether I call that ‘engaging’ with the Austrian political process, but I’d certainly be calling that influencing on some level, and using (implicitly) that joint citizenship to further his political aims within the US.

    But seeing as this is a gray area for you, at least for Schwarznegger (although you extend no such courtesy to Cuffe) perhaps we could say that the principle is precisely the same and as with Caesar’s wife such individuals should have no hint of a conflict of interest. I look forward to your berating the Governor of California, also Austrian citizen, in the same terms.

  • Harry Flashman

    No wbs, once again you miss the point spectacularly, if Ciaran Cuffe in his role as a TD is engaged in some activity in cooperation with the US authorities then that’s fine, his dual citizenship is also fine, but he should not have the presumption to vote in one country’s election while holding elected public office in another nation. Pretty bloody simple principle to grasp I’d have thought.

    Again I ask would you be comfortable with a British Tory MP publicly boasting about how he had voted in an Irish national referendum? I know I would consider it a bloody affront.

  • Harry Flashman

    latcheeco

    Care to explain what you think the opening line of the US Oath of Allegiance means, in particular the bit I emphasise? I can be a bit of a dimwit with these fancy words, maybe you could explain them.

    “I hereby declare, on oath, that [b]I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen[/b]; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America”

    Can you help me out?

  • George

    Harry,
    those words say you renounce the allegiance and fidelity, not the citizenship.

    It’s a bit like our Irish boys who sign up to the British Army. They have to swear an oath to the Queen but don’t renounce their Irish citizenship by doing so.

  • Harry Flashman

    Oh I don’t know George, absolutely and entirely renouncing and abjuring all allegiance and fidelity to a foreign state of which you had previously been a citizen, seems to me to mean what it says. If it doesn’t mean renouncing your former citizenship well frankly I don’t know what does mean, the English language either means something or it doesn’t.

    If all the Oath asked for was loyalty to the US then I’d agree with your British Army analogy, but that clause goes much further than that, it’s pretty clear and unambiguous in my view; you renounce your former citizenship, (remember the concept of ‘citizenship’ is a relatively modern term, there was no such thing as British Citizenship until 1981).

  • Ciarán Cuffe

    Folks,

    Just to clarify – I was born in Ireland, and grew up in Ireland, but my late mother was from Chicago, and moved to Ireland in 1949 after marrying a charming Irishman who was fortunate enough to have received a Marshall Plan scholarship to study in the US.

    I’ve spent about two years in total in the US, both working and studying over the years.

    Here’s a snippit from Wikipedia
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_nationality_law

    “… Based on the U.S. Department of State regulation on dual citizenship (7 FAM 1162), the Supreme Court of the United States has stated that dual citizenship is a “status long recognized in the law” and that “a person may have and exercise rights of nationality in two countries and be subject to the responsibilities of both …”

    Ciarán

  • Harry Flashman

    Good for you Ciaran, I was genuinely concerned I’d landed you in trouble, so you’ve nothing to worry about then.

    I’m sure you also have a perfectly reasonable explanation why having spent only two years in the US you seem to be claiming to be a resident of New York for voting purposes and I am sure also that as a citizen of the US you have fully complied with the US tax laws which expect US citizens even those who are living overseas to continue to pay taxes to the US.

    I have to say I think that’s a bloody cheek of the American government, to my mind if you’re not living in a country even if you’re a citizen you shouldn’t have to pay taxes to them but then I’m a cranky oul’ right winger who hates taxes on principle but you’re a committed Green who fully supports the right of government to tax their citizens under whatever circumstances they see fit, so I have no doubt you have dutifully completed your tax returns and have always paid the proper taxes to your government in the United States, the one you have a say in electing, right? I mean you wouldn’t avoid paying US taxes would you?

    And before Ann gets on her high horse no I will not be reporting Ciaran to the US Internal Revenue Service, I couldn’t care less whether he pays the taxes he’s liable for or not but I’m just interested in whether Obama supporters who vote for tax increases on American citizens are actually willing to pay those taxes themselves.

    It’s an interesting point don’t you think, but perfectly moot in Ciaran’s case because I’m sure he has always complied with US tax law and paid the taxes he owed to the US government.

  • Harry, it is you who misses the point. Citizenship rights are extended to people by states. In this instance there is nothing that precludes Ciarán Cuffe or Arnold Schwarznegger from exercising those rights in full or in part. There is no ‘presumption’ involved (an emotive, not a legal, term). Cuffe is exercising his rights in full – we have no idea whether Schwarznegger is exercising his. As regards cooperation with US authorities, hmmm… California has been exercising a fairly unilateral approach in the area of climate change, but nonetheless he remains an Austrian citizen.

    I think you are unable to see the distinction between your personal dislike (i.e. the idea that an elected representative in one state could vote in the election in another of which he also holds citizenship) with the legal status – which is the extension of voting rights to all citizens of the latter state (bar some clearly defined exclusions). And your answer in 12 indicates that you’re fundamentally unable to grasp the idea of joint citizenship. It doesn’t matter what things ‘seem to me to mean’, it’s what the actuality is.

    It’s that simple, and all the ‘affront’ and hand waving in the world won’t make a blind bit of difference about it. There is a discussion to be had about what is appropriate whatever about the law, but Cuffe remains within that law.

    Anyhow, here are some more examples of people who I’ll assume are even more egregiously offensive to you than Ciarán Cuffe. How about former Italian Youth Policy and Sports Minister Giovanna Melandri? She sits in the Italian Parliament and is also a member of the US Democratic Party, voted in the recent primaries for BO and I presume voted for him in the election.

    Or what about Jonas Kronkaitis who holds dual US/Lithuanian citizenship and is commander in chief of the Lithuanian Armed forces. Curiously he managed to make it through three Lithuanian parliamentary votes including one where he gave a tearful apologia as to why he would never renounce his US citizenship. I don’t know how the Lithuanians feel about it, but from the US State Department, who surely would note such matters, nary a peep.

    There are others… here’s an article from the rather too conservative for my tastes US based Center for Immigration Studies (for which read way off my scale but the piece itself is well written) …. which gives more examples. http://www.cis.org/articles/2005/dualcitizenship.html They point out that under US law there is no block on these matters, and frankly CC seems to be in the tu’penny ha’penny league (with all due respect to him) in comparison with some of the folks referenced here.

    And to be honest, am I comfortable or not with a Tory MP boasting about a referendum? Answer, no odds to me. If s/he has that right s/he have that right. But then, I would say that, since I had a British passport for my first few years of life and would gladly hold joint British citizenship in the future – which I’m entirely eligible for. I’m pretty relaxed about such matters.

    Actually the Tory MP analogy is interesting, not least because it raises issues about this which are of particular relevance to the US, a nation founded on immigrants. There are similarities to an extent with the British/Irish experience with large numbers on both sides of the Irish Sea who have a foot in both camps as it were.

  • latcheeco

    Wilde,
    I never mentioned her mental state. I was refering to why the dems couldn’t get away fast enough and it had nothing to do with 9/11 but thanks for the promotion anyway.Was it academic or medical?
    Jaysus Harry,
    This week just keeps getting worse doesn’t it.

  • Harry Flashman

    WbS

    God this is going to take a long time, I am fully aware that it is perfectly LEGAL to vote in two jurisdictions, trust me I understand that bit, I made it very clear in the very first point, I’m simply saying in my OPINION, and opinion is what we deal in here, I don’t think an elected representative should vote in the elections of another jusrisdiction even if he has a right to, as a matter of principle.

    To help you out, I am a graduate of Trinity College, Dublin I have a right to vote in the Irish Senate election, I choose not to do so on principle. In precisely the same way I do not have an absentee ballot for NI elections, I don’t think that I should vote in elections in a society I no longer live in. I think this same principle applies in spades to a man who has chosen to play an elected role in one nation, he should stick to that nation and not vote in other nation’s affairs, even if he has the right to. You see no problem with a Tory MP voting in Irish referendums, I do, it’s a matter of principle to me.

    Have I got that through to you yet? Have you grasped the concept yet? Do you need to keep going over the same old points again? It’s a matter of principle I’m arguing from.

    Sheesh it can take a long time sometimes with some people.

    Latch

    I note you quite blatantly ignore my post which proves that your statement in post no.6 (above) is, erm, what’s the word I’m looking for? Oh yes, “wrong”.

  • Dewi

    Cool head mun Harry – Life’s too short.

  • Harry,

    Damm right I pay my taxes, on both sides of the pond.

    I even got my $259.05 Economic Stimulus payment in the post from the IRS the other day. Oh, and for those worried about my carbon footprint, I don’t have a house in the US, and its been a few years since I was in the US.

    No representation without taxation, as you might say.

    Ciarán

  • Harry Flashman

    Good man Ciaran, I’d expect nothing less from such a law abiding citizen.

    I’d still be interested in your opinion about my main contention that in principle you should not be voting in elections for one legislature while simultaneously being an elected representative in another legislature.

    My objection to a Tory MP voting in Irish referenda being my main argument in favour of why you should not be doing so.

  • latcheeco

    Harry,
    Didn’t you yourself boast of having two citizenships and that your children had three. You should know as much as anybody that you do not have to renounce previous citizenship which is what you suggested. WBS and George had already cleaned your clock ( and more eloquently than I ever could)by the time I got back to the post. Apologies if not replying appeared rude,no offence intended. I’m actually quite partial to your eccentricities and your nom de plume is a personal hero and guiding light.

  • Harry, let me be clear. I know this is your opinion. That’s precisely the point I make. You talk about his ‘presumption’, and it being ‘unethical’, but US law makes no such distinctions in relation to joint citizenship. The man, as we now discover, pays his taxes. Unless US law changes then I see little or no problem. Indeed a counter argument is that in order to fully exercise his citizenship he has to vote, otherwise why bother holding it?

    I’ve pointed out that I’m relaxed personally about a Tory MP voting in Irish elections, etc, etc.

    So this is, very much, your stuff. Or to answer your initial question, yes, it would appear that you’re very (nearly) alone in thinking this.

    There is a discussion to be had about such matters as I noted earlier, but it is one that eschews the emotive stuff about individual US/Irish or other citizens (or equally emotive arguments about Tories) who are acting within the law and examines the principles involved.