Meeting loyalist paramilitaries

A DUP delegation has held meetings with the leaderships of the loyalist paramilitaries. In a statement from the DUP Peter Robinson he said:“These meetings represent an opportunity to engage and discuss the process of transition from paramilitary organisations to people playing a full part in a peaceful and democratic Northern Ireland with violence and criminality being firmly a thing of the past. “

One might regard trying to stop these organisations as laudable; however, to my mind the next sentence betrays Robinson’s error:

“The response from both the UDA and the UVF/RHC has been positive and there was a commitment to an ongoing engagement.”

The idea of a positive response from the loyalist terrorists is utterly specious. They continue to hold onto their weapons and have repeatedly refused to give them up. The problem with the DUP approach exists at several levels.

Firstly there is a simple moral argument: these groups and those individuals with whom the DUP members were discussing have been involved in some of the most unpleasant terrorist murders in Northern Ireland. They are also involved in ongoing criminality and murders such as, it would seem, Thomas Devlin, possibly Lisa Dorrian etc. They continue to exert a malevolent and destructive influence on mainly working class Protestant areas: the same areas which frequently vote DUP (but very rarely for the representatives of loyalist terrorists). As such to entreat with the persecutors of their constituents seems extremely inappropriate.

The DUP will of course claim that these people (the working class Protestants) will benefit from the ending of loyalist paramilitarism. That may well be true and may be an honest position but it exposes a large flaw in their moral argument, and it becomes very difficult for the DUP to criticise the likes of John Hume indulging in discussions with SF, in the aftermath of some of the worst terrorist atrocities of the troubles. It also as Jim Allister has noted undermines the line which needs to be kept to on SF and policing and justice.

The next reason why it is a foolish plan from the DUP is the simple fact that the strategy (entreating with loyalist paramilitaries) has been shown on numerous occasions to be utterly useless: Mo Mowlam went to talk to them, all manner of people with good or bad motives have engaged with them yet as I noted above the paramilitaries continue to indulge in criminal activities: not merely the criminal activity of being in loyalist criminal organisations but also in numerous organised crimes. Discussions with these groups will inevitably centre on what will persuade them to go away. Essentially these groups require some sort of carrot or Danegeld to buy them off and then they may consider starting to do what the rest of us have always done: obey the law; the law which bans owning weapons, the law which bans being in illegal organisations, killing people, robbing people, dealing drugs, etc. etc. They have also repeatedly said that they will not give up “The people’s guns” and similar nauseatingly evil statements: nauseating especially when the “people” they claim to support and help, the working class unionist population, have always been those who most frequently suffered at the muzzles of “The People’s Guns.”

Sadly the DUP is going down the well travelled and utterly ineffective path with these people. All they will do is undermine the very thing most people want; that these people are stopped, preferably by arrest and ideally held accountable for the very large numbers of crimes they have committed. Margaret Ritchie has shown one of the few ways forward in this: stopping their money. The DUP would, I fear, be far better employed in meeting with the police and indeed the Secretary of State and encouraging a much more muscular and aggressive policing response to loyalist criminality. Loyalist paramilitaries have always been utterly useless and as I have discussed earlier it is long past time to stop appeasing them. The only meetings which the leaders of loyalist paramilitarism should be holding are: firstly with the PSNI serious crime squad, then hopefully with their lawyers and ideally many years thereafter with their probation officers.

  • Turgon.
    Could it be that the reason that there isnt a robust police response to these organisations is that that thye have a good working relationship with many highly placed police officers?

  • I hope the footsoldiers of Unionism were treated far better than when their leadership dispensed with their services in the 90’s.

    Will the wee sanctimonious wan in the TUV decry these terrorists on both sides of the meeting table? Don’t haud yir breath.

  • ZoonPol

    I just read about this on the BBC Web. I find this amazing for 2 reasons:
    1
    The DUP criticised the UUP for their talks with the PUP
    2
    Where is the UUP PR machine to point the above fact out and to highlight how it was power above principle for many DUP goals?

  • gareth mccord

    how can this be news to people when it is a fact that the unionist politicians and loyalist killers have met and planned for years !!
    they both play in the same team and paid by the same structures.
    if anyone is to dispute my fact then why have and do the unionist politicians ignore the loyalist murders, drugs and intimidation and murder threats??? why do unionist politicians ignore paid british killers who have murdered over 30 people since the loyalist ceasefire. why do the unionist politicians meet with killers who havent handed over a bullet yet demand the i.r.a. take all their clothes off for the world to see?
    But incase of any confusion no unionist politician has demanded and supported and acted on ANY of the loyalist killings of their “own” community!!

  • Biff1

    I will will look with interest at the reply’s to this post as criticism of loyalism in general [on any occasions ]is usually minimal.
    biff1.`

  • It was Sammy Mc Nally what done it

    Turgon,

    I appreciate you take a principled stand on these matters.

    Sometimes the line between paramilitarism and constitutional politics is a thin one. We only have to remember Robbo with his Red berret thrashing around with a stick in the middle of the night in county Cavan to reiniforce that.

    This is/was an abnormal society where the behaviour of the state often fell below that of the insurgents and if Robbo the Red Beret is a part of moving that along then subject to some of the warnings in your post then luck to him.

    I’m sure Robbo will have briefed them on progress on Police and Justice and reminded them that their former adversaries (the Provos) will be now firmly inside the tent pissing out on them if they dont soon change their ways.

  • Militant Tendency

    Turgon,

    Good article and an interesting analysis.

    There is one glaring error though. Margaret Ritchie has not stopped anyone getting any money. The CTI scheme continues to be fully paid and all staff continue to work. This may have been unreported but I am assured that this is true. More than that I understand that members of the Department of Social Development have been negotiating with staff to continue the scheme in an attempt to ward off the court case. So far from stopping the money they have offered more!!

  • truth and justice

    TURGON IT IS GREAT TO HAVE SUCH HIGH STANDARDS BUT HOW DO YOU DEAL WITH THESE PEOPLE AND HOW DOES THE TUV DEAL WITH CLIFFORD PEABLES AND MARK HARBINSON IN YOUR RANKS?

  • Ulsters my homeland

    This is truely a sad day for Ulster. Robinson’s pandering to loyalist terrorists simply legalises IRA/Sinn Fein’s atrocities and position in government. Does Robinson want the Unionist community to lower their standards because the majority of Irish Catholics lowered theirs by voting for Republican terrorists? Why do law abiding citizens have to suffer because a level playing field in desired?

    If there’s anything good to come out of this pandering to loyalist terrorists, it will come from those in the Irish Catholic community who oppose such appeasement. Protestant concerns never get noticed unless Catholics take up the mantle, so hopefully if they voice their concern (just like we have against republican murderers in government), the decent folk in N.Ireland society can uphold the full riggers of the law.

  • Steve

    UMH
    The unionist electorate’s hands are no cleaner then SF’s voters hands. Just because you like to think so does not make it so. every vote for uup or dup is a vote for terorists as much as any vote for SF is.

    DUP with a nudge and wink were the mouth pieces for loyal;ist paramilitaries

    UUP were the very face of state sponsored terrorism

  • Uslsters my homeland

    “[i]The unionist electorate’s hands are no cleaner then SF’s voters hands. Just because you like to think so does not make it so. every vote for uup or dup is a vote for terorists as much as any vote for SF is. “[/i]

    Go wind your neck in Steve. The UUP were never associated with loyalist terror, and although the DUP was associated with Ulster resistance, there was never any associated with murder gangs.

    “[i]DUP with a nudge and wink were the mouth pieces for loyal;ist paramilitaries”[/i]

    Good conspiracy theory Steve. Can’t say the same about IRA/Sinn Fein.

    “[i]UUP were the very face of state sponsored terrorism”[/i]

    Bollocks, you republicans only try to blacken others in order to justify the campaign of murder and mayhem leased upon the good Ulster folk. Go and crawl under the hole you came from and give the citizens of N.Ireland the chance to life their lives in peace, without all this terrorist appeasment nonscence. Go take a run and jump, noone wants your kind any more.

  • dub

    DUP’s relationship with loyalist terrorism was on full view with that councillor in Antrim saying that the lcoal sinn fein councillor who has received death threats deserved them becuase of her “provocative” view that erecting massive bonfires with symbols preaching “kill all taigs” is wrong.

    Turgon,

    I note your high principle but also note your COMPLETE FAILURE to ever respond when people bring up the charming characters of Pastor Peeples and Mark Harbinson.

  • Turgon

    dub,
    Mark Harbinson as far as I can see is a highly unpleasant individual. I do not know the ins and outs of his activities but I condemn utterly the things he has been alledged to be involved in.

    I believe Clifford Peebles has been in prison for criminal activity: activity I condemn unreservedly. I do not know what he is up to now.

    Personally I think that released criminals can and should get a second chance but I also think it is much the best if those who have been imprisoned for terrorist / political typed crime then steer well clear of politics. I would personally suggest that the likes of Pastor Peebles would now be best employed preaching the gospel: a gospel which offers forgiveness to those who repent and that he would be well advised to have little or nothing to do with active politics.

  • Steve

    umh

    It was the good folks of ulster that unleashed a campaign of terror on an unsuspecting Nationalist population in 1966

    But you like to conveniantly forget that fact

  • runciter

    N.Ireland society can uphold the full riggers of the law.

    Fantastic.

  • Mark McGregor

    Absolutely no mention or interest in loyalist decommissioning. Same old, same old from the DUP. One rule for dealing with republicans, no rules for their engagements with unionist armed gangs.

  • Ulsters my homeland

    “[i]It was the good folks of ulster that unleashed a campaign of terror on an unsuspecting Nationalist population in 1966

    But you like to conveniantly forget that fact”[/i]

    It wasn’t The UUP or the DUP or any other law-abiding political party who murdered the first person of the troubles. GET YOUR FACTS RIGHT. You lot will try to blacken the good folks of Ulster (politicians an all) with the scum that is loyalist paramilitaries + Republican terrorism, simply because you want to bring the law abiding section of N.Ireland’s population down to your standards.

    The decent people of N.Ireland do not consider loyalist paramilitaries as vote worthy and they see Republican paramilitaries in the same manner, hopefully the decent Catholics in N.Ireland can see there isn’t as big a sectarian divide as the media projects.

    So, I repeat the need for Catholics to come out against this current appeasement of loyalist terror, since it takes a Catholic to get anything to happen in this place. Help us, we can’t do it ourselves.

  • old timer

    The question has been asked how to deal with these people. The usual DUP method was to join them on mountain tops waving firearm certificates and marching with them through towns and villages with red berets on. They occasionally went over the border to seize the odd town and managed to get their then deputy leader thrown into jail!

  • Steve

    UMH

    I know the only way nIreland works is if unionism has lily white hands …… they don’t!!! They have every bit as much blood on them as nationalists have, its precisely why nIreland doesn’t work.

    Nationalists accept for the blood for the most part, they aren’t proud of it but they accept it

    Unionists like you are in complete denial and won’t accept that your side was as dirty as theirs

    Hiding behind the thin veneer of voting records doesn’t change the reality of the situation or Comrade Stalin reaaly was the most popular leader of mother Russia

  • LURIG

    It’s NO surprise that the most telling & important contribution on this thread, Gareth McCord’s, has been TOTALLY ignored by most posters. This was a Protestant family who suffered and are still being threatened by these same loyalist killers that the DUP is meeting. They were ignored by Unionist politicians because there was NO political capital to be made by Unionists in their son’s murder and the fact that it ALSO opened a Pandora’s Box and shone a light into British State collusion. Gareth is quite correct, that is a world that not only engulfs Loyalist paramilitaries, it ALSO embraces ALL shades of Unionism. There are MOST definately Unionist politicians STILL in the pay of the British Intelligence Agencies and acting as their mouthpieces. There are also those within Unionism who are also STILL entwined in the dark world of Loyalism too and it is a place that the Unionist community, bar brave families like the McCord’s, wants to ignore. The fact that they continue to get away with their stinking hypocrisy says it ALL about the weak nature and meak compliance of well paid, psychophantic, Stormont obsessed monkey Nationalist politicians who dance to the organ grinder Robinson’s DUP tune. There are so many double standards going on in this rotten Process and this is just one of them.

  • Turgon, the notion of Peter Robinson following in the footsteps of John Hume is an interesting one. However, the US envoy wouldn’t have the same leverage with the loyalist paramilitaries as he/she had with the republican ones.

    Lurig, you only have to look at the behaviour of President McAleese to see how the UK and Irish political establishments have availed of the services of selected members of the paramilitary mafia to control local communities.

  • dub

    Turgon,

    Fair play to you.

  • Realist

    “I believe Clifford Peebles has been in prison for criminal activity: activity I condemn unreservedly. I do not know what he is up to now”

    Wasn’t he playing Pastor Begby in Give My Head Peace until recently?

  • Sam Graham

    It is true the DUP are now acting duplicitly in negotiating.

    However, to try an equate the centuries old Catholic ambivalence to murdering their Protestant neighbours with DUP’s flirtation with Ulster Resistance is laughable.

    Catholics do hate Protestants, support those who murder Protestants, bury Protestant murderers with honour in their churches, celebrate masses each year in honour of Protestant murderers, name their sporting arenas after Protestant murderers, vote for a gang of Protestant murderers, march in favour of Protestant murderers – need I go on…

    A quick perusal of the sermons and photographs at the Funeral of Protestant murderers from Loughgall or the Hunger Strikers should be enough to suffice as primary evidence coupled with SF voting records. Did anyone mention Kingsmill, Tullyvallen, Shankill, Gillian Johnstone etc?

    My relatives are from Rosslea – the last Protestant shopkeeper Douglas Deering was murdered 30 years ago by Republican Hero the late Seamus McElwaine! Ironically Douglas Deering was a Plymouth Brethren Sunday School elder who ran the local Hall and did not even vote. His business was rapidly taken over by you know who. Bosnia has nothing on the good bigotted Catholics of Rosslea!

    Yes, I know not all Catholics are total bigots – we have a minority of decent folk in the Alliance or UUP but the remarkable thing is that so many paint Unionism in dark colours while behaving in a way that brings shame to any civilization in any era.

    Those are the facts – spin them how you wilt but the MAN above will judge and reveal them all one day publicly no matter what the Bearded One and his wilkipedia friends at the Vatican do.

    Please do not engage in mopery or ad hominen as I will simply dig up the facts and quotes which are not in dispute!

  • RepublicanStones

    ‘Please do not engage in mopery’

    No need as you provided one of the best examples I have ever seen on Slinging MeTool.
    Oh and for the last time (hopefully) Kingsmill had Kitson stamped all over it !

  • steve

    Sam you are a funny wee man, transpose the words catholic and protestant and it would be just as true

  • Stephen

    Catholics do hate Protestants??

    I never really post up here, being entertained as I am by what gets written in these columns, however this got to me.

    Catholics do not hate Protestants. Republican bigots hate Protestants in the same way that Loyalist bigots hate Catholics, although it must be said Loyalist hatred has always been much more overt, if no less terrible. I didn’t think that this needed to be said out loud, but there you go.

    Being a Catholic does not automatically mean being in support of dissident republican terrorism. Being a Catholic doesn’t even necessarily mean being a republican at all, or even a nationalist, in the same way one would never assume that a protestant is automatically a loyalist paramilitary supporter or even a loyalist or a unionist. This kind of ignorant, badly informed, callous and wreckless tarring all with one brush is as much part of the problem as any unsurrendered bullet or gun.

    As for the DUP pretending to give a shit? Risible beyond belief. It was well pointed out that they require the PIRA to stand bollock naked for all to see but don’t make any demand from the Loyalist fraternity.

  • Ulsters my homeland

    “[i]Being a Catholic does not automatically mean being in support of dissident republican terrorism. Being a Catholic doesn’t even necessarily mean being a republican at all, or even a nationalist, in the same way one would never assume that a protestant is automatically a loyalist paramilitary supporter or even a loyalist or a unionist. This kind of ignorant, badly informed, callous and wreckless tarring all with one brush is as much part of the problem as any unsurrendered bullet or gun. “[/i]

    Very true Stephen, but the fact remains the majority of Catholic in N.Ireland vote for Republican terrorists.

  • Steve

    UMH

    Its also true that the majority of protestants vote for unionist terrorists

  • Stephen

    Very true Stephen, but the fact remains the majority of Catholic in N.Ireland vote for Republican terrorists

    And seemingly the majority or Protestants vote for intransigent bigots. I agree with what you are saying but we do have a stalemate of sorts in Stormont. The point scoring could go on for ever, whataboutery I think I have heard it called, but it gets nothing done. Here is the bottom line. What happens if the PIRA army council does disband? Would it be enough for the DUP or would they yet again put up more obstacles? And when will they start to be as uncompromisingly demanding of disarmamnet from the Loyalists? The difference in demands from dissident republican organisations almost makes one consider the possibility that there is support for Loyalist terrorism. We see them trip over each other to condemn Republican acts, but they remain quiet on the subject of loyalist acts until asked, and then the condemnations do seem somewhat reticent, comparitively speaking.

  • Danny O’Connor

    I believe that the DUP were right to take whatever action they felt would ensure that there are no more victims of these groups,they should have done it years ago.
    I wonder how many young and women joined these organisations after listening to inflammitory speeches by so called respectable politicians.

  • Steve

    Danny
    It would be my guess that they mostly joined after inflamatory speaches by unionist politicians and vile acts of state sponsored terrorism

    Its a known fact that the IRA was defunct for all intents and purposes until Bloody Sunday

  • Sam Graham

    Stephen

    We do not have a moral equivalence here.

    Protestants have never voted in large numbers for Catholic killers, attended their funerals, marched on the streets for them, and name me the last Protestant minister who openly compared a UVF/UFF terrorist to a saint in heaven, numbered with angels etc as their Roman Priest counterparts have done on myriad occasions.

    Could you also explain why Bobby Sands died clutching the Rosary Beads sent over by the Pope especially for their acclaimed son of the Church whose sole accomplishment was to murder Protestants and starve himself to death by suicide?

    I am not surprised that catholics here are desperately trying to distance themselves from the facts of their “holy faith” and fellow coreligionists. However, any objective observer can discern that the most sectarian, bloodthirsty group consistently have been the majority of the RC community.

    There were open unionist terrorists standing in elections called the UDP and PUP. They lost their deposits in most places. So stop repeating your rather lame and puerile propaganda.

    FACTS are FACTS

  • Veritas

    “DUP’s flirtation with Ulster Resistance”

    Sorry Sam you forgot about their flirtation with Billy Wright.

    And wasn’t it the late David Ervine (then UVF) who was so familiar with the colour of the wallpaper in their homes.

    As Peter himself once said , if you lie down with dogs……..

  • Ulsters my homeland

    [i]The point scoring could go on for ever, whataboutery I think I have heard it called, but it gets nothing done.”[/i]

    Stephen you can’t compare Protestants voting for the DUP in the same bracket as Catholics voting for IRA/Sinn Fein. It is not whataboutery to compare the two. If the majority of Protestants voted for the UDA/UDP or the UVF/PUP then you can compare like with like.

  • Steve

    We do not have a moral equivalence here.

    Protestants have never voted in large numbers for Catholic killers, attended their funerals, marched on the streets for them,

    This utter trype

    You can tell yourself that at night so you can sleep but when the dawn comes open your eyes and admit that unionism was formed on the basis of terrorism and has always maintained a terrorist arm. Usually in uniform but terrorists none the less

  • Ulsters my homeland

    “Its a known fact that the IRA was defunct for all intents and purposes until Bloody Sunday”[/i]

    Why were they there on Bloody Sunday if they were defunct?

    “It would be my guess that they mostly joined after inflamatory speaches by unionist politicians and vile acts of state sponsored terrorism ”

    So there was no IRA until Unionist politicians spoke out against them? It doesn’t add up Steve!

  • Veritas

    “However, any objective observer can discern that the most sectarian, bloodthirsty group consistently have been the majority of the RC community.”

    The thing is Sam, we Catholics, having lived on this island long before your ancestors fled Scotland under threat of hanging(FACTs are FACTS,) have longer memories.

    When you say “sectarian” we think DUP. “Bloodthirsty” brings to mind Cromwell, the Shankill Butchers (UVF), LVF, Greysteel (UDA).

  • Ulsters my homeland

    “[i]unionism was formed on the basis of terrorism and has always maintained a terrorist arm.”[/i]

    You need to clarify if you’re talking about Irish Unionism (which was supported by many United Irishmen after 1801) or Ulster Unionism after the creation of N.Ireland.

    If it’s the latter, to which I would hazard a guess, please show proof that Ulster Unionism ‘was formed on the basis of terrorism and has always maintained a terrorist arm’?

    [remember terrorist arm does not equate to police force] Just incase you got the two mixed up

  • Ulsters my homeland

    “[i]The thing is Sam, we Catholics, having lived on this island long before your ancestors fled Scotland under threat of hanging(FACTs are FACTS,) have longer memories.”[/i]

    You weren’t Roman Catholics until the Pope gave the island to King Henry II (12th century) on condition that he suppressed the ancient Celtic (Culdee) Church.

  • Veritas

    “You weren’t Roman Catholics until the Pope gave the island to King Henry II (12th century)”

    Yes, the island, not just part of it. Welcome to your Roman Catholic Ulster Homeland.

  • Steve

    You need to clarify if you’re talking about Irish Unionism (which was supported by many United Irishmen after 1801) or Ulster Unionism after the creation of N.Ireland.

    nIreland or ulster unionism (bullshit term as its not ulster) was formed on the basis of armed threat against the duly constituted government by the protestant population, the very definition of terrorism as you spout it.

    please show proof that Ulster Unionism ‘was formed on the basis of terrorism(done and I mean done baby) and has always maintained a terrorist arm’?

    [remember terrorist arm does not equate to police force] Just incase you got the two mixed up

    When you use the police to terrorize the population then they are terrorists uniform or not. ruc, bspecials and any of the other alphabet killers of protestant infamy are terrorists and there is simply no justification for calling them anything else. the ruc was the moral equivalent of the uda

  • Steve

    Why were they there on Bloody Sunday if they were defunct?

    They weren’t it was a complete attempt at lying to cover the government terrorists asses, no one has ever produced a single viable piece of evidence about the outlandish claims of the killers of students and children

    So there was no IRA until Unionist politicians spoke out against them? It doesn’t add up Steve!

    Nice try at obfuscation either you are will fully dumb or just naturally

  • cynic

    “The thing is Sam, we Catholics, having lived on this island long before your ancestors fled Scotland under threat of hanging(FACTs are FACTS,) have longer memories”

    … and genetics are genetics and no your ancestors werent here first. Its all a lot more complex than that and there is no real genetic difference between us. It’s all a cultural difference and about who we choose to believe we are rather than than where we really come from.

    “My Da’s family wuz here longer than ur Da’s” just doesnt work.

  • cynic

    “the Pope gave the island to King Henry II ”

    So, as the Pope is infallible, did he ever formally agree that England should give part of it up?

    Did he make a mistake in asking the English to impose the ‘one true church’ on its inhabitants, with all that followed?

    Was it all OK up to the point when Henry VIII embraced Protestantism (as well as few other things)?

    This history malarkey is challenging and complex once you get into it, isn’t it.

  • Same old

    “Its a known fact that the IRA was defunct for all intents and purposes until Bloody Sunday”

    Bullshit. Almost one hundred people had been killed by the PIRA between 1970 and 1972.

  • Stephen

    However, any objective observer can discern that the most sectarian, bloodthirsty group consistently have been the majority of the RC community.

    Complete and utter bigoted bilge. Which doesn’t address my point either. When will the DUP be as vitriolic in their demands for Loyalist paramilitary arms as the are with dissident republican arms, or is it simply the case that loyalist terrorism is accepted?

  • Ulsters my homeland

    ‘You weren’t Roman Catholics until the Pope gave the island to King Henry II (12th century)’

    “[i]Yes, the island, not just part of it. Welcome to your Roman Catholic Ulster Homeland.”[/i]

    LOL you dip-stick, Veritas. It was the pope who gave your island over to those who you would class as your enemies for 800 years, yet you failed to see your spiritual masters (Rome) as having anything to do with your downfall.

  • Steve

    Bullshit. Almost one hundred people had been killed by the PIRA between 1970 and 1972.

    Posted by Same old on Sep 08, 2008 @ 05:52 PM

    Then tell me why are the IRA really the PIRA

  • Colm

    “county Cavan”

    Don’t you people know anything about the goegraphy of Ulster?

  • Ulsters my homeland

    “[i]nIreland or ulster unionism (bullshit term as its not ulster) was formed on the basis of [u]armed threat[/u] against the duly constituted government by the protestant population, the very definition of terrorism as you spout it.”[/i]

    Nonscence. Those in Ulster of Unionist persuation were not guranteed that their religious and civil freedom would remain intact if and when home rule was passed. It was the British government who were breaking the law, not the Ulster Unionists.

    “[i]When you use the police to terrorize the population then they are terrorists uniform or not. ruc, bspecials and any of the other alphabet killers of protestant infamy are terrorists and there is simply no justification for calling them anything else. the ruc was the moral equivalent of the uda “[/i]

    Steve, will you grow up about the police, RUC, B-specials, etc, etc. They weren’t created to help Republican rebels destroy the country they got paid to protect. Comprende?

  • Same Old

    Steve I really don’t follow you here, but I think you are getting Bloody Sunday which took place in 1972 mixed up with the street riots and I ran away sorta stuff that took place in 1969 before the IRA split.

  • Steve

    UMH
    they protected the Catholic population by killing them and burning their property? Geez I am Glad the RCMP weren’t as effective at protecting me!!!

    Same Old
    Same symptoms

  • RepublicanStones

    ‘It was the British government who were breaking the law, not the Ulster Unionists.’

    So illegally importing weapons isn’t illeagl?
    Also please elaborate as to exactly what law the British were breaking if they had of recognised the democratic will of the people of ireland?

  • Paul

    “Nonscence. Those in Ulster of Unionist persuation were not guranteed that their religious and civil freedom would remain intact if and when home rule was passed. It was the British government who were breaking the law, not the Ulster Unionists”

    Idiot, total idiot.

  • Pounder

    One really needs to look at the facts. Fact one, the IRA in what ever form handed in a significant amount of weapons. Fact two, the IRA haven’t bombed nor shot anyone in quite a while. Fact three, loyalist paramilitaries haven’t handed in a thing, not even a bloody butter knife. As much as I don’t like Republicanism, they certainly have done what was asked of them, that last part about the big boss men in charge of the IRA is just a smoke screen to save face with their electorate.

  • Veritas

    “It was the pope who gave your island over to those who you would class as your enemies for 800 years, yet you failed to see your spiritual masters (Rome) as having anything to do with your downfall”.

    800 years and counting….

    England the enemy who sent the banished Scot to do HIS masters bidding.

  • pfhl

    why do people bother keep responding to UMH? We seem to get the same from Sam Graham. They do nothing but rant about how bad catholics are. They talk utter balls and never debate the subject.

    To be fair to UMH this time he has disagreed with robinson’s stance meaning he has actually refered to the subject in question for once. Not that I agree with him.

    Catholics hate protestants, protestants hate catholics we have all heard it on here before. Sam Graham where did your original post come from? It is totally unrelated to the subject in question.

    Back to the question as I don’t want to be a hypocrite. I will not get tied up in the hypocrisy of the DUP as I am sure many laughed when they saws this news story. This is a positive move by Robinson if as well as discussing common community problems with loyalism, he has laid down the law and made it clear criminality must stop. Guns must be handed over or the reaction to any non action will be a public endorsement from the DUP for the PSNI to become heavy handed with these loyalist thugs who choose to remain as drug dealers and other criminals. I say fair play to any unionists who turn their backs on criminality and actually try to help their communities. It is not much to expect but if it happens, it is positive. Will there be any puclic statements telling loyalists to decommission or else from Robinson? I don’t think so though I hope he does. Maybe they should be a problem for a policing and justice minister? If we ever get one, that is.

  • Paul McMahon

    “Protestants have never voted in large numbers for Catholic killers, attended their funerals, marched on the streets for them, and name me the last Protestant minister who openly compared a UVF/UFF terrorist to a saint in heaven, numbered with angels etc as their Roman Priest counterparts have done on myriad occasions.

    Could you also explain why Bobby Sands died clutching the Rosary Beads sent over by the Pope especially for their acclaimed son of the Church whose sole accomplishment was to murder Protestants and starve himself to death by suicide”?

    There’s a few things I’d like to say here Sam so indulge me for a wee while. I’m not really into that angels, saints mumbo jumbo but, regarding all that Priestly stuff I’ve never heard any RC Priest compare any dead IRA member to such beings. Now, maybe I’m wrong on this point but I’d be obliged if you would post some credible links, [mind you I said credible, not that howl’in at the moon stuff], to verify your accusations?

    Regarding attendance at Catholic killers funerals. Just who were those thousands who attended the funerals of Brian Robinson, Basher Bates, Billy Wright, John Gregg, Trevor King, Joe Bratty, Snowy Elder etc?, surely they can’t all have been Papists?. And who was it that conducted the funeral services for UDR /UVF Catholic killers Horace Boyle & Weslley Somerville? Oh, while were at it, just how many “respectable Unionist” politicians paid respects at the house of, and attended the funeral of, sectarian death squad leader John Bingham? And, if the Unionist electorate are so fine and morally upstanding, why weren’t these “respectable” Unionist leaders punished by their morally devout electorate for attending the funeral of / commiserating the death of a dead UVF Catholic killing gang leader?

    I also have never heard of Bobby Sands actually murdering Protestants. Some verifiable links to these accusations would also be welcome. Regarding that Rosary Beads stuff I can’t answer, I suggest that you contact a rich old man in Rome.

    Facts are indeed facts Sammy my boyo, and you seem to be largely devoid of them.

  • pfhl

    It was the pope who gave your island over to those who you would class as your enemies for 800 years, yet you failed to see your spiritual masters (Rome) as having anything to do with your downfall”

    I could not help responding to this. UMH, who in hell cares what a pope has advised 800 years ago other than a Vatican historian? It plays as much part in my thinking as another pope’s support for king billy. Some relevant dicussion please I am sure if you try hard enough you will be able to read a sentence and respond to it rather than your usual anti-catholic rants.

  • Interesting article from Turgon.

    Is there any reason why the DUP should not not only meet with the policing authorities and English ministers to demand tougher action against Loyalist terrorists who refuse to decommission, but also meet with said terrorists (or their representatives) and demand that they give up their weapons and their parasitic activities?

    Why must it be one or the other? Or, as it has been for far too long, neither?

  • Earnan

    Wow. as someone who has spent most of his life in the States let me break it to all of you bigots on here. The vast majority of people who know anything about Northern ireland are all sympathetic to the Catholic population. Any objective historian or observer can easily see the murderous discrimination against Catholics in Northern Ireland since the time of cromwell. Trying to blame everything on the Catholic community because of the excesses of the PIRA doesn’t change hundrends of years of history.

    There are plenty of places in this world were different religions live together just fine. (see, Republic of Ireland). But the ulster protestants did not want to lose their rung in the social ladder and thus forcibly kept the Catholics down at the bottom. That is why the troubles broke out.

    Who did Bobby Sands murder???

  • Ulsters my homeland

    [i]”UMH, who in hell cares what a pope has advised 800 years ago other than a Vatican historian?”[/i]

    That’s exactly the problem pfhl. The failure to understand or expose the real trouble maker on this isle, only serves to blame others for all the problems.

    As for Bobby Sands clutching Rosary Beads sent over by the Pope, I think it was a crucifix. There could have been beads attached, but the Pope got crucifixs made up for the hunger strikers to show his support in the suicide.

  • Paul McMahon

    “The Pope got crucifixs made up for the hunger strikers to show his support in the suicide”

    Am unaware of this one UMH, could you post credible links for verification please?

  • gareth mccord

    u.m.h.
    what do you think of the unionist politicians and what they have done for ulster in the last 30 years?
    do you think that the british governments we have had during the conflict have protected and served the people of ulster well?