On the abuse of the new media….

No comment.

  • SlugFest

    Mark,

    where is this video playing? where did you find it/how did you hear about it?

  • Mark McGregor

    SlugFest,

    Where have you been hiding?

    The news

  • SlugFest

    “Where have you been hiding?”

    Under a rock, apparently. Apologies!

    And now I’m off to catch up on the news.

  • BfB

    Islam is islam…no moderate, only silence. Silence is consent. Brilliant little start. I’ll call this Dutchman a brave hero. Willing to risk his life to preserve his country. A concept seemingly lost to most of the eurocowards, fiddling away while the monster grows to kill them.
    Tsk, tsk.

  • Charles in Texas

    Mark, Your “no comment” tag seems to intimate that you support this film be censored.

    So Slugger has freedom of speech on the internet, but showing this film is “abusing” it?

  • Prince Eoghan

    I suppose we are all inured to the kind of violence that was on the video. Never mind the army getting into schools to recruit vulnerable young people, let them see that and they will have an enemy for life.

    As someone who would be from the left of the equation, and supposedly more tolerant, I would have to say that there must be a no holds barred conversation as to where we are going in Europe right now. Multiculturalism has clearly failed!

  • Moochin Photoman

    jaysus thats a bit strong
    a depressing video but i can’t but help think that it’s easy enough to cobble this sort of thing together to put across a racist agenda.
    As i have said in other threads i’m seeing an increase of the swastika being scrawled across the city along with the “keep ulster white”, “this is belfast not bangladesh” “they didn’t die for a multicultural ulster” etc etc.
    We have to take a very firm stance on the growth and spread of such like.
    Dialogue is the only way forward because in a vacuum, there are those that will step in to ferment the type of extremism (religious, racist or otherwise) seen in this video.

  • Harry Flashman

    How exactly is this an “abuse” of new media, or any media?

    Is Islam now to be elevated beyond criticism?

    For half a century we’ve enjoyed the freedom to criticise, condemn and yes ridicule any institution we so desire; the Catholic Church, the British royal family and presidents of the US among many, many other institutions have all had to endure massive scrutiny, they have been lampooned and viciously attacked and they’ve just had to put up with it.

    That is exactly as it should be.

    Can someone please explain to me why one of the most misogynistic, anti-Semitic and homophobic philosophies on planet earth should get such a free pass that to dare even illuminate its wilder teachings gets condemned as “racist” (despite it not even being a race!)?

    Mark, you’ll have to come back again old son and explain your “abuse” and “no comment” comments.

  • Northern Boy

    A good message, but overdone by cut and paste jobs from newspapers and youtube. It would not be too difficult to cobble together a montage of Christian leaders inciting hatred, of soldiers (e.g. Serbian and Croatian), kissing crosses and being blessed by priests before killing Muslim civilians. The terror in Srebrenica and Eastern Bosnia, where Muslims were subjected to a campaign of genocide (which been judicially established, so I am not cheapening the concept) equals anything carried out by bearded lunatics who understand nothing.

    Islam is far more complicated than terror and hate, although it clearly includes that. The majority of Muslims are very tolerant, and having spent over 5 years living in a predominantly Muslim city, I can vouch for that first-hand.

    However, there are clearly many dangerous depraved people out there and the issue needs to be addressed, as history shows that small groups of fanatics can seize control while the rest of us carry on oblivious.

    NB

  • Jo

    1.5 billion people in the world follow Islam.

    Thats 1/5 of the planets population.

    If they were all bent on killing the rest of us, we wouldn’t be alive today to see these things or type these words.

    One might have thought that of all places in the world, we might have seen that identifying an entire group with the views of a part of the group might not be a sensible or indeed, accurate thing to do.

    But then again…

  • Jo

    “Islam is far more complicated than terror and hate”

    Indeed.

    Now – lets think whose purposes it serves to depict the entirety of Islam with hatred of the West and ask 2 questions:

    Which powerful group would like to bring on a world-engulfing conflict leading to “The Rapture”?

    What are sane people going to do about the latter group of lunatics (with access to the most powerful destructive force in the world) AS WELL AS those lunatics who use their own bodies and explosives to cause destruction?

  • Ulsters my homeland

    This is utterly disastrous, it’s like a modern day counter-reformation.

  • Im not against this video being posted up, although I cannot see what purpose it will serve bar bringing the bigots out of the woodwork. To me all religion is the curse of human kind and I could have if I had the skill or the cash, have made a similar movie about any one of the world major region’s. Indeed the record of islam compared to Christianity is almost pacifist. As a former Archbishop of Canterbury once said, without Christianity there would have been no Auschwitz although I am a little surprised Mark felt it necessary to blog this piece.

  • Harry Flashman

    “Islam is far more complicated than terror and hate”

    Nobody would deny that, and the Catholic Church is far more complicated than paedophile priests and the presidency of the United States is much more complicated than a refuge for boozed out frat boys but there have been gazillions of instances in the recent past when they have been lampooned and caricatured as such. Both the Catholic Church and the US presidency merely had to take the hard knocks and get on with it.

    Why should Islam be any different?

    As someone who loves and cherishes my many Muslim friends and family members I assure you that the best thing that could happen to Islam is for it to be subject to exactly the same sort of scrutiny that any other institution in the modern world has to undergo.

    If you are confident and secure in your religious beliefs then you can have no objection to strong vigorous criticism, the Catholics have discovered that so have Bible believing Christians among others, why should Islam get a free pass?

  • Harry Flashman

    *Indeed the record of islam compared to Christianity is almost pacifist.*

    The Hindus of India might quibble a bit with that Mick, I’m no apologist for Christianity but let’s not lose the run of ourselves with regard to Islam’s record.

    By the way despite the Archbishop’s coments it’s not entirely clear how you can link the activities of the specifically anti-Christian Nazis, who chose as their banner the pagan symbol of the broken cross, with Christianity.

    Hitler and the Nazis weren’t Christians, any more than his fellow mass murderer the Marxist Stalin was, nor indeed was Stalin’s fellow Marxist, Mao Tse Tung (nor Pol Pot) a Buddhist.

    I know atheists always like to pin the blame for atrocities committed by fellow atheists on religion but historical facts prove otherwise.

  • Steve

    This exact same video could have been made about whack job christians or Israeli’s or white supremacisits

    So lets just accept it for what it is a piece of propaganda designed to instill hate for moslems and ignore it as such

  • Steve

    Harry

    Those werent atheists they just werent deists

    they were their own religion and as all religions are want to do they used violence to advance their dogma

  • Harry Flashman

    Steve, I take people as they define themselves, the Nazis and the Communists, the world’s biggest mass murderers by a long chalk, defined themselves as either anti-Christian or positively atheistic.

    You can delude yourself that in fact they were members of some sort of religion, that is your prerogative, the historical fact however is that atheists were responsible for the most horrific genocides in history, bar none.

    As regards your other point, many pieces of propaganda have been made about whack job Christians and Israelis but I somehow doubt that anyone would say that they were “abuses” of the media.

    I ask the same question again; why do so many people object only when it is the absurdities of Islam that are catalogued?

    Why do militant secularists give Islam such an easy ride?

  • As someone who loves and cherishes my many Muslim friends and family members I assure you that the best thing that could happen to Islam is for it to be subject to exactly the same sort of scrutiny that any other institution in the modern world has to undergo.

    Harry

    Harry I totally agree with you on the above.
    One of the problems with the Qu’ran it is not published in the majority of the languages spoken by the worlds muslims and if it is it is in a poor translation. So most muslims have never read it in its original and as you wrote ‘If you are confident and secure in your religious beliefs then you can have no objection to strong vigorous criticism,’

    It is a sad fact that millions of muslims know very little about their faith beyond it being traditional. If one brings up the question of translations of the Qur’an with islamic scholars and the aforementioned fact that even the call to pray is in Arabic and thus is not understood in Turkey and the far east etc, the doors slam shut very quickly. For as used to be the way with the Catholic church these ‘experts’ power and influence entails keeping the masses in ignorance about what is actually in the Qur’an.

    Runcies point is without Christianity the pogroms and camps that the Jews faced would have been unlikely, for example until recent times [due to Isael] muslims did not persecute jews as they were shown in a good light in the Qu’ran.

    Whereas in Christian societies persecuting became almost traditional due to the Jews being blamed for the death of Jesus. [which in itself is interesting as Jesus was a jew] Thus when hitler came along he was building on a half built house of prejudice

    All the best

    Mick

  • Jo

    I honestly don’t think the absurdities of Islam are any less absurd than those of Christianity. I say this as one who had a prawn open sandwich at lunch. 🙂

    Nor is my problem with demonstrating these absurdities born of either Dhimmism (sic) or fear.

    It is simply a matter of highlighting the inherent difficulties with members of one major world denomination trying to project the belief that all the members of another denomination would if they had the opportunity, fly planes into skyscrapers.

  • Harry Flashman

    I take your point, there is no doubt that much of the vile anti-semitism which exists in the Muslim world today can trace its disgusting roots back to European Christians, but given that we in “The West” can clearly now see the sheer repulsiveness of our ancestors’ bigotry it is surely our duty to point out to people, in shall we say less enlightened societies, the folly of repeating our grave mistakes.

    Of all the people in the world history demands that we in western Europe should be to the fore in condemning religious intolerance wherever it rears its nasty head, particularly if once again it is the Jews of all people who are bearing the brunt of this ugliness.

    We do Muslims and the Muslim world no favours by making excuses for them, in the same we in Europe had to have our noses shoved into the depravities of the death camps before we finally learned the simple lesson of tolerance, surely it is no sin to point out to our Muslim friends the error of repeating our awful mistakes?

  • Steve

    Harry
    If we Judge any religion by its fundamentalist whackjobs then none will come out looking any better than ISLAM did in this video

    What about american christians shooting and bombing abortion clinics and federal buildings?

    My second point is tha Nazism became the religion, marxism became the religion, not that they belonged to one of the recorded accepted sects of organised religion

  • Charles in Texas

    “…trying to project the belief that all the members of another denomination would if they had the opportunity, fly planes into skyscrapers.”

    But when 10% of said religion cheer when said planes ARE flown into buildings, we stick our heads in the sand at our own peril.

    “surely it is no sin to point out to our Muslim friends the error of repeating our awful mistakes?”

    Novel approach Harry. I like it!

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Mick Hall: “Runcies point is without Christianity the pogroms and camps that the Jews faced would have been unlikely, for example until recent times [due to Isael] muslims did not persecute jews as they were shown in a good light in the Qu’ran.”

    The Koran is, at best, ambivalent regarding Jews, calling them “People of the book” in some parts and justifying their slaughter in others, such as the destruction of the Jewish tribe of Quraiza. The Koran contain many hostile denunciations of Jews, as a matter of fact.

    Other little gems from the Prophet…

    Koran-Sura 5:51: O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them
    for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the
    unjust people.

    5.82 : Certainly you will find the most violent of people in enmity for those who believe (to be) the Jews and those who are polytheists, and
    you will certainly find the nearest in friendship to those who believe (to be) those who say: We are Christians; this is because there are priests and
    monks among them and because they do not behave proudly.

    Surah 9.27: Fight against such as those to whom the Scriptures were given [Jews and Christians]…until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued.

    Further reading

    http://www.andrewbostom.org/content/view/25/41/

  • Charles in Texas

    I think you are simply generalizing, what should the japanese have done when well over 50% of americans[US[] cheered when your nation dropped N bombs on two Japanese cities and killed tens of thousands of women and children, blanket all americans as murdering lunatics. Or should they have attempted to get these things into proportion as indeed they did, and learn from the mistakes of the past.

    Of course it is foolish to put our heads in the sand when it comes to the bin Ladens of this world, but to categorize all muslims as terrorists is just plain daft. It also gives Laden a status he does not deserve.

  • Dread

    Sorry Im not going to go there as I have already said all religions imo are a curse, but anti Semitism was uncommon in the islamic world until modern times. Of course that did not mean it was totally absent, but it was not to the fore as it was in the Christian world.

  • Jo

    “it is surely our duty to point out to people, in shall we say less enlightened societies, the folly of repeating our grave mistakes.”

    Yes, ok. But lets also try to drown out the voices claiming “themmuns” are all the same.

    Chas

    The prospect of millions of Muslims flying planes in suicide missions isn’t in my nightmares nor in those of anyone but the paranoid and insane.

    Nuclear-armed born-again Christians stirring up anti-Islamic hatred and inciting mass murder with the intent of provoking Armageddon is a political reality.

  • Charles in Texas

    ” but to categorize all muslims as terrorists is just plain daft. ”

    I never said they were. I said that 10% cheered it. In a religion of 1 billion, that means 100 million are really pissed. That’s a problem.

    A recent Poll put the number at 7%, but interestingly, none gave religion as a reason for their feelings. Perhaps this film blaming the Koran as the source of the problem is wide of the mark, and ignoring secular reasons for (7%) muslim hatred of the west.

  • Harry Flashman

    *If we Judge any religion by its fundamentalist whackjobs then none will come out looking any better than ISLAM did in this video*

    I entirely agree, my point is that Christian “whackjobs” have been the target of critical analysis, abuse, lampooning and indeed in several case police investigations for decades now and other Christians have accepted it as part and parcel of living in a free society and indeed in many cases they have welcomed it.

    My point is so utterly simple that I can’t understand why you have difficulty grasping it; why should Islam not be subject to exactly the same sort of scrutiny?

    Mark’s use of the term “abuse of new media” in relation to this short film seems to imply that Islam should be exempt from such critical analysis, I fail to see why, perhaps you can enlighten me.

    By the way you can count the number of abortion clinic and federal building bombings in the past century on the fingers of one hand, can you really equate them with the history of Islamist inspired terrorism in recent years?

  • Charles in Texas

    Jo, Let your heart not be troubled. When Armageddon comes, we’ll try to keep the noise down.

    On the other hand, New york, Madrid, Bali, London, etc, did exceed a safe decible level.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Mick Hall: “Sorry Im not going to go there as I have already said all religions imo are a curse, but anti Semitism was uncommon in the islamic world until modern times.”

    What you said was that the Koran portrayed Jews in a good light, which it doesn’t.

    Likewise, I don’t think the fact that there weren’t Nazi-style camps and crematoria in Saudi Arabia at the time of the the Prophet necessarily absolves them of anti-Semitism, particularly given the contents of the Koran and other canonical documents.

  • Mayoman

    Harry: isn’t the point that this was not a reasoned analysis of the state of one of the worlds largest religions, but a clear attempt to cobble the nastiest pieces together to portray the whole religion, and anyone who follows that religion, as a blood-lusting, power-mad lunatic! Therein lies the abuse.

    I know what a nutjob Paisley was/is, but I doubt every presbyterian supported and armed the UVF!! Would you not object if such a perception were prompted? Or would you accept it is a fair and reasoned criticism of the religion and all followers of the Free Ps? After all, a certain proprtion would fill that niche. Is there an obvious parallel with leading clerics and the IRA? Maybe, but I can’t think of one at the moment.

    The same furore would, I expect, erupt if any of the religions were portrayed like this. Charles from Texas point was intersting in that religion is not a driver of the hate of the west. Much more likely to be the perceived and actual imperial ambitions that are currently the hallmark of the US-led alliance. Yet again, religion is just the convenient vehicle through which the hatred can be channelled.

  • Jo

    And the crying of the hundreds of thousands who died in Iraq and Afghanistan was but a whisper, insofar as US TV was concerned.

    Is Texas planning TV coverage of the deaths of the many Texans executed every year?

    I’d doubt it, it might catch on. And there’s no need for such Reality TV when you have so much killing of the “Towelheads” to focus on.

  • BfB

    The facts are legion. You apologists are clearly in a suspended reality delusion.

    ‘Sudan. 1.3 million Christians have been killed in the last few years. In what is becoming known as the Sudan Genocide, Islamic militias with full support from the Islamic-dominated government of Sudan are massacring Christians in villages, as well as certain refugee camps. The Sudan Genocide is the first genocide of this century and its perpetrators are Muslim.’

  • Dread and Texas charles,

    If US citizens were asked who were the people who lived in europe, I doubt very many would reply Christians, they would say they were Germans, English, Irish French and so on.

    However if they were asked to describe who were the people who lived in the middle east they would likely reply muslims and Israelis. For most of you there is no difference between an Iranian, Turk or an Iraqi whereas in reality there are huge differences culturally and religiously.

    For me sadly that is how many people from the USA blanket muslims, you rarely say the guy is Egyptian or Turkish, Syrian, or Iranian, far to many of you just rage on about muslims as if unlike those of us in the west simply they define themselves by their religion.[they do not]

    The majority of those who live in the middle east no more attend the mosque on a regular bases than do people who were born into the Christians faith go to church. Apart from the major events in ones life like funerals weddings etc the vast majority of muslims no more think about religion than I do, which is hardly at all.

    Believe it or not most muslims spend their daily lives doing things that even lads from the USA would recognize; and the only reason they now dislike the USA is because of that countries foreign policy. In the old days they took the same attitude to the English, such behavior is perfectly logical as through their empire and government the english shit upon them. Whilst today they believe it is the USA, are they wrong? Put your foreign policy right and this muslim thing that you all seem to fear so much will be no more.

  • Charles in Texas

    “Is Texas planning TV coverage of the deaths of the many Texans executed every year?”

    Not to my knowledge Jo. We just stick a needle in their arm, very boring stuff. Al Queda does a much flashier job by setting office workers on fire with airplane petrol and having them jump 90 stories to their deaths.

  • Charles in Texas

    Mick Hall,

    It might surprise you that I have Muslim friends and have attended a service in a mosque. However, they all consider their first mark of identification as Muslim. Your admonition of most Americans not being able to find Syria on a map is unfortunately true, but I would say the same of the average man on the street in Belfast or London.

    Your Servant Sir

  • BfB

    Mick Hall

    Your an anti-American fool, with not a wit of understanding about what the USA is about. You seem to be unaware of the tremendous amount of historical, factual, data about Islamic murder. To deny factual evidence, point blank, and all your moral equivalence crap, is a comical, clown car experience.

  • Charles in Texas

    Don’t look now, but Fitna has been withdrawn due to threats! Those pesky Anglicans are at it again.

  • Harry Flashman

    *The majority of those who live in the middle east no more attend the mosque on a regular bases than do people who were born into the Christians faith go to church. Apart from the major events in ones life like funerals weddings etc the vast majority of muslims no more think about religion than I do, which is hardly at all.*

    You’re being a bit disingenuous there Mick, the Muslim world would indeed be a better place if the majority of Muslims treated their religions as the majority of Christians in the west do; good for weddings and funerals etc but little else, alas this is far from the case.

    At least half of the Muslims I know pray five times a day, for the entire month of Ramadhan about 98% fast for their faith. Don’t get me wrong, I am not alleging that they are all throat slicing fanatics, absolutely not but to pretend that Islam is a sort of a la carte, take it or leave it sort of thing for most Muslims is totally incorrect.

    Islam for many if not most Muslims is indeed their primary identifier, not surprising really when for most Muslims their country of origin is probably a construct of colonial administrators less than a century old whereas Islam is regarded as timeless.

  • Ulsters my homeland

    I was reading a very interesting link about Isaac and Ishmael, here’s some snippets.

    Bible = Genesis 17:18,19 “And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee! And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shall call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him”.

    Koran = 19:54 “Also mention in the Book [the story of] Ishmael: He was [strictly] true to what he promised, and he was a messenger [and] a prophet”.

    Bible = Genesis 16:12 “And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man’s hand against him”.

    The Bible called Ishmael a wild man; the Koran called him messenger and a prophet.

    “For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid [Ishmael], the other by a freewoman [Isaac]. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh [Ishmael]; but he of the freewoman was by promise [Isaac]. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which genders to bondage, which is Hagar [Ishmael-Mohammed], for this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answers to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all [Isaac-Christ]… Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise [Bible-Christianity]. But as then he that was born after the flesh [Koran-Islam] persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.” [b](Galatians 4:22-29) [/b]

    Christians and Moslems do not simply have two different fathers (Isaac and Ishmael) and two different books (Bible-Koran), but they have two completely different spirits: one brings freedom, the other brings bondage; one leads to life, the other leads to death.

    In the Bible we see that God wants us to make the choice (freedom). “I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse; therefore choose life, that you and your descendants may live” (Deuteronomy 30:19). But according to the Koran, Allah chooses the way for us (bondage). “This day I have perfected your religion for you and completed my favour unto you, and have chosen for you as your religion Islam” (Sure 5:3).

    Christianity has spread because Christ died to His own desires and in the end gave His life for us. Islam, on the other hand, has spread because Mohammed lived for his own desires and killed everyone who tried to stand in his way. We can see this very clearly in our generation, where countries are opening the door for the gospel of Jesus Christ. With the establishment of democracies, nations have the freedom to choose life or death, Bible or Koran, because God set before us life and death, blessing and curse (Deuteronomy 30:19). And we have to make our own choice, even if it is the wrong choice; this is freedom. But in every nation where the law of Islam rules or even when most of the nation’s people are Moslems, we see that there is no democracy, no human rights, no freedom to choose their own religion, because they say God has “perfected their religion for them, and ha[s] chosen for them their religion Islam” (Sure 5:3). A choice was made for them before they were born; this is slavery.

  • Mark McGregor

    I’m glad the absence of a strong narrative line allowed the discussion on this piece to develop.

    I have strong feelings about the video but wouldn’t be for censoring it as it reveals much about mindsets in place, developing and being promoted.

    My first concern is about the very base manipulation of facts and images. Taking isolated quotes, linking them to despicable acts and then using them to damn a huge number of people is contemptible.

    My bigger concern is the demonstration that for many the ‘War on Terror’ is actually a war on Islam. A sectarian sham, where the lives of many millions are seen as worthless and their persecution justified based on the actions of a tiny minority. The mindset that allows Palestine to rot, Iraq to descend into squalor and fear and primes people for further acts of violence like a potential invasion of Iraq.

    It dehumanises every Muslim, makes each and every one an enemy to be dealt with. Those buying into this, all as enemy, argument are buying into some very dangerous philosophy.

    I see each and every person that sees this partial and manipulated piece of worth as potentially more dangerous than anything supposedly being opposed. For they would surely cheerlead us into a blood bath of massive proportions.

    Everything about the piece disgusts me and I’m horrified that so many here thought it of any value. Its a call to holocaust and bloody shameful.

    Though I’m glad it exists because it exposes the dark heart lurking behind certain projects.

  • Charles in Texas

    Ah yes. It’s not them, it’s us!

    Bollocks!

  • Mark McGregor

    Charles,

    Thats my concern. Those that make it ‘them’ and ‘us’ and where that takes everyone.

    As you’ve bought into it, do you need the end of every single ‘Islamist’ or just the end of Islam for victory?

  • Charles in Texas

    Mark,

    I have no problem with the religion of Islam or those who practice it. I have my doubts as to whether Islam is compatible with western democracy, but the jury is still out.

    Victory for me would be the end of those Islamists groups whose primary aim is to kill innocent civilians to further political aims. Such groups are Hamas, Hezb’allah, and of course, Al-Qaeda.

    Simple really (in theory, however very difficult in practice!)

  • Jenny

    How is utilizing the media that Islamacists, themselves create and put out there to document their oppressive, corrupt behaviors in any way abusive?

    Wilders only allowed their own actions and words to speak for themselves. It’s not his fault that they do so effectively. As an American who is of half Irish ancestry (half indigenous, Wampanoag), I’m more than well aware that Ireland had an alliance of sorts with the Nazis. It’s much harder to make excuses for that sort of thing when you have the likes of Gerry Adams dallying with extremists in Columbia and elsewhere, Bertie Ahern making bad jokes about trading human beings like chattel, and the overall combination of fascism, racism and bigotry that is widespread in Ireland. It kind of shows their might have been more than smoke in the stereotypes of the Irish over the centuries.

  • Moochin Photoman

    Bit more info about the origins of the film and the storm it’s kicked of in Jakarta

  • Moochin Photoman

    With a bit more patience i would have linkedthisaswell!

  • BfB

    I love this guy. Listen to the end….