Even Cardinals are breaking Godwin’s law these days…

His Grace Lord Cranmer picks a very Protestant argument with a very Catholic Cardinal:

…writing an open letter to the Prime Minister, in which the policies of a democratically-elected government making law through the legitimate processes of a representative Parliament are compared to those of Nazi Germany, is not remotely acceptable.

Walks away slowly shaking head…BTW, if you don’t get the title, check out the first story on today’s Blogburst

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  • Big Maggie

    The letter to Mr Brown … speaks of the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Bill as being ‘misguided’ and ‘potentially most harmful’

    Those same words could of course be applied to his own Church although I’d delete ‘potentially’.

  • Dec

    Cranmer’s remarks about the Pope are unbelievably cheap.

  • Big Maggie

    Dec

    Cranmer’s remarks about the Pope are unbelievably cheap

    I don’t see how. He was simply saying that the pope knows the real deal about Nazism and the cardinal doesn’t, therefore shouldn’t have sounded off. I don’t read this as an attack on the pope but the very opposite.

  • Mrs/Miss/Ms Big Maggie,

    His Grace is not without sympathy for your position. But it must be observed that things are not a whole lot better within (presumably) your Church in England and Wales.

    His Grace is, however, most appreciative that you deigned to grant his Church an upper case ‘C’, for His Holiness has condemned it as being not a church ‘in the proper sense’.

  • Big Maggie

    Cranmer

    I was always taught that a Church is a community and a church a building! Also that pope is the office and Pope part of a title. I suppose these silly forms stay with you even when you’re long past believing :^)

  • Mrs/Miss/Ms Big Maggie,

    Quite so. And a lot of this silliness then begins to constitute folk religion. The Church is the body of believers, the saints departed and living. A church building has indeed become a church in the vernacular. But non-Catholic denominations of the Body of Christ have frequently been referred to as churches, as distinct from the Church in the catholic (small c!) sense.

    And His Grace has no idea what Dec is talking about. He cannot have read the post properly at all.

  • He isn’t breaking Godwin’s Law, just as falling out of a tree and landing on the ground with an almighty thump is not breaking the universal law of gravitation. Godwin’s Law isn’t a commandment.

    What’s wrong with comparing people to Nazis if they really act like Nazis? In this case I believe the Cardinal is wrong, but Nazis shouldn’t be enshrouded in some sort of immoral mystique, as though they were some sort of embodiment of ultimate evil never to be arrived at again.

    Also, there are lots of Nazi comparisons drawn and no-one bats an eyelid: Iran, Hezbollah, Hamas, Saddam Hussein all spring to mind.

    It seems to me the Godwins-law-as-commandment really only applies to people like us. That is, you shouldn’t call someone like yourself a Nazi. Even if they advocate things like collective punishment for entire populations. But if our enemies inflict forms of collective punishment, then it’s acceptable to call them Nazis.

  • Also there is no reason why ‘the policies of a democratically-elected government making law through the legitimate processes of a representative Parliament’ could not be similar in intent and effect to certain Nazi policies. Just because a policy is decided via democratic processes does not of itself mean that the policy is good.

  • Gregory Carlin

    The Nazis, may have had a lower killing rate than the examples from Anatolia, or Rwanda, and Stalin or Mao may be the ultimate mass murderers.

    I don’t think being drafted into a Luftwaffe Flak support unit, from a classroom, means as much as some people would have us accept.

  • Danny O’Connor

    I think that it is worth remembering that the Nazis were democratically elected,and not withstanding the millions killed during the war,over 250,000 had been killed before war broke out,the handicapped in particular were deemed not to have anything worthwhile to contribute to the fatherland.
    It is right and proper to protect the most vulnerable in our society,which includes unborn children and those with disabilities.
    It is right that people be reminded of where we could end up if the lessons of the past are not learned.
    Genetics can lead to Eugenics.

  • Big Maggie

    Hugh Green

    Also there is no reason why ‘the policies of a democratically-elected government making law through the legitimate processes of a representative Parliament’ could not be similar in intent and effect to certain Nazi policies

    Except they are not. And for SPUC and others to imply they are is being disingenuous, just as they love to throw about expressions like ‘human-animal hybrids’ as though we’re talking about centaurs here. Let the Cardinal show how the ‘incapacitated adults and children’ will suffer. He can’t? Thought not.

  • Big Maggie

    Danny O’Connor

    It is right that people be reminded of where we could end up if the lessons of the past are not learned.

    Ah, but I’ve a shrewd idea that the supernaturalists’ campaign intends more than reminding.

    Genetics can lead to Eugenics.

    They can. They can also lead to wonderful cures as yet undreamt of.

  • Except they are not.

    Sure, in this case they are not, and I also happen to think that the Cardinal is wrong to make the comparison and that SPUC are loopers. I’m just saying that you can’t argue that a policy is not like a Nazi policy just because democratic processes were used to arrive at it.

  • Mick Fealty

    Hugh,

    I think you’d better re-read what his Grace actually said. But you are right Godwins Law could do with being downgraded to a rule (which can of course be broken).

  • Danny O’Connor

    Big Maggie.
    who is going to create the safeguards,there is no case to be made,the reality is that in all the medical advances that have been made using stem cells ,none have been from embryonic stem cells.

  • Dec

    I don’t see how. He was simply saying that the pope knows the real deal about Nazism and the cardinal doesn’t, therefore shouldn’t have sounded off.

    Maggie

    The phrase he used was: “one hopes the Cardinal has consulted with his boss who has first-hand experience of Hitler Youth. ”

    Not the same thing as the having knowledge of the horrors of Nazism. It was a snide, ignorant remark.

  • Mick Fealty

    Dec,

    Come come. If making ‘snide and ignorant’ remarks was a bar to making a valid point there’d be more than a few round here would be forced to take an early bath.

  • Big Maggie

    Dec

    I’ve no wish labour the point but I really don’t think Cranmer was implying that the pope sided with the Nazis. He’d be foolish to do so as the world and her husband know by now that the present pope had absolutely no Nazi sympathies, even if a predecessor did.

    Danny

    There will be safeguards. This isn’t 1938 but 2008. A scientist can’t break wind now without it being blogged about.

  • Comrade Stalin

    It’s not as serious as the case of Cardinal Richelieu

    Or, of course, these chaps.

  • Greenflag

    ‘Genetics can lead to Eugenics.’

    This has already happened . And at a time when genetic science was a long way from being as advanced as it is today . The USA not Nazi Germany was the first major country to ‘sterilise ‘ the mentally handicapped back in 1910 . And the practice was continued up to the 1970’s in the State of Virginia . Other countries followed the American lead , Sweden , Germany , Latvia , Estonia . Countries which were predominantly Catholic did not pass ‘eugenic ‘laws . The Netherlands and Belgium did not pass such laws . Neither did the Soviet Union . They were more focused on suppressing the ‘clever ‘ people .

    In Britain there were several attempts to bring in a eugenics law i.e to sterilise the mentally deficient etc and there was widespread support among the ‘intelligentsia ‘ both of the right and left for such legislation .The Conservatives , Liberals , Fabians were all enthusiastic or such a law . In 1912 the new HOme Secretary Reginald McKenna brought in the Mental Deficiency Bill which would restrict procreation by feeble minded people aand would punish those who married mental defectives .

    One man deserves to be singled out for mounting opposition to ths bill : a radical libertarian MP with the famous indeed relevant name of Josiah Wedgwood -scion of the famous industrial family that had repeatedly intermarried with the Darwins .

    The full story is in the chapter on Eugenics in Matt Ridley’s excellent book Genome for those interested .

    As for Cardinal O’Brien’s comment ? I don’t recall him being elected to office . But I do recall his organisation turned a very blind eye to abusive practices by the churchs bishops and clergy perpetrated not on ‘stem cells ‘ but on fully developed children.

    Brown imo should have told the Cardinal where to get off .

    In the stone age people had no option except to watch their children, friends and relatives die of smallpox .

    In the 19th century and even later people watched their parents die of tubercolosis .

    If technology can save lives and we know it has then what could be wrong with stem cell research which could bring cures to many human diseases ?

    Here’s a practical example mentioned by Ridley of how genetic studies has led to a beneficial outcome for families and individuals .

    Tay Sachs disease (cystic fibrosis )is the result of a genetic mutation comparatively common in Ashkenazi Jews . In the USA the Committee for the Prevention of Jewish Genetic Diseases organises the testing of schoolchildren’s blood . When ‘matchmakers ‘ later in life are considring a marriage between two young people thay can call a hotline and quote the two anonymous numbers they were each assigned at their ‘testing ‘ . If they are both carriers of the same mutation the committee advises against the marriage . The practical results of this voluntary policy which was criticised in 1993 by the New York Times as ‘eugenic’ are already impressive . Cystic fibrosis has now been virtually eliminated from the USA’s jewish population .

    Is the Cardinal telling people that they need to be born with cystic fibrosis if that’s God’s will ?

    This Cardianl is just another fundamentalist ‘nutter ‘ albeit of the Catholic variety in this case 🙁

  • Big Maggie

    As for Cardinal O’Brien’s comment ? I don’t recall him being elected to office . But I do recall his organisation turned a very blind eye to abusive practices by the churchs bishops and clergy perpetrated not on ‘stem cells ‘ but on fully developed children.

    Well said, Greenflag.

  • Gregory Carlin

    ‘As for Cardinal O’Brien’s comment ? I don’t recall him being elected to office . But I do recall his organisation turned a very blind eye to abusive practices by the churchs bishops and clergy perpetrated not on ‘stem cells ‘ but on fully developed children’

    I know a little about Vatican issues,

    and unlike the NASUWT the Pope or Cardinal O’Brien are not asking for the derogation of legislation which criminalizes foster parents having sex with foster children.

    The NASUWT *is* asking for precisely that and the reason is that they really, need to get it. They are not doing it for a few dozens, they need it for a considerable number of their members.

    Thousands of teachers are referred to List 99 and that is the tip of the iceberg. Why is it always priest this or priest that?

    Gregory

  • Big Maggie

    Gregory

    Why is it always priest this or priest that?

    It’s the people taking revenge for centuries of oppression :^)

  • Comrade Stalin

    I know a little about Vatican issues

    Is that in your capacity as a human rights lawyer ?

  • Dec

    Come come. If making ‘snide and ignorant’ remarks was a bar to making a valid point there’d be more than a few round here would be forced to take an early bath.

    Mick

    I prefer ‘witty and insightful’, if you don’t mind.

  • Gregory Carlin

    “Is that in your capacity as a human rights lawyer ?”

    The skirt thing, you don’t have to study behaviorism at Quantico to fill in the blanks on that do you?

    Why would anybody want to ban skirts? I will give one guess, and a clue (a)

    A skirt ban will also get a school listed in hundreds of porn web-sites, and pedo groups take note, it makes things very difficult.

    Gregory

    Note (a)

    Thursday October 9, 2008
    UK’s Largest Teachers’ Union Lobbies to Legalise Sex with Students
    By Hilary White

    LONDON, October 9, 2008 (LifeSiteNews.com)

    (snip)

    List 99 is a secret register of men and women who are barred from working with children by the Department of Education and Skills. Carlin said, “Thousands of teachers are referred to List 99 each year, most of them from the NASUWT. In fact, the referrals doubled between 2003 and 2005.”

    URL: http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2008/oct/08100910.html

    Copyright © LifeSiteNews.com. This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-No Derivatives License. You may republish this article or portions of it without request provided the content is not altered and it is clearly attributed to “LifeSiteNews.com”.

  • Gregory Carlin

    “It’s the people taking revenge for centuries of oppression ”

    It is not the inquisition I have to worry about, two days ago the fuel tank, yesterday the windows, and today, one of my cycles was destroyed. Every single day it is something.

    Who have I upset?

    Gregory

  • Mike

    Danny O’Connor

    “I think that it is worth remembering that the Nazis were democratically elected”

    That statement is a simplistic and not very accurate representation of the historical reality.

  • Greenflag

    ‘Why is it always priest this or priest that?’

    Eh ? always ? I don’t believe so . Sometimes it’s a Bishop , other times a Cardinal and now and again even an Archbishop . Evangelical Fundamentalist preachers are also high up on the list of financial fraudsters and con artists and women /children abusers . Organisations tend to rot from the top down . Priests get more of a mention simply because there were more of them in the past than there will be in the future.

    You know a little about Vatican issues ?

    Wonderful. Then you’ll be aware that the RC Church is now considering /advocation ‘psychological/psychiatricscreening tests for applicants to the priesthood . This is apparently a plan to ensure that ‘homosexuals ‘ are excluded as well as those males who cannot abstain from their natural desires re female women of the opposite sex .

    That should reduce the number of potential applicants to about .00001 % of the male population I should think ?

    Anyway it’s Friday so here’s a Dubliner who knew a lot more about the unreal ‘reality’ of religious belief and indoctrination of the absurd as he remembers it 😉

  • Greenflag

    Here’s another Carlin’s take on religion . However it’s the late George and not Gregory 😉

    Code word – ‘money ‘