Addicted to negotiations?

Ken Reid’s got some good detail on the outline of ‘the deal’ (which isn’t actually a deal, yet). Robinson gets to be FM tomorrow, but then external talks begin on a range of subjects. Most of these comprise Sinn Fein’s frustrated shopping list, with policing and justice at the top of the list, and “education, the Maze Prison complex, the future of the Irish Language Act and the viability of the mandatory form of executive also on the agenda”. This last is an insertion from the DUP, which suggests they may looking to up the price of any future deal.
The negotiations, will only include the ‘smoking break’ partners in the Executive, Sinn Fein and the DUP (the others must wait outside in ‘the corridor’). Downing Street will play host on Friday. The fact that policing and justice are back on an official agenda, may help calm some jangling nerves within the SF. More importantly perhaps: it usefully resets the problem outside the highly problematic question of dates. And it gives the SF leadership a ‘strategy’ to present to party activists, after last month’s timetable expired without the promised delivery.

  • You’re simply haggling over the numbers and scale

    Sorry? The numbers and scale are entirely relevant – indeed your outrageous claim is dependent on numbers and scale.

    Who knows where the involvement and collusion which is acknowledged and confirmed, where does it end.

    So you admit that you don’t know: there is no evidence. No-one in his right mind believes that the loyalist terrorist campaigns were being “masterminded” by Government intelligence. The existence of various instances of “collusion” (which in most cases means acts of omission rather than commission) does not demonstrate any “masterminding” of campaigns.

    God when will it end. It’s like NI History 101. There’s plenty of evidence of collusion -that produced by Stevens, that mentioned in the trial of Brian Nelson, the very fact that the base of the Special Branch was burned to the ground destroying the evidence, the evidence of people like Jonty Brown and others. If you continue to remain in denial about this, I will have to refer you to a psychotherapist of some description because I can’t help any further.

    I merely made the point that there’s no telling where the trail of collusion ends. It exists – and it will be followed. Your denial and apologia are evidence of the shame of a government and ruling regime which condoned and organised the murder of its own citizens and the subsequent cover up.


    The Cultúrlann is the centre of Irish language activity in West Belfast. So it’s natural to seek it there as it is to seek Irish speakers in the Conradh na Gaeilge facility in Derry….

    Thank you for reinforcing my point. In order to encounter Gaelic-speakers in west Belfast or Derry, I need to seek out specific places organised by Gaelic organisations. This is in contrast to large parts of Wales and to the Western Isles where I will naturally encounter Welsh- and Gaelic-speakers going about their everyday business and not confined to particular buildings.

    The fact is that the Census shows that there’s 167,000 in NI with knowledge of Irish – the fact that the information is not more detailed is the problem of the Census.

    “With knowledge of”!!! I have knowledge of French and Spanish. I don’t speak either as my first language!

    If you want a list of names and addresses of those who speak Irish in West Belfast, you should consult the organisers of Operation Motorman… There’s a half dozen Irish schools in West Belfast, an Irish language newspaper with which I worked, an Irish language radio station, a number of Irish language centres, a secondary school, numerous organisations, clubs and societies….an MP who makes a passable attempt at Irish. That’s all apart from the Cultúrlann where Irish is the first language as a matter of course. Irish is a living vibrant language in West Belfast and other parts of NI.

    The problem with the Census is not the problem of Irish speakers. That’s the way it is – and that’s the way it is with Welsh and Scots Gaelic also.

    People who speak Irish are naturally bilingual – it’s not their first language but they have more knowledge of it than the average person would have of a foreign language such as French and Spanish.

    Your observation regarding my unforgivable use of an apostrophe in a possessive pronoun are noted. I have foresworn myself from any such grammatical intervention in your posts though it is sorely tempting….

    If Scots Gaelic is to become an official language of Scotland, it’s not illogical nor is it unreasonable to assume that it will be a language of the courts in that eventuality.

    Your basis for this claim is what?

    Observation. Common sense. It’s common knowledge, man! What is the basis for your claim?

    You’ll pardon me if I don’t put any stock in your version of ‘observation.common sense, common knowledge’ – it’s too easy to confuse it with irrationality, inability to accept impirical evidence gathered here on the same basis as in other parts of the UK, prejudice (not to say bigotry). In all the posts on this topic, my evidence for my claims is sourced and clear. Yours is founded on your own limited experiences.

  • willowfield

    ZOONPOOL

    We joined the EEC in 1973 the law derived from the EEC had to be compatible with the ECHR.

    I think you’re confusing the EEC with the ECHR. They’re too separate things.

    Anyway, I asked you what was the relevance of this – why won’t you answer?

    PADDYREILLY

    You asked when a law had proved incompatible with ECHR.

    No – I asked what law Zoonpool was referring to that was incompatible with ECHR. He still hasn’t answered.

  • willowfield

    CONCUBIR

    There’s plenty of evidence of collusion –

    Please stop avoiding the question. Where is your evidence that the intelligence services “masterminded” the loyalist terrorist campaigns?

    If you continue to remain in denial about this

    I’m not in denial about anything. I have never denied that collusion occurred. On the contrary, I have acknowledged it. Stop trying to change the subject.

    Your denial and apologia are evidence of the shame of a government and ruling regime which condoned and organised the murder of its own citizens and the subsequent cover up.

    I immediately demand that you retract this OUTRAGEOUS slur against me. I have NEVER denied that there was collusion and certainly and absolute NEVER apologised for it. Shame on you! Shame on you!

    There’s a half dozen Irish schools in West Belfast, an Irish language newspaper with which I worked, an Irish language radio station, a number of Irish language centres, a secondary school, numerous organisations, clubs and societies….an MP who makes a passable attempt at Irish. That’s all apart from the Cultúrlann where Irish is the first language as a matter of course. Irish is a living vibrant language in West Belfast and other parts of NI.

    Blah, blah, blah, It still remains the case that I won’t encounter anyone speaking Gaelic in west Belfast unless I make a point of seeking it out at the Culturlann or somewhere similar. As I’ve stated on numerous occasions – that is in contrast to Welsh- and Gaelic-speaking districts of Wales and Scotland.

    People who speak Irish are naturally bilingual – it’s not their first language but they have more knowledge of it than the average person would have of a foreign language such as French and Spanish.

    Aha – so you admit that Gaelic is not their first language. That’s a big step back already. We’re making progress.

    If Scots Gaelic is to become an official language of Scotland, it’s not illogical nor is it unreasonable to assume that it will be a language of the courts in that eventuality.

    Aah … so you admit that your claim is merely an “assumption”. That’s a second step back.

    You’ll pardon me if I don’t put any stock in your version of ‘observation.common sense, common knowledge’ – it’s too easy to confuse it with irrationality, inability to accept impirical [sic] evidence gathered here on the same basis as in other parts of the UK, prejudice (not to say bigotry). In all the posts on this topic, my evidence for my claims is sourced and clear. Yours is founded on your own limited experiences.

    Your “evidence” (sorry, “impirical” evidence!) is the Census which includes people whose knowledge of Gaelic amounts to a few phrases learned in school. It provides absolutely no evidence of genuine Gaelic-speakers.

    Experience in real life in NI leads to the conclusion that such people are few and far between. Experience in Welsh-speaking districts of Wales and Gaelic-speaking districts of Scotland leads to the conclusion that genuine minority-language speakers exist there in numbers.

    You must know this to be true – you simply choose to exaggerate in order to advance a political agenda. Your posts are full of exaggerations, misrepresentations and unfounded personal allegations.

  • Dewi

    OK Willow – my English ain’t bad – should I have to speak it in court in Wales rather than my chosen language? That’s the point methinks.

  • Dewi

    I think your point is Willow that because the Imperial government were more successful in stamping out Irish than Welsh therefore Irish speakers should have less rights….please try and let your sense of justice defeat your pedantry.

  • willowfield

    I don’t really care about them speaking Gaelic in court. I’m just pointing out that (a) Gaelic is not treated any differently to other minority languages (which are spoken by more people) in the courts, and (b) not that many people speak Gaelic, contrary to what Concubar’s trying to spin.

  • Dewi

    “I don’t really care about them speaking Gaelic in court”

    What !!!!! – Honestly !! Sign the petition Willow.

  • ZoonPol

    WILLOWFIELD

    All member states of the EU must be members of the Council of Europe. In other words all 27 member states of the EU have signed up to the ECHR. All law from the EC must be compatitable with the ECHR – this is a logical progression so even though the ECHR is politically persuasive it is indirectly legally binding through EC laws.

    As for your other question i refer you to the many example laws that other bloggers have kindly provided.

  • PaddyReilly

    All law from the EC must be compatable with the ECHR

    I don’t think this is entirely true. Individual states are allowed to ‘derogate from’ (opt out of) particular clauses of the convention. The U.K. certainly has.

  • You must know this to be true – you simply choose to exaggerate in order to advance a political agenda. Your posts are full of exaggerations, misrepresentations and unfounded personal allegations.

    Pot, kettle.

    I immediately demand that you retract this OUTRAGEOUS slur against me. I have NEVER denied that there was collusion and certainly and absolute NEVER apologised for it. Shame on you! Shame on you!

    You’re being a bit of a drama queen now.
    Your constant denials of Security Force involvement/collusion with unionist terror groups leads me to believe that you are an apologist for this shameful role of the state services. I gave examples – including the Pat Finucane murder and the leaking of identification details to the UDA through Brian Nelson and you dismissed it as an isolated incident. The evidence is to the contrary that it was a pattern – the case of the Mount Vernon UVF comes to mind. How many informers were in that squad as it continued a murder campaign? Was there any member of that UVF squad who wasn’t on the state’s books. So no I won’t withdraw anything….

    You seem to think that shouting me down – blah blah blah – and misrepresenting my position in other posts is the way to win the argument. No it isn’t. Produce an impirical fact – rather than your own limited experiences – which contradicts the Census data, the Millward Brown survey, the number of people attending Irish medium schools etc.

    Your tendency to cite ‘experience in real life’ leads me to believe that your experience of same is limited. I don’t want to get personal but your adherence to your prehistoric point of view is so out of kilter with reality that it’s not funny any more…

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  • ZoonPol

    All law from the EC must be compatable with the ECHR

    I don’t think this is entirely true. Individual states are allowed to ‘derogate from’ (opt out of) particular clauses of the convention. The U.K. certainly has.

    You are correct PaddyReilly (Jun 05, 2008 @ 10:25 PM) in that all member states have these opt-out clauses however EC law per se is drafted in harmony with ECHR law: what it excludes from treaties, regulations and directions is as telling as what it includes. I am to understand the during the days of the failed EU Constitution they were trying to legally enforce the ECHR through a back-door or at least through a side entrance. This is arguably still true for if one finds an EC law that is to one’s advantage then the European Court of Justice will take it on for Human Rights is now included under the jurisprudence of this court – without prejudice to the European Court of Human Rights.

  • willowfield

    ZOONPOOL

    All member states of the EU must be members of the Council of Europe.

    Yeah, I know!

    All law from the EC must be compatitable with the ECHR – this is a logical progression so even though the ECHR is politically persuasive it is indirectly legally binding through EC laws.

    And? All UK domestic law must also be compatible with ECHR! Why are you bringing EC law into a discussion about Gaelic language??

    As for your other question i refer you to the many example laws that other bloggers have kindly provided.

    Not one person has referred to a law relevant to this discussion!

  • willowfield

    CONCUBINE

    Your constant denials of Security Force involvement/collusion with unionist terror groups leads me to believe that you are an apologist for this shameful role of the state services.

    Dirty, dirty liar. I have NEVER denied collusion, never mind “constantly” so. Retract this outrageous allegation IMMEDIATELY. You should be banned from this site forthwith.

  • You’re resorting to infantile insults and a puerile hissy fit now.

    Let’s get back to basics. There was collusion between unionist terror groups and the British intelligence services and the RUC, particularly the RUC Special Branch. This has been demonstrated by numerous reports and indepth journalistic investigations, namely the Stevens Report and, for instance, the John Ware investigation of the Pat Finucane murder and his interview of Ken Barrett.

    I’ve also mentioned the Mount Vernon crew of the UVF, which featured in a recent Spotlight, and the uncontested allegation that all of the members of that murderous group were informers for the Special Branch. At the same time they were drug dealing and killing.

    There are numerous other instances which scream ‘collusion’ – the Brian Nelson affair indicates that intelligence was being provided to unionist terrorists and assasins to help them kill the right targets. This they did with varied efficiency and accuracy.

    I think the case that I am arguing is uncontestable and uncontested by any rational observer. However you carp and harp on about ‘evidence’ and every time I direct you in the direction of evidence, you try and dismiss it or just ignore it. Which leads me to conclude you’re an apologist for all of this.

    I made the observation which sparked your ill founded ire as a response to an ignorant comment from Bonar Law which I include for your information:

    Concubhar O Liatháin

    Finchley, not being subject to Scots or Welsh language legislation is a bad example.

    As for your other point, AFIK neither Welsh or Scots Gaelic have been appropriated by a murderous campaign whose aim is to obliterate Wales or Scotland from the map.

    Now I consider that comment illfounded and inflammatory. I responded by pointing out:

    As for your asinine remark regarding the ‘murderous campaign’ – it’s rather shortsighted. After all it was Paisley who started the violence, wasn’t it? With his ill thought out raid on the Falls in 1964. It was the UVF who started the murder and it was a loyalist who first shot a police man in 1969. So if you want to trade historical facts, we can stay here all day. However I have better things to do….

    This prompted this rather one sided response from Bonar Law, a poster who takes his name from the British Prime Minister who encouraged the foundation of the UVF and its arming in 1912, a name which suggests ‘collusion’ at the highest level:

    Concubhar O Liatháin

    you are confused with Balfour. In any event it didn’t work did it?

    As for “murderous campaign”, I think you will find it accurately covers republican activity during the “Troubles”. And UVF activity, and UDA activity, and LVF activity etc, etc…

    So that led to this:
    As for the present day Bonar Law and his catalogue of participants in the ‘murderous campaign’, he omitted inexplicably the British Army (remember Bloody Sunday!) and the various intelligence (surely some mistake) boffins who masterminded the alphabet spaghetti of unionist terror groups, the UVF, UDA, YCV, LVF, RHC etc.

    I notice that you didn’t object to my observations regarding Bloody Sunday and the British miltary’s involvement in that massacre of UK citizens and the subsequent attempted cover up, extending to the present day blocking at every turn of the working of a very expensive tribunal.

    Each of the above named Unionist terror groups has benefited from British state collusion in pursuit of misguided policies. That’s uncontested except by the very myopic or the unashamed apologist.

    In short, I retract nothing. My observations on this topic are non controversial. And they are based on facts, reports, etc. That you harp on about ‘evidence’ indicates that either you can’t or won’t see what’s plain to see – that the entire edifice of British involvement in NI was corrupt to the point that it saw no problem in ordering, organising and covering up the murder of citizens it considered a threat.

  • I also note your attempt at censorship: You should be banned from this site forthwith

    This is also a tactic of those for whom you are an apologist. If you can’t silence the voice of opposition through bullying and marginalisation, then what?

    It’s not funny any more. Nor is it even remotely interesting to me. It’s fairly clear what my interests are – the promotion of the Irish language – but you clearly don’t agree. I have no interest in carrying on a conversation with an abusive cypher hiding under a nom de plume….

  • Ahem

    Concubhar, your repetitive, partisan political prejudice disfigures every ‘argument’ you affect to advance in favour of ‘the Irish language’ (by which, of course, you actually mean, at best, an Irish language).

    Unionists specifically, and students of language more generally, might well be up for listening to disinterested discussions about gaeilge, but from someone who addessed them precisely in those terms (ie studiously apolitical). Someone whose utterly tedious agenda of undisguised (go back and read your cawing posts, dripping with the most clichéd Republican tropes) ethno-linguistic nationalism really is the language’s worst enemy here on Slugger. In fact, here’s a sad little hint for you: if you really wished gaeilge well, and wished to advance its cause (as opposed to nakedly using it to try, however unsuccessfully, to advance Republican political objectives), the best favour you could do it would be to, well, shut up. Certainly shut up in English. I don’t suspect you’ll do it much harm if you keep wittering on thus in ‘Irish’.

  • Gee, Ahem, that’s instructive. The problem is that Unionists have politicised the language to such an extent that it’s impossible to address it in any other way, with remarks like those by Bonar Law as a prime example of this.

    This advice to shut up to help the Irish language is so typical of those who wish to censor and marginalise. It tells me that you have lost the argument entirely and you have no other recourse except this schoolyard tactic of intimidation and bullying.

    So pardon me if I treat this comment and your other ‘contributions’ to every debate, characterised as they are by your own prehistoric prejudices, with the contempt they deserve.

  • Ahem

    Presumably that’s the last we’ll ever hear from Concubhar, as if one thing’s sure, he *must* have rolled over and died of shame after typing out the galactic-class piece of hypocrisy that is, “the problem is that Unionists have politicised the language to such an extent that it’s impossible to address it in any other way”?

    Connie, no one on this site politicises gaeilge anywhere near as much as your single transferable posting does (cf. your witlessly incessant intoning of partisan Republican shibboleths on this very thread). Seriously, if you actually wished gaeilge well, talk about it, stop droning on and on about your pet Republican peeves.

    You are the single worst advertisement for gaeilge on Slugger and have single handedly brought its advocacy here into contempt. As someone whose great and great-great grandparents gave house space to truly sincere men like Synge, it’s a crying shame to see advocacy of the language decline into the hands of politically partisan bores such as yourself. Give it a rest Con, you’re doing ‘Irish’ no end of harm.

  • willowfield

    Concubar

    You must IMMEDIATELY retract the outrageous and totally unfounded and serious allegations that you have levelled against me. I have NEVER denied that there was collusion and I have NEVER apologised for collusion. Absolutely NEVER and for you not only to say that I have, but to say that I “constantly” do so is absolutely scandalous and must be retracted. You should also make an apology to me for such a disgusting slur against my reputation.

    It is, to say the least, disappointing that, rather than retract the allegations and apologise, you have chosen to reiterate them. Clearly, as an individual, you lack integrity.

    The discussion was not about collusion, but about your outrageous claim that Government intelligence “masterminded” the loyalist terrorist campaigns. You have no evidence for this – it is an unfounded assertion – and no amount of references to particular incidences of collusion can amount to a demonstration that the campaigns were “masterminded” by anyone other than the loyalists themselves. Agents were protected, of course, and this led to the disgraceful and unacceptable and unjustifiable policy, in some cases, of agents being allowed to continue with their crimes with impunity. But to jump from that to a claim that the loyalist campaigns were “masterminded” is pure fantasy.

    This thread has demonstrated that clearly you are prone to wild exaggeration – both in relation to this and your claims about Gaelic-speakers. It seems that either you are a cynical, dishonest person, who will stretch the truth (or even lie) to try to win an argument, or some kind of Walter Mitty character.

    Hang your head in shame.

  • Your ad hominem attacks are not going to shut me up. You are unable to deal with the arguments which I’ve advanced – so you just resort to abuse. Who appointed you spokesperson for Slugger?
    Are you like Devalera? Do you think that you can look into your heart to discern what the common good is? Go away and boil your head in cement – come back with solid argument and not boring abuse.

    It’s not I alone who said that unionists had politicised Irish – I recall the point being made by Steven Farry in the Assembly in response to the decision by Edwin Poots not to proceed with the Irish Language Act.

    Unionists had many opportunities to act for the Irish language, but resorted to bigotry at every turn since the foundation of the NI state in 1921. And it seems that bigotry persists to this day and its apologists, Ahem and others, seem to think they can maintain the line.

    The party’s over, a bhuachaillí!

  • Concubar

    You must IMMEDIATELY retract the outrageous and totally unfounded and serious allegations that you have levelled against me. I have NEVER denied that there was collusion and I have NEVER apologised for collusion. Absolutely NEVER and for you not only to say that I have, but to say that I “constantly” do so is absolutely scandalous and must be retracted. You should also make an apology to me for such a disgusting slur against my reputation.

    It is, to say the least, disappointing that, rather than retract the allegations and apologise, you have chosen to reiterate them. Clearly, as an individual, you lack integrity.

    The discussion was not about collusion, but about your outrageous claim that Government intelligence “masterminded” the loyalist terrorist campaigns. You have no evidence for this – it is an unfounded assertion – and no amount of references to particular incidences of collusion can amount to a demonstration that the campaigns were “masterminded” by anyone other than the loyalists themselves. Agents were protected, of course, and this led to the disgraceful and unacceptable and unjustifiable policy, in some cases, of agents being allowed to continue with their crimes with impunity. But to jump from that to a claim that the loyalist campaigns were “masterminded” is pure fantasy.

    This thread has demonstrated that clearly you are prone to wild exaggeration – both in relation to this and your claims about Gaelic-speakers. It seems that either you are a cynical, dishonest person, who will stretch the truth (or even lie) to try to win an argument, or some kind of Walter Mitty character.

    Hang your head in shame.

    Just read again what you’ve written: It seems that you’re cavilling at the use of the word masterminded. OK I retract ‘masterminded’. After all it couldn’t have been a mastermind who came up with the idea that NI would be served by several groups of Unionist murdering drug dealers – or unionist drug dealing murderers[whatever] – wandering around killing non combatant Catholics. The British security apparatus, at your own admission, colluded with unionist terror groups. They protected agents – of course – and, as demonstrated in the case of Brian Nelson, fed them targetting information. These Unionist terror groups were allowed to continue their crime sprees with impunity, poisoning their own communities with drugs – your own admission – as it fitted with the British security agenda [my conclusion]. No unionist politician took them on – in fact the DUP got involved in an organisation which smuggled guns and other weapons to loyalists, weapons which are still not beyond use. If it didn’t fit the British security agenda, I can only surmise that the reason for the collusion was that the British Security Apparatus is a criminal organisation.

    So let me put it like this – the alphapet soup of Unionist terrorist groups and death squads wasn’t masterminded by the British Security Establishment. It was mismanaged by the British Security Establishment.

    You have failed to counter my arguments regarding the Irish language and now you resort to this dramatic diversion in order to cover up that failure.

  • You must IMMEDIATELY retract the outrageous and totally unfounded and serious allegations that you have levelled against me. I have NEVER denied that there was collusion and I have NEVER apologised for collusion. Absolutely NEVER and for you not only to say that I have, but to say that I “constantly” do so is absolutely scandalous and must be retracted. You should also make an apology to me for such a disgusting slur against my reputation.

    This is hilarious stuff! Keep it up willowfield – I’ve never seen such a hissy-fit on the web before.

    Your ‘reputation’ – that’s priceless. You’re a shadow that hides behind a false name. You have no reputation. Your false name does, though – a reputation as a tedious pedant whose extreme unionist views are well known to all who sail in the Good Ship Slugger. If anything, Concubhar has been quite reasonable with you – your years of sterling service to this web site have certainly never given anyone the impression that you were so OUTRAGED by collusion. Quite the opposite, in fact.

  • Ahem

    Yet one more Republican rant from the supposed voice of gaeilge here on Slugger. Hilarious. It’s about this time that I normally suggest that someone so blind as to their own actions must be a Unionist wind-up job, as no one could really be this dense. In your case, however, you truly are the real deal aren’t you? You actually can’t see how boring on and on about the ‘politicisation’ of gaeilge, whilst with every post making pro-Republican political points, doesn’t tally. Amazing, utterly, scientifically amazing. Out of interest, can you feed yourself?

  • willowfield

    I note that you still have neither retracted your allegations nor apologised, even though you have conceded above that they were unfounded.

    I should also recall that you engaged in sectarian personal abuse against me. You should also apologise for that.

  • willowfield

    Above was to Concubar.

  • Ahem

    Don’t worry Willow, Concubhar’s sectarian abuse of you doubtless qualifies in his own mind as sterling advocacy of gaeilge. A good morning’s work in fact for him. It almost makes you wonder quite was ‘Irish’ is the soaraway linguistic success it is with stalwart defenders like ould Connie there.

  • I have not conceded anything except that there was no mastermind behind the Unionist terror groups and death squads. Mastermind is not a word you’d associate with such a bloody mess. The British did have a management role, providing information and instructions, paying killers, protecting them from prosecution.

    What sectarian abuse? And who are YOU? Someone hiding behind a nom de plume like your abusive compadre, Ahem, who also is afraid to come out from behind his name?

    You’re nothing but cowards.

    That’s to WIllowfield and Ahem…..in case of any misunderstanding.

    And for Ahem’s information – these are not republican points, they’re facts. They come from such sources as Lord Stevens, the transcripts of the Brian Nelson trial, the BBC’s John Ware….

    When you get a grip on reality, perhaps you can point out to me what republican links any of the above mentioned parties might be tarred with.

  • Ahem

    Erratum*: for “was” read “why”.

    *Oh dear, I’ve only just realised, using Latin will only seem like yet another imperialist plot to extinguish peripheral European tongues to the dear, demented Conster.

  • Ahem

    If you want to advocate the merits of gaeilge, advocate the merits of gaeilge. If you want to make Republican political points, make Republican political points. If you want gaeilge defended against the charge that its all too often employed as a Republican political point by those only interested in making Republican political points, from the plentiful evidence of this thread, gaeilge really needs a much better friend than you.

  • ZoonPol

    Willowfield the dialogue stated about
    Administration of Justice (Language) Act (Ireland) 1737 but without reinventing the wheel can end this and say we are all right?

    This Act did discriminate against Irish speakers so Seimi is right by inferring that it was policy to do – it is part of our shared history.

    This Act was passed in the Old Irish Parliament which is no more – therefore no one is bound by this law so you are right to infer that discrimination does not occur.

    I was making the point that we are obliged to follow EC law and this law is drafted in harmony with the ECHR so if the above Act was still on the statute books and if it was relied upon it would fail.

  • willowfield

    Concubar

    I have not conceded anything except that there was no mastermind behind the Unionist terror groups and death squads. Mastermind is not a word you’d associate with such a bloody mess.

    Er, that’s what we were arguing about.

    What sectarian abuse?

    At 3.35pm yesterday you referred to my “redneck Orange tinted view of the world”.

    Retract and apologise IMMEDIATELY your scurrilous allegations against me in relation to collusion. Do so now. You must also retract the personal sectarian abuse. This is a serious discussion forum – not a saloon bar for you to engage in unfounded accusations and sectarian name-calling. As Ahem says, you do nothing for the case for the Gaelic language – your off-topic political rants and sectarian allegations merely reinforce the stereotype that those advocating it do so as political “republicans” and not as language-enthusiasts.

  • willowfield

    ZoonPool – you’re talking nonsense. The Act in question is still in force and everyone is bound by it. It is relied upon and it does not fail. It’s got nothing whatsoever to do with EC law. (And, incidentally, its aim was not to discriminate against Gaelic-speakers but to remove archaic and legalistic languages like Latin and French from the courts – it was a replica of a similar English Act.)

  • You’re using Latin now, Ahem. Anyone dropping in on this site might mistake you for an intellectual. Perhaps you should go and see the kind Christian gentleman recommended by Iris Robinson for such problems.

    And don’t kid yourself. Your exhortations for me to desist from advocacy on behalf of what I see as the advancement of the Irish language in order to help the language’s cause fool no one.

    As if you were a friend of the Irish language yourself. I don’t recall you advocating the cause of Irish in any post I’ve read from you.

    In fact, I came across this remark from you on another thread which seems to indicate that I’m on the right track according to your ‘logic’. Your constant protests to the contrary only reinforce this point:

    As far as the Punt’s speech goes, Budget rules applies. Which is to say, the worse the usual nodding dogs in the press/liberal numpties in the media/nationalist posters on Slugger abuse something, the better it is. Or, of course, vice versa. Hence the more then reliably wrong praise it (cf. this thread), the worse it in fact was.

    Bear with me – this is as difficult as translating unseen Virgil but what I can gather from this garble is that the more protests a speech provokes from nationalists, the better it is.

    By that logic, I must be winning.
    Thanks for the vote of confidence

  • Concubar

    I have not conceded anything except that there was no mastermind behind the Unionist terror groups and death squads. Mastermind is not a word you’d associate with such a bloody mess.

    Er, that’s what we were arguing about.

    So you obviously agree with me – the British did manage – I prefer mismanage – the Unionist terror alphabet soup.

    What sectarian abuse?

    At 3.35pm yesterday you referred to my “redneck Orange tinted view of the world”.

    Retract and apologise IMMEDIATELY your scurrilous allegations against me in relation to collusion. Do so now. You must also retract the personal sectarian abuse. This is a serious discussion forum – not a saloon bar for you to engage in unfounded accusations and sectarian name-calling. As Ahem says, you do nothing for the case for the Gaelic language – your off-topic political rants and sectarian allegations merely reinforce the stereotype that those advocating it do so as political “republicans” and not as language-enthusiasts.

    I apologise and retract. Your constant and incessant anti Irish is not inspired by a red neck Orange tinted view of the world – it is only a view which closely resembles such a prehistoric prejudicial perspective.

    As for your reference to Ahem’s ‘post’, I can only remark that I have never read one comment from you which supports the promotion in any way of the Irish language in NI so I will view with considerable suspicion the implication of your remarks that you are a friend of the language…..

    However, if you are in fact a friend of the language, I recommend you join Conradh na Gaeilge/The Gaelic League, http://www.cnag.ie. The national Irish language organisation has recently discarded its political aspirations in favour of a purely language restoration purpose.

  • Ahem

    You’ve certainly demonstrated that English comprehension isn’t your forte. Perhaps there’s more than one good reason why you should stick to typing only in ‘Irish’? You’re certainly, when you turn to typing in English, not making gaeilge any friends here by your evidently uncontrollable preference for attempted Republican point-scoring, as opposed to, say, apolitical advocacy of the language. Still, we can all be the happy that the language doesn’t stand or fall solely by your rather tainted case for it.

  • Ahem,

    Do you actually call that ‘English’? It’s fluent gobbledegook with a distinct twang of Unionist-speak.

    I recommend you attend an Irish medium school in order to get a better appreciation of the English language.

    Given that the Irish language has emerged as an issue in the current political developments, it’s pretty pointless to be making apolitical points on the matter on this thread…..and it has to be said that the repression of Irish by the Unionist and British Establishment in NI over the years was a political project, so it’s doubly pointless in not dealing with that reality on a political level.

    Give over the ad hominem stuff – if you want an argument, deal with the issues….coherently if possible.

  • Ahem

    So Connie *is* a Unionist wind-up after all. There being no way anyone actually could be so lacking in self-awareness as to start denouncing others for their ‘ad hominem stuff’ after his contributions to this thread. Still, as piss-takes go, the imitation of the all too typical advocate of gaeilge, endlessly stirring in irrelevant Republicanism, was sadly all too accurate. I do hope genuine advocates of gaeilge learn from this near-Swiftian rebuke to the Republican cuckoos in their midst.

  • Ulster Scot

    Now that the IRA have been defeated and surrendered to the British Army, and SF have accepted British rule in this part of the UK, they are powerless to respond to the policies of the DUP, and instead have to go begging to the British government for assistance.

  • willowfield

    So you obviously agree with me – the British did manage – I prefer mismanage – the Unionist terror alphabet soup.

    You’re still engaging in hyperbole. Of course they didn’t “manage” the loyalist terrorist campaigns. Some in the Security services managed some individuals who were informers. You can’t avoid over-stating the case about everything, can you?

    I apologise and retract. Your constant and incessant anti Irish is not inspired by a red neck Orange tinted view of the world – it is only a view which closely resembles such a prehistoric prejudicial perspective.

    What are you apologising for and retracting? Just the sectarian abuse or also the scandalous allegations re. collusion?

  • Your hamfisted attempt at literary allusion is no substitute for coherence.
    Your faux ‘friendship’ of the Irish language is no substitute for actual support.
    Your ad hominmem abuse is no substitute for actual argument on the issue at hand.
    Your pseudo intellectual ‘superiority’ complex is no substitute for actual intellect or integrity.
    Your cowardice is the only given.
    Come out from behind your phlegmatic pen name and argue with integrity and courage.
    On top of all that, you’re a gob shite and a great advertisement for being on the other side of the argument to you.

  • So you obviously agree with me – the British did manage – I prefer mismanage – the Unionist terror alphabet soup.

    You’re still engaging in hyperbole. Of course they didn’t “manage” the loyalist terrorist campaigns. Some in the Security services managed some individuals who were informers. You can’t avoid over-stating the case about everything, can you?

    I don’t think I’m overstating the case – they paid informers who were murdering non combatants and poisoning their own communities while unionist public representatives sat idly by. They provided target information which amounted to direction. They covered up the crimes in which they were involved and tried to cover up their involvement. That amounts to management in my eyes – or mismanagement.

    I apologise and retract. Your constant and incessant anti Irish is not inspired by a red neck Orange tinted view of the world – it is only a view which closely resembles such a prehistoric prejudicial perspective.

    What are you apologising for and retracting? Just the sectarian abuse or also the scandalous allegations re. collusion?

    It’s clear what my point of view is.

    Ulster Scot –

    This is a hijacked identity with no grounding in reality in modern day Ireland. It’s a product of feverish Unionist myth making to avoid the use of the word Irish. And if Ahem and Willowfield want to see how a culture has been appropriated for political purposes, they should direct their attention to the funding of an album of Orange party songs, all in English, by the Ulster Scots Agency in cahoots with the Orange Order. That’s clearly political appropriation.

  • willowfield

    I don’t think I’m overstating the case – they paid informers who were murdering non combatants and poisoning their own communities while unionist public representatives sat idly by. They provided target information which amounted to direction. They covered up the crimes in which they were involved and tried to cover up their involvement. That amounts to management in my eyes – or mismanagement.

    Get a dictionary. Management means being in charge of and controlling. Some security agents may have controlled some informers but to extrapolate from this that the whole loyalist campaigns were “managed” by “the British” (while – inconveniently for your fantasy – at the same time “the British” were successfully prosecuting more “loyalists” than “republicans”) is a pathetic and desperate exaggeration.

    Have you retracted your allegations against me, or did the retraction and apology relate only to the sectarian abuse?

  • I know now what this is about Willowfield. You recognise that the British are guilty of heinous collusion with Unionist terrorists/criminals in the murder of UK citizens and you’re attempting to plea bargain on their behalf. You’re not arguing with the substance of what I say but you’re trying to get me to drop from mastermind to management and now to something lesser again. Any suggestions? Perhaps the British only provided the tea…..?

  • Ahem

    Too, too amusing for words (either in English or gaeilge). What ‘other side’ is there Connie? I’ve argued throughout that gaeilge ought to be advocated by people who advocate gaeilge, as opposed to being abused by Republicans, endlessly making Republican points, and unconvincingly wrapping them in an Irish figleaf (see your posts on this thread passim, or, for that matter, the toe-curling embarrassment that is Adams’ fumbling efforts at a sentence or too in ‘Irish’ before his Anglophone press conferences). It’s a pity you lack the nous to hide your rabid Republicanism. Hopefully the next, rather more sincere advocate of gaeilge to single transferrably post on Slugger won’t suffer likewise from your political obsessions, and will actually be genuinely interested in the language for its own sake.

  • willowfield

    Concubar

    Have you retracted your allegations against me, or did the retraction and apology relate only to the sectarian abuse?

  • I’m glad you find it amusing – though it’s tragic to see someone laughing when that person is the joke. Your pseudo literacy can’t obscure your bigotry and your predisposal to censorship of views which don’t accord with your own.

    I’m surprised too that a poster of your obvious ego has spent so much time in these ad hominem attacks aimed at me – as if you expect me to collapse in a blubbering heap. You’re not in the schoolyard bullying little infants any more – this is a forum for grown ups.

    I’m no apologist for Gerry Adams or SInn Féin as you seem to think – any casual reader of my posts over the past while will note that I am deeply sceptical of SF’s attitude to the Irish language. So I won’t defend Gerry Adams and his poor command of the Irish language – though I think that he’s right to use it and to try and improve it.

    What strikes me about your argument, such as it is, is what you appear to want is to hand pick your opponent. Like the Orange men who wouldn’t deal with resident groups because they objected to the membership of such groups, you want to denigrate the opposition as some form of extremist.

    I actually don’t enjoy rehashing the recent history of British/Unionist involvement in terror campaigns and death squads over the years of the troubles – but when I read posts like that posted by Bonar Law who seems to think that to come from a nationalist background/community disqualifies one from having a genuine interest in the promotion of the Irish language and who phrases this in terms of associating Irish with a ‘murderous campaign’ I won’t draw back from pointing out the obvious. There were two sides to the equation – both of them with blood on their hands and the British hands are as bloody as any others.

    Willow took up the baton where Bonar Law left off basically in order to obscure his own failed arguments, where he was out argued with facts and statistics which removed the basis for his anti Irish position. So I continued.

    I would prefer myself to continue arguments on the Irish language on the basis of the language – and not the politics of the Troubles. But this is not a black and white issue with firm lines delineating that which is political and that which is not.

    However the wont of WIllowfield and co is to throw everything into the mix in order to confuse the issue and all entreaties to stick to the topic fall on deaf ears.

    So if you want a grown up debate on the Irish language, go ahead. I’m ready to engage. Otherwise you will have to continue in monologue mode.

  • Ahem

    Poor you. Is there nothing us evil Unionists won’t do? But you’re surely right. Our basest crime – O the competition! – has to be forcing you to post Republican post after Republican post, when all along all you wanted to do was disinterestedly tell us about the apolitical merits of gaeilge. Wicked, wicked us.

  • I wouldn’t say ‘wicked’.

    Witless, perhaps….

  • willowfield

    … where he was out argued with facts and statistics which removed the basis for his anti Irish position.

    LOL!

    He means Census figures – which don’t distinguish between genuine speakers and those who only know a few words.

  • You should try some honesty Willowfield.

    Census figures weren’t the only figures I cited, although the fact that number of people saying they have knowledge is growing from census to census is important to note. I pointed to the Millward Brown survey, the results of which were consistent with the Census in that 10% of the NI population said they watched Irish language programmes on TV. I pointed to the growth in the number of children attending Irish medium schools and the growth in demand for schools throughout NI. That paints a picture which is very clear to those whose vision isn’t obscured by prejudice – the Irish language community in NI is on the up despite all the attempts by unionists to do it down. It won’t be suppressed….

    I haven’t gone away you know, Willowfield…..

  • Ahem

    Of course you haven’t. You’re still here. This time making the case for gaeilge by, er, comparing yourself to Gerry Adams’ infamous remark about the Provisional IRA. Golly, it’s almost as if in every post you made, you somehow managed to intertwine pretended affection for gaeilge with monomaniacal assertion of Republican prejudices. Who’d have guessed?

  • willowfield

    Census figures weren’t the only figures I cited

    Oops, sorry, there was also the people who tuned in occasionally to Gaelic TV!

  • willowfield

    Concubar

    Have you retracted your allegations against me, or did the retraction and apology relate only to the sectarian abuse?

  • No and I won’t. You’re a dishonest debater whose argument has no integrity whatsoever. Your rants amount to trolling of the lowest order and I won’t waste any more of my time with you or your partner in trollery, Ahem.

  • Ahem

    Tremendous work Connie! That’s the way to advance your genuine and sincere interest in ‘Irish’. The friends you’ve won the language on this thread with your smears, abuse and political hi-jacking! As your leader almost said, well done Concubhar!

  • Coming from you, Ahem, I’ll take that as a compliment.

    Your own generosity of spirit, your sense of fair play and your ‘céad míle fáílte’ to diverse opinions and cultures is undoubtedly something trollery considers an asset…..

    Come back to debate when you’re grown up….

  • willowfield

    Concubar

    Have you retracted your allegations against me, or did the retraction and apology relate only to the sectarian abuse?

    No and I won’t. You’re a dishonest debater whose argument has no integrity whatsoever.

    This is outrageous. You have made scurrilous, unfounded, allegations against me which you refuse to retract, and then you call me dishonest! I challenge you now to cite one instance ever on Slugger where I have been dishonest.

    You’re a pathetic character, completely lacking in integrity, who prefers to engage in exaggerations and unfounded allegations, rather than in honest debate.

    Utterly pathetic. A schoolboy would offer a more mature discussion.

  • Ahem

    He’s a Republican Willow. What more can you expect? He no more cares about ‘Irish’ than he does about Pluto. And he’s been all too well shown up on this thread for what he is. A canting sectarian, keen to lie about those he dislikes, and utterly indifferent to the collateral damage he thereby does to the things he’s pretending to care about (in this case, supposedly apolitical linguistic advocacy). No one who truly cared about ‘Irish’ could possibly have put in the performance Connie has (on this, and countless other threads). But then of course he gives not one hoot for gaeilge – this was always about advancing his Republican political obsessions, and to hell with anything else. You’ve done good work in exposing him Willow and you should be happy with that.

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