2 out of 3 Northern Ireland MEPs say..

I’ll have a post in a short while about what happens next but, in the meantime, enjoy, if that’s the right word, the rare sight of TUV MEP Jim Allister and Sinn Féin MEP Bairbre de Brún in complete agreement, as did Conservative MP William Hague earlier in the same programme, that the sky is blue.. among other things.

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  • DC

    Bairbre de Brun, the cheek of her! I was personally at a Changing Ageism conference held in Belfast’s Radisson Hotel, where de Brun stood, opened her speech in Irish and told us about the wonders of the EU on anti-discrimination law.

    De Brun then proceeded to tell us, the audience, how we would need Europe to tackle ageism, that is increased prices to insurance for older people, beit health, car, travel insurance.

    You see age discrimination in goods facilities and services is still permissible but the EU is trying to combat that given people are living longer and there is still no legislation against that, unlike other laws on sexual orientation, etc. For example, a person attending a bar can be refused if they are too old. De Brun told us how a stronger Europe was needed to implement changes against the business sector, opposed to this! Nice one Bairbre, your stance today is contradictory and you have been found out for playing political games, on the same stage as Allister, who loves a bitter game to play.

    She has a fucking cheek, sorry for losing my temper, but this is serious and significant hypocrisy, from both her and Allister, there in Paris France. Hand back your monies or take a reduced pay cut and give it to charity to justify yourselves.

    What we have here are people moving past others who are entrusted to sell a position which is more complex and that allows the likes of Allister and de Brun to focus on shallower issues, overtaking those who have develop more deeper responses to provide the correct analysis.

  • Some people are on the PITCH!!, they think its all over. It is …….

  • fair_deal

    Surely all 3 of NI’s MEPs are opposed to lisbon?

  • obsrever

    At least Jim will be back after the 2009 election , Nicholson that is

  • DC, as a six county resident you have obviously been disengaged from the debate on the Lisbon Treaty but Sinn Fein in that campaign have been clear that they, or nobody else in Ireland is opposed to the EU as a positive however there were aspects of this treaty that were taking the Irish nation down a route that they did not want to go and the electorate supported that position. One of them was that in this treaty there was two lines on the social aspects of Europe that Bairbre was refering to and over 600 lines on the proposed militarisation of Europe.

  • DC

    At the end of the day, Medillen, you either hang separately or together. I’m rehashing this old saying to press a point. The Irish, when hanging separately didn’t drive to Armagh in their Mercs, neither was there such a thing as a North-South ministerial council and meaningful political co-operation.

    The only thing is, after hanging in together to drop out can only upset those who had relied on the Irish leaders and its people to realise the political mechanism, co-operation, that has helped in part to put a smile on your faces.

    What next, the re-creation of the Punt and linking it to Sterling and being as nationally neurotic as the southern English, who have longstanding complexion problems with Germany because the Saxons seem to be wealthier now than them, i.e. the newer ‘West/Anglo-Saxons’.

  • Ireland is and will remain at the heart of Europe but this treaty was taking on a road that is proving the disconnect between the political establishment/elite in Europe and its citizens. I personally am very pro Europe but not at the expense of my Irish citizenship with ability to decide whether my political leaders should take one direction or another. The Irish political establishment has also got a long overdue “boot in the b*******s”, sorry reality check and may temper some of their arrogance.

  • I love the way BBCNI think it’s ‘balance’ to have two hardcore Eurosceptics discuss the Lisbon Treaty as long as one is a Taig and one is a Prod.

    Pathetic excuse for journalism.

  • New Lodge ’69

    Sammy –

    I know they should really have some big lump of an alliance toff running around in a twead blazer, red waste-coat and top hat.

    Any recommendations? Gerry Lynch?

  • 0b101010

    If all politics was “accept everything or get nothing” then Northern Ireland wouldn’t be in the situation it is now. You can, of course, want a stronger EU but disagree with the Lisbon Treaty and its railroading.

    Crying “Eurosceptics!” is the grimy equivalent of the distasteful American practice of labeling political dissenters “un-American!”. It’s naively reductionist, inaccurate and unhelpful.

  • DC

    You can…you can of course, what’s your issue/s?

  • John Bangert

    A Toast to the EU Lisbon Treaty – Irish Style (vote of people)

    Thank You, my good Irish friends. I lift a whiskey to you for voting down the wicked Lisbon Treaty, that latest and greatest refinement to strip from you your sovereignty and national dignity. You make me proud.

    Yes, my dear redblueamerica friends, you see from this Irish referendum where putting the vote to the people rather than trusting blindly to parliamentary bodies can make such a big difference. (I am thinking momentarily of the recent shame of Michigan and Florida back here in the states.) And I know that only about 52% of the Irish came out to vote, 53% that did vote showed the power of citizen voting when the votes DO count. They have stopped the evil ratification in it’s tracks for now.

    There are currently 27 ‘states/countries’ in the EU now, up from 15 of several years ago … yet of these 27 states only one currently has the vote of the people really matter by constitutional necessity. You may remember when not so long ago France and Denmark made the mistake of putting ratification of a European Union Constitution to a vote of the people who reacted similarly to Ireland and said NO. The governments of those two states did not offer such a foolish democratic gesture this time around having learned the danger to Great Plans that citizenry opinions matter and can bite you in the ass, and BAD. Total 100% ratification seems to be critical (for the entire planet no doubt) before January 1, 2009. Does anyone else pick up on the insistences that simply everything is oh-so-ever crisis critical to hurry and happen before 2009 or else?

    I was looking through the ‘official’ Europa Q&A;regarding the Lisbon updates to EU previous versions. Naturally, this is a lot like going to Obama’s official site to learn about the fine and able senator, but, uh, there is some humor to be found there, if you have a sense for whitewash, generality, and sweet sales pitch. Personally, I found my funny bone tickled in each of the answers. My favorite was to the question “Will the Treaty of Lisbon create a European “Super-State”?” The answer is “NO … blah, blah … agree to share some of their sovereignty in supranational cooperation.”

    Anyway, see for yourself: My guess is that Europa will be the actual name of this new super state.

    Europa: Treaty of Lisbon (official Q&A;)

    http://europa.eu/lisbon_treaty/faq/index

    The greenblue (oops independent also) is interesting for further information. You will notice that Iceland, Norway, the Balkan entities, and of course, God’s chosen country, Switzerland are not members at all. Of the blue states the next scheduled to take action is Britain (this week) in the House of Lords. There is hope that they won’t rubber stamp in the aftermath of Ireland.

    Europa: The Current (Interactive) ratification map

    http://europa.eu/lisbon_treaty/countries

    Wikipedia: contains a lot of information regarding the treaty with many good links outside of the Europa treaty site.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_L

    Maybe your opinion on this matter differs from mine, but in either view, I think we can agree that it is an important set of events to observe and to understand as a tool for understanding the Great Plans for things going on here in the states.

    THE ABOVE BLOG IS FROM MY POSTING AT REDBLUEAMERICA LOCATION IMMEDIATELY AFTER BECOMING AWARE OF THE IRISH GREAT COMMON SENSE.

  • “I lift a whiskey to you”

    Will it be a Bushmills, John?

  • truth and justice

    Totally agree with artical double standards from the TUV, i also think that the MEPs should reveal all their perks and office cost allowances so the pupblic know what they are!

  • esmereldavillalobos

    Politics does indeed make for strange bedfellows.

  • interested

    Allister should be challenged on why he stated that his recent trip to Brussels was “paid for out of his own pocket” when in reality he paid for it out of his pocket but claimed back every penny from the Brussels gravy train.

  • interested

    Sorry, the above post should say “Brazil” not Brussels.

  • Different Drummer

    An Angry DC Writes:

    “You see age discrimination in goods facilities and services is still permissible but the EU is trying to combat that given people are living longer and there is still no legislation against that, unlike other laws on sexual orientation, etc. For example, a person attending a bar can be refused if they are too old.”

    You are not the only person who feels like that.

    You make an excellent point about B de B but it can and should be made about Sinn Fein. Those offically supported Gay activists you refer to here did indeed think that they had got it made and that Ulster was going to be a new Islingtion.

    That BS was BI – Before Iris

    Now AI – After Iris one part of the government SF wants to sue the other the DUP for…..wait for it….directing hate against minorities!!

    Yes that’s right – the same thing that IPsnr was jailed for all those years ago…

  • Disgruntled TUV Member

    Interested-

    Fair point. It would seem that even TUV sorts are now beginning to ask questions off Mr. Allister. (Lyle Cubitt’s letter to the NL being one example)

    Perhaps Mr. Allister’s obvious greed will soon come to haunt him.

    Some TUV members are beginning to doubt Jim’s integrity.

  • Greenflag

    The treaty of Lisbon will be implemented one way or the other, but only if the other 26 countries continue to ratify . And they will .

    The biggest losers from this fiasco will be the Irish . Just what a new Taoiseach needs when the economy is facing into a severe economic crisis . How will domestic investment react never mind foreign investment?

    As for Allister and De Brun? Neither’s comments made much sense . The former is living in cloud cuckoo land and the latter seems to believe that the Irish tail can alone wag the EU dog . SF’s political methods in dealing with successive British Government’s in Northern Ireland will not work for the Irish Republic in dealing with the EU. Under any other circumstances Allister and De Brun would not cross the road to spit at each other .

    It’s a bad day for Ireland when the only support they get for their NO vote is from the ultra right nut jobs cranks and wackos from the USA and the British National front and associated ‘nazi’ affiliates throughout the EU . The vast majority of European voters those who vote for the mainstream left,right, and centre parties throughout the EU are disappointed by the Irish vote . Those in Ireland who believe that these people will cancel their plans for further european integration because of the Irish vote are in for a major lesson in realpolitik.

  • Any recommendations? Gerry Lynch?

    Well, you could do worse.

    Ohmigod, I’ve just realised that you’ve outed me – and there’s no sports massage defence available! Oh, Christ, I’m in real trouble now. Obviously, before you did that nobody on Slugger knew who I was, and nor did my employers, and nor did anyone from any other parties. So now I’ll just have to never post on Slugger ever again even if I manage not to commit hari kiri from the shame.

    Tit. You didn’t even manage to deal with the point I was making. Or know how to spell most of the things you were saying.

  • Disgruntled TUV Member,

    You give your e-mail address as Karenboal44@msn.com !

    Either you’re really a bit dim, and are the actual KB who was recently (s)elected as Secretary of the TUV;

    http://sluggerotoole.com/index.php/weblog/comments/tuv-announces-party-officers/

    … or you’re an imposter pretending to be her, and the Slugger moderators should remove the post immediately.

    Which is it?

  • Gach Anam

    Greenflag:

    The vast majority of European voters those who vote for the mainstream left,right, and centre parties throughout the EU are disappointed by the Irish vote

    As an occassional reader of this site I can respect your opinion having seen several of your previous posts but would you like to qualify this statement with a source? I have been looking at responses in the Spanish and (especially) German online media for the last few days and there seems to be quite a lot of support for the outcome amoung the public commentators. If anything it has opened up a debate on this issue. However the Tricolour (Green/White/Orange) was flying over Le Pen’s party headquarters at the weekend…not good.

  • Greenflag

    Gach Anam,

    I listened to ZDF (Zweites Deutches Fernsehen ) news reports and what I’m hearing is not good . There is frankly ‘amazement’ that the Irish voted NO to a Treay they (their Government ) was instrumental in drawing up.

    We all know what’s wrong with EU bureaucracy and with the need for reform and making the institutions more accountable to the european public . Passing the Lisbon Treaty would have been a step in the right direction . With the emergence of China , India , Russia , Brazil as world trading powers to compete with the USA and Japan /East Asia- Europe will be left behind if it cannot present a unified face to the world both politically and economically.

    ‘However the Tricolour (Green/White/Orange) was flying over Le Pen’s party headquarters at the weekend…not good.’

    And you can be sure that the ‘tricolour ‘ will now find itself flying alongside the flags of other far right and left ‘nutters’ as time passes .

    David Dukes the KKK Louisiana ranter made use of a Celtic Cross to symbolise his ‘white rights ‘ movement so it should be no surprise that like minded French ‘racists’ should find the ‘tricolour ‘ a handy little ‘diversion’ to advertise their ‘internationalist’ concerns .

    As somebody else is want to say ‘pass the vomit bag’ 🙁

  • Gach Anam

    Thanks for the reply Greenflag. I have been looking at the debates that are starting to take place (by readers) in the online press myself (google translated bien sûr). I completely agree the decision making needs to be cleaned up – “Streamlining the system” being the buzz phrase of the some of my colleagues in places like Hyderabad. And while presenting a unified face may be positive for dealings with the rest of the world it doesn’t hide the underlying discontent that seems to be felt amoung some, if not a lot of the ordinary citizens of the EU member states.

    My primary reason for voting “No” was seeing such a major Treaty/Constitutional change being forced upon the people of Europe without the consent of the electorate and I know full well what the outcome would be in the UK alone. Why was this not put to the people of France and The Netherlands and why is a document which is required to streamline EU decision making made to be so ambiguos? Is it complex as a result of trying to ally 27 countries or is it deliberatley written to be mis-interpreted in future (energy resources spring to mind here). I was concerned when Mr Barroso told us saying “No” would result in Ireland becoming the first “victim”. This was not the correct message to be sending out. And just FYI – I would be more capitalist than socialist, I am highly critical of our public service and consider wages in Ireland far too high, I am an athiest and I do not cling to Ireland’s neutrality. Perhaps I was wrong on Thursday but personally I believe I made the correct decision.

  • Greenflag

    ‘I was concerned when Mr Barroso told us saying “No” would result in Ireland becoming the first “victim”.’

    Barroso was right in his prognosis re ‘victim’ but bloody stupid to say it .

    ‘ Is it complex as a result of trying to ally 27 countries or is it deliberatley written to be mis-interpreted in future ‘

    IMO more the former than the latter . The point is it was after all the result of a 7 year attempt to reform the workings of the EU Commission so that the EU doesn’t have a change of President every 6 months . The EU is not the USA , or Australia and will always be a continent of nation and multi national states .

    ‘My primary reason for voting “No” was seeing such a major Treaty/Constitutional change being forced upon the people of Europe without the consent of the electorate ‘

    Every member country of the EU is a democracy . Some countries use the mechanism of ‘referendum’ others believe that the ‘people’s elected representatives are the way to decide complex issues such as the Lisbon Treaty . We in Ireland are on of the few exceptions to the general rule throughout the EU because of our written Constitutional requirements .

    If Ireland had ‘processed ‘ this Treaty as it was ‘processed’ in most of the other countries there would have been a ‘free’ vote in the Dail there would have been a 150 to 8 vote for the YES side .

  • Dave

    Gach Anam, why don’t we let the two architects of the rejected Constitution treaty (rehashed as the Reform/Lisbon treaty) answer your question about why the treaty was written as unintelligible gibberish:

    Giuliano Amato, former Italian Prime Minister and the Vice President of the Convention which wrote the EU Constitution said on July 12th 2007 at a meeting of the Centre for European Reform that EU leaders had decided that the document should be unintelligible:

    “They decided that the document should be unreadable. If it is unreadable, it is not constitutional, that was the sort of perception. Where they got this perception from is a mystery to me. In order to make our citizens happy, to produce a document that they will never understand! But, there is some truth [in it]. Because if this is the kind of document that the IGC will produce, any Prime Minister – imagine the UK Prime Minister – can go to the Commons and say ‘Look, you see, it’s absolutely unreadable, it’s the typical Brussels treaty, nothing new, no need for a referendum.’ Should you succeed in understanding it at first sight there might be some reason for a referendum, because it would mean that there is something new.”

    Does that answer your question? He said it was a deliberate conspiracy by EU leaders to defraud the public. Let’s hear what the President of the Convention that wrote the EU Constitution, Valéry Giscard d’Estaing, had to say on June 14th, 2007, in Le Monde:

    “A last good idea consists of wanting to preserve part of the Constitution and camouflaging this by distributing it among several texts. The more innovative provisions [of the Constitution] would be simple amendments to the Nice and Maastricht treaties. The technical improvements would be gathered together in a bland and uncontroversial treaty. These texts would be put to Parliaments to vote on them one at a time. Thus public opinion would be led to accept, without knowing it, the proposals that we dare not present to them directly.”

    And on July 17th, 2007, he stated:

    “What was [already] difficult to understand will become utterly incomprehensible, but the substance has been retained… Why not have a single text? The only reason is that this would look too much like the constitutional treaty. Making cosmetic changes would make the text more easy to swallow.”

    Does that answer your question? If not, let’s hear what Jean-Luc Dehaene, the other and former Vice President of the Convention which wrote the EU Constitution, had to say on October 17th, 2007:

    “The paper [the Reform Treaty] is incomprehensible. Good! We need incomprehensible papers if we are to make progress… we have to be realistic.”

    Does that answer your question? If not, let’s hear what Dr Garret Fitzgerald had to say on June 30th, 2007:

    “Virtual incomprehensibility has thus replaced simplicity as the key approach to EU reform. As for the changes now proposed to be made to the constitutional treaty, most are presentational changes that have no practical effect. They have simply been designed to enable certain heads of government to sell to their people the idea of ratification by parliamentary action rather than by referendum.”

    Does that answer your question? They all freely admit that a conspiracy to commit fraud on the voters is the core dynamic. They are even proud of their contempt to the democratic process and their ability to circumvent it!

  • Greenflag

    Dave ,

    ‘Does that answer your question? They all freely admit that a conspiracy to commit fraud on the voters is the core dynamic. They are even proud of their contempt to the democratic process and their ability to circumvent it! ‘

    So what you are saying is that the euro politicians are freely admitting they intend to defraud and then go ahead and do so and they do this in the clear light of day -otherwise how can they be ‘quoted’ by yourself and others ?

    So next time I decide to rob a bank I’ll make sure to bring a loudspeaker and broadcast my intentions to the general public on the street outside in the hope that none will bother to call the police ?

    If we are to believe what you say -what we have here is a comic opera style version of ‘Yes Minister’ with Sir Humphrey representing the EU bureaucrats and an assortment of European politicians representing the Minister?

    ‘If it is unreadable,’

    How many ‘contract’ documents these days are unreadable by the general public and are only decipherable in their true ‘legal’meaning by the legal fraternity? The latter even make large sums of money on the different ways the real ‘meaning ‘ of documents, which their professional colleagues drew up, can be interpreted . They can spend days in court costing clients hundreds of thousands as they ‘debate’ the meaning of the ‘fine print ‘ .

    Look at any Life Insurance Contract -look at a credit card contract – look at any contract for the purchase of services or products anywwhere in the developed world and ask yourself how often do people read the fine print and of those who do how many actually fully understand what they are letting themselves in for? If we had to wait for everybody to understand 100% of every contract they sign in their daily lives the economic system would probably come to a standstill . There is a reason why many MP’s , TD’s, MEP’s , American Senators and Congressmen tend to be from the legal profession . They are the ones who draw up the legislation and even they get it wrong .

    I can just see legislators demanding that all legislation and every credit card contract etc should be written in plain english and understandable to all who can read basic english and must be in large print so that it can be read by more than 0.05% of the population .

    In daily life people decide whether they’ll sign up for something mostly on trust . Sadly this is why many get ‘suckered’ as they say by disreputable business’s and even more disreputable financial institutions . Very soon we should hear the reasons why top executives in Bear Sterns will be arrested in the near future .

    As to the matter of trust.

    Ireland’s experience with the EU from 1973 to the present has been one in which our ‘trust’ has been justified .

    If asked who would I trust the most with my political and economic future the EU or a mix of SF/Libertas/Ulster Unionists/British Tories , plus an assorted rag bag of racists of the ilk of the French Le Pen etc , I know who I’ll trust .

    That’s right -the side who have helped to deliver peace and prosperity to Ireland for the past 35 years ,to most of western europe for the past 60 years and to many of the newer members from eastern europe this past decade .

  • George

    “David Dukes the KKK Louisiana ranter made use of a Celtic Cross to symbolise his ‘white rights ‘ movement so it should be no surprise that like minded French ‘racists’ should find the ‘tricolour ‘ a handy little ‘diversion’ to advertise their ‘internationalist’ concerns .”

    The Celtic Cross of which you speak was the symbol of Hitler’s personal bodyguards, the Charlemagne SS.

    It has been a symbol of the far right long before the EU and has nothing to do with Ireland. Why are you throwing these types of red herrings into the argument?

  • Greenflag

    ‘The Celtic Cross of which you speak was the symbol of Hitler’s personal bodyguards, the Charlemagne SS.

    Your knowledge of the far right’s symbols and their origins is obviously of much greater depth than mine;

    ‘Why are you throwing these types of red herrings into the argument

    I don’t like to see the Irish Tricolour being waved about by Le Pen and like minded groups.

    The fact that you have expressed no discomfort with Le Pen and his ilk waving the Irish Tricolour is perhaps indicative as you would have said yourself of a very disturbing attitude to the far right nut jobs who pushed a No vote.:(

  • Dave

    “So what you are saying is that the euro politicians are freely admitting they intend to defraud and then go ahead and do so and they do this in the clear light of day -otherwise how can they be ‘quoted’ by yourself and others ?” – Greenflag

    Greenflag, do you have any idea how ridicious you look trying valiantly but vainly to defend the indensible? If not, let’s just say that you couldn’t look a bigger ass even if you were attached to the backside of Mary Harney.

    I don’t need to say it, child, because the principle fraudsters have said it.

    Giuliano Amato, former Italian Prime Minister and the Vice President of the Convention which wrote the EU Constitution said on July 12th 2007 at a meeting of the Centre for European Reform that EU leaders had decided that the document should be unintelligible: “They [the EU leaders] decided that the document should be unreadable.”

    This was confirmed by the other Vice President of the Convention which wrote the EU Constitution, Jean-Luc Dehaene: “The paper [the Reform Treaty] is incomprehensible. Good! We need incomprehensible papers if we are to make progress… we have to be realistic.”

    And it was confirmed by the President of the Convention that wrote the EU Constitution, Valéry Giscard d’Estaing:

    “A last good idea consists of wanting to preserve part of the Constitution and camouflaging this by distributing it among several texts. The more innovative provisions [of the Constitution] would be simple amendments to the Nice and Maastricht treaties. The technical improvements would be gathered together in a bland and uncontroversial treaty. These texts would be put to Parliaments to vote on them one at a time. Thus public opinion would be led to accept, without knowing it, the proposals that we dare not present to them directly.”

    And on July 17th, 2007, he stated:

    “What was [already] difficult to understand will become utterly incomprehensible, but the substance has been retained… Why not have a single text? The only reason is that this would look too much like the constitutional treaty. Making cosmetic changes would make the text more easy to swallow.”

    “I know who I’ll trust.” – Greenflag

    Yeah, id, you trust those who freely admit that they set out to defraud you, and are proud of it. That’s intelligent behaviour, isn’t it?

  • Greenflag

    Dave ,

    You’re repeating yourself . At least we know now that you are a supporter of SF & Libertas .

    Which side of the bed do you get out of in the morning the extreme left or the extreme right or do first consult your lawyer.

    The referendum result was a mistake a fact which many people are now beginning to wake up and take notice of . There will have to be another vote probably before the year end once the country has settled down and people can see through where the loo las have put the country .

  • George

    Greenflag,
    Your knowledge of the far right’s symbols and their origins is obviously of much greater depth than mine;

    You seem to be insinuating something sinister by that.

    But having read how much democracy scares you I’m not surprised that you also find knowledge intimidating.

    No doubt you’ll be advocating burning the book I read it in next.