Irish exports to the far side of Switzerland from the 7th Century

I recall some years ago now working for a day in the Kantonsschule at Heerbrugg in St Gallen, and being bowled over by the demi hero status I rapidly acquired amongst the staff there when I inadvertently revealed I’d been brought up and had lived so close to Bangor. I admit to having been completely confused. As it turns out the whole Swiss Canton is named after Gall, an Irish monk who travelled with Columbanus from Bangor to the shores of Lake Constance where he became a Hermit. Later when a monastic community was set up there, they took the name of the old Irish saint whose relics had been taken inside the church. Mairtin has news on the cultural links between Bangor and St Gallen which adhere to this day:

The Irish manuscripts at St Gallen are the oldest in the world and among the most beautiful depicting in stylish script and with great ornamentation the story of the Gospels. The Irish monks, who worked under a vow of silence did write small poems and notes in the glosses. One, said Frau Hufenus, wrote “rough parchment, thin ink”, giving out about the quality of his tools while another, correcting a poorly finished page, wrote: “too much beer”.

Which may explain why the locals became so endeared to those few old Irish monks…

  • ggn

    Nice post Mick, varies from the norm and reminds of the cultural aim of slugger, normally lost in politics.

    Though if there are more than 6 posts it is a sure thing that even this will be polluted.

    BTW, what is the etymology of ‘Fealty’?

  • Mick Fealty

    In English it means ‘loyalty’ (no sniggering at the back!). Though my father told me the name as Gaeilge is rendered O’ Dícheallaigh, the common spelling in the part of Donegal where it originates is O’Ficheallaigh.

    It doesn’t have to be so. But people give up too early on the thoughtful consideration of views they disagree with. I’d like to think it was just an old habit borne out of the conflict. But it happens on the Brassneck blog, and in the British blogoshere more generally.

    Just have to savour the exceptional moments of engagement when they come along!

  • ggn

    hmmm.

    I was thinking of Ó Fichealtaigh, an Ulster form of Ó Ficheallaigh (originally Ó Fithcheallaigh), an epenthetic ‘t’ often inserting inself in the place of a double ‘ll’. [cf. dícheall > díchealt]

    Thats my theory anyway. Then I thought it might be an English name. Interesting.

    Now I must figure out who was Fithcheallach.

    Maybe its this fella http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dluthach_mac_Fithcheallach

    Of course Dineen defines Fithcheallach as a form of Fidhcheallach – ‘chess player’.

    Well, well. The game is afoot.

    I am not a stalker btw, just love names!!!

  • Mick Fealty

    You’re right about the ‘t’. I think that’s the way they spell it. There’s a small monument to a group of fishermen who lost their lives in the twenties out of Ballywhoriskey harbour, and I think that’s the way it is spelt there.

    Any light you can throw on it, would be gratefully received. The English version of the name is highly localised to that area. Usual stories about French shipwrecks, but none of us looks remotely French, or Spanish.

  • ggn

    Mick,

    If I come upon anything Ill let you know. Thanks for the info. The Fanad link is interesting.

    I think any English, Spanish or French origin can be discounted. Remarkably there seems to be nothing written on this name to date.

  • King Billy does a great Graham Norton impression

    He was an Ulster-Scots monk Goddammit!! He was from Bangor… why the attempt to distort Ulster’s history and identity into anything other than a British one?

  • It underlines the fact that contrary to what the English/British imperialists later said to justify their invasion and occupation, the Irish were in fact a well educated and civilised people, and in fact I would contend that we were literate before the English, and that during the Dark Ages the Irish monks played an important role in reviving literacy and learning through establishing centres of learning across Europe including in Britain.

  • Mick Fealty

    Health warning: don’t feed the trolls!

  • PaddyReilly

    Another amusing fact is that there was in ancient times a colony of Coptic monks at Crumlin, which probably explains the warm welcome extended to those latter day Coptic Saints, the Shoukri brothers.

  • Ulsters my homeland

    Irish exports, Irish monks, Irish language????….Can anyone say this with a straight face these days? It’s Gaelic, Irish is a Nationalism.

  • El Paso

    While travelling on the Vienna metro a few months ago I was intrigued to see posters of St Coloman around the carriage. The locals explained that he’s the patron saint of Vienna and apparently hailed from Sligo. So… in your face Bangor.
    Before any sycophants ask about the etymology of ‘El Paso’, it’s Spanish for The Pass. It doesn’t refer to the border though, rather a pass in the local mountains. Fancy that!

  • Ulsters my homeland

    “[i]It underlines the fact that contrary to what the English/British imperialists later said to justify their invasion and occupation, the Irish were in fact a well educated and civilised people, and in fact I would contend that we were literate before the English, and that during the Dark Ages the Irish monks played an important role in reviving literacy and learning through establishing centres of learning across Europe including in Britain.”[/i]

    FutureTaoiseach, what part of ‘Irish’ history did the people think of themselves as being Irish and Nationally united?

  • Ulsters my homeland

    [i]”Maria Frau Hufenus now speaking at Culturlann on links between Bangor and St Gallen via the monk t St Gall who left these shores in the 7th century (in 612 Gallen bulit a solitary monastic cell there).”[/i]

    This may well be significant in understanding the O’Neil dynasty. The modern day O’Neil’s take their surname from Niall Glundubh Mac Aedo, not from Niall of the Nine Hostages.

  • percy

    Great thread

    “too much beer”
    *sigh* way too many of my posts underscore that point.

    Mick maybe you were that monk in a previous incarnation.
    Studies show that people tend to be unconsciously drawn to places where they previously dwelt.

    George William Russell (April 10, 1867 – July 17, 1935) who wrote under the pseudonym Æ, was an Irish Nationalist, critic, poet, and painter. He was also a mystical writer, and centre of a group of followers of theosophy in Dublin, for many years.
    AE claimed to be a clairvoyant, able to view various kinds of spiritual beings, which he illustrated in paintings and drawings.

    In one of his books he claimed to be able to lie on a certain hillside and revisit the ancient battles:

    The akashic records (akasha is a Sanskrit word meaning “sky”, “space” or “aether”) is a term used in theosophy to describe a compendium of mystical knowledge encoded in a non-physical plane of existence.
    These records are described to contain all knowledge of human experience and the history of the cosmos.
    They are metaphorically described as a library and other analogues commonly found in discourse on the subject include a ‘universal computer’ and the ‘Mind of God’.

    Was this what AE was tapping into?

    Oh is that the time 😉

  • ggn

    “Was this what AE was tapping into?”

    The Tao of Slugger eh?

  • “FutureTaoiseach, what part of ‘Irish’ history did the people think of themselves as being Irish and Nationally united?”

    Well there was a common language, and furthermore the position of High King of Ireland has been around for thousands of years so I would contend that sense of a common Irish identity goes back centuries.

  • RepublicanStones

    Mick sure wasn’t it St Brendan himself who discovered the new World, he must ‘a had arms like Popeye to row that far though !

    FutureTaoiseach, UMH thinks because there was no central system of government in Ireland in the mideval times that any claims to irish sel-determination are thus null and void. No doubt his colonial empire mind thinks britain should still be ruling all those former colonies with a smiliar history. When we do finally get rid of the british presence in the north of Ireland (the govt, not those who claim to be british) he will probably expect us to dig up the roads and hand the tarmac back to Mother Britain.

  • Greenflag

    Bangor ? Cultural links ? Ye gods what next ?

    St Gallen was one of many Irish monks who traversed the Frankish Kingdoms is search of religious consultancy projects . Apparently the great Charlemagne insisted on having some of these learned Scotti (Irish in Latin ) resident at his various castles around the kingdom .

    IIRC it was these ‘monks ‘ who first invented the concept of the King being God’s anointed and thus anybody who usurped the King’s power or revolted or tried to stage a coup was disobeying God’s law and thus a sure cert for hellfire etc etc . Not surprising then that these upholders of emerging nation state stability were much esteemed by many of the Frankish Kings ( present day France /Germany /Lowlands /Italy and Switzerland .

    But like everything else they eventually outstayed their welcome and became a nuisance to the emerging powerful monarchs who did not take kindly to being told by these ‘peregrini’ that slaughtering their kinfolk or anybody who got in their way of accumulating more power , loot, territory was a ‘mortaler ‘

    Many of these ‘religious ‘ consultants were forced back to Ireland to the great annoyance of local emerging chieftains many of whom did not take kindly to their admonishions 🙂

    St Gallen was of course much luckier than St Kilian whose ‘head’ was served up on a large platter to a bunch of 6 th century Germans . Apparently St Kilian like St Kevin of Glendalough looked upon women with disparity and this was not appreciated by a German princess who apparently was attracted in a non saintly way to Kilian . His refusal to bed said Princess not only caused her to lose her head and go complain to Daddy German Chieftain but also reulted in Kilian losing his also .

    Kilian’s name lives on in Germany where it is extant mostly in the south west of that country IIRC .

  • Rory

    “…in fact I would contend that we were literate before the English,” says FutureTaoiseach

    and begobs, don’t you know, I think he might be right.

    I once found myself before some Englishmen in a pub in Fleet Street and when one of them asked me if I could read the logo on his T-shirt, I was honestly able to answer, “Yes!”. That sure showed ’em.

    “Blimey!” they said, “you must be bleedin’ Irish”.

  • ggn

    “…in fact I would contend that we were literate before the English,” says FutureTaoiseach

    Hmm. But does that make any sense?

    In simplistic terms, as a distinct language Irish as a thousand years or so on English so no real comparison can be made.

    In fact it is probable that the English learned how to read Latin before the Irish.

    It is quite true that the Ui Neill descend from Niall Glandubh but it should be pointed out that Niall Glandubh was himself a descendent of Niall Naoighiallach and that it may have just be coincidence that Niall Glandubh was of the period when the Gaels effectively invented surnames.

    I think UMH motivations could well be how discribed but let us not forget that until the famine most people in Ireland would not have understood the word ‘Irish’, describing themselves as Gael, as did the Gaelic Scots and Manx. Gael, I am informed on Slugger is interpreted as a racial form by some unionists.

    The term Eireannach does mean ‘Irish person’ in Gaelic but it is not traditonally the normal way that Gaels describe nor describe themselves, more ‘person of Ireland’ than Irish.

    Gaelic speech continues to distingush between the two.

    The relationship between the word Gael and Irish is a debate without any solution as many see them as meaning the same but many see them as radically different.

    Even Irish people opposed to Gaelic culture can be annoyed when it is put to them that they are therefore no longer a Gael – BTW it doesnt matter to me what people call themselves.

    In Scotland the term Gael and Highlander were one and the same but in recent times, say the last 50 years the term Gael in English has come to mean a gaelic speaker alone although in Gaelic speeck Gael (Gaidheal) may be taken to apply to any highlander.

    There is an interesting paralell between the views of harder Gaelic activists and the likes of UMH in that for some the term Irish is of little importance, prefering to remain, simply a Gael, or … Na Gaeil Abu as one might say.

  • Greenflag

    ggn,

    There was also the term Gael Gall for those people in Ireland who had been Gaelicised or Hibernicised e.g among others vikings , normans and old english etc .

    Did the Donegal/Tyrone Gaelic speakers have a word/words to describe the so called ‘planters’ ? Oraistighthe ( Orashtiheh )doesn’t cut it IMO – Gall ( Gowel ) ? Daoine Bearla ? Protastunaigh ? Any idea .

  • ggn

    Greenflag,

    “Did the Donegal/Tyrone Gaelic speakers have a word/words to describe the so called ‘planters’ ? Oraistighthe ( Orashtiheh )doesn’t cut it IMO – Gall ( Gowel ) ? Daoine Bearla ? Protastunaigh ? Any idea .”

    Yes. Until very recently Albannaigh ‘scotsmen’ was used in Ulster Irish. In fact Albannaigh can be taken to mean ‘protestant’ in Ulster Irish though this is no longer really acceptable.

    The term Gall was not used in recent times for this purpose though it may have been in previous times.

    In modern times people normally say Protastúnaigh, Gall being a bit strong, especially given the fact that many Protestant simply arent Gaill – respecting their wishes of course.

    For example Nelson McCausland is an ‘Ulster-Scot’, he has chosen to ignore the Gaelic part of his background, fair enough, but hardly a Gall.

    It must be stressed that Gall is in no way an offensive term, it is simply a term to decribe non-Gaels.

    Traditionally a protestant churchman was known as An Ministear Gallda, though again this is no longer acceptable.

    Orangemen are in Irish Na Fir Buí ‘literally the yellow>orange men’.

    Interesting discussion, but without solution.

    The only thing to be certain is that not all Irishmen are Gaels and not every Gael is Irish.

  • RepublicanStones

    Whilst not relevant there was an interesting article in todays Independent for those of you who might care !

    Picts

  • Dewi

    Republicanstones

    I never thought those Picts were politically correct….

  • Gareth

    El Paso

    Is Leopold not the patron saint of Vienna, on whose day there is a public holiday?

  • McKelvey

    FutureTaoiseach, what part of ‘Irish’ history did the people think of themselves as being Irish and Nationally united?
    Posted by Ulsters my homeland on Aug 06, 2008 @ 04:40 PM

    —-

    I,for one, don’t have an answer to that but I would guess around the same time as other European peoples did, from the 19th century onwards.

  • Him over there

    Interesting post and this may sour it a little and I can only apologise for it but word on the street has it Bangor town council or at least its heritage department has made a boo boo.

    They’ve published a Christian Heritage document and map (http://www.northdown.gov.uk/template1.asp?pid=780&area=1) and have completely forgotten to include the two catholic churches. Especially the one of the Brunswick road which goes back a good few years.

    No doubt some troll will read some hidden agenda into this other than an incompetance on the writers part.

  • Greenflag

    ggn,

    ‘The only thing to be certain is that not all Irishmen are Gaels and not every Gael is Irish.’

    True .

    ‘It must be stressed that Gall is in no way an offensive term, it is simply a term to decribe non-Gaels.’

    The Japanese use Gaijin in the same sense i.e non Japanese.

    IIRC the term for Wales was An Bhreatain Bheag ( UHN VRATAN VYUG )(Little Britain ) but I better refer to Dewi as Cymru and not as a VRATAN VYUGGER 🙂 or I’ll never hear the end of it 🙂
    Thanks for the info .

  • RepublicanStones

    ‘the term for Wales was An Bhreatain Bheag ( UHN VRATAN VYUG )(Little Britain’

    Don’t tell me….your the only one in the village greenflag?

  • Greenflag

    RS,

    I don’t assume that everybody visiting or on slugger understands Irish Gaelic or how to pronounce it:)

  • Ulsters my homeland

    [b]FutureTaoiseach[/b]

    “[i]Well there was a common language, and furthermore the position of High King of Ireland has been around for thousands of years so I would contend that sense of a common Irish identity goes back centuries.”[/i]

    A common language does not support the idea that there was a common idenity. The high King of Ireland?? LOL. What did he do? apart from try to claim he was grander than those in the other territories

    you have to do better than that, LOL

    [b]RepublicanStones[/b]

    [i]”UMH thinks because there was no central system of government in Ireland in the mideval times that any claims to irish sel-determination are thus null and void.”[/i]

    In medievil times there was no Irish identity, never mind an Irish Nationality. There was never any idea of unity through identity, never mind a government. The Gaelic Language was the only thing common to those on the island and that was solely due to the necessity to trade with other territories.

    Fry and Fry, in their book a history of Ireland, mentions “there was pratically no cooperation, no understanding of Alliance, between the four main kingdoms or between the many sub kingdoms nominally oweing alliegiance to one or other of the four. Indeed few Irishmen grasped the concept of national unity.”

  • RepublicanStones

    In summation then UMH you support the denial of self-determination to colonized peoples and would prefer it if Britain was still occupying all her former colonies?

  • Rory

    ‘The only thing to be certain is that not all Irishmen are Gaels and not every Gael is Irish.’

    Ah, but the important thing, ggn, is that all Gaels be true Gaels full of true Gaelic Gaeldom in the traditional true Gaelic way.

  • Seimi

    Fear Buí, meaning Orangeman. Also Fear Gorm (Blue Man) is actually Gaelic for Black Man. I always found this strange…

    Whatever, I have always found Gaelic to be such a colourful, descriptive language, much more so than English. This isn’t an attack on all things English or anything like that before anybody starts, it’s just my personal opinion. A few examples of why:-
    The Gaelic for a Jellyfish is Smugairle Róin, which translates as – Seal Snot! Which so perfectly describes its appearance.
    Also the Gaelic for a Kestrel is Pocaire Gaoithe, which translates beautifully as Wind Dancer/Frollicker.
    I know this has little, if anything, to do with the original post. Apologies.

  • Greenflag

    Fry and Fry, in their book a history of Ireland, mentions

    You omitted their full names – Plantagenet Somerset Fry 🙂 Now why would a history of Ireland by somebody with a ‘name ‘ like Plantagenet Somerset somehow not attract ‘instant ‘ credibility 🙂

    “there was pratically no cooperation, no understanding of Alliance, between the four main kingdoms or between the many sub kingdoms nominally oweing alliegiance to one or other of the four. ‘

    So it was no different from England or Scotland then. For most of early English history from the time the Romans left to the time that the Normans arrived England was a amalgam of smaller Kingdoms with the Danes controlling about half the country (The Danelaw ). Even Edward the Confessor had to kowtow to the Godwins . England eventually became a ‘united’ country only when 25,000 Normans conquered 2 million ‘indigenes’ and wiped out most of the Anglo/Saxon ‘thanes’ at Hastings . Norman French took over from Latin as the language of the ruling ‘elite’

    Without a ‘Norman ‘ invasion England might not have achieved ‘nationhood’ or a sense of national identity until much later . And without the Norman invasion and subsequent centralisation of political power there might not have been an English conquest of Ireland or Scotland or Wales until possibly much later if ever .

    ‘Indeed few Irishmen grasped the concept of national unity.”’

    Not quite true . Again there is a similarity between both England’s and Ireland’s historical experience in that an Irish ‘national ‘ identity as opposed to a long held cultural and linguistic identity began to emerge in the late 10th and early 11th century just as it did in England . In both cases it was largely a response to outside attempts to take control of both islands. The difference was that the English having just shook off the Danes was then defeated by the Normans .

    Brian Boru was crowned Imperator Scottorum (Emperor of the Scots i.e Irish ) at Armagh in 1010? . Had his dynasty survived Clontarf it is at least conceivable that a ‘united ‘ Kindom might have held off the subsequent Norman ‘invasion’ . After all King Harold was somewhat unlucky at Hastings.

    The Irish like the Germans or Italians came late to having a political identity . But just like the Scots , Germans or Italians or other europeans they have long held a cultural and linguistic identity .

    Just as an English ‘identity’ emerged after centuries of Norman rule so too did Irish ‘identity’ emerge after centuries of British ‘monarchic ‘ rule .

    It was not until a majority of Irish began to speak English that the ‘idea’ of a separate Irish ‘nationality ‘ began to impinge itself in political life . Apparently the English could understand (or at least try to understand the Irish ) when they spoke in English . As we have seen from the history of the past 400 years even that is no guarantee that both countries do not have ‘communications ‘ problems .

  • Greenflag

    Dave ,

    ‘Also Fear Gorm (Blue Man) is actually Gaelic for Black Man. I always found this strange’

    Why ? It’s perfectly understandable . Any black man who found himself in Ireland back in the little Ice Age (1600 through 1820 ) or so would have been ‘blue ‘ with the cold:) BTW I’ve come across African languages who don’t have a word for ‘blue’ . Perhaps ‘dubh’ had a pejoritive sense in old or late medieval Irish and thus it was not considered ‘polite’ to term people ‘dubh’ . Was’nt An Fear Dubh another term for An Diabhal ?

    ‘ The Gaelic for a Jellyfish is Smugairle Róin, which translates as – Seal Snot! Which so perfectly describes its appearance. ‘

    True . And the winter sea at Sandymount was perfectly described in Joyce’s ‘Bloom’ as the ‘snot green sea’ Wonder if he picked it up from the ‘Gaelic ‘ ?

    So if Fear Bui is Orangeman then the Gaelic for the Black Preceptory would be ? or would they most likely have tarred them all with the ‘yellow’ brush for simplicity’s sake ?

  • Greenflag

    Error

    Seimi .

    Apologies the above post was to you and not Dave

  • Seimi

    ‘Was’nt An Fear Dubh another term for An Diabhal ?’

    I think you are correct in this Greenflag.

    ‘So if Fear Bui is Orangeman then the Gaelic for the Black Preceptory would be ? or would they most likely have tarred them all with the ‘yellow’ brush for simplicity’s sake ?’

    I tried to find out about this and it’s a tough one. The word preceptory seems to mean an organisation or place of learning, though apparently not a school. The best I can come with at the minute is ‘an Foras Dubh’, while a member of the Preceptory, or a ‘Black Preceptor’ if you will, might be ‘Teagaiscí Dubh’. So you can put away that tar-brush for now if you like 🙂

    And no need for the apology 🙂

  • Ulsters my homeland

    [b]Greenflag[/b]

    [i]You omitted their full names – Plantagenet Somerset Fry 🙂 Now why would a history of Ireland by somebody with a ‘name ‘ like Plantagenet Somerset somehow not attract ‘instant ‘ credibility 🙂 [/i]

    You discriminate simply because you don’t like the name of the author?

    [i]So it was no different from England or Scotland then. For most of early English history from the time the Romans left to the time that the Normans arrived England was a amalgam of smaller Kingdoms[/i]

    but the modern English recognise this and don’t go around telling the world mainland UK was always English.

    [i] Not quite true . Again there is a similarity between both England’s and Ireland’s historical experience in that an Irish ‘national ‘ identity as opposed to a long held cultural and linguistic identity began to emerge in the late 10th and early 11th century just as it did in England .[/i]

    Prove that an Irish ‘national’ identity began to emerge in the late 10th and early 11th century?

    Prove that a long held cultural identity was present before the late 10th and early 11th century?

    [i]Brian Boru was crowned Imperator Scottorum (Emperor of the Scots i.e Irish ) at Armagh in 1010? .[/i]

    Prove Scots translates into Irish?

  • Greenflag

    UMH,

    ‘You discriminate simply because you don’t like the name of the author? ‘

    Not at all . I’ve read most books on Irish and English/British history just never came across the ‘Plantagenets’ except as the family name of the Yorkists who were defeated by the House of Lancaster. But I’ll track it down when I have time and give it a ‘proper ‘ review 🙂

    ‘but the modern English recognise this and don’t go around telling the world mainland UK was always English.’

    Oh I know -they’ve been downsizing since the beginning of the 20th century . The slide started when they stopped referring to the Scots as North Britons and speeded up when the Irish (or at least most of them ) became disanamoured of being referred to as West Britons . The term North East Britons is apparently also not one that has won many fans among the unionists of NI.

    ‘Prove that an Irish ‘national’ identity began to emerge in the late 10th and early 11th century?’

    There was no Brian Boru .It was just a fable eh ?

    ‘Prove that a long held cultural identity was present before the late 10th and early 11th century? ‘

    Go read a history of the Irish monasteries and schools of the period and you should cure yourself of this ‘gap’ in your knowledge of Ireland .

    Prove Scots translates into Irish?

    ???
    The Attecotti (latin term for these people ) were an ancient ‘tribe’ located in Ulster from whence the term Scotti came or so the ‘linguistic ‘ historians tell us . Ulster Irish , Irish Gaelic and Scots Gaelic are all the same language and have the same root . What is called Ulster Scots is a variant of Border (Scots English )English .

    The Attecotti we assume probably spoke some form of early Ulster Irish . Some of the tribe distinguished themselves in later history when some of them gapped it as far as modern day Turkey where one province Galatia is reputedly named after their ‘original homeland’ They were much feared by the locals as they were also reknowned for indulging in ritual ‘cannibalism ‘

  • Dewi

    “I’ve read most books on Irish and English/British history”

    Lol GF – Name them all !!!

  • Greenflag

    Dewi ,

    Ah not again Dewi -please it’s Friday . I’m off to indulge in an ancient ‘ritual ‘ and no it’s not cannibalism 🙂

  • Dewi

    Enjoy !

  • Ulsters my homeland

    ‘Prove that an Irish ‘national’ identity began to emerge in the late 10th and early 11th century?’

    “[i]There was no Brian Boru .It was just a fable eh ?”[/i]

    Can you prove that he introduced an Irish ‘national’ identity?

    ‘Prove that a long held cultural identity was present before the late 10th and early 11th century? ‘

    “[i]Go read a history of the Irish monasteries and schools of the period and you should cure yourself of this ‘gap’ in your knowledge of Ireland .”[/i]

    Quote them. Prove that there was a long held [u]Irish[/u] cultural identity present before the late 10th and early 11th century?

    ‘Prove Scots translates into Irish?’

    ???
    “[i]The Attecotti (latin term for these people ) were an ancient ‘tribe’ located in Ulster from whence the term Scotti came or so the ‘linguistic ‘ historians tell us .”[i/]

    You’re saying Scotti came from Attecotti, so how do you conclude that they were Irish?

    [i]”Ulster Irish , Irish Gaelic and Scots Gaelic are all the same language and have the same root”[/i]

    And what has that got to do with you stating that the Scots are the Irish? I ask you to prove that?

    “[i]The Attecotti we assume probably spoke some form of early Ulster Irish .”[/i]

    Prove that they spoke early Ulster Irish? presumably you are claiming they were originally a Gaelic speaking people?

  • RepublicanStones

    UMH, do you think Britain should still be occupying all her former colonies?

  • Ulsters my homeland

    “[i]UMH, do you think Britain should still be occupying all her former colonies? [/i]

    What’s that got to do with the Irish claiming Nationality over everyone and everything ancient to this island, especially Ulster? It’s about time they started to prove their chauvinistic assertions.

  • RepublicanStones

    ‘What’s that got to do with the Irish claiming Nationality over everyone and everything ancient to this island, especially Ulster?’

    Well many off Britains former colonies would have had even less a ‘sense of national identity’ prior to the invasion (which is your criticism of Ireland) and no system of central govt, so the question is perfectly valid, unless its too awkward for you to answer?

    ‘especially Ulster?’

    Ehhh, because Ulster is as irish as Munster.

  • runciter

    What’s that got to do with the Irish claiming Nationality over everyone and everything ancient to this island, especially Ulster?

    If your goal is to convince the world that Ulster is not Irish, you are bound to fail.

  • Ulsters my homeland

    “[i]Well many off Britains former colonies would have had even less a ‘sense of national identity’ prior to the invasion (which is your criticism of Ireland) and no system of central govt, so the question is perfectly valid, unless its too awkward for you to answer?”[/i]

    LOL, petty divert. Did you see me trying to blur Britian’s colonial past with ancient history?

    ‘especially Ulster?’

    “[i]Ehhh, because Ulster is as irish as Munster.”[/i]

    only after the English arrived, never before. Ironic isn’t it?

    “[i]If your goal is to convince the world that Ulster is not Irish, you are bound to fail.”[/i]

    In the 19th century perhaps!

  • Reader

    Him over there: They’ve published a Christian Heritage document and map (http://www.northdown.gov.uk/template1.asp?pid=780&area=1) and have completely forgotten to include the two catholic churches. Especially the one of the Brunswick road which goes back a good few years.
    The map shows four sites: two churches, a 6th Century ruin and a museum, out of the 30 or more Christian churches in Bangor. The guide adds a few extra pre-reformation ruins on page 7. The numbers are against including a token Catholic church. Unless it is important to you *as* a token?
    So I suggest you are a bit over-sensitive!

  • Mick Fealty

    GGN,

    Apropos that earlier conversation: http://tinyurl.com/62x7l2

  • RepublicanStones

    ‘LOL, petty divert. Did you see me trying to blur Britian’s colonial past with ancient history?’

    So you won’t answer the question….fine, its too awkward for your little colonial brain to compute !

    ‘only after the English arrived, never before. Ironic isn’t it?’

    So ulster is irish only after the English came? So your saying the English brought the irish language to Ulster? Wow, so a part of IRELAND was only IRISH after the ENGLISH came???? Is that correct? May i quote you on that UMH?
    Please keep going, your good value !

  • ggn

    Mick,

    Go raibh maith agaibh!

    If I ever get round to scanning the main academic article on Fanad Irish I will be sure to email it to you.

  • Greenflag

    GGN ,

    A propos your earlier post ,

    ‘Though if there are more than 6 posts it is a sure thing that even this will be polluted.’

    Sadly you got that right 🙁

    Re the etymology my Irish Dictionary has the old root fic /fioca for farm which presumably was extant in Ulster /Donegal /Fanad Irish long before ‘feirm ‘ or feirmeor (farmer) which looks and sounds like hibernicisations of the english ‘farm’ . Fidhceallacht means chess playing . That latter could indeed be descriptive of our esteemed Mick 🙂 And what else is blogging except a 21s century combination of farming , reaping and sowing allied to the skills of chess playing 🙂

    The other names on the memorial are anglicised as Sweeney , Harkin and I think Sheils although I could be wrong on the latter.

    Anyway that’s my tuppence .