“A new campaign for reunification might sound great at an árd fheis, but..”

In the Irish Examiner, Fergus Finlay makes a couple of good points, firstly relating to “The price of peace”

Actually, the best possibility of arriving at Irish unity is if we let it happen by chance. The central dynamic of the peace process was to arrive at a point where those who were at the heart of the problem were transplanted, eventually, into becoming the heart of the solution.

And on the feasibility, or otherwise, of Adams’ “high-powered taskforce” driving forward a “road-map to Irish unity”

IN THE years ahead, a stable and prosperous Northern Ireland could be electing governments with a very clear mandate to work well with the government of the dynamic economy down here. We could well find that both governments, for example, are taking positions in Europe that are at odds with the positions adopted by Westminster. And little by little, the things that unite us could start coming into focus, while the things that divide us fade into distant memory.

But just suppose unity across the island was to come about that way. Do you know what it would be called? It would be called unity by consent — an agreement to run our affairs together in the best interests of all of us.

The political parties of this part of the island signed up to that principle an awful long time ago and Sinn Féin eventually, in their signing of various agreements and their taking of office in the Northern Ireland Executive, signed up to it, too. A bit late, but then, as they say, better late than never.

I’ve no idea whether unity by consent will happen in my lifetime (and like most people, I suspect, I’m not too bothered). But I do know that it’s the only kind of unity that will ever work. A new campaign for reunification might sound great at an árd fheis, but there’s a different game in town. I wonder do Sinn Féin get it?

As Michael Longley said, “peace is the absence of war: the opposite of war is custom, customs, and civilization.”

, , ,

  • Prince Eoghan

    >>Could you also advise why partitioning the British Isles is OK but not Ireland?<< A simply incredible statement. however in the context of denial of British colonization, not really. The island of Britain is made up of two sovereign nations, and one principality of the British crown. These two nations merged, and that can easily be undone. Whereas an island that but for the plantations and colonization would have a fairly homogeneous settled people. With the onset of early mass media, ie the printing press, and better roads and communication would have sorted out their status as a nation, and sought representation at the then UN of the day, the Vatican.

  • Reader

    Prince Eoghan: but for the plantations and colonization
    Too late to do anything about that now. You are faced with the people and identities that exist here – right now. You surely don’t want to proceed as though unionists don’t exist?

  • Congal Claen

    Hi Oak Grove,

    “you claimed you were a proud irishman, but it seems you are a proud norn irishman. reading between the lines it seems you have no wish to embrace your southern counterpart.”

    Maybe I’m not explaining this well. I am a proud Irishman. However, I object to the interchange of Gaelic and Irish by nationalists. As if anyone who isn’t Gaelic can’t be Irish or “true” or “native” Irish. Ireland’s history is a lot more complicated than that. Then there is the incredulity that anyone can be Irish and British. Irish nationalists have rejected their British heritage. A heritage that goes back much further than the existance of say England or the English. Finally, I would welcome back with open arms the RoI back into the UK. Something I mentioned pages ago…

  • Congal Claen

    Hi gaelgannaire,

    “You are confusing your Gaels with your celto-Iberians (Clann Mhíl / Milesians).”

    I was referring to them as how they came to be known. I’m well aware of the “Gaels” Iberian heritage. For example the links to Basque or indeed the ring forts that are so common in and around where I live – very similar to Iberian structures.

    I take it tho’ that you accept that there were p-celtic speaking peoples in Ireland prior to the arrival of the Gaels and that Gaelic is not the be all and end all of Irishness?

  • Congal Claen

    Hi Prince,

    “Whereas an island that but for the plantations and colonization would have a fairly homogeneous settled people.”

    And I’m the one making incredible statements. If you believe what you’ve just written you have a fair amount of reading to do. If you even look at modern day names and trace where they come from you’d know this island has been settled time over number…

  • gaelgannaire

    Congal,

    Yes and no.

    The be all at end all, no, but the largest element yes. It is clear even that all other elements were absorbed into one dominant culture which remained the case until the Irish famine.

    History, linguistics, genetics and mythology converge round this point.

    For example, a direct descendent of Celto-Ibernian Irish is not. Whilst p-Celtic was probably the dominant languge in Ireland prior to the Celto-Iberians there were probably other influences. For example, Irish has some semitic traits which have not as yet been fully explained.

    To your mind that makes Ireland British, others would see it as a Celtic thing, some may see it as a Welsh thing.

    You surely dont marry Brythonic and British entirely?

    I think you weaken your arguements by attempting to overly divorce Gaelic with Irish, they are today distinct to a large extent, but that is a recent development.

    For me Irish means ‘of the Island of Ireland’, but I do describe Irish Gaelic as the Irish language as do the vast majority of people in Ireland, unionists included and as officialy stated in the constition of the Irish Republic, the GFA etc. etc.

    Even Poots would acknowledge this point.

  • gaelgannaire

    “If you even look at modern day names and trace where they come from you’d know this island has been settled time over number… ”

    Would like to here more of this point, name? surnames? place-names?

  • Dewi

    I know it’s boring but the Basque link ain’t at all established. Indeed Basque is described as a “language isolate” with no known fundamental link to any Indo-European language, celtic or otherwise.

    “Irish nationalists have rejected their British heritage. A heritage that goes back much further than the existance of say England or the English”

    I accept that all this stuff was a long time ago as per Reader – But in those ancient times to which you refer Britain (Prydain) was the island of Britain – never Ireland. Linguistic connections suggest a common source to Irish, Scots Gaelic, Welsh, Breton, Cornish and Manx but significant divergence between the Brythonic and Goedelic thousands of years ago.

    Does any of that stuff matter? Dunno. Just nice to keep it all alive.

  • janeymac

    Clongael
    [i]”Don’t think so. By the time that the Catholic Irish headed Stateside English was already decided as the language of everyday use. Gaelic speakers arriving in the US at that time would have to have taken up English like all the other non English speakers. It was a toss up between Spanish and English and things would be different if Spanish had been chosen. But it wasn’t…”[/i]

    I take it you haven’t been to the US then and noticed now, that Spanish is spoken as much as English in some places. In fact, I remember spending a couple of weeks in West New York some years back and very few spoke English. Spanish would be more widely spoken thank English in places like Florida, and California. If Irish emigrants in the 1800s left Ireland without English, chances are that their would be Gaelteach in New York, Boston and anywhere else a lot of Irish settled. Like the people who live in the Gaeltacht here, they would be bilingual!

    [i]”However, most nationalists interchange Irish with Gaelic as if they’re the same thing. I find that annoying. Much in the same way English people interchange English and British.”[/i]

    What is wrong with interchanging Irish and Gaelic? What is the difference between the two? I would not be a Gael myself (paternal ancestory came with Cromwell’s army who then settled in Queen’s County). I cannot recall or heard any of my family (even with a very Anglo surname) being treated/considered any differently/less Irish to someone with an O’ in their name.

    You didn’t answer this part of the question:
    What do you think you would lose in the event of a United Ireland?

  • janeymac

    “20 years ago the nationalist parties 30%+. Now they get 40%+. how is it inconceivable that they’ll be getting 50%+ in another 20 years. Most people alive today will be alive then. the complacency of unionism is astounding.”

    Congol: [i]”Not saying this will definitely be the case – who knows? However, falling Catholic birth rate. Also, if catholic schools turn their backs on Grammar schools the number of catholics going to state schools will increase further. Perhaps there, they’ll see some advantage in remaining part of the UK… “[/i]

    Just prior to the referendum on the GFA, RTE did a couple of documentaries on NI, among them interviews with A Level students from different communities. What struck me at the time was how despondent the Unionist kids were – they just could not wait to get out and were never going to come back to NI again. The nationalist kids came over as being bright and cheerful and saw their future in NI.

  • Greenflag

    ‘Linguistic connections suggest a common source to Irish, Scots Gaelic, Welsh, Breton, Cornish and Manx but significant divergence between the Brythonic and Goedelic thousands of years ago. ‘

    Brythonic was related to Welsh and probably as similar to Welsh as Irish is to Scots Gaelic . Welsh and Irish are estimated to have ‘split ‘ approx 2,500 years ago . We do not know the languages which were spoken in Britain or Ireland prior to 1000 BC . It is assumed that they were ‘pre celtic’ i.e non indo european similar perhaps to Basque . Modern day scholars tend to believe that Pictish was not as previously thought a non indo european language but was in fact similar to the Celtic languages most likely a dialect /related to Brythonic .

  • Prince Eoghan

    Congal Claen

    My @ 07:44 PM was in response to your comment

    >>>>Could you also advise why partitioning the British Isles is OK but not Ireland?< <<< What you have said in no way affects my point. The Irish regardless of how many conquests there had been, would have been fairly homogeneous in the middle ages with no major or minor racial/cultural differences. Hence my reference to the Pope, and appealing for recognition. The Scots in the declaration of Arbroath traveled the same road, 14C. Reader >>Too late to do anything about that now. You are faced with the people and identities that exist here – right now. You surely don’t want to proceed as though unionists don’t exist?<< Certainly not! However, I for one do not support independence for Kosovo, or the north east of Sri Lanka(Tamil Indians), or the north west of Macedonia(Albanians) ect. So why should I accept an artificially created homeland for Prods, it is a nonsense. The Scots and Irish share roughly the same genes, and as more genetic info comes out of England the further west you are in England the more 'Celtic' your gene pool. Thus unless the planters came from eastern England, we are the same people. Culturally there is more that binds than divides. It is simply a case of waiting for the Prodiban to die off. I doubt whether anyone really believes the hard line Paisley type rhetoric any more, but old traditions die hard.

  • Pete Baker

    Off-topic as we are..

    “The Irish regardless of how many conquests there had been, would have been fairly homogeneous in the middle ages with no major or minor racial/cultural differences.”

    Not just homogeneous to an island.

    I blame the Vikings..

  • Pete Baker
  • Prince Eoghan

    Pete

    You do realise that;

    >>the more ‘Celtic’ your gene pool<< Celtic is used as a coverall. Indeed our gene pool is closely related to northwest Spain(Basques) and the northernmost part of the leg of Italy. Well so the studies I've seen suggest. I'm not sure if you are trying to refute the comment of mine you have posted. Were there any differences in the people of Ireland middle ages? The Vikings had been assimilated or chased out and the Normans were getting there.

  • Pete Baker

    “Assimilated or chased out..”

    And once again..

    Why there is no Celtic section in the National Museum of Ireland.

  • Greenflag

    ‘Irish nationalists have rejected their British heritage. A heritage that goes back much further than the existance of say England or the English.’

    So this is why we speak English , have adopted English Common law and Parliamentary procedures -restored Anglo Irish Castles etc etc -watch British soccer and enjoy BBC etc etc ? Irish nationalists have not rejected their British/English heritage . They have rejected the political connection that was imposed by force by the larger island .

    Anyway the Irish have done much better ruling themselves and by so doing have even done Queenie a favour 🙂 and saved HMG billions . Imagine the British taxayer having to fork out a pro rata subvention for the Irish Republic similar to that for Northern Ireland . Wonder where Gordon Brown would dig up the extra 15 billion ?

    ‘ Finally, I would welcome back with open arms the RoI back into the UK.’

    Someday in the distant future when Brittania is a Republic and we Irish have recovered from our long suffering traumatic nationalist syndrome it may be a possibility . I have no objection to a common and shared defence policy with Mother England or very strong cultural and educational connections with our neighbour.

    As for the ‘ancient Gael’ connections etc etc or DNA similarities between the vast majority of people on both islands this is irrelevant in the context of the politics and economics of Europe in the early 21st century . So is all the balderdash about the Cruthin / British Israel / Pure Gaelic ancestry / etc etc etc . Every human being on the planet is descended from a the same few recently hairless homo sapiens that survived and adapted to the climatic changes brought about by an earlier Ice Age .

  • Greenflag

    According to Brian Sykes ‘ Blood of the Isles’ the Basque connection is also shared by a majority of English people and by an even bigger majority of Welsh and Scots . It appears that the Celts and Anglo Saxons imparted their cultures and languages on both islands but otherwise left most of the people of both islands to stew in their original post ice age juices . Romans, Vikings , Normans also contributed to the mix and left us some regional variations .

    ‘Were there any differences in the people of Ireland middle ages? ‘

    Yes there were a lot of differences . Many were political and bloody . O’Neill’s fought O’Donnel’s and McCarthy’s resented O’Briens . It was the usual story which was being replicated in every emerging ‘nation ‘ kingdom ‘ etc in Europe . In Ireland no High King ever accumulated enough power to impose a strong dynasty on the entire island . The closest was Brian Boru who was the Irish equivalent of England’s King Harold . But just as Harald was deposed by the Norman’s so too were the disunited group of Irish tribal chieftains a soft target for the Normans. King Harald might have actually defeated the Normans had he not been betrayed by Tostig Godwinson his sociopathic and treacherous brother. And we all know how Mc Murrough of Leinster ‘invited’ Henry II and his earls on the make into Ireland .

  • Congal Claen

    Hi Gaelgannaire,

    “You surely dont marry Brythonic and British entirely?”

    I’m actually quite similar to yourself – “For me British means of the British Isles”.

    In the same way that it annoys me that sometimes English commentators refer to British teams as English it also annoys me that lots of Nationalists equate Irish with Gaelic and don’t recognise that this is but a part of the story. Nationalist rejection of the term British is a sacrifice of their heritage (in my view). The same applies to Unionists who reject their Irish heritage and think that they’re exclusively British. It’s obvious to me that you know that Ireland’s history and heritage is complicated and the fact that you know, suggests you have a genuine interest in the subject. That, in my experience, is not the norm.

    “Would like to here more of this point, name? surnames? place-names?”

    Ireland itself comes from the Errain, a tribe from SW Britain. Scotland comes from the Scotti, originally of the Errain but settled in Ulster prior to moving to Scotland. Leinster comes from Lagainn, again from SW England. Fermanagh is the “men of the menappii”, originally from Belgium, then N England, then Isle of Man (how it got it’s name) then Ireland. I’ve often wondered if that’s how Manchester got it’s name. Cester means fort – so, for of the Menappii??? However, I haven’t been able to confirm that Man in this instance comes from the Menappii. Perhaps you know?

  • Congal Claen

    Hi Dewi,

    “But in those ancient times to which you refer Britain (Prydain) was the island of Britain – never Ireland.”

    Prydain comes from Priteni. The Priteni were in Ireland as well as Britain. After the Gaels arrived, the Priteni (in Ireland) were known as the Cruthin or the q-celtic form of the p-celtic Priteni.

    “Does any of that stuff matter? Dunno. Just nice to keep it all alive.”

    Agreed.

  • Congal Claen

    Hi JaneyMac,

    “I take it you haven’t been to the US then and noticed now, that Spanish is spoken as much as English in some places.”

    In fact I worked in Dallas for a while and noticed that some of the TV stations were in Spanish. However, there was a decision taken early on in US’s history were English was chosen over Spanish as the working language. This was prior to the arrival of the Catholic Irish so they would had to have conformed. Remember, at this time the Irish were arriving destitute from famine. They would have used whatever language to drag themselves up. Gaelic would not have been the language to do so.

    “What is wrong with interchanging Irish and Gaelic? What is the difference between the two?”

    Gaelic is a subset of Irish. In the same way that Irish is a subset of British. However, some “Gaels” consider themselves more Irish than those who aren’t and claim to be “native” gaels and describe Prods as “planters”. You will also have noticed the term coloniser being used in this very thread. Again to suggest “outsider”.

    “I cannot recall or heard any of my family (even with a very Anglo surname) being treated/considered any differently/less Irish to someone with an O’ in their name.”

    That’s because you are conforming. Try swimming against the tide, even if you don’t agree with it, and see how you get on. May I suggest you say you’re reading a book like say the “Cruthin” and that it’s very interesting.

    “What do you think you would lose in the event of a United Ireland?”

    Identity and economic opportunity. I like the greater security of being part of the UK.

  • Congal Claen

    Hi Prince,

    “The Irish regardless of how many conquests there had been, would have been fairly homogeneous in the middle ages with no major or minor racial/cultural differences.”

    And you have also suggested that the same applies to the British Isles – see below – the “we are the same people” bit. So, the question remains why is partitioning the British Isles Ok but not Ireland?

    “However, I for one do not support independence for Kosovo, or the north east of Sri Lanka(Tamil Indians), or the north west of Macedonia(Albanians) ect. So why should I accept an artificially created homeland for Prods, it is a nonsense. The Scots and Irish share roughly the same genes, and as more genetic info comes out of England the further west you are in England the more ‘Celtic’ your gene pool. Thus unless the planters came from eastern England, we are the same people. Culturally there is more that binds than divides. It is simply a case of waiting for the Prodiban to die off. I doubt whether anyone really believes the hard line Paisley type rhetoric any more, but old traditions die hard.”

    You’d be amazed how much of what you just put I agree with. The way the Serbs have been treated, by us, is a f*cking disgrace.

  • Congal Claen

    Hi Greenflag,

    “Irish nationalists have not rejected their British/English heritage”

    I agree with practically every other thing you mention in your post apart from the above. Ask most nationalists “are you british?” I suspect a rejection as the answer. Whatabout yourself? Do you consider yourself British? I don’t mean politically, in the same way that I describe myself as Irish doesn’t mean politically.

  • Dewi

    “However, there was a decision taken early on in US’s history were English was chosen over Spanish as the working language”

    Away from data and busy but I seem to recall the decision was between English and German…

  • Dewi

    “Prydain comes from Priteni” – other way round surely….

  • Dewi

    “since no one in Britain or Ireland called themselves Celtic before 1700 and the notion that they were so arose from the early 18th century scholar Edward Lhuyd’s coining of the word from his comparative study of Irish, Welsh, Cornish and Breton”

    From Pete’s link.

    Facts are strange things but the linguistic relationships between the “Celtic” languages are factual and clear. “Celtic” as good a word as any to describe the languages and people.

  • Greenflag

    ‘I for one do not support independence for Kosovo,’

    Given the Serbian attempt to exterminate the Kosovars in the recent Balkan conflict the Kosovars are within their rights to want separation from Serbia . I’m happy that the Irish Government has recognised the Kosovar Republic so quickly. The Kosovars speak Albanian and are predominantly Muslim . They have little in common with Serbs neither speaking their language nor sharing their customs !

    ‘why should I accept an artificially created homeland for Prods, it is a nonsense.’

    I agree the present ‘homeland’ was unfairly carved out but if one were fairly carved out by a neutral international agency what would be wrong with that ?

    ‘ The Scots and Irish share roughly the same genes, and as more genetic info comes out of England the further west you are in England the more ‘Celtic’ your gene pool.’

    So what ? We Irish have no desire to unite politcally with Scotland or England or Wales so why should you expect Northern Unionists to be any different as regards uniting with the Republic . They are people too !

    ‘Culturally there is more that binds than divides.’

    Again so what ? there is a common western culture that unites many western countries yet they choose to go their own way politically .

    ‘It is simply a case of waiting for the Prodiban to die off.’

    Now thats what I would call a waste of a life . Imagine believing in a political dream that can only be achieved when enough people of the opposing tribe ‘die ‘ off ? There’s only one word for that – pathethic

  • Congal Claen

    Hi Dewi,

    “Prydain comes from Priteni” – other way round surely….

    Not as far as I’m aware.

    “I seem to recall the decision was between English and German”

    You could be right there…

  • Congal Claen

    Hi Greenflag,

    “Given the Serbian attempt to exterminate the Kosovars in the recent Balkan conflict the Kosovars are within their rights to want separation from Serbia”

    Some would say that was in response to the KLA abducting and murdering Serbs prior to the Serbian response. I was also talking in a wider context that I think we’ve demonised them all throughout the former Yugoslavia. Remember, the Serbs stood with us against Nazi Germany. Still, we’ve enough problems without trying to get into the intricacies of the Balkans…

  • Greenflag

    Ask most nationalists “are you british?” I suspect a rejection as the answer.

    Of course because most irish nationalists would see the question as political . Irish nationalists have a less confused identity than say Scots , English or Welsh . The poor sods up North have five or six combinations of national identity titles to choose from , from Ulster to Norn Irish to Ulster Scot to British to Irish to Crutons and many more no doubt 🙂

    ‘Whatabout yourself? Do you consider yourself British?’

    No I don’t because for me it’s a political question. But I’m aware of and sometimes grateful for some of our english/british heritage . I speak English , read Shakespeare, listen to the BBC and RTE and read both Irish and British newspapers – enjoy British and Irish sports and entertainment etc . On the other hand I’ve no time for monarchy nor the Daily Sun or Mirror or Telegraph .

    ‘in the same way that I describe myself as Irish doesn’t mean politically.’

    You are of course free to describe yourself as whatever you want and whatever you feel comfortable with- regardless of your ‘politics’. Just don’t expect too many others to appreciate the fine distinctions . I don’t . People are mostly not interested for a start and secondly they’d rather watch Manchester Utd v Chelsea on tv!

    I’m more interested in practical solutions to the here and now world and the future .All the gumpf about ancient ancestors, languages , origins , dna similarities and differences while of some interest even to me as an amateur historian -it is when all is said and done -irrelevant as to how this island and the neighbouring one is governed in the 21st century much less how they were governed in the middle ages .

    We’re all worm food in the end anyway . Just make the best use of your short time on the planet and try not to waste too much of it trying to define yourself :)?

  • Dewi

    ““Prydain comes from Priteni” – other way round surely….

    Not as far as I’m aware.”

    What happened was that these Greek and Roman geographic blokes based Priteni on what we called our island – Prydain.

    There you go – I’ll translate when I got a min!

  • Congal Claen

    Hi Greenflag,

    “No I don’t because for me it’s a political question.”

    But, I specifically said I didn’t mean politically. The point is would/could you describe yourself as British in a non poitical way. Not appreciate the heritage but actually describe yourself as British. For most nationalists I’m guessing no.

    “All the gumpf about ancient ancestors, languages , origins , dna similarities and differences while of some interest even to me as an amateur historian -it is when all is said and done -irrelevant as to how this island and the neighbouring one is governed in the 21st century much less how they were governed in the middle ages.”

    The thing is loads of nationalists are nationalists based on a belief that the “Irish” are a completely distinct race from the “British” and have been in Ireland from time immemorial. Hence the “colonizer” and “planter” jibes. It appears you are nationalist for other reasons and I think that fair enough – sort of in the vein of Wolfe Tone say. However, for lots more it’s pure misguided sectarianism.

  • Greenflag

    ‘I think we’ve demonised them all throughout the former Yugoslavia.’

    Yugoslavia was an artificial state concocted out of the ruins of the Austro Hungarian and Ottoman Empires . It could only be held together by Imperial or totalitarian Communist rule .

    Northern Ireland likewise can only be held together by overall British rule from Westminster.
    It could not stand alone i.e independent as a political entity in it’s present format.

    ‘Remember, the Serbs stood with us against Nazi Germany.’

    Eaten bread is soon forgotten . In international politics there are no friends only interests .

    Remember also that it was an irredentist Serb who sparked World War 1 which left tens of millions of europeans dead after word War 1. When the history of the collapse of european civilisation is written circa 2500 AD the cumulative loss of population in both World Wars in 20th century Europe will be seen as having been a major causative factor .

    The Serbs regrettably believed in Slobodan Milosevic’s Greater Serbia . Unfortunately every other nation/ethnic group in the former Yugoslavia did’nt . Even the Montenegrins jumped before the Kosovars .

    Dreaming of past glories will no more serve Serbia in the future than dreams of former one party majority rule will serve Unionists in the present Northern Ireland .

    ‘Still, we’ve enough problems’

    I would think so. I have a nigglin feeling that Paisley’s hasty departure may yet prove to be the undoing of the present Assembly .

  • Congal Claen

    Hi Dewi,

    No need to translate – there’s an English link down the side. Maybe I should’ve spoofed I’m fluent in Welsh – I have Welsh ancestry afterall…

    Anyhow, did you read it? It seems to back what I was saying…

    “Priteni is the source of the Welsh language term Prydain, Britain, which has the same source as the Goidelic term Cruithne used to refer to the early Brythonic speaking inhabitants of Ireland and the north of Scotland”

  • Dewi

    Hi Congal Claen

    English not a translation…..and wrong! IMHO of course…..

  • Dewi

    The Greek ethnographer Pytheas was the first to use the word “Priteni” – I suspect a translation of a “native” word like “Prydain”………wish I never started this….

  • Greenflag

    ‘The thing is loads of nationalists are nationalists based on a belief that the “Irish” are a completely distinct race from the “British” and have been in Ireland from time immemorial.’

    In earlier centuries lots of people believed the moon was made of cheese and the sun moved around the earth and the oul chap wearing feathers and poncing up and down throwing bones to foretell the future actually could see the future .Some of us have moved beyond that stage of mental development .

    Much of our ‘learned’ history is ‘mythology’. The Irish are not the only people on the planet to have ‘mythological’ origins . British history is replete with Anglo Saxon ‘hero worship ‘ yet the DNA people /scientists now tell us that the Anglo Saxons and their descendants represent a minority of the population of England . If the people of Ireland feel comfortable using the term Celtic to describe their ancestry and those of England feel comfortable using the term Anglo Saxon what matter ?

    Irish ‘nationalism’ of the early 1800’s was very pragmatic , political power focused and predominantly english speaking . Daniel O’Connell was no fan of the Irish language . Oddly enough it was predominantly many of the Anglo Irish who dug up much of the Celtic romanticism which later came to symbolise and become part of the ‘independence’ struggle .

    ‘Hence the “colonizer” and “planter” jibes.’

    These ignorant jibes resonate more in Northern Ireland for obvious local political and historical reasons .Do they make jibes at Gerry Adams for his ‘planter’ name ? How does ultra loyalist Roy Gillespie feel about being a Celt ?and his ancestors being the servants of a bishop ? Open a Dublin telephone directory and you will see many names that are a lot more exotic than so called native irish or native planter 🙂

    ‘It appears you are nationalist for other reasons and I think that fair enough ‘

    For pragmatic economic and political reasons . Nationalism is like arsenic -best taken in small doses. I’m not into national glorification except on a temporary basis at say an international sporting event 🙂

    ‘sort of in the vein of Wolfe Tone say.’

    Wolfe Tone did’nt like Irish music . He also would’nt have known a Celt from a Sunt . He did see that Ireland was suffering and not developing as it should under British rule . He took Irish ‘nationalism’ a step further and built on the separatist views of earlier anglo irish ‘complainers’ about the condition of Ireland and the powers of England which were inhibiting the growth and development of nascent irish industries from the mid 17th century on.

    ‘However, for lots more it’s pure misguided sectarianism.’

    Of course . Ignorance and sectarianism go together . Like a chicken and egg . BTW is there such a thing as guided sectarianism ? And what if anything would it be good/bad for ?

    Guided sectarianism could be said to have led of to the carving out of the Northern Ireland State in 1920. It also led to the Catholic inspired 1937 Irish Constitution.

  • Congal Claen

    Hi Dewi,

    Apparently, they were quite meticulous in their record taking. So, I suspect otherwise. Priteni also refers to both main islands.

  • pfhl

    congal claen

    I had to leave the other night and watch my beloved celtic so i am only getting back to you. I believe you misunderstand my stance. You talk in early posts in this thread how ireland will return to the fold eventually. I said this is nonsense.

    You quoted me on saying,’The demonisation of al things english? So do the irish people not folow soccer? From your earlier comment i assume they do, i know i do. Do they not follow rugby? Once again i believe they do. Do the schools teach english? I beieve they do. Do they travel to england? I believe they do. Do they listen to English musicians? I believe they do. ,’ which i said of course.

    You left out me saying,’You have just resorted to rhetoric and failed to address my points about how irish nationalists have embraced the EU project and are a state that is very pro-immigration in terms of the goverment.’

    Once again you stick to your anti-outsider stance on irish nationalism which is unjustified. You continue to fail to justify this. You talk rubbish and write your unjustified opioions of irish natioalism and believes this backs up your stance irish nationalists will want to be part of britian in the future. Provide some concrete evidence why you think this outside of your ill informed views of irish nationalism.

  • pfhl

    CONGAL CLAEN

    The thing is loads of nationalists are nationalists based on a belief that the “Irish” are a completely distinct race from the “British” and have been in Ireland from time immemorial.

    Do you sum up your politics from who you think is racially the same to you? I know for certain I do not. I would probably vote for big ian if i did, we both derive our surnames from scottish places. You sound like something out of Mein Kampf talking like that. Look at practical issues like the rest of us do.

  • pfhl

    CONGAL CLAEN

    ‘Remember, the Serbs stood with us against Nazi Germany.’

    So should have we have overlooked genocide and war crimes? Were they racially inferior?

  • gaelgannaire

    One eyed hound of valour,

    Chapter 5. is right up your street.

    http://opus.kobv.de/ubp/volltexte/2007/1568/pdf/celtic_languages_in_contact.pdf

  • Prince Eoghan

    Pete.

    >>Why there is no Celtic section in the National Museum of Ireland.
    Posted by Pete Baker on Mar 05, 2008 @ 11:47 PM< < I really don't know, have you asked? Greenflag >>‘Were there any differences in the people of Ireland middle ages? ‘

    Yes there were a lot of differences .< < But no major or minor ethnic, racial or cultural differences! Congal @ 11:56 AM One crucial difference. Those 'Celts' (a coverall Pete) in England have adopted a Germanic idea of Britishness, a strange mixed up cukoo. Funnily enough the south coast of England has the same percentage 'Celtic' gene pool as Scotland, roughly 70% from memory, the south west mainly 'Celtic', whilst east Anglia mainly Germanic/Dane. And Agreed on Kosovo, a fucking disgrace, and all to piss of the Russki's I bet. Greenflag ((again) sorry I am working my way down) >>Given the Serbian attempt to exterminate the Kosovars in the recent Balkan conflict the Kosovars are within their rights to want separation from Serbia.<< The Kosovars are Serbs, I think you might be gatting mixed up with Albanians who have settled there these past hundred or so years. As for the rest of your whingefest, I thought we were all having a conversation and throwing in our two bob's worth. That is all I am doing here.

  • Dewi

    Please forgive my geekness but:

    Pretani was made up after islands discovered – our word was probably summat like “Prydain” – greeks and Romands usually hardened consonants – thus our great resistant leaders went from “Caradog and Buddug” (which is how we remember them) to “Caractucus and Boudicea” – I know it’s a bore but there we are.

  • Congal Claen

    Hi pfhl,

    “The demonisation of al things english”

    You misunderstand what I’m saying there. I meant nationalists in general – not you in particular. As for the race thing I said that I felt Irish nationalists view themselves as different to the British, not me. I you followed the thread you would know that I think the history of these islands is nuch more complicated (and interesting) than that.

    “Once again you stick to your anti-outsider stance on irish nationalism which is unjustified. You continue to fail to justify this.”

    Anti English doesn’t mean anti-outsider.

    “So should have we have overlooked genocide and war crimes?”

    In relation to Kosovo I remember the images of prisoners in camps with the clear implication by our media that these were concentration camps similar to those run by the Nazis. I also seem to remember that aerial photos were shown purporting to be mass graves. However, after the UN took control I don’t remember much coverage of all the mass graves being uncovered. I also suspect that part of the reason for intervention was to show that the West isn’t anti-Muslim.

  • Greenflag

    ‘But no major or minor ethnic, racial or cultural differences!’

    I’d guess there were some probably minor. What they were I can’t say . Does it matter anyway. Did’nt prevent any of them from beating the crap out of the neighbouring ‘kingdoms’

    ‘The Kosovars are Serbs’

    Not according to the Kosovars and I would say they know better who they are rather then you or I.

    ‘ However, after the UN took control I don’t remember much coverage of all the mass graves being uncovered.’

    Mainly because the Serbs did’nt get a chance to replicate their Bosnian Muslim genocide . I’m sure you recall Srebenica and the bodies of 8,000 young Bosnian muslims found in a mass grave -each killed by a bullet to the head by Serbian forces ! Had the Serbs managed to stay in Kosovo the number of Kosovan dead would have been in 6 figures . No question ! The USA at least on this occassion did the right thing !

    ‘I thought we were all having a conversation and throwing in our two bob’s worth. That is all I am doing here.’