Hibernians boycott Ohio parade…

So says Pub philosopher, primarily because the local organisers ignored the local Catholic bishop’s plea to have it today. In Savannah, Georgia, they are more obedient, and are celebrating Paddy’s Day today instead. Seems Mark’s not the only one who’s irked by church law. It’s an interesting question for Republicans. Who should set ‘national’ holidays: the church or the respective civil bodies?

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  • overehere

    Is this not the same as the 12th falling on a Sunday and if you come back with the not a “national” holiday I believe there would be plenty here who woudl disagree

  • willowfield

    Why are they having it today, when St Patrick’s Day is tomorrow?

  • George

    Willowfield,
    St. Patrick’s day is on Monday, not tomorrow. I assume the reason the Catholic Church don’t want it on the actual Monday is because it would happen during Holy Week.

  • Rory

    “It’s an interesting question for Republicans. Who should set ‘national’ holidays: the church or the respective civil bodies?

    I don’t really see that there is any problem, Mick. We have national holidays and Church high days and holy days. The government will set the dates for national holidays and the Church will set the dates (indeed these dates are already long established by the Church) of high days and holy days.

    The state is under no obligation to aid the celebration of Church holy days although custom and practice in most of Europe including England and Ireland has formerly facilitated the Church in this regard. Hardly surprising given the state control of religion since Henry VIII. Sunday closing, Easter, Whitsun and Christmas holidays reflect this facilitation although corporate greed (“convenience shopping”) is steadily eroding this tradition.

    Where, as on St. Patrick’s Day, the celebrations of Church and state celebration are focused on the same thing there may be concession by either side, as there is to be in New York or not as in Ohio.

    Incidentally what reason have the organisers of the Ohio parade given for their reluctance to hold the secular celebration on the 17th. If the Church can move to accomodate New York can not Ohio simply stick to satisfy its citizenry?

    In any case the problem of St Patrick’s Day (17th March) occurring during Holy Week only arises every 68 years so why all the fuss?

  • Willowfield – there seems to be some confusion about this. The bishops in the US say it should be moved to the 14th but some people in Ireland seem to reckon the 15th is the alternative day.

    I don’t know if it’s just poor communication from the Vatican or what.

  • willowfield

    George

    St. Patrick’s day is on Monday, not tomorrow.

    No: it’s been moved to Saturday because it clashes with Holy Week. So why is Ohio having their parade today (Friday)?

  • If I heard right, our FM, Ian Paisley, had a St Patrick’s Day breakfast this morning with a group of children from Holy Cross and Wheatfield at the La Mon Hotel. He’s probably delivered his ‘sermon’ on the life of St Patrick by now.

  • willowfield

    Steve

    Maybe the Infallible One has decreed that you can’t have Paddy’s Day on Monday, but left it up to the local hierarchies to decide when to have it instead?

    The AMericans have said Friday, but the Irish have said Saturday?

  • cut the bull

    It has created a lot of confusion. It doesn’t feel like St Patricks day at all, I was over at the Variety Market and not many people wearing shamrock.

    When I saw a man with shamrock in his lapel, not relaising that the Catholic church had moved the date. I thought what is this fella at wearing shamrock three days early.

  • willowfield

    Are you in America?

  • cut the bull

    No I’m in Belfast and yes I know its supposed to be on Saturday here but I saw a few people today in the Variety market with their shamrock on.

    A few of them are involved in community work and Peter Lavery the lotto winner was there also. I wonder if there may be some Americans investors in town.

    That could possibly why some people are wearing shamrock today.

  • feismother

    I don’t really see what’s the problem. The church says that Holy Week takes precedence over a saint’s day so they will celebrate it tomorrow. It’s not even (for those for whom it matters) a Holyday of Obligation as it usually is. Monday still remains the secular holiday. Of course it’s all the excuse some people need to celebrate three days running.

    They’ve been selling shamrock all week. I haven’t worn it for years and stay well away from any sort of St Patrick’s Day celebration.

    [Bah humbug]

  • DM

    I’m very confused by all of this. Can anyone explain to me which denominations observe Holy Week and as a result are shifting the date this year? I think I may just hedge my bets and celebrate it tomorrow, and again on Monday.

  • Here in New York, the site of the largest St. Patrick’s Day celebration in the world, the Cardinal Archbishop will celebrate the liturgical St. Patrick’s Day today and will celebrate the civic St. Patrick’s Day on Monday when the parade will march up Fifth Avenue as usual. The Cardinal will, as is the custom, review the parade from the steps of St. Patrick’s Cathedral and many dignitaries will step out of the parade to greet him — as is the custom.

    For the record, BTW, the NYC parade is NOT in honor of St. Patrick as the patron saint of Ireland but of St. Patrick as the patron saint of the Archdiocese of New York. And, due to the sheer size of the NYC parade, St. Patrick’s day celebrations take place throughout most of March. After all, there are only so many bagpipe bands to go around. Case in point, the Nassau County parade was on March 2.

    The feast day of St. Joseph, traditionally a day for Italian Americans to celebrate their heritage(though much more quietly than the boisterous Irish) is also affected by the liturgical celebration of Holy Week.

    As I see it, the liturgical celebration is subject to the usual Church practices, but the civic celebration is not the business of the bishops — though they are certainly free to abstain from them if they so choose. Tempest in a teapot. I’m very much afraid some of our bishops think they are somewhat more important than they really are.

    Before moving to Long Island, I lived in the Diocese of Brooklyn but worked in the Archdiocese which means I was dispensed from the Lenten fast and abstinence while I was at work but obliged when I was at home. What fertile ground for an overscrupulous conscience!!

  • willowfield

    Is the Irish gay group still banned from the parade?

  • Instead of celebrating St. Patrick’s Day on both days, some Irish Americans here on LI started their celebrations on March 2 and intend to continue until the last of the local parades on March 30 or so. I understand those who are Catholic will tone down during Holy Week, especially for Holy Thursday-Easter Sunday, but . . . . .

    It’s not really a new problem for them.

  • [i]Is the Irish gay group still banned from the parade?[/i]

    Yes, and rightly so since the Parade honors St. Patrick as the patron saint of the New York Archdiocese and celebrates the contributions made to the City by Catholics of all ethnic backgrounds.

    It’s a [b]Catholic[/b], not an Irish, celebration.

  • Henry94

    St Patrick’s Day is on 15 March this year. It is always moved on the rare occasions when it clashes with Holy Week If the state celebrate it on 17 March they are celebrating on the wrong day which of course they are free to do.

    But it is hardly secular to celebrate a Saint two days late. If you want to be secular you shouldn’t celebrate Saints at all.

  • Peadar O’Donnell

    ‘Yes, and rightly so since the Parade honors St. Patrick as the patron saint of the New York Archdiocese and celebrates the contributions made to the City by Catholics of all ethnic backgrounds.

    It’s a Catholic, not an Irish, celebration.’

    If so could they stop flying our national flag at the event and fly something else (Flag of white South Africa maybe or the Confederacy.)

    Anyway weren’t some of the contributing New York catholics gay? Many of the clergy were.

    And doesn’t St Patrick pre-date the whole silly Catholic-Protestant split.

  • It’s on different days in Ireland and America because of the relative importance of St Joseph and St Patrick. St Joseph’s Day is the 19th and St Patrick the 17th normally. In Ireland St Patrick’s is a more important day as it is a holyday of obligation, which St Joseph isn’t. In most countries St Joseph is more important and therefore is moved to the day closest to the actual date which means Saturday 15th. So in Ireland today is actually St Joseph’s Day.

    The State can celebrate whatever it likes but Monday isn’t St Patrick’s Day this year. And in any event, the State has always played a double game by linking holidays to feasts without actually marking them – so we have (in theRepblic) the October bank holiday (instead of 1 November All Saints like much of Europe), the June holiday (instead of Pentecost) and the August holiday (instead of The Assumption).

    As regards parades – the civil ones do it when they want and in much of north america they’re held the weekend before St Patrick’s Day. The one’s organised by religious groups, like the Hibernians are different and are more likely to go with the Church.

    Every year you get some crazy local politician wanting to fix the date of Easter as if it could be done by legislation.

    Anyone know the year Easter fell on Christmas Day?

  • willowfield

    Smasher Lagru – thanks – useful information.

    Bob McGowan – “It’s a Catholic, not an Irish, celebration” – how come all the paddywhackery, then?

  • McKelvey

    (Peadar O’Donnell) If so could they stop flying our national flag at the event and fly something else (Flag of white South Africa maybe or the Confederacy.)
    —-
    A fair enough point despite the bizarre adding of South Africa and even more bizarre adding of the Confederacy.

  • longlake

    what exactly are we supposed to believe that a ‘saint’ is?

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Willowfield: “Is the Irish gay group still banned from the parade? ”

    Last I had heard, that is the case.

    I would argue its a constitutional issue — the right to freely associate is equally the right to disassociate. As ILGO is not the group organizing the parade, they don’t get a vote on who is or is not in the parade. The court decided that the parade amounts to speech and that the parde’s organizers have the right to exclude the group.

  • SlugFest

    Bob,

    “It’s a Catholic, not an Irish, celebration.”

    Per the official site of the NYC parade (http://nyc-st-patrick-day-parade.org/default.aspx), here’s guidelines # 2 and 4 for all parade participants:
    2. All units must have two (2) flags. Irish & American flags or no flags at all. NO EXCEPTIONS!! An American flag on the right and an Irish flag on the left.
    4. The only banners allowed are ones identifying the unit or “England Get Out of Ireland”. Only one banner for each unit. NO EXCEPTIONS!!

    Then there’s this interesting tidbit: the Savannah parade (I believe the 2nd or 3rd largest in the states) was actually started by, dare I say it, Prods!

    – 1812: Hibernian Society of Savannah formed by 13 Irish Protestants to help needy Irish immigrants.

    – March 17, 1813: First private observance of St. Patrick’s Day in Savannah by the Hibernians.

    – March 17, 1824: First public procession [that would be parade, Bob] by the Hibernian Society [you know, the Prods].

    The saddest part of the bigoted attitude of NY’s SP parade decision makers is that they fail to recognize the true history of that parade – that it began as an impromptu protest by Irish immigrants because they weren’t allowed to have an official parade. And now, all this time later, they decide to exclude certain Irish Americans because of their sexual orientation. And to hide behind the cloak of Catholicism’s teachings is all the more despicable – the US was founded on separation of church and state. While that doesn’t always happen in practice (look at our current president), it is still something we should, at the absolute very least, aspire to.

  • dub

    paddy’s day is Ireland’s national day and it is on 17th march, period.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    SlugFest: “The saddest part of the bigoted attitude of NY’s SP parade decision makers is that they fail to recognize the true history of that parade – that it began as an impromptu protest by Irish immigrants because they weren’t allowed to have an official parade. And now, all this time later, they decide to exclude certain Irish Americans because of their sexual orientation. And to hide behind the cloak of Catholicism’s teachings is all the more despicable – the US was founded on separation of church and state. While that doesn’t always happen in practice (look at our current president), it is still something we should, at the absolute very least, aspire to. ”

    A couple of points — the seperation of church and state does not mean the subordination of the church by the state, at least not yet. Likewise, like the proverbial devil, almost all politicians find they can quote Scripture when it suits their purpose.

    As for excluding ILGO, regardless of whether the stated reason is religious or not, there is still the first amendment issue of free association. The right to freely associate is also the right to not associate.

    Is short, life isn’t fair. Anyone who tells you differently probably is selling something.

  • SlugFest

    Dread,

    I accept your well-made points. i just find the whole NY AOH crowd overbearing and tedious.

    My final point on gays not being allowed in the nyc parade was more of an aside (though I do find it very unseemly) — the main point of my post was to dispute Bob McGowan’s claim that it’s a Catholic, not an Irish, thing. As the courts have upheld, the NYC parade commission can indeed exclude groups of various persuasions. However, no particular group can claim ownership to St. Paddy’s day.

  • AntiChrist

    Paisley, naturally enough when you think about it, reveres Patrick, rather than St. Patrick.

    If you honour a saint, then the Catholic Church are going to have a say on the feast day, on the understandable basis that they invented sainthood.

    Paddy’s day is more than a shorthand, it’s the green version of Happy Holidays.

    It will be cold or wet, and on Orangeman’s Day the sun will shine, proving that there is a God in Heaven, and his dog is named Luther.

  • [i]My final point on gays not being allowed in the nyc parade was more of an aside (though I do find it very unseemly)—the main point of my post was to dispute Bob McGowan’s claim that it’s a Catholic, not an Irish, thing. As the courts have upheld, the NYC parade commission can indeed exclude groups of various persuasions. However, no particular group can claim ownership to St. Paddy’s day.[/i]

    Sorry, Dread, but I’m afraid that you didn’t research more thoroughly. The NYC parade is sponsored by the AOH which holds the permit for the parade as you. Now, the rules of the AOH here in the USA are quite specific:

    [i][b]Membership in the Ancient Order of Hibernians, Inc. is confined to men 16 years and older who are practicing Roman Catholics of Irish birth or descent and who are citizens of United States of America or who have declared their intentions to become citizens of the United States of America.[/b][/i]

    So, the AOH itself is a Catholic organization. And, the parade is in honor of St. Patrick as the patron saint of the Archdiocese of New York and pauses at St. Patrick’s Cathedral to recognize the Cardinal Archbishop of New York.

    And, over the years, Catholic institutions of the NY Archdiocese have been and are widely represented, not only by their students or whatever of Irish Catholic background but also by students or whatever of any Catholic background. When I went to a Catholic high school in the Archdiocese, the whole school marched, including those of Italian, or German, or Polish, or African, or Chinese, or Hispanic, or whatever background. And the same is true of all the Catholic institutions that marched.

    BTW, the ILGO was not banned because they are gay but because they insisted on publicly proclaiming that a gay lifestyle was/is morally OK, a position which is directly contrary to the teachings of the Catholic Church. Now, you may certainly think that the Church should revisit and revise its teaching in this instance — and I might well agree with you — BUT the ILGO is publicly holding an opinion that is directly contrary to the Church’s teachings as things now stand.

    Sorry, Dread, the NYC St Patrick’s Day Parade is a [b]Catholic[/b] celebration first and an Irish celebration secondly.

  • Ooops! Got the wrong poster. Sorry, Dread, but the post should have been addressed to Slugfest.

    Mea culpa, etc.

  • BTW, I see Slugfest is claiming some historical authenticity for the Savannah St. Patrick’s Day Parade and it’s certainly well-earned,

    BUT, the St. Patrick’s Parade has been an annual event in NYC since 1765 and they haven’t broken the string yet.

    There is, however, one dubious entry into the string. In 1888, NYC was struck by a blizzard a few days before March 17. BUT, the AOH has determined that the single, solitary horseman who rode the parade route on March 17 to tell the folk there would be no one following him was enough to preserve the string unbroken.

    Hmmmm . . . . .

  • Rory

    “Anyone know the year Easter fell on Christmas Day?

    I’m afraid that I don’t, Smasher. My father though used to tease us by asking when Christmas Day fell on Easter Monday. He would ask us children that same question every Christmas for many years and infuriatingly would smile enigmatically and refuse to answer, simply shaking his head and repeating the question, “Ah hah, when did Christmas Day fall on Easter Monday? Do you know the answer to that now?” We did not and it was not until I was quite grown that he revealed the answer.

    Apparently a steeplechaser named Christmas Day took part in the Grand National at Fairyhouse held on an Easter Monday as is traditional and came a cropper on the fences. I can’t tell you in which year though. I can’t even be sure that he was correct but horse-racing was his passion. I will now try and acess the records to see if the tale holds water.

  • BfB

    The St. Patrick’s Day custom came to America in 1737. That was the first year St. Patrick’s Day was publicly celebrated in this country, in Boston. The heathens over here can celebrate Paddys day any time they want. Catholics follow the dictates of the Church. BTW, in Boston Evacuation Day falls on the same day, and city workers (politicians) have the day off, so it’s a pahty no matter what..

  • BfB

    The first recorded celebration of St. Patrick’s Day in the American Colonies was in Boston in 1737, and the first St. Patrick’s Day celebration in New York City was held at the Crown and Thistle Tavern in 1756. You New York mucs never give it a rest, do you… Fair play to the Giants, f**k the Yankees.