Eamon got it right

In my earlier post about sporting loyalties, my comment has attracted attention:

My definition of an NI liberal incidentally is someone who wants the Republic (when it is the Republic only) to come in second and even sometimes first. An NI bigot is one who wants the Republic to come in last.

I’ve just remembered the most memorable comment ever on the subject, from sports lover Eamon McCann – ideologically consistent, but just a wee bit unexpected. It was on that day in 2005 when my daughter and I were in her London flat with her English mates watching Northern Ireland vs England at Windsor Park, remember? We ended up on the floor screaming. Not usually like me, I can tell you. Anyway, here’s Eamon’s wonderfully generous piece in full text. Inscribe it on your hearts.

Rooting for England

(Eamonn McCann, Sunday Journal)

“Here’s hoping England give Norn Iron a good spanking,” Andersonstown News editor Robin Livingstone breathed a fervent wish at the beginning of the week.

Many Nationalists across the North will have been wholly in agreement. Few will be fooled by ex-post-facto claims of satisfaction that, in the wondrous event, it was England took the spanking…. Certain politicians pressed for a quote on Thursday morning made the best they could of their sad situation. Those who’d most fanatically hoped to see the North hammered were the ones with rictus grins now affixed to their faces as they forced themselves to say, sure, they were pleased the oul’ enemy had left chastened and chased, with a flea in the ear and no points in the bag.

At the beginning of the week I took part in a handful of radio programmes in which I expressed my hope-against-hope that Lawrie’s lads would eviscerate the Brit mixum-gatherum of millionaire mediocrities. One common Nationalist reaction was sheer incredulity. Ah, come on, you can’t mean it…

Dunphy, Dunseith and Cooper separately suggested there was a stark contradiction here: militant Nationalists cheering on England (never-ending source of all our ills, and so forth) against an Irish eleven.

Maybe. And maybe not.

Take a closer look at Robin Livingstone’s rant.

He would be disappointed, he reckoned, if “the bottomless pit of enmity and the cavernous morass of malice that I bear towards Our Wee Pravince has not by this time articulated itself to everyone who knows me.”

The scornful mimicry of a supposedly distinctive Protestant/Unionist accent may not be as bad-minded as Bernard Manning jeering at the speech-patterns of “Pakis.” The Andytown editor won’t have seen it like that. But the parallels are close enough to be concerning.

Recalling “a flight attendant with a Ballymena accent” welcoming passengers to “Northern Ireland,” Livingstone, “looked up from my book and fired off a dirty look (which) went fizzing past her averted head like a badly-aimed RPG.” We won’t ponder the significance of that choice of simile, for fear of being driven to a disturbing conclusion, but might wonder instead at the derisive reference, again, to an assumed Prod/Unionist accent.

I have a minibus load of nieces from Ballymena. Brilliant broad Ballymena accents, every one of them, that they are not the slightest bit coy about. But I hope they take care to speak sotto voce in the vicinity of Robin Livingstone. He might fire off only verbal missiles. But you never know how others within hearing range might opt to ape him.

“The dread words ‘Northern Ireland’ never pass my lips,” he continued. ” I physically wince every time I hear them.”

Does he now? He must do an awful lot of wincing.

What’s the name of the Assembly the Andytown News is mad keen to see up and running again? The Northern Ireland Assembly.

What Executive did politicians the ‘paper admires serve in with distinction? The Northern Ireland Executive.

What police force has Robin Livingstone’s preferred party pledged to endorse as soon as a few changes (NOT including a name-change) are in place? The Police Service of Northern Ireland.

Strange as it might seem to mainstream broadcasters, the attitudes aren’t contradictory, but complementary.

It’s because some Nationalists are uneasy at their own acceptance of Northern Ireland that they feel they have to make a show of rhetorical opposition to it.

It is because, in practical terms, they have endorsed the legitimacy of the Northern Ireland State that they denounce symbolic representations of it all the more loudly.

The campaign to obliterate Northern Ireland having halted, they turn to battle on who’ll rule the roost within it. Communal hostility replaces the struggle for an all-Ireland. This is a pattern of play which corresponds ever more closely with the political mind-set of the Mad Mullahs of Orangeism.

It’s in this context that militant Nationalism comes to be expressed in a desire to see blue noses ground into the dirt, even by Brits. In fact, especially by Brits.

It is now the main perspective of a growing tendency within Nationalism that a united Ireland can best and maybe only be brought about by England hammering the Prods until they see that there’s no point persisting with, as Robin Livingstone would put it, Our Wee Pravince, and reconcile themselves instead to an all-Ireland arrangement.

It makes sense for such Nationalists to roar England on as they suppress Northern Ireland.

Except that it didn’t work out like that at all, did it? Nor will it in the real world.

Wonderful result at Windsor on Wednesday. Pity the Free State let us down But shouldn’t we be used to that, too, by now?

September 12, 2005
________________

This article appeared in the September 11, 2005 edition of the Sunday Journal.

  • Mark McGregor

    Funny enough we discussed this three year old article, um, three years ago:

    http://www.sluggerotoole.com/archives/2005/09/how_republicans.php

  • DK

    Never did like that squinter – all his articles in the ATN I ever read were so bitter and violent that it would count as incitement to racial hatred in any other newspaper.

  • Wub Webmadge

    Northern Ireland still is not a state.

  • sneakers otoole

    Eamonn McCann’s always a good read, even if I don’t agree with a lot of what he says.

    In this case, I know plenty of taigs, myself included, who like to see norn iron do well. I wouldn’t call myself a “supporter” per se, but then I’m not really a “supporter” of any club team either.

    BTW off topic a bit, but for any of you who haven’t read “War and an Irish Town”, give it a go. Probably the best book on the outbreak of the troubles I’ve read, with tonnes of detail on the start of the civil rights movement that has been forgotten by many.

  • DK

    “Northern Ireland still is not a state”

    Correct, it’s a football team.

    Can someone start a thread on the Newsletters front page headline that there should be a new Northern Ireland football anthem after the NI supporters were slegged by the Scots for having to use GSTQ.

    What would nationalists like to see – those that can be persuaded. “There’s only one Ireland” comments or suggestions that the RoI anthem be used are unhelpful. I mean, if you can share stormount with the prods, surely you can share the football team – nats used to support it, maybe they can again.

  • eranu

    there are more than a few biter and twisted people in NI on both sides. ive often thought that they actually need psychological treatment or some sort of counciling. havent we all read or heard something and thought ‘hes Fing mad!!’ ?they certainly shouldnt get a job in a newspaper.

    think about the sort of thoughts that would be going round the head of a biter republican or biter loyalist. everything seen through an us and them sectarian hate filter. theres political beliefs etc and then theres mental problems.
    i honestly think people like that should be considered to have a mental illness. perhaps with councilling sessions they might be able to rid themselves of that thinking. Its like some sort of obsessive compulsive disorder…

  • Yellowford

    For nationalists, GTSQ is untenable, especially when Scotland and Wales don’t use it. I wouldn’t expect Unionist Northern Ireland fans to accept Amhrán na bhFiann so Londonderry Air/Danny Boy probably should be enough to placate both sides.

  • It was Sammy McNally what done it

    Would someone* who posted the following apalling, etc anti-australian comment “…and the British achievement is one in the eye for the Ozzies as the BBC’s Nick Bryant reported” also be bigoted under the definition?

    *Posted on SluggerMeTool by a certain Brian Walker on Aug 19, 2008 @ 10:32 AM – who by a strange coincidence shares his name with Bri above.

  • DK

    sammy – if you bothered reading the article Brian linked to, it was all about how the aussies are reacting with such dismay at coming second to GB – it making headlines there – while all we have heard from the GB media is pride at coming 3rd, not “yay we’re beating the frogs” or whatever.

  • susan

    How about “Sweet Caroline” or “Dirty Old Town”? Yes, I realise there are certain inconsistencies in both suggestions, but both would guarantee the side never, ever, ever being outsung again.

  • WindsorRocker

    I would accept a change in anthem if the English also got rid of GSTQ for their games……

    The the 4 parts of the UK would have their own anthems, and for state occasions etc we would use GSTQ for the anthem of our United Kingdom.

    A unilateral move to get rid of GSTQ couldn’t be sold to a large swathe of NI support…..

    As a Northern ireland fan, I have to say that I normally wish BOTH England and the ROI ill will in any football tournament or match. It has nothing to do with their nationality but more to do with the fact that I hate the way Northern irish media go on about both teams as if they were ours when clearly they are not.

  • It was Sammy McNally what done it

    DK,

    Yes – I did read it – making fun of their press is one thing but I sincerley hope you are not trying to justify the dreadfully jingoistic line “…and the British achievement is one in the eye for the Ozzies as the BBC’s Nick Bryant reported” which seems to be revelling in the mistfortune if not the maiming of others – shame.

    Or perhaps such stuff is not to be fretted over and those who are so liberal in their charges of bigotry should loosen up a bit.

  • Dave

    Being somewhat cynical, I’d be more inclined to the view that the anti-state rhetoric from media hacks aligned to pro-state parties is more to do with propaganda that facilitates constituency-management rather than psychodynamics. The Shinners are just tools of the British state, whose only remaining useful function to their masters is to integrate the formerly disenfranchised militant nationalists into the reformed political system in NI. I say ‘only remaining’ because their deployment to perform their other useful function of proffering a pro-British unified state as devised in the GFA as a fallback position if NI ‘goes native’ is unlikely to ever be required.

    The Shinners and their paymasters really destroyed those poor people, erasing any prospect of a united Ireland. And why indeed would they even want to unite with a country that they dismiss as the ‘free state’ and which they regard as having abandoned them? Just for a victory over the prods, and a victory (revenge) over the Republic. Yet it was they who failed to keep faith with the Republic and its strategy of constitutional republicanism; and had they kept that faith, they’d probably be in a united Ireland by now rather than formally renouncing their right to self-determination and accepting the constitutional legitimacy of partition.

    They can cheer on those who wish to destroy NI on the football fields and such safe proxies, but in the real world, they vote for those who consolidated the union. Destruction is fine and dandy, but just as long as it doesn’t involve self-destruction: “Brits out – but not if I lose my job.”

  • billie-Joe Remarkable

    Oh, for fuckk’s sake.

    “Inscribe it on your hearts”? “Shove it up your bollocks!”

    I do not support them because of the right-wing, UFF scarf-wearing, UVF banner-waving, Rangers top-wearing, National Front-chanting, Linfield fans – and England fans – who support Northern Ireland still support them. I do not support them because, historically, my support would not be welcome by many of the people who go to Windsor. And I do not support them as I feel that my life would be in danger in Windsor Park – hardly conducive to a fun day out.

    More positively, I do support a team which seems not to have a black heart. I do not believe that fans of the Republic create the poisonous atmosphere that often exists in Windsor Park.

    Eamonn mcCann makes some valid points. I agree with many of them but I doubt that either of us could go to Windsor and wear, say, a Celtic top. But many fans wear Rangers jerseys. I notice, too, that NI supporters clubs are all in loyalist areas. Again, I would feel unwelcome.

    It is telling that when someone wrote a play about Northern Ireland the result was A Night in November. When a play was written about the Republic it was I, Keano. Says a lot, really.

  • billie-Joe Remarkable

    “We ended up on the floor screaming. Not usually like me, I can tell you.”

    What on earth were you doing?

  • Dave

    They probably just got the quotes back for the wedding. If you were retired on a BBC pension, you’d scream too.

  • DK

    “NI supporters clubs are all in loyalist areas.”

    Shaftesbury Square?

  • Pete Baker

    “Eamon got it right”

    He certainly did, Brian.

    Touch a nerve there, b-JR?

    “a flight attendant with a Ballymena accent” welcoming passengers to “Northern Ireland,” Livingstone, “looked up from my book and fired off a dirty look (which) went fizzing past her averted head like a badly-aimed RPG.”

    Well, how very dare she!!

    Clearly deserving of “a dirty look”.

    She should have said “the Six Counties”.. in a west Belfast accent.

    This tendency to imagine that, if you wish hard enough, really really hard enough, Northern Ireland [i.e the border] doesn’t actually exist.. it’s a political psychosis that does nothing for anyone’s long-term mental health.

    A response I may adopt in future whenever anyone asks why I use the accurate names for Londonderry, Derry City Council, City of Derry Airport.

  • HeadTheBall

    “one in the eye for the Ozzies”

    Pommie bastards.

    I console myself with Bill Bryson’s calculation (can’t recall which Games) that when you consider our Aussie medal total (all grades) in ratio to our population we Aussies come out top of the world, Germany a poor second, UK,USA, etc nowhere close.

    Regards to all.

  • WindsorRocker

    [i]”Eamonn mcCann makes some valid points. I agree with many of them but I doubt that either of us could go to Windsor and wear, say, a Celtic top. But many fans wear Rangers jerseys. I notice, too, that NI supporters clubs are all in loyalist areas. Again, I would feel unwelcome.

    It is telling that when someone wrote a play about Northern Ireland the result was A Night in November. When a play was written about the Republic it was I, Keano. Says a lot, really.

    Posted by billie-Joe Remarkable on Aug 22, 2008 @ 10:48 PM”[/i]

    billie,

    Nice one sided reference comparing Celtic tops and Rangers tops at Windsor…. the situation is exactly reversed at ROI internationals. As many supporters there wear Celtic shirts to their games….. At least try and be balanced.
    And just to let you know, the Rangers tops and the crazy scarves are 99% a thing of the past at Norn Iron games. You are right in one thing, some people who go to Norn Iron games have a very Orange and British definition of why they are there, but the vast majority have bought into the GAWA thing with the green tops….
    Just as in Dublin, many people go to ROI games with a vision of a Catholic, ultra Irish, Gaelic Ireland and feel that supporting the ROI is all about that….

    And if you are proud of Saipan and the farce of the 2002 WC then good luck to you….

  • HeadTheBall

    Oh and IIRC it’s twenty years since the Poms got ahead of us in the medal tally.

  • Reader

    Head the ball: I console myself with Bill Bryson’s calculation (can’t recall which Games) that when you consider our Aussie medal total (all grades) in ratio to our population we Aussies come out top of the world, Germany a poor second, UK,USA, etc nowhere close.
    You’re slipping a bit these days though:
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7576446.stm

  • billie-Joe Remarkable

    “And if you are proud of Saipan and the farce of the 2002 WC then good luck to you….” Eh? Proud? Saipan? Who mentioned….oh, it doesn’t matter.

    All national teams will have fans wearing the national colours – that’s the point. At windor it’s all of the other paraphernalia that goes with it that cannot be defended or ignored (though clearly many people try to, including on this blog.

    In Dublin they don’t have National Front banners, UVF or UFF banners and they don’t have the poisonous, sectarian racist atmosphere that is typical of Windsor.

    Shaftesbury Square is right next to Sandy Row and ‘the Rangers’ club as well you know. And the Rangers fans – and they were rangers fans, and one guy in an England top and lots of tattoos – I saw at it earlier in the year didn’t seem like they would want too many nationalists near them. I was near windsor the night they beat England. I personally saw the Rangers and Linfield tops and I certainly heard the chants. Sectarian chants.

    I’m sure there are plenty of “decent” (I think that’s how they like to describe themselves) NI fans. I’m positive there are many, many sectarian racists – I hear them singing during the games. And of course there’s God Save The Queen.

    I, Keano versus A Night in November – it really does say it all.

  • WindsorRocker

    Posted by billie-Joe Remarkable on Aug 23, 2008 @ 11:26 AM

    [i]”In Dublin they don’t have National Front banners, UVF or UFF banners and they don’t have the poisonous, sectarian racist atmosphere that is typical of Windsor.”[/i]

    They don’t have any of that stuff in Windsor either mate…. grow up

    [i]Shaftesbury Square is right next to Sandy Row and ‘the Rangers’ club as well you know.[/i]

    Hmmm, NO…. One is a main square in Belfast and the other is actually on Sandy Row a few hundred yards away…. Just for the record… places that are closer to the Ranger’s Supporters Club than the Shaftesbury Square NI club are
    Speranza’s,
    The M Club
    The Northern Bank
    The Kentucky Fried Chicken in Bradbury Place
    Lavery’s
    The Moravian Church at the beginning of the Lisburn Road….

    And Paul Rankin’s place is only feet away fromthe NI club….

    I’m sure that the owners of these places will be delighted to hear you write them off as UVF infested loyalist dens of bigotry….

    I was AT Windsor the night England were beat and I heard NO sectarian chants. Grow up.

    Your views shine through when you have to qualify a “decent” statement when referring to NI fans…

    Oh and by the way billy, I Keano is a play that centers on the farce that was Saipan when one of the worlds top footballers couldn’t be arsed hanging around an amateurish setup….. SO as I say, if you are proud of that then good luck.

    Got to say, I never come so close to playing the man not the ball when i read that utter tripe.

  • Doctor Who

    Windsor Rocker

    Billie Joe Unremarkable is a troll, don´t feed his sectarian fantasies, just ignore it.

    Onwards and Upwards.

  • eddie boots

    Yeah lads, the NI fans have really moved on. That being the case it wasn’t ‘themuns’ singing ‘there’s no black in the Union Jack’ in a Glasgow Bar the other night.
    Onwards and upwards indeed…

  • Doctor Who

    eddie boots

    An animal in a hooped top once called me an “orange bastard”, fortunately enough I have the mental capacity to recognise that not all Celtic fans are as dim witted as that individual is. Address your own demons eddie baby before wishing to exorcise the devils amongst themuns.

  • eddie boots

    keep on hand-wringing, Doctor.

    Customers in that bar were derided for the colour of their skin and were forced to leave in disgust. Hrdly the expected behaviour of ‘the best fans in Euripe?’ lol

  • Doctor Who

    eddie

    What bar? Did the proprietor have them removed? If I had´ve been there and the same thing happened I too would have left in disgust, as I did when I had to endure Nazi chants in a Dublin bar prior to ROI v Israel. Again these mindless Dublin idiots are not representive of the true ROI fans. Why do you want to stick the boot into ALL NI FANS? could you possibly have an ulterior motive? Is there any news reports (from reliable sources) concerning this disgusting episode?

    Onwards and Upwards eddie baby.

  • kensei

    He certainly did, Brian.

    No, he didn’t.

    Spare me the bollocks. Sport is inevitably caught up with Nationalism, identity and belonging. It’s why it tends to generate so much fervent support.

    You cannot expect people to on the one hand have as there political aspiration the ending of a jurisdiction, and on the other expect them to support that jurisdiction in its aspect as the face of a football team. All this talk of sharing and enmity and other bollocks is moot, else all the arguments are easily applied to an All Ireland team. You asking people to be two and not one. Yes, there is such a thing as multifaceted identity and if you do have it, fair enough. If you don’t you just don’t.

    I should add: I find very many English sports people immensely likable. I just can’t tolerate the jingoism that inevitably follows. Similarly, the outbreak of “Our wee country”itis that follows even minor local sporting success is what I can’t stand. Stormont banners waving, Jackie Fullerton talking, wheel out Eamonn Holmes, Jimmy Nesbit and that dude form Radio 1. I find it painfully embarrassing half the time.

    Well, how very dare she!!

    Clearly deserving of “a dirty look”.

    She should have said “the Six Counties”.. in a west Belfast accent.

    Oh, take the mock outrage and sarcasm and go away.

    This tendency to imagine that, if you wish hard enough, really really hard enough, Northern Ireland [i.e the border] doesn’t actually exist.. it’s a political psychosis that does nothing for anyone’s long-term mental health.

    No, it’s a political statement. An attack on a symbol is always an attack on the thing itself. And it is possible to ignore the border in lots of ways. The mere existence of the NI state doesn’t mean I need to carry a British passport, or support the football team or give any particular loyalty to it.

    You could argue “Well, if they signed up to Stormont…” but so what. You can “accept” something because you’ve been convinced of its merits. Or you can have no other option.

    A response I may adopt in future whenever anyone asks why I use the accurate names for Londonderry, Derry City Council, City of Derry Airport.

    I know a dude called Jeff. Absolutely everyone calls him it. Except his “real” name is Matthew. Didn’t find that out for 5 years. I just know you’d be the one prick that’d insist on using it.

    Naming is a function of convention. “Londonderry” persists because just over half the population insist on using it, not because of the name written on a piece of paper. Officialdom is more a matter of asserting authority, or making a political point. But you do know that.

  • catholic persuasion

    “It is telling that when someone wrote a play about Northern Ireland the result was A Night in November. When a play was written about the Republic it was I, Keano. Says a lot, really.”

    A Night in November is one of the most bigoted mainstream plays of the last 15 years. Its message that prods would be OK if only they were a bit more like catholics is risible. I’m from a catholic background and it made my skin crawl. Only sectarian idiots could take comfort from it. It was written by one of the nationalist tribe, for the nationalist tribe.

    McCann’s piece is superb. There will never be a ‘united’ Ireland while the sectarian ravings of Livingstone and some of the posters here hold sway. Grow up.

  • eddie boots

    Why don’t you try the ‘Are we a Country?’ site
    ,Doctor-you’ll find full details of the Nazi and National Front chants from NI supporters there.

    Onward and Upward -if your skin colour is white, eh?

  • Dave

    Kensei, you’re obfuscating the acceptance by the nationalist community within Northern Ireland of the constitutional legitimacy of the UK’s claim to ownership of the territory of Northern Ireland with the empirical observation that Northern Ireland is occupied by the UK.

    Nationalists didn’t need to accept that constitutional legitimacy of Northern Ireland in order to hold political office: they held political office while they opposed the Unionist Veto. They agreed to renounce their own claim to self-determination in favour of the British claim to self-determination within that formerly disputed territory because Sinn Fein endorsed that deal in the form of the GFA in return for reciprocal concessions for Sinn Fein (but not the nationalist community) such as release of members of their murder gang from prison and an advancement of Sinn Fein’s party political ambitions. To this end, that which was formerly dismissed as the Unionist Veto was rebranded as the grandiose-sounding Principle of Consent to hoodwink the unwary, and swallowed by a gullible nationalist community that misguidedly trusted the Shinners to advance the interests of that community rather than their own selfish ambitions.

    You did a lot more than just accept the veracity of an observation: you accepted the legitimacy of it as a principle, granting moral supremacy to the British and relegating your own right to self-determination to the status of a mere aspiration. That’s how the rest of the world sees it, and accepts as the morally legitimate position. Ulster is British, and so said the nationalists. The rest is just psychological denial compounded by the self-serving propaganda of the murder gang who sold you out. Still, trust psychopaths at your own peril. 😉

  • billie-Joe Remarkable

    I passed the Northern Ireland Supporters Club on Shaftesbury Square today. There are three flags above the door. An Ulster Flag and a Union jack among them. Their presence lets every one know who is welcome in and, just as importantly, who is not wanted on those premises.

    Dr Who: There’s a giant gulf between being sectarianism and difference. As a Northern Ireland fan, you are, quite possibly, very familiar with the former and intimidated by the latter.

    Again, I Keano or A Night in November: You decide.

  • billie-Joe Remarkable

    “And Paul Rankin’s place is only feet away fromthe NI club…”.

    And like all the places on your list Rankin’s doesn’t feel the need for sectarian flags to ‘welcome’ visitors.

    Do keep up.

  • kensei

    Kensei, you’re obfuscating the acceptance by the nationalist community within Northern Ireland of the constitutional legitimacy of the UK’s claim to ownership of the territory of Northern Ireland with the empirical observation that Northern Ireland is occupied by the UK.

    It is irrelevant: them’s the facts on the ground. The UK cannot be shifted from here any more than Russia can be from Georgia. Nothing is changing until we get 50%+. In which case, the best course fo action is to solidify that 50%+1 is the point of change and no threat by Unionism will change it, and to make this place 1. as livable as possible 2. move as close to the Republic as we can manage.

    Trade offs need made. I’d have prefered a stronger focus on moving some sovereignty to the Republic at the GFA, but that moment has passed, so we have to make the best of it.

    Nationalists didn’t need to accept that constitutional legitimacy of Northern Ireland in order to hold political office: they held political office while they opposed the Unionist Veto.

    They may have held office, Dave, but no power. What we have now is “nothing happens here without our say so”. It’s as good as we get atm.

  • Pete Baker

    “No, it’s a political statement.”

    Until somebody gets hurt..

    “them’s the facts on the ground.”

    Facts which you wish, really really hard, to ignore.

    “I’d have prefered a stronger focus on moving some sovereignty to the Republic at the GFA, but that moment has passed, so we have to make the best of it.”

    So sovereignty rests in Westminster.

    “In which case, the best course fo [sic] action is to solidify that 50%+1 is the point of change and no threat by Unionism will change it, and to make this place 1. as livable as possible 2. move as close to the Republic as we can manage.”

    That would be your imaginary movement.

    Hence the psychosis.

    Oh, and Russia and Georgia is such a bad analogy that I won’t even bother to address it.

    “Or you can have no other option.”

    Finally, the fatalism approach.

    If only that would be fully adopted.

    Rather than the psychotic thrashing around we’re currently witnessing.

    Where is the Northern Ireland deputy First Minister on this, btw?

  • Greagoir O’ Frainclin

    “Just as in Dublin, many people go to ROI games with a vision of a Catholic, ultra Irish, Gaelic Ireland and feel that supporting the ROI is all about that….

    And if you are proud of Saipan and the farce of the 2002 WC then good luck to you….”

    These are ridiculous statements!

    …”a Catholic, ultra Irish, Gaelic Ireland”
    FFS, what century are you living in Windsorocker?

    BTW, there are Irish Protestants in the south who support the ROI soccer team.

  • Greagoir O’ Frainclin

    “As a Northern ireland fan, I have to say that I normally wish BOTH England and the ROI ill will in any football tournament or match. It has nothing to do with their nationality but more to do with the fact that I hate the way Northern irish media go on about both teams as if they were ours when clearly they are not.”

    So the media can form your opinions! You are like a piece of plasticine then? I’d understand very well you wishing ill on the Republic of Ireland at soccer or indeed everything, but wishing ill of England the engine room of the UK, the seat of your queen and government is surely a gross contradiction regarding your whole sense of ‘Britishness’ and the family of ‘British’ nations.

  • sammaguire

    Why do you expect NI Catholics/Nationalists to support your concept of country (ie NI/UK) when you guys wouldn’t support a 32 county (ie the Nationalist concept of country)soccer team in a million years? Sauce for the goose, sauce for the gander as they say…

  • sammaguire

    Messed up there. Last comment was directed at comments made at end of first page.

  • Doctor Who

    kensei

    “Similarly, the outbreak of “Our wee country”itis that follows even minor local sporting success is what I can’t stand. Stormont banners waving, Jackie Fullerton talking, wheel out Eamonn Holmes, Jimmy Nesbit and that dude form Radio 1. I find it painfully embarrassing half the time.”

    I never realised just how narrow minded you where kensei until you came out with this tripe. It must really pain you to see local sports folks do well in their field.

    “Oh, take the mock outrage and sarcasm and go away.”

    So you agree with Robin Livingstone that even the mere mention of the words Northern Ireland is enough to warrant intimidation to people who dare utter those two dastardly words.

    Kensei I sincerely hope you get well soon because anyone who feels sick at the mere sight of Colin Murray and James Nesbitt simply because they are Northern Prods, needs help.

  • dactur hugh

    ‘Kensei I sincerely hope you get well soon because anyone who feels sick at the mere sight of Colin Murray and James Nesbitt simply because they are Northern Prods, needs help. ‘

    Am I allowed to detest them, Doctor, because they are 2 boring prats who would go to the opening of an envelope?

  • Doctor Who

    dactur hugh

    That is different, but Kensei detests them simply because they are Northern prods.

    BTW they are not on here to defend themselves so perhaps a bit more maturity on your part dactur.

    eddie baby

    I do not use the OWC site anymore, but can you confirm that posters there where disgusted that a handful of people in a bar came out with such trash. If so what is your problem. Northern Ireland have had black players in their team in the past and I never heard a single racist comment from fans directed towards them.

    Onwards and Upwards.

  • Harry Flashman

    Is it true that if ever there was a match between the Irish football team Linfield and the British team Glasgow Celtic that many Irish Republicans would support the British side?

    I’m sure that couldn’t be true.

  • dactur hugh

    Is it true that if Northern Ireland were playing Norway, many of the Northern Ireland players would boo and barrack their own player because of his religon and because he played for that same British club.

    I’m sure that couldn’t be true.

  • kensei

    Until somebody gets hurt.

    However, the mere existence of a political statement does not imply that somebody will get hurt

    Facts which you wish, really really hard, to ignore.

    I don’t “wish”. I simply do, in practical matter where I can. I have no need to carry a British passport, nor have I any need to cheer on the NI football team. Lots of ways it can’t be ignored, obviously, but get by as best I can.

    So sovereignty rests in Westminster.

    Sovereignty rests with the Irish people. However dejure authority rests witht he British Government. How can it be argued? Thems the facts on the ground. As is the fact that

    That would be your imaginary movement.

    Hence the psychosis.

    No Pete, it isn’t. If there are All Ireland bodies that are harmonising policy on some issues North and South of the border then that is actual movement. If Government on both sides of the border are working together and adopting the same policy or setting up shared institutions, then that is actual movement. If economies are harmonising that is actual movement. If the perception of the Unionist population becomes more favourable to the Republic, then that is actual movement. These are all actual and not imaginary things Nationalism can work towards that would be helpful in bringing about unification.

    None of them will mean a united Ireland in themselves. Only a 50%+1 referendum that transfers sovereignty can do that. The only psychosis the the one that says nothing can and should be done.

    Oh, and Russia and Georgia is such a bad analogy that I won’t even bother to address it.

    The analogy was simply to show that facts on the ground can differ from what international law says. It served.

    Finally, the fatalism approach.

    If only that would be fully adopted.

    It is fully adopted. But to quote Casement:

    Loyalty is a sentiment, not a law. It rests on love, not on restraint.

    Acceptance from “fatalism” will never result in love, and it’ll never result in loyalty.

    Rather than the psychotic thrashing around we’re currently witnessing.

    Where is the Northern Ireland deputy First Minister on this, btw?

    No idea. I am not a member of SF, much less do I have any access to the top brass. I am simply an independent Republicann. If SF declared we should all settle down and be good wee Unionists like you want, then they’d lose my vote very quickly.

    You’d like Nationalism to settle down and become good wee Unionists. Yes, sovereignty current rests with the British. Does mean I am British, or I have to accept every aspect of the state. To paraphrase Cameroon, you are confusing “State” with “Society”.

    You spend a lot of time pointing out apparent contradictions in a somewhat pick ‘n’ mix approach to these issues. Thing is though, we don’t actually care. We can get by perfectly with them, and if that leads to some contradictions then, really, so what? We know where we want to go. We are quite happy to play the system, and if it leads to some contradictions on the way, so be it. We can get by, even if you can’t.

    Hell if it winds you up it’d be worth inventing more.

    Dr Who.

    Eamonn Holmes went to my school, so running out accusations of sectarianism base don those comments are tiresome. If you can’t say anything useful, then just shut the fuck up.

    In fact, that is playing the man. Can someone stop him?

  • Greagoir O’ Frainclin

    Is it true that if ever there was a match between the Irish football team Linfield and the British team Glasgow Celtic that many Irish Republicans would support the British side?

    I’m sure that couldn’t be true.

    Harry, Linfield are a British team too!

  • Harry Flashman

    “Harry, Linfield are a British team too!”

    Not if you’re an Irish Republican they aren’t Greg.

  • billie-Joe Remarkable

    Billie Joe Unremarkable is a troll, don´t feed his sectarian fantasies

    There are three flags outside the Northern Ireland suporters club’s neutrally placed premises. Above the door there are three flags: Ulster Flag (it might be a flag of St George but of course that would be odd, wouldn’t it so let’s assume it’s an Ulster flag.

    There is a Union jack and finally there is – get this – a Scottish flag. Just what that is doing there is anyone’s guess. Maybe they want to make Celtic supporters feel welcome but I doubt it.

    There is a mural in nearby Sandy Row. It is a UFF mural featuring masked man with a gun. Above him proudly fly three flags: OK, after me the three flags are an Ulster Flag, a union Jack and (you’re way ahead of me here, aren’t you) a Scottish Flag.

    You couldn’t make it up – and I haven’t.

  • Doctor Who

    kensei

    “Eamonn Holmes went to my school, so running out accusations of sectarianism base don those comments are tiresome. If you can’t say anything useful, then just shut the fuck up.”

    Oh dear kensei, I did notice you included Eammon in there but I think everyone could see through it. Eammon only ever comments on his beloved Man United never on anything local. Kensei you are easily offended by anything not republican green. You never go to football matches but you feel qualified to lecture those of us who do. We tell you the vast majority of NI fans are not sectarian, you say they are. I´m still puzzelled at what you get embarassed about. Did the Ole culture of the ROI team in 90´s embarrass you also.

    Just what is it about the mere mention of Northern Ireland or those connected to it doing well do you object to?

    Finally you admit to playing the man, and not for the first time do you use foul and abusive language toward me. You then have the audacity to ask for me to be red carded. Your arrogance stinks worse than your foul mouth kensei.

    Get well soon.

  • Doctor Who

    billie – joe unremarkable

    Let me get this right, there are possibly three flags on the NISC building in Shaftesbury Square and possibly there are the same three flags on a Loyalist mural, so therefore Northern Ireland are sectarian.

    Do I really have to point out the likelihood of similar circumstances of flags and emblems being used both for legitimate and illegitimate purposes throughout the whole of Ireland and elsewhere.

    Really you couldn´t make it up. Could you?

  • Slartibuckfast

    As a republican I don’t cheer on any team which plays against NI because of some sectarian urge. I cheer them on because I loath that NI exists at all. I hate to see any sort of honour given to this ridiculous and cancerous state. Even if the whole team happened to be Catholic it wouldn’t change a thing for me. I also enjoy an NI defeat in any other sport or competition as well.

  • Christ, Robin: you’re drowning in your own hatred here. Try to let it go, God help you. McCann is a thousand times the man you’d like to be.

  • kensei

    What exactly happened my comment? Exactly why was it taken out, when Dr Who’s accusations of sectarianism remain? Fuck right off.

  • Doctor Who

    Kensei

    I too have had comments removed, comments devoid of any gutter language I hasten to add.

    Perhaps it´s time for telly bye bye´s, time for telly bye, bye´s.

  • kensei

    I too have had comments removed, comments devoid of any gutter language I hasten to add.

    Perhaps it´s time for telly bye bye´s, time for telly bye, bye´s.

    Swearing is fun and makes you happy. Try it. Unfortunately, you have used “gutter language” by twisting what I said and using it to make unfounded accusations of sectarianism. If I am going to get fucking censored, then that needs deleted sharpish.

  • Doctor Who

    slartibuckfast

    I admire your honesty if not your narrow-mind.