RPG attack in Lisnaskea

The latest unpleasant twist in terrorist activity has occurred in South Fermanagh. This time a Rocket Propelled Grenade was fired at a police foot patrol in Lisnaksea’s main street. I know it is a recurrent theme of mine, but I do suggest that violence restarting is inevitable. The hatreds in the likes of South Fermanagh have not gone away. I keep hoping to be proven wrong but dissident republicans seem to be slowly but incrementally increasing in their capability for murder and mayhem.

  • It was Sammy McNally what done it

    Turgon,

    we have (formerly) violent Republicanism wanting to lock the Nationalist community into support for law and order with the transfer of Police and Justice. In the wings, and hiding round the corner, in the darkness we have those who do not want to lock them in and who want the Peace Process to break down.

    The above attack should be a timely reminder ( a rocket up the arse ) to El Gordo to knock the DUP into line with the British and Irish Governements Peace Process policy.

  • Rory

    I should relax if I were you, Turgon. Expending scarce and precious ordnance such as an RPG on an attack on a foot patrol does not demonstrate that these stupid people are “incrementally increasing in [sic] their capability for murder and mayhem” but rather that they are desperate, ill disciplined and badly trained. Which is not to say that they are not dangerous and need to be stopped.

    But perhaps the best way of doing that is by isolating them by demonstrating that unionism is capable of change and willing to work together with republicanism in the spirit of agreements already entered into – something at which I note you and your fellow TUV members would be likely to balk. In fact we suspect that secretly you rather relish these little attacks as they provide about the only possible raison d’etre available to you.

  • It was Sammy McNally what done it

    Rory,

    “desperate, ill disciplined and badly trained”

    That sounds just like those involved in the Omagh bomb.

  • These dissident groups are tiny and heavily infiltrated by the security forces on both sides of the border.
    They are penetrated to such an extent that I am surprised that they are able to do anything.

    This is a puzzle from the the time of the Provos campaign-given the extent of informaers & agents inside the PRM why did their campaign go on for so long?

    Turgon I cannot agree with your gloomy analysis.
    These dissident groups will be wound up fairly easily if their is the poltical will on both sides of the Border to do that.
    I am sure that both jurisdictions will act firmly on them.

  • Turgon

    Rory and It was Sammy McNally what done it,

    I am not blaming you two personally in this but I worry about the line of reasoning which says unionists must give assent to what other republicans want. That seems to be a version of blackmail.

    Rory,
    I am, however, more concerned about you claiming I “relish” these events. My wife’s family have walked behind too many coffins for me or any of them to relish any such. I know you like to be witty but I assure that remark is merely an insulting slur. I might also add that it shows how little you understand of folk like me. I do not doubt for one moment your opposition to violence and would not accuse you of such. I would be grateful if you could take back that insult.

  • Rory

    Very well, Turgon, I take back any inference that you might “relish” attacks by republican dissident groups. No insult was intended merely the inference that anti-agreement republican dissidence and intransigent anti – agreement unionism are simply flip sides of the same coin of a debased reactionary currency.

  • Prionsa Eoghan

    Quite right pulling up on the unfair inference Turgs, but how about addressing Rory’s point?

  • Tir Eoghain Gael

    Rory,

    “desperate, ill disciplined and badly trained”

    That sounds just like those involved in the Omagh bomb.

    Posted by It was Sammy McNally what done it on Aug 17, 2008 @ 11:53 AM

    Whos that, the RUC?

  • billie-Joe Remarkable

    Turgon give your head a shake. We’ve all been there so your typical unionist refrain about walking behind coffins is itself patronising. I’ve done it too, we all have. You know full well the point he was making. I passed yer man Frazer from the victims group or as he and seemingly you might have it, the REAL victims. If you want to start threads on a political website in a divided country don’t be surprised when other people see the same situation from a different perspective. Not meaning to sound indifferent but since I don’t know you, wour wife, her dead relatives and all then I probably don’t sound too upset. GYAC I’m not. And you probably don’t lose a lot of sleep over the graves others on here might visit.

    Sorry, but you’re not special. You are sensitive though.

    Remember – IOAMB

  • billie-Joe Remarkable

    Oh, and anyone who fires an RPG at a foot patrol is an idiot. No other word for it. I know little about weapons but I’m pretty sure you don’t fire RPGs at a foot patrol.

  • Turgon

    Okay maybe I was too sharp: sorry Rory. I am aware of the general criticism and understand it but I really feel that there is a grave overwhelming danger that what we are all doing is indirectly saying that we must “move one” or whatever lest we slip back to violence. I know none of you are justifying the dissident attacks but to say that because of them we must change our position is inherently undemocratic.

    Whatever of the past everyone here gets an equal vote. As such political violence is anti democratic. To move in any given political direction because of political violence is foolish.

    I also do not think that those who perpetrate or for that matter support this sort of violence would be remotely affected by anything anyone could do for them politically. They are in my judgement simply violent people who would love to kill policemen, their Protestant neighbours and any Catholics or others who got in their way or whom they felt had wronged them in some manner no matter how trivial.

  • Rooster Cogburn

    Yeah, it’s Turgon’s fault that Republicans are trying to murder policemen. And because some Republicans are trying to murder policemen, other Republicans (who used to murder policemen, but now don’t), should be given whatever it is they happen to be whining for at the moment. Otherwise, those other Republicans (them wans *still* trying to murder policemen) will go on trying to murder policemen. Which obviously leaves the whining, currently non-police-murdering Republicans in a bit of a fix. Honestly Turgon, don’t you get it yet? You’re a sectarian hoor, and your sectarianism is forcing Republicans (I forget which sort) to try and kill people. So stop disagreeing with Republicans, you bigot, otherwise even more of them will start trying to kill people. Which they really, really don’t want to do, and have thought for simply years now is a deeply wrong thing to do.

  • Tir Eoghain Gael

    The PSNI special branch are working hand in hand with their agents in these groups. They are using the agents to plan attacks and are using them like puppets. There have been numerous attacks using agents in the past few years and they were all carried out with the full knowledge of the RUC/PSNI.

    Republicans have nothing to lose from an all Ireland enquiry into the Omagh attack. The people most resistant to such an enquiry are the british as usual. The RUC knew full well that an attack was planned for Omagh and let it go ahead for their own political purposes.

    More recently we had the case of Gareth O Connor who was a paid british agent and allowed to carry out an RPG attack in Coalisland before he was bumped off.
    More recent again we have had agent Paddy Murray who was given incendry devices to distribute among the CIRA in Ballymena.
    There was also the last attack in fermanagh where supposedly two officers were injured in a land mine attack near Roslea yet the PSNI never thought to look for the bomb it was only after a farmer found a wire running through his land and had to call the PSNI back to the area over 12 hours later to find it.

  • Ulsters my homeland

    Maybe they’ll stop these attacks if we give them money. It worked for the Shinners!

  • It was Sammy McNally what done it

    Turgon,

    I take it you understand that the Nationalist community had a problem with allegiance to the state in the past and that this was part of the reason the Provos were able to sustain their campaign of violence?

    The GFA/STA offered a way to gain that allegiance which involved reform of the security services, some constitutional change and allowing the insurgents into power etc. It also involved allowing the transfer of Police and Justice to Stormont – ( leaving aside the endless debate on the letter of STA) – and if this does not take place the allegiance to the state may well begin to weaken rather than strengthen.

    I am convinced the Englezes know this and will knock Robbo into line, not because it is giving in to terrorism or because it is a form of blackmail but simply because it is the best way to cement the Peace Process and marginalise people who would like to see that process unwind.

  • Ingram

    quote Republicans have nothing to lose from an all Ireland enquiry into the Omagh attack unquote

    Republicanism has nothing to fear from an inquiry,that said one or two so called Republicans do though and of course those in a position of influence within the security service (s) who directed this and other similar operations.

    Regards

    Ingram

    Ding Ding

  • ulsterfan

    Ingram

    Please tell us who and I might have a more benevolent opinion of them.

  • aquifer

    Sectarian death squad attacks irish policemen.

    Thats the headline but the Provos pretend they are not sectarian and the unionists pretend they are not irish, so we face armed blackmail in the name of what? Vows of poverty, the right to religious apartheid, bloodsports for the boys?

    Dissidents are people whose success at politics makes them enemies of a ruling class.

    These losers miss the English army.

  • Ingram

    Ulster Fan,

    Read the ombudsmans( ladies) report, Man A & Man B

    Man A – Patrick Joseph mooch Blair

    Man B – Gary Jones

    Regards

    Ingram

    Ding Ding

  • jomo

    Enough said Rooster

  • ulsterfan

    Ingram

    Thanks for replying by replacing one mystery with another.
    On second thought I do not want to know as I have lived with my own thoughts so long and may not wish to be proved wrong.
    Thanks.

  • billie-Joe Remarkable

    “Yeah, it’s Turgon’s fault that Republicans are trying to murder policemen.”

    Are you six years old?

  • Prionsa Eoghan

    >>Are you six years old?<

  • RepublicanStones

    ‘..but I do suggest that violence restarting is inevitable.’

    You could be right Turgon given the fact that the north is another colossal colonial blunder of the British, just like Palestine. The sooner some people realise is perhaps the best chance for a permanent settlement.

  • Turgon-I cannot agree with you that violence re-commencing is inevitable.

    I note that you do not give any reasons for your belief in the return of “war”

  • Turgon

    Phil Mac Giolla Bhain,

    In a number of blogs I have explained my belief that it is inevitable. In essence I believe that there are those who support murdering members of the other community (on both sides). They (on both sides) will never be satisfied whilst there are Prods/Taigs in Ulster/.6 counties etc.

    Ever since the plantation if not before this on going struggle has occurred sometimes more violent, sometimes less. To think those old hatreds will go away is naive in the extreme. Look at Yugoslavia, Rwanda etc. etc.: any place where there are such semi ethnic conflicts. The lack of ethnic difference here is irrelevant, the short hand still applies and there were no real ethnic differences in Bosnia: that did not help much there.

  • churchill gased the kurds

    “The hatreds in the likes of South Fermanagh”

    Oh take your tablets, have you ever BEEN to Fermanagh.

    I am FROM Lisnaskea a 76% Nationalist town and let me assure you I have NEVER heard anyone express support for the dissidents. It quite simply isnt there.

    And the reaction from locals is something along the lines of “f***king arseholes”

    If you want to learn about hatred in Fermanagh why dont you call some of your Orange pals down here and ask them why they cover a majority nationalist town in Loyalist flags ( and I mean cover).

    We arent going backwards, im sure you will be dissapointed about that.

  • churchill was naughty

    incrementally increasing their capability – come on, seriously!!!

  • It was Sammy McNally what done it

    Another crazy rocket attack

    From another “desperate, ill disciplined and badly trained” bunch

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/7567169.stm

  • Very depressing analysis Turgon.
    I hope you are wrong.

  • Turgon

    churchill gased the kurds,
    “have you ever BEEN to Fermanagh.”

    Yes actually. Wife brought up three miles from Lisnaskea. Rest of her family still there and around Rosslea. Now live in Fermanagh.

  • RepublicanStones

    ‘The hatreds in the likes of South Fermanagh’

    I must say Turgon, this statement has me bemused as well. I remember a Nolan BBC show a year or two ago were they interviewed 10yr olds and decided with audience participation which county was the most ‘bitter’. If i remember correctly (unfortunately) my own Red Hand county came out on top (of thread…c’mon the lads!!!!!)
    I must say, Fermanagh has always seemed rather benign to me, and i like the fishing there !

  • dub

    turgon,

    you really are a sickening little bigot. i’m personally so fed up with your nicey nicey guy image… if people would actually analyse what you are saying, it is so clear that you are just pining for the troubles to come back to confirm you in all your prejudices. you are too stupid to see that the foreign state that you slather all over is actually the puppeteer behind this theatre of violence. but of course your beloved british could never be terrorits. you talk about fermanagh and lisnaskea with the all the familiarity born of contempt and your settler mentality which cannot get itself around being irish. why don’t you sail off into the sunset with your tuv cheerleader, clifford peeples?

  • BTW I dont think that Churchill (or any other British functionary) did gas the Iraqi Kurds.

    Bombed from the air they certainly were-mustard gas bombs were asked for ,but there were none.

  • Turgon

    dub,
    I thought you might give me the courtesy of allowing me to choose my own identity.

    People have been trying to murder us into being Irish. I have to say it seems to have failed and fortunately most people in the RoI seem to have no desire to impose Irishness on us.

    In terms of being a sickening bigot: well I guess that little rant proves your reasonableness.

    “you talk about fermanagh and lisnaskea with the all the familiarity born of contempt and your settler mentality which cannot get itself around being irish.”

    Let us deconstruct that little statement: familiarity is not surprising in view of it being where my wife and in laws are from. Contempt: is it contemptuous to know the area? Settler mentality? Oh yes and I suppose since my family have not been here since the last ice age or whenever that disqualifies me from any opinions? What is your view of other “settlers” pray tell?

    As to sailing into the sunset: I am here and here to stay.

    Now do you have something constructive to add to the debate or would you rather just carry on ranting?

  • Turgon

    RS,

    I know in Fermanagh everyone is really friendly and non political. That is to your face: the bullets by tradition are for people’s backs. I will not trouble you with a list of those killed in Fermanagh.

  • RepublicanStones

    ‘People have been trying to murder us into being Irish.’

    Nonsense Turgon, and i think you will cringe if you read that again. Not to mention the murdering done to force Ireland into union with Britain.

    ‘I have to say it seems to have failed and fortunately most people in the RoI seem to have no desire to impose Irishness on us.’

    So your suggesting that being born and bred in the north of Ireland, your not Irish???? If that is the case for the majority of unionists then it really does call into question unionism’s right to dictate to other Irish people how a peice of Ireland is governed.

    ‘I will not trouble you with a list of those killed in Fermanagh.’

    Lets face it, the conflict is much older than the last 35/40yrs, so i doubt you’d want to compare lists.

  • Turgon

    Rs,

    Oh yes the conflict is much longer. I have done a number of blogs about the IRA border campaign. Do you maybe want to go back further? I agree this conflict has gone on for ages and I do not see it ending at this time. It has gone quiet for a time but I suspect it will be back. I hope to be wrong but we will wait and see.

    In terms of me not being Irish. Yet again we are back to this. I thought the Belfast Agreement which most of you seem so fond of allowed me to self define as I chose: I choose not to be Irish. Now your problem with that is exactly?

  • It was Sammy McNally what done it

    Turgon,

    as someone from the opposite side of the fence I dont consider your remarks bigoted but a touch pessimistic.

    I appreciate you consider the IRA campaign as simply a murder campaign and not one based on a political ideology ie the removal of the British. But lets assume for a moment that in fact it was largley based on a ‘liberation’ ideology and that the insurgents (the Provos) cut a deal with their enemies because both sides knew they were not going to win. The GFA/STA has enough for mainstream republicans for them to secure the peace and move towards a UI peacefully. In my opinion the transfer of police and justice will cement that. In that scenario the dissident republicans will be well and truly fecked – though I wouldnt rule outone or more Omaghs – but there will be no will for war in the Nationalist camp.

  • Turgon

    It was Sammy McNally what done it,

    I hope you are right and I am wrong: believe me.

    I think there were some people who were into a “liberation” ideology: I just do not think that the majority of terrorists were. I think they adopted some pseudo-ideology to cover their bigotry. Now without wishing to be condescending I just do not buy that many of the South Armagh or South Fermanagh IRA were into liberation/Marxist ideology. I think it was rare enough even in Belfast or Derry. I also am sure that any ideology was utterly absent on the loyalist side yet they are the ones who started the last round of murders.

    Sorry to be pessimistic and truly I hope to be wrong.

    Anyhow I am of to bed.

    Regards

  • churchill gased the kurds

    Turgon – wow you know Lisnaskea, and you talk of “The hatred in the likes of South Fermanagh”. I am shocked.

    Yeah lets talk about that hatred, how loyalists cover a 76% nationalist town in union jacks and banners to the UVF. I’d suggest to you that the very fact that your kin get away with that kind of behaviour should suggest to you that your nationalist neighbours, the majority, are very forgiving – id say TOO forgiving.

    And the fact that you believe there is any real steam in a dissident campaign suggests that you really are disconnected from whats around you. A less generous person would call it wishful thinking or worse “paranoid settler fantasy”.

    Let me assure you again the number of people supportive of such actions in this area is extremely small. That doesnt make those actions any the less dangerous.

  • RepublicanStones

    ‘I have done a number of blogs about the IRA border campaign. Do you maybe want to go back further?’

    Turgon i doubt you really want to go back any further for fear of peeling away the british ivory tower in ireland mentality the colonial class has.

    ‘I choose not to be Irish. Now your problem with that is exactly?’

    Well the little fact your ideology has partioned my country and seeks to keep the apron strings tied to an island who was no friend to this island. the fact that you claim your not irish, does drag into question your legitiamcy to in any way dictate the destiny of a part of IRELAND don’t you think? Never mind the fact the island you pledge allegiance to sees you as exactly that which you do not see yourself.

  • Garibaldy

    Settler mentality, sail off into the sunset. Is this the voice of people who claim to stand in the tradition of Tone or to chrish all the children of the nation equally with Pearse?

  • Turgon

    churchill gased the kurds,
    Most of this summer Lisnaskea has had green and white flags up: not red, white and blue. In terms of being too forgiving or my “kin get away with that kind of behaviour:” what does all that mean pray tell?

    Not really that friendly and reasonable are you? In light of that I treat your reassurances of limited support for terrorists with some caution. Tell me how is it that no one supports the current terrorists yet someone supported killing people enough to shoot Douglas Deering in Rosslea? Someone supported killing enough to blow up Enniskillen war memorial. Someone supported killing enough to mean that in the tiny church I attend there are two plaques up on the wall to people who were murdered?

    Now people supported those killings: more than an extremely small number. I somehow think the hatreds which led to support for those killings have “Not gone away you know.”

    Garibaldy,
    Remember they are going to unite Protestant Catholic and Dissenter. The IRA frequently achieved this goal: they seemed willing to kill such pretty indiscriminately uniting many “sons and daughters” of the nation in death and their relatives in grief.

  • It was Sammy McNally what done it

    Turgon

    “I just do not buy that many of the South Armagh or South Fermanagh IRA were into liberation/Marxist ideology”

    I meant “liberation” ideology in that they grew up despising the British for centuries of misdeeds and being committed to removing them from what they see as their country.

    Now that militant republicanism has agreed a deal which concedes to some Republican demands, including that the Irish people as a whole should agree to it – it is very difficult for dissidents to get the oxygen of justification which the Nationalist people supplied them the Provos with in the past. That is why, in my opinion, the last bit of this process is so important (Transfer of Police)because failure to do so will allow the dissidents to claim (with some justification ) that the British allowed the Unionist veto to prevail again.

  • RepublicanStones

    ‘Remember they are going to unite Protestant Catholic and Dissenter’

    A nobler aim as opposed to establishing a little sectarian Rhodesia.

  • Reader

    It was Sammy: I meant “liberation” ideology in that they grew up despising the British for centuries of misdeeds and being committed to removing them from what they see as their country.
    Yep – “Brits out” – hence Kingsmills, Darkley, Enniskillen, La Mon. The foot soldiers weren’t on board for the ideology, but they knew well enough how to “despise” and hate.

  • RepublicanStones

    ‘..Kingsmills, Darkley..’

    You might want to look closer to home or even across the water for these ones. Frank Kitson what a guy. I suggest you read about the fella with the english accent, just like the leader of the Miami Showband killings. It was a dirty little colonial war, make no mistake.

  • Damien Okado-Gough

    Turgon said:

    [i]The lack of ethnic difference here is irrelevant[/i]

    Turgon,

    I’m assuming that what you mean by that is that the two main communities share the same skin colour. I’m making the assumption based on my experience on the widespread mis-use of the term ethnic to mean non-whites.

    However, skin colour is only one of several possible determinants of ethnic identity or allegiance.

    For example, members of an ethnic group may share religion, language, and/or skin colour, but not one of these traits are necessary to an ethnic group.

    The more important determinants of ethnic allegiance are a shared sense of history, an affinity to a particular area of land and a perceived common blood-stock.

    Many ethnic determinants tend to give rise to common political goals.

    So, with this understanding of what constitutes ethnicity we can conclude that the conflict in Ireland is primarily an ethnic one and any attempt at its resolution must be based firmly on this understanding.

  • Garibaldy

    We can conclude its an ethnic one, but that’s bollocks, like the whole concept.

  • Turgon

    Damien Okado-Gough,

    I agree. The reason I say it is not purely ethnic is essentially because the likes of willowfield get cross when the conflict is called ethnic. I suppose also a number of genetic studies have shown that there are no real ethnic differences here and we all know of people who ended up being terrorists on “the other side” having had different lineage.

    Your point is, however, well made.

    RS,
    In terms of the noble aim of uniting Protestant, Catholic and Dissenter. I agree it is a noble aim. Sadly its out working as shown by the IRA ended up being essentially indistinguishable from “Yabba Dabba Do Any Taig will do.”

  • Damien Okado-Gough

    Garibaldy said:

    [i]We can conclude its an ethnic one, but that’s bollocks, like the whole concept.[/i]

    Garibaldy,
    Stating it and proving it are two diiferent things entirely. Simply stating it doesn’t change my opinion one iota. We are dealing with what is fundamentally an ethnic conflict in Ireland and your repost doesn’t convince me otherwise.

    Turgon,

    I’d be interested in reading those studies you reference in your post. Can you direct me to them? They seem to refer to the debate surrounding the relationship, (or lack of relationship), between the concepts of race and ethnicity. There tends to be an overlap in some undersandings of the terms.

    As I noted earlier, some argue that ‘common blood-stock’, or a shared ancestry, is an important determinant of ethnicity, wheras it is the central tenent of race, which I hold is a nonsense term with no scientific basis whatsoever.

  • Garibaldy

    You’re totally right Damien, entirely childish of me. But as you said yourself the way ethnic is used in these islands (outside of certain political science circles) is in racial terms, which is clearly not the case here. Moreover, in our situation, the problem I have with ethnic is that it suggests that people here are born inherently different, which is clearly nonsense. We need only look at the activities of people with Scottish names like Adams – Davy and Gerry clearly share some sort of “ethnicity” yet their politics are completely different, and they are perceived as being different through religion and political affiliation.

    I think the main problem I have with ethnic comes in your last sentence of your last post – where you (correctly in my view) say that race has no scientific basis whatsoever – there is an implication that ethnic does, which it doesn’t.

    We have perfectly serviceable explanations – sectarianism and politics. We don’t need ethnic as a category, which obfuscates our similarities.

  • Damien Okado-Gough

    Garibaldy,

    Thanks for your reply. We’re actually not as far from each other on this point as I thought we might be at the outset.

    It’s absolutely true that people from different ethnic backgrounds in Ireland have come to share political outlooks, with Tone being an apt example given that he has been quoted already in this thread in his belief that Catholic, Protestant and Dissenter could be united in common cause in building a new nation on the island of Ireland and the fact that he himself was a Protestant of British heritage.

    To claim that the two main ethnic groups are biologially distinct groups i.e, races, is a nonsense, which the studies you refer to seem to have concluded. This is why the concept of ethnicity is so important for our understanding of, and the resolution of, the conflict in Ireland.

    The term ethnicity allows us to understand how our society is structured and also how we can restructure it in order to resolve the conflict.

    Both the Irish/Catholic and British/Protestant ethnic groups can be distinguished from each other
    one the basis of differing senses of history and national allegiance. Religion plays a very important part for some, but not for others. That being said, it is convention that the religious terms be used to identify the two groups and I’m not going to break that convention.

    I contend that the most important factor in the ethnic conflict in Ireland is the political allegiance of the two communities, one to the established Irish political aspiration of unity and independence from Britain and the other being the British, Unionist viewpoint.

    Therefore, central to the long-term resolution of the ethnic conflict in Ireland is the necessity of the resolution of the national question to the broad satisfaction of both communities.

    So, to pull this post back onto the thread itself and to address the continuation of militant Irish Republicanism, I need to refer back to Tone’s quote about uniting Catholic, Protestant and Dissenter and the fact that Tone was also a militant Irish Republican.

    There has been a glaring dichotomy in militant Republicanism from its outset with Tone. On the one hand it sets out to unite Catholic, Protestant and Dissenter, but on the other hand, it does not give full weight to the fact that when they use political violence to achieve the national project people tend to line up on opposing sides according to their ethnic background, hardly the way to unite them.
    And this dichotomy is as prevalant and as glaring today as it ever was.

    I am an Irish Republican, but I do not believe that political violence can help to build a new nation on the island of Ireland, which holds the allegiance of the Protestant people. They will only ever give their consent if they believe that it is in their best interests in joining the rest of the people on the island in building that new nation. They are hardly going to feel that way whilst there are those who claim to want to unite Catholics and Protestants, but who are actively killing Protestants who choose to work in the police service or security sector. Saying that they Catholic policemen too, doesn’t wash stain of sectarianism from militant Republicans.

    Only through real and deep conciliation and by putting forward concrete and persuasive arguments can we ever hope to achieve a new nation on the island of Ireland, which holds the allegiance of all the people of the island.

    I have no doubt that it’s possible to realise the national project in this way.

  • Garibaldy

    Damien,

    I agree entirely that the nationalist paramilitary groups have been sectarian, especially in outcome, and very often in intention. I would contend that involvement in sectarian politics, never mind sectarian violence, deprives someone of the right to call themselves a republican. But to get back to the enthnicity question, the Tone quote proves the problem with it. He refers to three groups, and quite often in the C18th there would be references to the native Irish, the English and the Scottish. Over the course of that century, the overwhelming majority of the population adopted an Irish identity, the evidence for which can be seen throughout C19th Irish unionism, and even in the grounds of the City Hall.

    Rather than have different immutable ethnic or national groups, we have had people living here separated by religion and politics. So rather than two groups we used to have three, only becoming two really in the late C19th, and on the grounds of religion and politics, not the geography of family origin as it had been for several centuries before that.

    The fact that three “ethnic” groups have become two seems to me to demonstrate the problems with the concept in the first place. The dividing line has not been British v Irish – it has been sectarianism, but now that religion has fallen out of fashion with so many, we are finding people come up with a new language that has the potential to entrench division among our population by convincing them that they are all fundementally different from birth. I think we can see signs of it on Slugger, especially from some loyalists, but also from some of those who insist on referring to planters and settlers. It’s funny who they don’t apply that to the Bourkes, Fitzgeralds, Fitzpatricks, Butlers etc who were the original planters and settlers. But then again, they are Catholics, and so have magically become fíor Gael.

  • Dewi

    It’s the extent of endogamy which sort of destroys the whole ethnic reasoning. At about 5% since 1971 at least and probably at a similar level since partition (I’ll do some digging) statistically virtually everyone has relatives across the divide.

  • Prionsa Eoghan

    Apart from settlers from the east coast of England, virtually all of the people involved in the conflict would have close as dammit a majority native British and Irish DNA. Shoukri’s and the Italian connection apart(except if they are from the Florence region……….never mind)

    Anyhow Damien a pretty reasonable analysis if you remove the context that one community pretty much despised the other, and were content to live in the first tier of a two tier society. And the other community were to used to being on their knees and certainly would not have had the self confidence to challenge the status quo, not that they would have been allowed to do so given the experience of the civil rights marches.

    Considering this, just how was this;

    >>They will only ever give their consent if they believe that it is in their best interests in joining the rest of the people on the island in building that new nation.<

  • Damien Okado-Gough

    Again Garibaldy you have ascribed immutablility to the concept of ethnicity, when no-one I have ever read has claimed that ethnic groups are immutable.

    Indeed, in my previous post I argued that the resolution of the ethnic conflict in Ireland requires a resolution of the main determining factor of that conflict, the national question. Resolve that and the ethnic boundaries between the two main groups become evermore blurred. Chuck in a large dollop of increased secularisation and religion becomes less of a factor.

    Ultimately, Republicans should be looking for ways to remove the contentious political and cultural issues between the two groups in the hope that one day there will be so few that divisions all but disappear. The result? An end to ethnic division in Ireland, i.e. the realisation of the Republican objective of a united people in an independent nation.

    As something of an aside, my own family history is rooted both in Ireland and in Britain, but my family are Catholics and identify themselves, and are identified by others, as being ethnically Irish Catholics. If I was to describe myself ethnically, I would say that I’m Anglo-Irish.

  • Garibaldy

    Damien, again this immutability is present in the way it is used in “popular” discourse (and I use popular relatively). If we mean imagined communities, then again we have the terms for that without ethnic. It’s a buzzword, and a buzzword with all sorts of dangerous connotations, be they of racial divides like in the UK or inevitable difference like it was used to explain the dismemberment of Yugoslavia by elite groups appealing to nationalism.

  • Dewi

    Genetic mix of post famine Ards population – Disproves my point in that it refers to “differences in blood group frequency distributions in a referred previous study (Bittles and Smith 1991)” between the two communities there.

  • Damien Okado-Gough

    I don’t think it is valuable to dismiss the term as a buzzword. It’s been around for a fair amount of time, but only recently, say within the last 10-15 years, people have been applying it to Ireland and it has a valuable contribution to make to our understanding of human society.

    You said in your previous posts that there are another words to describe the differences in Irish society, i.e. sectarianism and politics. However, I contend that neither gives us sufficient understanding of the nature of social and political identity in Ireland.

    For a start, sectarianism has a wholly negative meaning in modern discourse. Considering yourself to be a member of one community or the other does not necessarily make you sectarian. It is merely an objective fact that you identify yourself in those terms. However, having irrational, negative views and/or feelings towards people from ‘the other side’ does make you sectarian.

    The term sectarian has a role to play in understanding human society, but it doesn’t do the job that the term ethnicity does. They have two different meanings.

    Nor can we explain the divisions in Irish society as being purely political. Is it not the case that a large amount of people in Ireland who claim to be Republican or Unionist would not be able to give you a cogent account of the actual political outworkings of their viewpoint on the national question, beyond some inherited quasi-wisdom, usually taking into account their group’s relationship with the other group?

    Political allegiance, as well as so many other things in Ireland, come, in the vast majority of cases, from the communities in which we are born into and brought up within. We tend not to reason our way to our political viewpoints, we inherit them. The same goes for so many things including which cultural activities we will particpate in. These things tend to be determined by our ethnic background.

    Ethnic groups and divisions exist. They are there to be seen, analysed and understood. Denying that they exist will not make them go away. The challenge for people the world over is find ways for ethnic groups to, either, peacefully coexist where they share the same territory, or to find such commonalities between them that the ethnic divisions diminish to the point of being utterly irrelvant to people’s daily lives. I argue that the latter is where future stablity in Ireland is to be found and that establishing a new nation on the island is the most important step in that journey.

  • Garibaldy

    You say ethnic divisions are not immutable, but then that a way must be found to diminish them to the point of being irrelevant. Is there a touch of seeing them as immutable there?

    Divisions certainly exist in our society. The question seems to be what causes them. I fear that the concept of ethnicity legitimises them as the product of something natural, something inherent, something into which we are born and are stuck with. A division on the grounds of religion or politics is something that can be negotiated, and reduced in the way you suggest. A division on ethnic grounds carries different connotations. As I understand it, there is an argument that says that in Ireland religion carries out the same functions as ethnicity does in other regions. I’m not sure we need the term.

    You mentioned the Anglo-Irish above. This seems to me to be a case in point. The southern state and community has broadened to a point where Irish protestants are exactly that – Irish protestants. Had however they continued to be seen as Anglo-Irish, then they remain different.

  • earnan

    Of the 1 mil plus people who died during the Famine and of the 1.5 million who left in that period, what percentage of those were Protestant?

    Folk memories live long in peoples minds, often subconsciously

  • Damien Okado-Gough

    Prionsa,

    Only through real and deep concilation with Protestant, Unionists and making convincing arguments in favour of building a new nation on the island of Ireland can we ever hope to build a strong, cohesive society and the most important step in conciling ourselves with Protestant, Unionists is to stop killing them.

    Thankfully the worst of the armed struggle is over for now, but the continued existence of militant Republican activity is a constant threat to the realisation of the Republic. It is incumbent on the Irish, Nationalist people of Ireland to bring about an end to militant Republicanism as a political force and as an ideology to futher demonstrate our credentials to Protestant, Unionists when we say that it is in their best interests to join the rest of the people on the island in building a new nation.

    However, people must also realise that there can only be a political solution to the problem of militant Republicanism, not a military, or security one. Traditional Republicans must be persuaded to end their armed struggles. Part of that persuasion must come about through political pressure, applied by the Irish people as a whole, using extra-parliamentary means which are exclusively non-violent.

    People need to understand that most traditional Republicans, tend to be good people, of honourable backgrounds, who certainly see themselves as such, and who will merely be further isolated by being demonised and attacked with vitriol. That said, the Irish people must assert their authority over them. How can we ever hope to gain the power of self determination over the British government if we can’t assert our will on how to achieve it over a very small minority of our own community?

    The traditional Republicans of the 32CSM and RSF must be persuaded that there is a non-violent way to achieve the Republic and that political leaders of the Irish people are determined to achieve it and are united in that cause.

    This, as well as demonstrating a determination to accomodate the Protestant, Unionist culture and heritage and by making sound arguments demonstrating the political, economic, social and cultural benefits of a new nation on the island would also be necessary.

    In such an environment, a real debate can begin, which I believe could result in all of the people in this island coming together to realise our full potential in a single, independent nation.

  • churchill again

    Turgon

    Some Green and white flags went up in Lisnaskea at the end of the period when union jacks were flying.Most went up AFTER the union jacks came down. ( Im not a GAA fan so I’d be quite happy with a completely flagless town)

    But lets see, you think its sensible to cover almost EVERY lamp post along the main street of a 76% nationalist town in Union flags, NI Government Flags, orange regalia and 1912 UVF gear for three or four weeks at the height of summer. Jesus man, and then you have the gall to say to me “Not really that friendly and reasonable are you”.

    Yeah I am friendly and reasonable, id happily support your right to fly flags on your own property, business or domestic, and march to your wee hearts content. What I do resent is my town being made look like a Loyalist loon-laager when it isnt.

    The attack was disgusting and I havnt heard one person say anything supportive of it.

    Can you take some tiny solace from that?

  • Damien Okado-Gough

    Gariblady

    [i]You say ethnic divisions are not immutable, but then that a way must be found to diminish them to the point of being irrelevant. Is there a touch of seeing them as immutable there? [/i]

    If you were to read my posts above you’ll see that central to them is my argument that the main ethnic division in Ireland is the national question and that I believe that it can be overcome, i.e. not immutable. Other things I think would be a little more difficult to uproot completely, like religious affliation. Such things would fall into the category dealt with in the quote made above.

  • Garibaldy

    Damien,

    I guess I see the national as a political and you see it as an ethnic question.

  • RepublicanStones

    Turgon your belief that you are not Irish is interesting.

    And if this is the majority view within unionism, it does question not only the legitimacy of unionism in Ireland, but also the northern statelet itself. Furthermore to call it a colonial mentality is therefore reasonable.

    Also you would do well to examine who is responsible for bringing the scourge of secatrianism to Ireland.

  • 6countyprod

    Rory: the best way of doing that (i.e. stopping republican violence) is by isolating them by demonstrating that unionism is capable of change

    Rory, it is up to the Nationalist community to isolate them, and expose them. Stop trying to pass the buck by saying that the Unionist community needs to do something to please them in order for them to stop their campaign of death and destruction.

    I was convinced by those who were supposed to be the experts that the IRA had indeed destroyed their weapons, and as a result I have supported the present agreement. If it turns out that we have been conned, as a growing number seem to think, and some of these arms and explosives have been set aside for future violence, I reckon there is going to be hell to pay!

  • As I have pointed out on too many occasions, the REAL terrorists in NI during the Troubles was not the republican paramilitaries — and, even less, the PIRA — but the unionist armed groups who killed 4 civilians for every 3 killed by all republican groupts combined, and more than 2 for every civilian killed by the PIRA.

    [b]So, Turgon and others who desire to remain in union with the rest of the UK, I suggest that you see to disarming unionist paramilitaries BEFORE you criticize Sinn Fein and the PIRA.[/b]

    The PIRA has disarmed. Time for you folk to direct your attention to disarming the unionist thugs.

    AND, to create a truly neutral police force that can win the respect of the nationalist community which has suffered at the hands of the RUC for about 3 generations.

    In short, let unionists clean up their own act before whining about republican violence.

  • Turgon

    Back again dishonest Bob?

    Yes your statistics work provided:
    All police officers killed (including retired ones) are not counted civilians
    All prison officers are not counted civilians
    All retired URD / RIR members are not counted civilians
    All off duty policemen / UDR/RIR personal etc. are not counted civilians

    All people except avowed terrorists admitted to by terrorist groups killed by the army and police were “murdered.”

    Even after all your perversions of the truth Bob we are left with the fact that the IRA murdered 2000 people: more than half the total if you wish to play perverse statistical games.

    The reality Bob is that the IRA was a terrorist organisation and the killing of anyone by them was murder.

    I have always wondered Bob seeing as you are from the USA how you regard the killing of people in the Pentagon attacks on 9/11. Was that murder? after all many people in the Pentagon were soldiers. In your world view I guess that would be okay. I guess the same would count for any policemen killed in 9/11.

    I of course regard all the deaths on 9/11 (except the terrorists themselves) as murders.

    I suspect you so as well. I suspect you are both a hypocrite as well as a liar.

  • 6countyprod

    Bob,

    Irish republicans are still trying to murder police officers. We are supposed to be past that.

    Stop trying to change the subject or make excuses for them. Have the courage to condemn their actions, man!

  • Turgon

    Bob,

    Forgot to add. You also have to regard the army and police as one and the same as loyalist terrorists.

    In addition when the army killed loyalists those loyalists have to be counted as “murdered” by “unionists” for your statistics to work.

  • Alas, here we go again!
    [i]All police officers killed (including retired ones) are not counted civilians
    All prison officers are not counted civilians
    All retired URD / RIR members are not counted civilians
    All off duty policemen / UDR/RIR personal etc. are not counted civilians[/i]

    Two points, first:

    First, the RUC were an active combatant group, making war on the rebels. If they limited their policing to normal criminal activity instead of participating with the Army in combat operations, I would agree with you. But, they did NOT do so and were rightfully attacked as combatants.

    Second, the UFR and RIR were also involved in combat operations. Sorry, Turgon, in for a penny means you’re in for the full pound, whether on active duty or not.

    What you are doing is taking combatants and, wrongfully, demanding that they be counted as civilians. And, demanding that off-duty combatants are “civilians”. Doesn’t work that way, Turgon.

    As far as the “retired” are concerned, depends on whether they were a “ready reserve” or not.

    [i]You also have to regard the army and police as one and the same as loyalist terrorists.[/i]

    Not quite true, but close enough since both were largely responsible for supplying loyalists with both arms and intelligence information.

    Do try to accept that the PIEA did commit terrorist attacks, but that the Army and RUC have a very bad, even worse, record than the PIRA. Worst of all, the loyalist groups who have not yet disarmed. If you are REALLY interested in an honest and a true peace in NI, I respectfully suggest that you demand the complete disarming of the loyalist gangs BEFORE asking anything more from nationalists.

  • Turgon

    Dishonest Bob,

    More lies. Most police officers were killed doing tedious things like driving around in cars or walking around on patrol.

    In terms of retired: when people retired out of the RUC they were not in a “ready reserve”, the RUC reserve was a different thing altogether. I can hardly expect someone who has never been to Northern Ireland to know that, however.

    The simple fact Bob is that most policemen and soldiers did not spend their on duty time running around killing anyone: most terrorists did that when they were “on duty.”

    In addition by your statistics “off duty” or “retired” terrorists were murdered when they were killed whereas you do not extend the same to policemen and soldiers.

    You also count soldiers killed in GB or Europe as not murdered. You even count members of the Garda killed by the IRA as not murdered. Politicians who were killed were not murdered by your statistics. I wonder if Marie Wilson was not murdered: after all she was a nurse and so wore a uniform.

    Again I challenge you: Do you regard the soldiers and policemen killed on 9/11 as having been murdered. I certainly do. I suspect you do too. I very much doubt that you are merely a liar: I am pretty sure you are also a hypocrite.

  • dub

    Garibaldy,

    I personally reagard everyone born in Ireland as Irish as indeed did Irish law until very recently.

    Turgon has a settler mentality because he SAYS that he does. He says he is here to stay (ie in Ireland) and that is right and well but he absolutely refuses to indentify with the island and instead WHOLLY identifies with another island, Britain, none of whose imhabitants regards themselves as primarily British. British is an umbrella nationality covering the core nationalities of English, Welsh and Scottish and also, for some Irish people, the Irish nationality. Turgon has no primary nationality according to him, merely the umbrella British one. If that is not a settler mentality, then i do not know what is. He is a bigot becuase he defines nationalist violence and those who sympathise with nationlist violence as terrorists but he does not regard much of the pro – Union violence as terroristic, and certainly does not regard those who symapthise with the latter violence as terrorists. Thus merely being a member of Sinn Fein makes you a terrorist in Turgon’s eyes, and, ipso facto, somebody who should not be allowed to be in government. But being a member of any of the unionist parties and the TUV in particular does not make you a terrorist, despite the numerous members of these parties who have actively supported and cavorted with unionist terrorists dowm the years. Thus any unionist for Turgon has a right to be in government. This arbitrary judegement on violence and terrorism is bigotry pure and simple. I am stating objective truth when i say that Turgon has a settler mentality and is a bigot. Very few other unionist contributors to this site deny all Irishness and very few are against power sharing with the nationalist community. Yet Turgon’s hateful views are given the benefit of the doubt due to his fake humble persona and educated sounding prose.

  • Turgon

    dub,
    Do I get to say what I believe and think or do I have to accept what you tell me I think?

    As a few little unfortunate issues:
    I do not feel that everyone who is in SF is a terrorist. I believe in personal responsibility. I do believe that there are a number of terrorists in SF.

    I regard the UDA/UVF/UFF etc. etc. as terrorists. Maybe you should look at the following blogs (1), (2), (3), (4).

    In terms of my identity: I thought the Belfast Agreement allowed me to self identify as I choose. I have to suggest that for you to deny me the right so to do seems a little shall we say bigoted. Incidentally I do not see myself as Irish. I see myself as Northern Irish and British. Just like many Canadians may see themselves as from their province and also Canadians but not as Americans in the sense of from the USA. I do not hate Irishness, I just do not feel Irish: what is your problem with that. Does it hurt you? Does my none Irishness offend you? If so why?

    As regards my apparently educated prose: I am frightfully sorry. I write words on the computer as all of us do. I do not try to sound educated. I guess by some standards I am: by my own I am unsure. After having done a science degree I have tried to educate myself in my real intellectual interests: History and English literature. Again my apologies if I offend you in that.

    Since dub you have presumed to pontificate about me: allow me to hypothesise about your motives in attacking me.

    The reality dub is that you have a problem with an educated unionist coming on here and demonstrating a reasonably coherent and politically consistent critique of nationalism and pro agreement unionism. You also resent that I can argue my point without recourse to insult, bigotry, bad language and invective. You also seem to resent the fact that I have read a good few books. Well unlucky dub: I am going to carry on doing what I do. I would say that your irritation spurs me on but that would imply that I am remotely interested in your opinions. I am afraid I count your view as of but little import.

    Finally I would suggest if I so annoy you why do you not ask Mick Fealty to remove me as a blogger and due to your charm and tact to replace me with you.

  • Garibaldy

    Dub,

    I’ve never seen Turgon say he has a settler mentality. What I have heard him say is that this is his home, and he has no intention of leaving it. If he regarded Britain as his real home, then I’m sure he’d say so. I assume by a settler mentality you mean he has contempt for the natives.

    Aside from the fact that I find the idea that 800 after the Normans, 400 years after the plantations and 300 years after the last major influx of people from Scotland to Ireland (during an economic crisis in the 1690s), there is such a thing as “settlers” and “natives” an utterly absurd concept, the fact that Turgon sees everyone in the six counties as British (while I presume respecting their right to define themselves as Irish) and as his co-citizens marks him off from the way settlers view native populations.

    I do not support his politics in the least, and think he and the TUV are profoundly mistaken, and agree with you that there are people in the TUV who are in no position to be casting stones, but I don’t regard him as a bigot at all. In fact, on several issues he has shown himself as more progressive than many on here who like to trumpet their radical credentials. Beyond that I think he has spoken for himself.

    As to the question of what approach people who want a united Ireland should take towards unionists, I think the first thing that should be done is that people should start to see them as their brother citizens, and act like it. Something which nationalism in the north has singularly failed to do, even if some of that is understandable.

  • Prionsa Eoghan

    Damien

    You have not answered my question in the context I asked, nor the time period pre-war. I agree 100% with where you are coming from though, but believe that the armed struggle was necessary at the time even if it had to be forced on a people who at the beginning were only looking for parity in rights.

    The time for armed struggle is well and truly gone, but at the time posed in my original question of you, only the latter group seem to have moved on from being on their knees. Striving to reach for the goals you have set out are bloody difficult enough just now, at the time of my original question pre-war it was nigh on impossible. Britain had allowed a two-tier society to exist on her doorstep and under her authority for near 50 years. Even when it was clear that those holding the whip hand were abusing their power, and the excesses were being shown on the 9 0’clock news she still chose to underpin that regime.

    It was a total mess.

  • Garibaldy

    “believe that the armed struggle was necessary at the time even if it had to be forced on a people who at the beginning were only looking for parity in rights.”

    PE,

    can you explain that a bit. It sounds like you are saying the Provos had to force it on the people until they gave them more support. Is that what you are saying? Or are you saying it was forced on them from elsewhere? If the first interpretation is right (and I think it is not) then wouldn’t that undercut your point about the time for armed struggle being gone, if small groups of armed people can decide when the time for violence is right?

  • Prionsa Eoghan

    The attempted pogroms, the people who were supposed to be upholding the law leading them. The defence of small enclaves like the short strand and others by ordinary people including ex-British soldiers. The writing on the wall I Ran Away etc. The response of the Stormont government to the civil rights marches and finally the response of the British government who after initially giving hope of salvation from the Orange mobs turned their force on nationalists. etc.

    I’m sure you know just as much if not more than me.

    Essentially what I’m saying is that the armed struggle came about partly by chance, partly because that was what the people were forced into. This is a limited(very) analysis.

  • Garibaldy

    Fair enough PE, I figured that’s what you meant, just wanted to check. Certainly Westminster bears a lot of responsibility for not enforcing reform sooner.

  • Prionsa Eoghan

    I suppose that is what I am getting at with Damien. All the fine and well constructed idea’s about how to implement a resolution to what was(probably still is) in essence a broken society, means naught when faced with an immovable object guaranteed by a then long faded super power.

  • Garibaldy

    Ah PE the tragedy in the situation is that the NICRA campaign did indeed get movement, and destroyed the old status quo, but the opportunity was stunted by the outbreak of violence.

  • dub

    Turgon,

    It is your right under GFA to identify as British, yes. I can criticise your position, though. To say you do not feel Irish after being born and reared in Ireland of Irish parents and grandparents and, i would suspect, many more generations, indicates to my simple mind a very profound disdain for the country that you live in and its culture and people. It is a settler mentality. You might notice that Scottish and Welsh unionists do not didain their nations. Ever wondered why some of you guys do?

    Garibaldy,

    I do not believe that Turgon is a settler, HE DOES. If you, Garibaldy, and your family had lived in France for several generations and you disdained any connection with the French nation but instead clung to that of your great great great great grandfathers, that would be pretty weird would it not? The fact that many unionists think like Turgon does not make this any less dysfucntional and weird. It is seen internationally as very very weird, particularly as this is a fairly recent phenomenon amonngst unionists. Throughout the 18th, 19th and early 20th centuries the vast bulk of unionists saw themselves as loyal irish people and members of the British Empire, not British subjects of the uk.

    Turgon,

    I do not find your education threatening in the least. What i find pathetic is that somebody of apparent intelligence who uses that intelligence to put across an apparently likeable and liberal character is actually somebody who harbours extreme racist and colonial views. Sorry if i find your views offensive, but i do.

    To clear up you nonsense about Sinn Fein. I am well aware that you have gone on record as condemning UDA/UVF etc. However you claim that Sinn Fein are not fit for government because some of their membere may have committed terrorist offences in the past and others symapthise with that and seek to justify that. What is clear is that no one in Sinn Fein is currently committing terrorist offences, yet you say “no terrorists in government”. Some members of the Unionist parties have committed terrorist offences in the past and others seek to sympathise or justify them. Yet all these parties fitness for government is never ever questioned by you. Double atandards based on unionist violence good, nationalist violence bad. Nationalists are therefore to you lesser people with lesser rights. Therefore you are a bigot and you are ashamed of and look down on the nation you were born in. These are facts in which you rejoice but you reject the logical inference of your positions. So you are dishonest as well.

  • RepublicanStones

    Turgon you like to present unionism has having a clean bill of health in regard of the conflict in Ireland. Afraid that it is not the case. Unionism, God bless it, may not be willing to admit its part in the advent and growth of loyalist terrorism, but you forget one thing, unionism had the british army to call on. The british army were part of unionisms terrorist arsenal just as much as the AK was part of the provos. You may try to deny this all you want and claim state violence has a higher moral standing than that of originating from ‘subjects’ of the state. The northern statelet was established through the illegal importation of arms and threats of violence. Don’t for one second think the colonial class would not have resorted to violence had the British Govt accepted the will of the vast MAJORITY of the people of Ireland and granted full home rule to begin with. Unionisms terrorism was carried out with the SLR’s SA80s, Para’s, SAS etc etc, as well as the colonial mitlita death squads, and this is only the recent conflict. Im sorry if the term colonial sits uneasy with you, but for a man born and bred in Ireland to deny he is Irish, there is no other word for it. Rememeber this Turgon, just because unionism’s cuffs have less cordite does not mean they have any less blood. Grow up.

  • Garibaldy

    Dub,

    Turgon is more than able to answer for himself. However he does say he is northern Irish as well as British, and I think you have ignored that. Again, I see no evidence he sees himself as a settler.

  • RepublicanStones

    ‘Turgon is more than able to answer for himself.’

    You do irony very well Gari.

  • Turgon

    dub,

    Ah dear there I was thinking I was likeable and liberal but you have seen through me. Yes I am an extreme racist: I guess that is why I have an interest in Kenya, Zimbabwe and the like.

    I do like this idea of “the nation you were born in.” I always though one was born in a country. Being born “in a nation” is an interesting turn of phrase. If for example a person of Irish parents was born in say France which “Nation would they be born in?”

    Also just suppose your “nation” did bad things of which you disapprove should you not be ashamed of it? I am not accusing Ireland of having done this but I am observing an interesting logical construct of yours. For example would it being wrong and worthy of criticism for an American to disapprove of the Iraq war? or (breaching Godwin’s law) for a German to be ashamed of their behaviour in 1933-45? I am concerned that support for “the nation” seems a bit immutable to you.

    Anyhow none of that really matters: it is my horrible, horrible bigotry that we are discussing. Indeed I disdain all Irish culture. I will be unable to answer for a while: I will be busy throwing out (or burning) my Mark Black collection, my Joyce books and somewhere I have some old Planxty LPs. It may take a time to purge these ghastly things that I so hate.

    Once again dub my thanks for helping me to see how I can more closely attain to the heights of bigotry which you set for me to aspire to.

  • dub

    Turgon,

    I do not wish you to aspire to any bigotry, simply to accept your irishness, which doee not mean casting away britishness or ulsterishness or anything else. it is just recognising reality. Also if you could stop privileging unionist violence over nationalist violence you might begin to see that Allister et al are just a bunch of throwbacks looking to stir up violence and hatred, just like republican sinn fein or 32 county sovereignty crowd. Basically climb down from your perch and get your hands dirty with the rest of us. Then your faux moralising and armchair general admiration of TUV boy soldiers would leave you and your might aspire to some balance and wisdom, things which you so parently believe that you have in spades but which you so evidently lack.

  • dub

    patently

  • Turgon

    No dub you have accused me of all manner of things. You have been vitriolic and insulting and have played the man repeatedly as regards me on this thread and others. You have ascribed positions to me which you cannot know whether or not I hold and indeed have ascribed other opinions to me which are the direct opposite of what I have repeatedly stated.

    To then say that somehow you want to be nice to me if only I would recognise my Irishness is simply pathetic. After insulting someone repeatedly it is a little rich to friendlily steer them in a given direction. You are the one who has described me as having a “planter” mentality and as having contempt for Irishness. The only thing I have contempt for here dub is you now faux friendliness.

    You regard me as a bigot with little useful to say. That is fine; your views count as naught to me. Now let me suggest you try debating what I say rather than what you think I am.

    Again I challenge you to email Mick Fealty and ask him to remove me from this site. You might copy me into the correspondence; I would find it most amusing.

  • dub

    Turgon,

    I have no desire to see you removed from this site.

    Your posts have rubbed me up the wrong way that is for sure and i have been somewhat personal in my repsonses to you, that is for sure also. Perhaps if you would answer my points about sinn fein participation in govt or other posters’ questions in the past about events in Stoneyford etc, I would not see red so much. You do evade questions.