Dame Nuala and Mistrust

Nuala O’Loan has sparked a row after telling Radio 4’s Women’s Hour that Protestants were taught as children not to trust Catholics.

She said: “One of the things that surprised me, because I grew up in England, was that people here (Northern Ireland), Protestants – and I only learned this fairly recently… Protestants would have been taught as children that they could not trust Catholics. I found that astonishing but when I explored it with Protestant friends, they all agreed that was the case.”
The Newsletter contacted Mrs. O’Loan who clarified her comments as follows:

“I could never understand why it mattered that I was a Catholic Police Ombudsman, it baffled me. But eventually I was told this was the teaching of some churches to their people and that meant I could understand a lot of what has been said about me.”

Unsurprisingly her remarks have been condemned by Jimmy Spratt and Ian Paisley Junior who both also pointed to Mary McAleese’s infamous Nazi remarks. Jim Allister has pointed out that Mrs. O’Loan’s son was spoken to about his conduct at a parade and has asked what she taught her own son.

Since Mrs. O’Loan, when she “discovered” this “teaching” which Protestants gave to their children, she “…checked it and checked it and checked it,” (presumably with her “Protestant friends”: I wonder how many of them (Protestant friends) she now has left.

Anyhow I am off to teach my two boys…..

  • Doctor Who

    Prionsa

    It´s hardly whataboutery to point out the mis trust one side of the community has of the other, but to say it´s all the fault of one side is wrong and down right bigoted.

    It would surprise me greatly if mainstream Protestant clerics taught their flock to mis trust themmuns, I can only assume O´Loan knows some strange people or more likely she´s talking out of her arse.

  • Prionsa Eoghan

    Doc

    No no no no!

    She was on about the home not clerics as far as I know. And the whataboutery only serves to stop us having a very real debate about this.

    >>but to say it´s all the fault of one side is wrong and down right bigoted.<

  • Doctor Who

    Prionsa

    Consider this, a Protestant boy from a loyalist area dates a Catholic girl from a republican area. Both set´s of parents are concerned about this arrangement.

    Does it make them bigots? Perhaps, but in many cases it makes them simply concerned parents, because they know how others unconnected will view that situation.

    For Nula O´Loan to imply that mis-trust of themmuns in the household is confined to Protestants is downright unreasonable. How can you have a debate about one side of the community while ignoring what the other side does.

    If that debate took place surely that would be for the Protestant community to solely examine themselves, likewise if it was reciprocated by the Catholic community. Simply sticking the boot into themmuns while ignoring the situation closer to (her own) home is unacceptable.

    To join in honestly as you put perhaps you should take a step back and ask yourself why on the one hand you say this happens on both sides and then in the next sentence state that it´s more prevalent among themmuns. For someone who complains about “whataboutery” on these threads, that really takes the garibaldy.

  • Driftwood

    What would be the reaction of a religious parent, of any denomination, if Cathy or Mike come home and says “I’m going out with an atheist”. Wonder if they would consider that even worse?
    I fervently hope in 50 years It’ll be the opposite, and parents will freak out if they think their child is going out with a person who believes in creation myths of any creed.
    Although I do think all girl Catholic 6th form colleges should be maintained for aesethic purposes.

  • RepublicanStones

    ‘For Nula O´Loan to imply that mis-trust of themmuns in the household is confined to Protestants is downright unreasonable’

    The basic thing the hysterical element on here fail to grasp about both this and McAleese’s comments, is that they were speaking from personal experience. Is one meant to empathize by speaking from the point of view of that which you have no experience? No, you share your own experiences !

  • Driftwood

    RS
    My own experience, in a ‘mixed’marriage was that neither family was bothered. That may be because of the area i grew up in. And we are becoming more secular, just like mainland UK. The Republic is probably following, grudgingly, in its big neighbours footsteps. Nuala O Loan was just surfacing her own parochial bigotry. If she was even halfway intelligent, she would realise that all religion is nonsense. But she spouts the guff she was spoonfed at birth. I recommend she (and you) read Sam Harris- Letter to a Christian nation- Time to grow up and ditch the sky pixies folks.

  • RepublicanStones

    ‘And we are becoming more secular, just like mainland UK. The Republic is probably following, grudgingly, in its big neighbours footsteps.’

    Well its big neighbour (what a euphemism) has a bit to go, particularly with the Act of Settlement.

    ‘If she was even halfway intelligent, she would realise that all religion is nonsense.’

    Never mind the fact her statement had nothing to do with wether or not she believed in the holy book mumbo jumbo, rather, she was just imparting her own EXPRIENCE. Also so your parents and your better halfs parents were full of nonsense?

    ‘Nuala O Loan was just surfacing her own parochial bigotry.’

    You could substitute a few words here and you could summarise the gestation of the northern statelet.

    ‘Time to grow up and ditch the sky pixies folks’

    time to grow up and cut the apron strings, welcome to Ireland folks !

  • Driftwood

    What about cutting the £7 Billion subvention RS?
    Yes my parents and wifes parents didn’t know any better,. Professor Dawkins et al was not in their mindset. We, however know better. And Sanm Harris and Daniel Dennett know a lot more than Nuala O Loan or Susan McKay or iris Robinson.
    Welcome to post nationalism, a false social construct anyway, my fellow ape.

  • RepublicanStones

    Are you suggesting Sam Harris or Daniel Dennett are better placed to speak about Nuala O’Loans or President McAleeses personal experiences than those two women are themselves? Wehter or not religion is valid is not the issue, its the experience of being designated as belonging to a particular denomination in the north of Ireland which is being discussed, not grand philosophical or theological ideas.

    ‘a false social construct anyway’

    Rather like the colonial sectarian northern statlet.

  • Driftwood

    No RS but if you’ve read Dennett or Harris, you’ll understand how religious constructs evolve. Ireland, Northern Ireland, otr even the ‘British isles’ are all social constructs. And the differences between them are minute. go on you tube and check out “Pale Blue Dot” by Carl Sagan. It’s all relative.
    Perspective RS, perspective.

  • Driftwood

    RepublicanStones
    You might want to think ‘outside the box’ of the “North of Ireland”. Learn and Live.

    http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=p86BPM1GV8M

  • RepublicanStones

    Your a laugh a minute, you begin by deriding O’Loan for imparting her personal experiences, then you go on to question the legitimacy of her statement by questioning the whole idea of religion itself !!!!!
    Once more for the back of the class, it matters not a jot about the validity of religion, O’Loan and McAleese STILL had those experiences, just as im sure some protestants had similar experiences. You seem to have drifted from a thread concerning a person of one religion and their experience of certain people of another religion to a Dawkinsian utopia, your seeking deabte down an avenue where there exists none, at least none on this thread anyway. Wether or not God, Allah, Yaweh or Ganesh exists has bugger all to do with it. As you said, perspective !

  • Driftwood

    I just liked that Carl Sagan commentary. It sums up what I believe.
    Yes, perspective. UK, Ireland, Britain, Europe -whatever,. The cosmic perspective kind of puts the whole parochial debate in a wee sweetie wrapper.
    A republican galaxy might be a bit beyond slugger.
    Even so, There might be a monarch (Lord) looking over the Universe.
    He’s not a Leeds utd fan for sure, if it’s a he.

  • Driftwood

    just to add…

    http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=fdVucvo-kDU

    good night, god bless

  • B Black

    Dame Nuala never learned her history at school in England. Unlike NI the middle Englanders who traditionally are very anti Catholic after all they have ‘Guy Fawkes Night’.

    ‘Guy Fawkes Night (more commonly known as Bonfire Night, Cracker Night and sometimes Fireworks Night) is an annual celebration on the evening of the 5th of November. It celebrates the foiling of the Gunpowder Plot of the 5 November 1605 in which a number of Catholic conspirators, including Guy Fawkes, attempted to blow up the Houses of Parliament in London, England.

    It is primarily marked in the United Kingdom where it was compulsory, by Royal Decree, to celebrate the deliverance of the King until 1859, but also in former British colonies including New Zealand, parts of Canada, and parts of the British Caribbean.[citation needed] Bonfire Night was also common in Australia until the 1980s[citation needed], but it was held on the Queen’s Birthday long weekend in June some states (eg New South Wales) and 5 November in others (eg Victoria). The event occurred in England some 102 years before the Act Of Union between England and Scotland. Festivities are centred on the use of fireworks and the lighting of bonfires.’

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_Fawkes_Night

  • RepublicanStones

    ‘A republican galaxy might be a bit beyond slugger.’

    No need for sarcasm dear boy

    ‘He’s not a Leeds utd fan for sure, if it’s a he.’

    Hopefully he’s a Tír Eoghain fan, if it’s a he.

    ‘good night, god bless’

    What did i tell you about that sarcasm?

    good luck.

  • The Curb

    Surely to God we can realise that it is not the guy who is being pointed out as somehow wrong or unpleasent, but those who do the pointing, that we must stand up to ? One would have thought people in a post-Facism world people would realise that. In Ireland, apparently not.

    I wonder also, do we feel our confidence in Mrs O’Loans past activities in the PO are dented by this apparent lack of cogency ? One would have thought someone smart enough to be trusted with such a sombre task would realise deriding Protestants as universally bigoted by making a universally bigoted statement against Protestants is revealing and laughably dull witted.

    A bit like talking up parental responsibility for secterianism when your own kids have very bad form. A twisted lady with a twisted agenda.

  • Reader

    Prionsa Eoghan: Clarity ma man, por favour. As I have no clue if I have even came close to answering your question.
    But you did, at last. It looks like our positions on trust are symmetrical – and multi-faceted, too. With a larger sample Nuala could base her claim on data instead of anecdote.

  • Essentialist

    Catholic spokespeople such as McAleese, Reid, O’Loan etc are part of a group with a clear agenda

    They seek to attack the Protestant world view.

    One need look no further than the changes to the education system and the revised curriculum of teaching for evidence of this.

    What is it about Catholic education in a Christian context that requires that it be taught only in a separate system?

    Ther fear of the Catholic hierarchy is that people will leave their church and schools and their vice-like grip will slip away.

    These statements attacking and demonising Protestantism are not accidental. To claim or imply thus is disingenuous.

    Notice the constant claims of ” I believe” when transgressions are challenged. This is an example of constructivism.

    For a primer on this see

    http://www.funderstanding.com/constructivism.cfm

    Now plug O’Loan’s statement into a constructivist classroom and what do you get?

  • Big Maggie

    Mon Dieu! A foreigner need only follow this thread to understand what went on in NI pre-, during, and post-Troubles. Talk about not being willing to confront one’s own demons. I reckon it’ll take another thousand years before the shite is gone and forgotten, or am I being optimistic?

  • Essentialist

    Big Maggie

    So what do you “believe” about “what went on in NI pre-, during, and post-Troubles”.

    Vygotsky and Social Cognition advocates claim culture makes two sorts of contributions to a child’s intellectual development. First, through culture children acquire much of the content of their thinking, that is, their knowledge. Second, the surrounding culture provides a child with the processes or means of their thinking, what Vygotskians call the tools of intellectual adaptation. In short, according to the social cognition learning model, culture teaches children both what to think and how to think.

    Isn’t constructivism great? What culture do you have Big Maggie?

  • Prionsa Eoghan

    Doc

    >>If that debate took place surely that would be for the Protestant community to solely examine themselves< >on the one hand you say this happens on both sides and then in the next sentence state that it´s more prevalent among themmuns. For someone who complains about “whataboutery” on these threads, that really takes the garibaldy.< >With a larger sample Nuala could base her claim on data instead of anecdote.<

  • Reader

    Prionsa Eoghan: Perhaps, though anecdotal was all she said it was, and don’t we all suss things out this way as we go through life? I do.
    Most of us aren’t given a salaried platform to allow us to present our opinions , and to give us an air of authority. For a start – both of *us* are anonymous, yet our opinions are worth as much as hers. More so, in my case, for though my household is a small sample, yet I know that in my parents’ family home, and my own, Nuala’s narrative is incorrect.

  • Dave

    “And I did say it happens on both sides although only one side seems to have a problem with discussing it, and it seems to manifest a hell of a lot more on your side, sorry if you are uncomfortable dealing with this.” – Prionsa Eoghan

    Classic projection: you are displacing your own repressed bigotry onto a group whose membership excludes you, thereby bringing your own flaws to consciousness without risk of recognising that you properly belong in bigoted group rather than the observing, non-bigoted group wherein your duplicitously position yourself (*strikes Sigmund Freud poses*).

    One side, of course, seems to have a major problem acknowledging that it launched a sectarian murder campaign against Protestants, murdering thousands and maiming tens of thousands, but why bring nationalist myopia into it?

    You are a bigot, Prionsa Eoghan, and the more you fling that word at others, the more your own bigotry becomes apparent. You deeply dislike a group of people based on their religion and national affiliation, seeing them as being an inferior group to the group that you identify with, tarring all with the same brush no matter how many times those you tar try to point out to you how unfair you are. Worse still, you’re a sanctimonious hypocrite.

  • WindsorRocker

    [i]”I could never understand why it mattered that I was a Catholic Police Ombudsman, it baffled me”[/i]

    I don’t think the religion was the problem. The main issue would have been that she was married to an SDLP councillor and then held a very sensitive policing post at a time when the SDLP and SF were jumping up and down screaming for as much as possible of the RUC to be totally obliterated off the face of the earth.

    Many English Catholics have had links to Northern Ireland even back to the Home Rule crisis of 1912….. but the SDLP link was always going to cause a problem and get in the way….. maybe the government planned it like that?

  • Mustapha Mond

    Turgon,
    Interesting, what do you think she means by ‘trust’? Trust with money? welfare of your children? Does the fruit of familiarity bring forth this ‘trust’?.
    It’s all a little vague to me, and fairly meaningless, but a spot of chimping always keeps the natives happy.

    I read something just recently that, in a way, is reasonably pertinent to what you have presented here, Can I email you about it? I promise it’s more sensible than my usual ‘owl guff’.
    MM

  • Turgon

    Mustapha Mond,

    Please do. Please note that the email address has changed.

    Regards

  • Prionsa Eoghan

    Reader @ 04:22 PM

    Fair play!

    Dave

    >>you’re a sanctimonious hypocrite.< >Classic projection: you are displacing your own repressed bigotry onto a group whose membership excludes you, thereby bringing your own flaws to consciousness without risk of recognising that you properly belong in bigoted group rather than the observing, non-bigoted group wherein your duplicitously position yourself< >One side, of course, seems to have a major problem acknowledging that it launched a sectarian murder campaign against Protestants, murdering thousands and maiming tens of thousands, but why bring nationalist myopia into it?< >You are a bigot, Prionsa Eoghan< >You deeply dislike a group of people based on their religion and national affiliation< >seeing them as being an inferior group to the group that you identify with<

  • Doctor Who

    Prionsa

    “First off this is not whataboutery, I don’t know how you are getting that. And I did say it happens on both sides although only one side seems to have a problem with discussing it, and it seems to manifest a hell of a lot more on your side, sorry if you are uncomfortable dealing with this. ”

    So in objecting to such a sweeping statement from O´Loan whose own parental responsibility has been brought to question, I am therefore uncomfortable in dealing with it.

    LOL, as other contributors on this site know I was born Jewish Prionsa: I can see the appaling generalisation O´Loan makes when some people generalise all Jews as Zionist´s, and yes it happens all the time. I can´t let anyone know about my origins without later being told that I must be ashamed of the Zionist occupation of Palestine. Incidentally I have never been to Israel.

    I wonder if you would be quite open to debate if a high ranking Protestant civil servant claimed that Catholics where brought up to mis trust Protestants. Something tells me you would add a soundbite to your list of republican cliches such as “hate fest” or your laughable “anti IRA propaganda”.

    If you want to start a debate fine, just don´t try to stick the boot in to themmuns and then claim innocence.

  • hobnob

    Are some Jews Zionists, Doctor?
    You see, many of the contributors to this “debate” would have you believe that no Protestants are (or, indeed, were) anti-Catholic.
    Figment of fevered Catholic imaginations, you see. Conflict based on imaginary wrongs.
    To accept otherwise may help us to move on, but it would undermine the righteousness of innocent unionism and we can’t have that.
    Perhaps it is a mistake to expect honesty on this topic.

  • Prionsa Eoghan

    Doc

    If you are going to get personal then I must point out your problems with comprehension. You were trying to play the auld wan side is as bad as the other routine, hence my subsequent explanations and apologies if you by some chance did not like my narrative. Now you are claiming that I responded to you objecting to O’loan’s sweeping statement. Well if you had checked you would have found that on more than one contribution I have agreed with Unionists on that. So I am hardly likely to be responding to that now am I.

    >>LOL, as other contributors on this site know I was born Jewish Prionsa:< >I wonder if you would be quite open to debate if a high ranking Protestant civil servant claimed that Catholics where brought up to mis trust Protestants.< >Something tells me you would add a soundbite to your list of republican cliches such as “hate fest” or your laughable “anti IRA propaganda”.< >If you want to start a debate fine, just don´t try to stick the boot in to themmuns and then claim innocence.<

  • Dave

    You know, Prionsa Eoghan, there is something quaint and a tad surreal about being vilified in Scottish idiom – sort of like watching an old Ealing comedy where the toothless poacher (a Scot, of course) is spitting invective at the gamekeeper who is manhandling the wooden-legged ruffian to his lordship’s study for the dispensable of justice. What gainful employment, I pondered, could one find for a vulgar amalgam of bigotry, bile, and malarkey that would prevent him from squandering his time taunting prods and insulting fine Dublin gentlemen on the Internet? Perhaps I should e-mail NASA and ask them if they need any more expendable lab monkeys to shoot into the atmosphere? Perhaps I could sell him to the Coney Island Circus as a shrunken-headed hunchback dwarf with a lisp, a limp, and a nervous twitch, bobbing for turds in a bath with its buckteeth? Perhaps a career as a suicide bomber might suit the grungy social outcast? Whatever. I don’t know what your problem is, but I’ll hazard a guess that it’s contagious and probably some form of infectious pox caused by deviant sexual practices with barnyard animals. It’s really quite simple: learn the difference between all and some, and once you have learned that difference, try to master the art of quantificaion. If you succeed inn master those skills, you’ll then have a better grasp that your bigotry is predicated on nothing more subtantial than demented extrapolations from fractions. Now, don’t you feel enlightened? 😉

  • hobnob

    “What gainful employment, I pondered, could one find for a vulgar amalgam of bigotry, bile, and malarkey that would prevent him from squandering his time taunting prods and insulting fine Dublin gentlemen on the Internet?”

    Perhaps there’s a vacancy in your office, Dub.

  • Dave

    We already have a hot air blower.

  • bona fide

    As difficult as it is for many to accept, I would suggest that everyone who grows up here is to some degree, sectarian. No one could have totally escaped this insidious indoctrination. As has been alluded to, sectarianism is deeply ingrained in our society and the sooner everyone acknowledges that and works through it then the sooner we can all move forward.

    What is so infuriating about the reaction of people who are apparently so insulted by Nuala relaying her experience (would you prefer she lied??) is that what she said keeps being taken out of context – she didn’t come out with this out of the blue – it was very relevant to the discussion that she was taking part in, for god’s sake. And, as she also said, it is important that there is honest discussion about this (and all the other behaviours that we’d prefer to ignore or pretend never or doesn’t happen) for progress to be made. Why do people find this so difficult to acknowledge and address?

    And please would people who keep inferring that she suggested that this was explicitly preached in church, STOP it – she said nothing of the sort. Just because she was talking about a particular religion hardly confines everything she mentioned to having happened within the four walls of a church. As everyone well knows, religion for many can be a very pervasive part of life.

    Turgon, you wondered how many Protestant friends Nuala has left – like, for feck sake, I’d confidently guess that not one of them has taken this sham offence that you and others have. And, in fact, what she said has been verified by many to have been their experience. So why the denial and outrage? Move on.

  • Essentialist

    Bona Fide

    “Verified”?

    “And, in fact, what she said has been verified by many to have been their experience.”

    Get a grip. O’Loan has joined a growing group of prominent Catholics who think it is o.k. to slander an entire group of Protestants.

    If O’Loan wishes to provide verification of her claims she should simply name her “friends”.(with their consent of course). Anecdote is not high quality evidence.

    The Women’s Hour appearance was not off the cuff. O’Loan had plenty of time to consider her remarks.
    Insulting – yes accidental – no

  • “I would suggest that everyone who grows up here is to some degree, sectarian”

    This isn’t a sentiment expressed by Nuala, Bona Fide. Perhaps I should point out that she was reacting to a little bit of selective ranting by Susan on the negative roles of the Churches in society here. If Susan had mentioned, for example, Ne Temere this thread might have followed a very different path.

  • Prionsa Eoghan

    Gee wiz the Dub

    The new bit of yir patter(about me and the Scots language) was the only part that didn’t force me to don an embarrassed smile over. You are beginning to remind me of the brother-in-law who always tries to capture me at family do’s because I am the only one polite enough to listen to his patter. Sure it was vaguely funny once and mair fool me for showing it. Sorry to confirm what you have always secretly feared, Aye you are a boring, and worse a repetitive boring excuse for a big girl’s blouse. And you have used the hunchback and sexual innuendo to good effect also, might just be good for wan last laugh though(nae promises)

    Anyhow anything to say on the actual topic? And shirking my challenge to show how much of a bigot I am, Dave the *interesting* Dub? Not good, no nae good at aw.

  • bona fide

    Essentialist, cool down. When I said her comments have been’verified’ by many – I wasn’t referring to the sources to which she referred – I was talking about people who’ve since shared their experiences here on slugger and on various radio programmes. Quite a number of (protestant) people have been very clear that what she said rang completely true to them. Or do you think they are all lying?..pesky taigs making masquerading as prods?

  • bona fide

    Nevin, I know that Nuala didn’t express the sentiment that everyone who grows up here is sectarian to some degree or other. I mentioned it as I think it’s relevant to this debate – it was in response to all those people who are apparently so outraged at the notion that some protestant children have been taught to be cautious of or ‘not to trust’ catholics (as she said). Why is it so hard to believe?

    Everyone who is so indignant about what she said must have been very bloody sheltered when they were growing up. I find it hard to believe that these people are so naïve that they have no knowledge of what she’s talking about (even if they didn’t experience it themselves) – it seems more likely to me that they just don’t care to admit it. However, can’t they at least be mature enough to recognise that as this behaviour (and much worse, much more explicit sectarianism) has been prevalent in our society for a long time and that it’s a worthwhile discussion to have publicly?

  • Doctor Who

    bona fide

    ” it was in response to all those people who are apparently so outraged at the notion that some protestant children have been taught to be cautious of or ‘not to trust’ catholics (as she said). Why is it so hard to believe? ”

    I think you miss the point. No one is denying that SOME Protestant children have been encouraged to mis trust Catholics for various reasons. For example in rural areas where PIRA practiced ethnic cleansing against a small vulnerable community, relatives of members of the security forces where probably told to be careful what they said to Catholics, as info could be passed on. Other Protestant parents simply may have taught their children to mis trust out of bigotry and ignorance.

    However Dame Nula did not use the word SOME, she then went on to justify her claims by saying her friends confirmed this. On the Nolan show she was clearly digging a bigger hole. When asked wether she thought that some catholic children where brought up to mis trust Protestants, she said “No” followed by “I don´t know”.

    How are we meant to conduct an open debate about sectarianism when high ranking officials like O´Loan come out with sweeping generalisations (unproven despite her “research”) which are themselves downright sectarian.

    It seems to me that nationalism/republicanism is only interested in having the demons of unionism/loyalism hung out in public. Their own demons can be kept locked away and confined to myth.

  • Big Maggie

    Essentialist

    “So what do you “believe” about “what went on in NI pre-, during, and post-Troubles”.

    Sectarianism in thought and deed just as Nuala O’Loan reported. And as bona fide correctly says above: “As difficult as it is for many to accept, I would suggest that everyone who grows up here is to some degree, sectarian.”

    “As difficult as it is for many to accept” indeed. Talk about burying the head in the sand.

    “What culture do you have Big Maggie?”

    Trance and hardcore. Thanks for your interest.

  • bona fide

    Doctor Who – although she didn’t use the word ‘some’ she didn’t use the word ‘all’. If she had used the word all I could understand the outrage – would have been a crazy assertion. However, neglecting to use the word ‘some’ isn’t a big deal – surely, that should be taken for granted?

    From my own experience I can say that I certainly wasn’t taught to mistrust protestants nor do I know of any catholic family of friends who were either (although obviously that’s not to say it hasn’t happened). I don’t deny I was exposed to a degree of secterianism like everyone else – I admit it. OK, let’s see, what secterian nonsense was I led to believe as a child? – here’s one – you can tell a protestant’s house from the state of their garden – nearly always super neat & well preened – was a running joke. I suppose I also had it in my head that most protestants didn’t particularly like catholics generally or at least that they felt superior….

    Now, your turn…go on, give it a go.

  • Prionsa Eoghan

    Doc

    >>It seems to me that nationalism/republicanism is only interested in having the demons of unionism/loyalism hung out in public. Their own demons can be kept locked away and confined to myth.<

  • bona fide

    Prionsa Eoghan / Big Maggie & many other like minded characters – good questions – but disappointingly, so few answers. Wonder why…..ummm?… yes, unfortunately, sometimes the truth hurts – too shameful to face up to, for most, shit, i better quickly qualify that with, ‘for some’. Oh well – at least some of us have taken part in trying to have an honest discussion. I still live in hope that even the most naive & blinkered will join us again soon….optimistic i know, but hey….

  • bona fide

    Reader

    @I was just asking – how much do *you* trust *us*? Will you answer?”

    I’ve just been reviewing the thread and what’s been said, and I already have answered your question (page 6). I’ll say it again, I (nor any catholic i know, but, to qualify, for the very sensitive among you, that’s not to say that some were) was never taught to distrust protestants. True bill.

    I don’t think this very hard to understand. Remember that this place was sold as ‘a protestant state for a protestant people’ and all that, let’s see….you can’t deny that there was a time when; it was very difficult for catholics to enter, never mind, do well in the civil service; that housing all over was mostly allocated to non-catholics; that infrastructure to the south & west of the Bann was non-existent. Or, do you think pesky taigs were / are being paranoid?

    Can you not admit or agree that with government policy & the (unfortunate) pervasive attitudes (& i haven’t even mentioned the influential anti-papal, anti-catholic, sectarian) shite that paisley was coming out with during all that time was very damaging – and may have in fact led to the stuff that Nuala alluded to?

    Surely, people with their sheepish nature believed that catholics shouldn’t be trusted when they were fed a diet of this institutionalised shit?

    I can only speak from my own experience – i was born in the 70’s – but i’ve no reason to not believe my da when he relays similar, appalling experiences of his time growing up, decades before (when for no good reason, other than the fact that he was from a catholic family) that they shouldn’t be trusted??).

    Get real.. Be honest. Admit it. It’s happened and no doubt, still does. In fact, i’ve recently experienced it in East Belfast when visting my brother. A beautiful 5 year old child was told she wasn’t allowed to play with my 2 year old – I’m convinced it’s because the parents know that i am catholic (same old, same old, they clearly know from our name that we must be catholic). Very sorry state of affairs. Shameful.

    You might not like Nuala’s assertions, but she’s right. Stop taking it out of context and so personally. Start admitting & addressing it instead. Head and sand definitely spring to mind for so many people here.

  • Big Maggie

    bona fide

    “You might not like Nuala’s assertions, but she’s right.”

    I listened to the podcast of the Nolan Show for 15 August and Nuala only asserted that she was told about mistrust by reliable sources. This despite the wanker of a reporter who stood in for Stephen (I believe his name is Kevin) trying to trick her into voicing her own beliefs on the above. I think he tried this seven times. But Nuala stood her ground and to her credit didn’t apologise for anything. Why would she anyhow. What she DID say was that it’s unacceptable that such things can’t even be discussed without the usual suspects getting their jockstraps in a twist.

  • Driftwood

    bona fide
    I was born in the 60’s, CoI parents, church to 11.
    Never taught anything bad about RC’s or anyone else living in what was then a mixed estate, meadowlands in Downpatrick.
    The only morons I have a problem with then and now are zombies who believe in god, allah, zeus, and the rest of the sky pixies.
    These ignorant deluded people should keep their voodoo beliefs to themselves. Including O’Loan and Iris Robinson

  • Doctor Who

    Prionsa

    “Oh and despite the silly madey up bit about “ethnic cleansing……………….welcome to the debate;¬)”

    Sorry but i´m not going to bite that one, sure you would only come back and say it was “anti IRA propaganda” like you have in the past.

    The thread incidentally is about what O´Loan said and not about exorcising Protestant demons, nor is it about putting the boot into themmuns which is the only thing that interests your good self.

  • Doctor Who

    Driftwood

    Couldn´t agree more, try Julian Cope´s new CD “Black Sheep”, full of great songs including digs at St. Paul, the Vatican and my personal favourite which is “All The Blowing-Themselves-Up Motherfuckers (Will Realise The Minute They Die They Were Suckers)” a dig at suicide bombers of course.

    Available through http://www.headheritage.com

  • Driftwood

    Will have a look Dr
    Still think SLF’s “Wasted Life” a great song.

    I can imagine O’Loans horror if she was to discover that atheists bring their children up to believe we are descended from trilobites. The very thought would have her spluttering her sherry over the axminster and telling Declan to call a cleaner right away. Whatever their religion as long as they are cheap. Polish maybe?

  • hobnob

    I wouldn’t consider myself a believer, but it isn’t necessary to be a religious nut to see the veracity in O’Loan’s comments.
    Atheism is about truth and evidence. It’s not about arrogant pomposity.
    Doctor Who ignored the question about Zionists, despite having used it in his initial comments.
    How about it Doctor, are some Jews Zionists?

  • Prionsa Eoghan

    Doc

    >>you would only come back and say it was “anti IRA propaganda” like you have in the past.< >

    You for one have shown yourself up for trying to stifle any kind of debate. Constantly accusing me of something(putting the boot in) that anyone reading this thread would know is utter shite(a trend going on here?) really isn’t constructive.

    Bona

    We can but try.

  • Doctor Who

    Hobnob

    Of course some Jews are zionists, my point was all Jews are expected to apologise for the sins of others, from mindless bigots. That´s my point, but what´s yours? A pint of Kronenberg perhaps. You really prove to yourself that O´Loan should have been a bit clearer in her sweeping statement. There are those who think all Jews are zionists in the same manner there are those who think all Prods are mindless kick the Pope fanantics.

    Atheism is indeed about truth and evidence and less about arrogant pomposity, which probably explains why O´Loan follows a superstitious, outdated, dis-credited and intolerant belief system which cannot provide any evidence for it´s far fetched beliefs.

    Prionsa

    Now be fair, now i´m not the only one to point out that you are an intransigent republican knuckle dragger. As for the Calton Radio comment, i´m still laughing.

  • Tony Blair Fan Club

    Northern Protestants – An Unsettled People by Susan McKay (Paperback – Jan 2005)

    is the correct name not the one that appears on slugger twice

  • Academic

    ‘Many in the audience employ Catholics, but I have not one about the place.’

    In July 1920 Sir Edward Carson addressed the Protestants in the Belfast shipyard and called for action. He was rewarded by a riot in which most of the Catholic workers were driven from the yard. Afterwards Sir James Craig, again addressing the shipyard men, said: “If you ask me my opinion of your action, I say, ‘well done’. ” On October 25th of that year Carson returned to this subject and declared that he was “prouder of my friends in the shipyards than of any other friends I have in the world”. Ah but, say the BICO and the WA, if only the minority had submitted plans….!