Why the Irish and the British should understand the difficulties with multiculturalism

Hibernia girl unpacks the flaws of ‘multiculturalism’ by citing the ultimate in separate development: Northern Ireland.

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  • Greenflag

    ‘I guess my feeling on this majority muslim country, holds true with how I feel about the rest of the 7th century hellholes’

    Albania is about 60% Muslim the rest are Roman Catholic (Mother Teresa being the mosr famous ) and Greek Orthodox . Under Communist rule since 1945 Albania is probably the poorest country in Europe . Nevertheless the Albanians have much to be proud of . They defeated Mussolini’s Fascists and historically they have a tradition of religious tolerance that would put Northern Ireland and Serbia to shame .

    ‘The large numbers of young Muslims living in abject poverty in Kosovo plays ideally into the hands of terrorist recruiters. The city of Prizren was identified as the primary center of Islamic extremism in Kosovo, and Ekrem Avdiju, from the southern part of Kosovksa Mitrovica, was identified as one of the main propagandists of extremist Islam in the province. The analysis also identified Islamic NGOs that are linked with extremism and that are operating in Kosovo.’’

    This kind of analysis has the ring of the Vietnam /Iraq in depth think tank rubbish anthat the CIA have become world famous for . The simple truth is that the Kosovars did not want Serbian rule for reasons of basic survival . This simple fact was acknowledged by the US when they bombed Serbia in order to halt the planned extermination of the Kosovar people by the mass murdering Slobodan Milosevic . I know officers from the Irish Army who have served with the peace keeping forces in Kosovo and they know the score ! Much of Kosovar islamic militantism has been provoked by Serbian fanaticism . Kosovo is not the only country of the former Yugoslavia that escaped ‘Serbian ‘ domination .

    Albania is also unique in that it is the only European country occupied by the Nazis that ended World War II with a larger Jewish population than before the War. The Albanian response to the Holocaust is especially notable because it was Europe’s only largely Muslim country. Even so only a Jewish family of six was deported and killed during the Nazi occupation of Albania.[18] Not only did the Albanians protect their own Jews, but they provided refuge for Jews from neighboring countries. The Albanians refused to comply and hand over lists of Jews. Instead they provided the Jewish families with forged documents and helped them disperse in the Albanian population.

    The population of Albania is 3.5 million with possibly 1 million in Kosovo . If there is to be a Greater Albania I’m sure all Europe will NOT be ‘terrified ‘ of these ‘moslems’ Albania had a long tradition of religious tolerance before it was communised .

    As an American I’m sure you support your government’s choice of allies in Turkey (95% Islamic), Saudi Arabia (Christian Bibles banned and ‘witchcraft ‘ still a criminal offence ! There’s nothing hypocritical about Americas’s dedication to supporting ‘democracy’ in all those allie countries except those that have oil eh ?

    Don’t get me wrong -I’m aware of the threat of the islamic nut brigades but I have a problem branding all Islamists as crypto terrorists just as much as branding all Northern Ireland Protestants or Catholics as hate filled fanatics . Poverty and political oppression is the fuel which is fanning most of the terrorism in the Middle East .

  • Greenflag

    ‘I do not think Ireland had to be so throughly under UK economic control at the time. ‘

    All of Ireland was part of the UK until 1922. Almost all of Ireland’s trade with the outside world was through the UK prior to that time .

    ‘ It seems to me there must have been at least some measures that might yield some better economic results.’

    Yes there were some measures that could have taken earlier . Professor Joe Lee in his book Ireland 1912 to 1969 details the comparative economic performance of both the Irish Free State and later the Republic (from 1949) with that of Northern Ireland , and both with the smaller European countries such as Denmark and Finland IIRC . Lee has a dim view of the performance of both Southern and Northern administrations . If you want to add ‘meat’ to your ‘shinner mentality’ point Lee’s book should be worth reading . I take the view that they could have moved sooner (the Irish Republic) post World War 2 circa 1947/48 to make the economic policy changes that were necessary. Instead the country reverted to ultra nationalist /republican hype and blamed the country’s economic and social woes on the unjust ‘partition’ . This was a diversion and a complete waste of the country’s energies .

    Eventually the changes were made in 1957 about 10 years ‘late’ by my estimation .

    ‘We started out discussing hate between the two communities in NI and I would put more weight on that factor than you in the problems in NI ‘

    There is some hate but it’s not ineradicable . People on both sides are concerned in a few areas about their physical security but it’s much better than it used to be . I know and have worked with people from both groups in NI and believe it or not they are not consumed by hate to the extent you imagine .

    ‘I think the inward focus was more harmful in many areas in addition to economics and you seem to disagree.’

    I agree that some of the inward focus proved later to be harmful but at the time there were not a lot of practical alternatives . As I said above Prof Joe Lee ‘s book goes into the subject in more detail than you might ever want to know 🙂

    In fact it should be compulsory reading for the present NI Administration .It might help to save them 12 years of going around in circles as they strive to initiate economic policies which will turnaround NI’s heavily public sector dominated economy (70%).

    Glad you found it enlightening !

  • BfB

    Take a look at these FACTS and tell me whether living in a muslim country is bad or good. My point is that muslim is bad.. for everybody. The evidence is overwhelming. You poofie EU wankers don’t seem to understand that. Are you in fear, or just thunderously stupid ? Muslim countries admitted into the EU will be bad for the EU. Can’t wait to hear the wailing when the EU asks for troops to quell the ‘disaffected youths’ rioting over a effin cartoon.
    Greenflag, do you get paid by the word?

  • Robbie

    Having gone through this thread, what becomes clear is how little BFB actually knows about history or politics. Every comment seems to gravitate towards a dimwitted and highly ill-informed disapproval of Muslims, generalizing and bracketing in the way that has made many of his/her countrymen and in particular the semi-imbecile you elected twice so famous. It is pathetic, though quite amusing in a very small way. There is clearly very little else BFB has to say other than ‘Muslims bad’.

    It is the black and white, facile, with us or against us, Muslim bad – Christian good ethos that has so plagued great swathes of the world in the US military’s quest to fulfil it. The charred and broken bodies of US soldiers from Vietnam to Somalia to the deserts of Iraq have not deterred these ventures and this mindeset one little bit evidently. The rant about how Islam is almost as bad as the ‘great danger’ of socialism is truly breathtaking. I always marvelled at the way hysterical fundamentalists – Christian ones, unfortunately for you – such as have often been groomed and trained in the south of the States concoct grand conspiracy theories. There are some here in Northern Ireland too. Paisley’s early nomenclature goes along the lines of the Roman Catholic Church as akin to the Kremlin in Moscow, natural bedfellows apparently, as was the kind of garbage the less intelligent Unionists used to spout. Great conspiracies which amazingly seemed to involve everyone they ever disagreed with combining, no matter how diametrically opposed these entities seemed. But this new cocktail of Islamism and Socialism – very similar ideologies, of course, working for similar aims certainly – is very imaginative, and, well, utterly insane and ludicrous. I always thought the evil socialists were atheists, yet now they worship Allah? Very strange. You could attack socialism in numerous ways, but this intimation of a partnership with Islamism – and Catholicism, perchance? – is fantastic: do little green men chair their meetings? Is Elvis the Chairman of this Islamist-Socialist Alliance?

    Greenflag has already proved himself a more capable, reasoned and astute writer on this than BFB will ever be. So I would advise in some way him/her trying to gain some kind of an education before meandering along here aggressively lambasting Muslims, multiculturalism and socialism, like some deluded bitter little lackey of so-called ‘patriotism’ – as always the last refuge of a scoundrel.

  • Greenflag

    ‘My point is that muslim is bad.. for everybody. The evidence is overwhelming.’

    Is it ? How about Catholics is bad ? Protestants is bad ? Jews is bad ? Pakistanis is bad , Black people is bad , Chinese is bad , Indians is bad , People who ride bicycles is bad . I’ve heard it all before and it’s just ignorance dressed up in paranoia, fear and xenophobia .

    ‘ Are you in fear, or just thunderously stupid ‘

    Naw we just stand in awe at the long list of El Macho Presidente Bush’s victories as he pursues his foreign policy successes in Iraq , Afghanistan , Pakistan, Turkey, Kurdistan , and Iran throwing 10 billion dollars a month into a hole in the ground while Americans face economic recession , an ever mounting national debt and fiscal irresponsibilty of their government on a scale that has never been seen in their history. We just wonder how much more damage he can inflict on his own country before the american people get some sense and boot him and his ‘compassionate’ conservatives from office in November.

    ‘Muslim countries admitted into the EU will be bad for the EU.’

    They will not be admitted unless they agree to abide by laws upheld in the ECHR and upcoming European Constitution which guarantee the right of the individual to freedom of religion , the right to vote and equal rights for women and minorities throughout the Union. So the reverse in fact is closer to the truth . Membership of the EU would be good for countries such as Albania and perhaps Turkey. It would also be good for so called Christian countries like Serbia however they seem to be still occupied reliving the glories of the 13th century 🙁

  • Greenflag

    ‘But this new cocktail of Islamism and Socialism – very similar ideologies, of course, working for similar aims certainly – is very imaginative, and, well, utterly insane and ludicrous. I always thought the evil socialists were atheists, yet now they worship Allah? Very strange. You could attack socialism in numerous ways, but this intimation of a partnership with Islamism – and Catholicism, perchance? – is fantastic: do little green men chair their meetings? Is Elvis the Chairman of this Islamist-Socialist Alliance? ‘

    LOL 🙂 I recommend you dig up Isaac Asimov’s ‘The Roving Mind ‘ which is a series of essays in one of which he tears to pieces the simplistic rational of Christian good Atheists bad .Asimov also brings Northern Ireland into his evaluation .

    ‘I always marvelled at the way hysterical fundamentalists – Christian ones, unfortunately for you – such as have often been groomed and trained in the south of the States concoct grand conspiracy theories. There are some here in Northern Ireland too.’

    Perhaps BFB is a graduate student of that world renowned institution of Higher Conspiratorial Studies – the Bob Jones University :)? On the other hand BfB could be a closet worshipper of the Flying Spaghetti Monster 🙁

  • Jeff

    “even later did not believe that the Irish could become ‘economically’ independent .”

    £5 billion subvention.

  • Greenflag

    “even later did not believe that the Irish could become ‘economically’ independent .”

    £5 billion subvention.

    Presumably this is a reference to the current Northern Ireland subvention. As I’m not into mental telepathy you’ll have to expand whatever point you are trying to make if you expect a response!

    I presume this is a reference to the extent Of Northern Ireland’s dependence on the British Exchequer?

    “even later did not believe that the Irish could become ‘economically’ independent .”

    £5 billion subvention.

    Many Unionists in Northern Ireland argue that a United Ireland could not sustain these levels of public sector employment, particularly as only 32% of the economy of the Republic of Ireland is contributed by government expenditure. Many in favour of a United Ireland argue that it is this dependence on the public sector that dissaudes potential investors, causing Northern Ireland’s relative poverty

  • Greenflag

    ‘even later did not believe that the Irish could become ‘economically’ independent .”

    £5 billion subvention.

    Presumably this is a reference to the current Northern Ireland subvention. As I’m not into mental telepathy you’ll have to expand whatever point you are trying to make if you expect a response.

  • Greenflag

    Moderator -Pleas delete post No 8 above on Feb 22, 2008 @ 02:10 PM.

    It’s a mess 🙁
    Thanks

  • BfB

    ‘They will not be admitted unless they agree to abide by laws upheld in the ECHR and upcoming European Constitution which guarantee the right of the individual to freedom of religion , the right to vote and equal rights for women and minorities throughout the Union’
    Ok, thunderously stupid it is. Wonderful, trite musing from you powdered wigged nancys. I’ll change my terminology a bit. Islam is bad. I’m sure Buddhist agree as well as most other non Islam religions. Dispute the facts. Explain to me where isalmist incursions have been a benifit anywhere in the world. The Nordic countries are sure happy to have them around.
    This sums it up nicely…
    What was the first sign that Europe was suicidal?

    If we take just the period after World War II, I’d say the collaboration and support of Communism and the Soviet Union on the part of many European intellectuals and politicians, coupled with hysterical anti-Americanism, was an important sign that European civilization was intellectually and morally bankrupt. The failure to see the true nature of Communism — that it is an ideology diametrically opposed to all the ideals of liberal democracy Europeans touted and enjoyed — bespeaks a suicidal collapse of certainty in the rightness of Western Civilization’s achievements, particularly respect for the individual, human rights, and political freedom. More recently, the flacid response to jihadist terror and European Muslim aggression against those same ideals also signifies an exhausted civilization unwilling to defend itself, and resentful of those like the United States who will.

    Yep, it’s all about Iraq and…

    India and the Sudan and Algeria and Afghanistan and New York and Pakistan and Israel and Russia and Chechnya and the Philippines and Indonesia and Nigeria and England and Thailand and Spain and Egypt and Bangladesh and Saudi Arabia and Ingushetia and Dagestan and Turkey and Kabardino-Balkaria and Morocco and Yemen and Lebanon and France and Uzbekistan and Gaza and Tunisia and Kosovo and Bosnia and Mauritania and Kenya and Eritrea and Syria and Somalia and California and Argentina and Kuwait and Virginia and Ethiopia and Iran and Jordan and United Arab Emirates and Louisiana and Texas and Tanzania and Germany and Australia and Pennsylvania and Belgium and Denmark and East Timor and Qatar and Maryland and Tajikistan and the Netherlands and Scotland and Chad and Canada and China and Nepal
    and the Maldives and…

    …and pretty much wherever Muslims believe their religion tells them to:

    “Fight those who do not believe in Allah, … nor follow the religion of truth… until they pay the tax in acknowledgement of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.”
    Qur’an, Sura 9:29

  • Greenflag

    ‘What was the first sign that Europe was suicidal? ‘

    Assuming it was/is I’d say the first sign was in the wars of religion in 16th century Germany when 7 million people (or one third of the entire population of the time )were killed on account of having the wrong religion either Catholic or Protestant or none at all. France followed up with it’s massacre of the Huguenots (French Protestants ) in the 17th century . The British had their Civil Wars so too the Spanish, Italians etc etc . All told I’d estimate that a body count of the numbers killed in the name of religion would give the Disunited Christian parties a clear lead over the ‘backward’ Moslems . Buddhists and Shintoists also had a centuries long religious differences bloodbath in Japan .

    ‘Explain to me where islamist incursions have been a benifit anywhere in the world.’

    It may not have crossed your mind but much of Europe’s medieval civilisation , architecture , mathematics , poetry , etc was inspired and in many cases derived from Islamic ‘civilisation’. Have you visited the Alhambra in Spain or seen Istanbul . Baghdad was at one time the pinnacle of ‘material’ civilisation at a time when most europeans lived in mud huts ! .

    ‘.and pretty much wherever Muslims believe their religion tells them to:

    “Fight those who do not believe in Allah, … nor follow the religion of truth… until they pay the tax in acknowledgement of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.”
    Qur’an, Sura 9:29 ‘

    Ah yes now I see the fundamentalist link coming through in all it’s abject simplicity 🙁

    The above quote is one that we Irish would well laugh at for ye see we’ve heard it all before for several centuries in fact :).

    When Her Majesty’s Government tried to impose the ‘religion of truth’ i.e protestantism and pay the tax in acknowledgement of superiority and keep us in a state of subjection back in the 1600’s we said no thanks and please go away . They did’nt listen then and I’m sure many have regretted not listening since 🙂 Had they not tried to drum democracy sorry protestantism down our recusant necks we might have willingly have come around to that way of thinking . America’s policy of forced ‘democratisation ‘ and ‘westernisation’ backfired in Iran in the 80’s and it’s now done the same in Iraq and Afghanistan .

    No doubt you believe in the literal truth of the bible just as the Islamist believes in the truth of Islam . Being a non believer in the literal truth of either Bible or Koran but having some respect for many (but not all)of the moral imperatives of both -I rely only on my own knowledge and observations of the world .

    That knowledge tells me that yes there is much to fear from the religious fanatics of Islam and there is also much to fear from some of the religious fanatics of the evangelical movement . There would also be much to fear from a resurgent politically powerful Roman Catholicism if that was a possibility which of course is not the case .

    Whether it be the religion of the fanatical Crusaders of the 12th century , or the medieval totalitarianism of Roman Catholicism or the inane rantings of 20th century ‘reborns’ Evangelicals it’s all the bloody same horseshit . Eventually people have enough and they will turn their backs to the religious police – the ranting bible thumpers and the self serving priests for all of the latter can only promise ‘good things’ for their followers in the next life and a good life for themselves alone in this one 🙁

  • Jimmy

    Greenflag, In reference to your post no5 .of course some parts of all Ethnic societies are bad. But Islam is now a nemesis to the west culturally and religiously, it is totally incompatible with western Civilisation its political and Humanitarian norms, a Religion and way of life stuck somewhere in medieval times manifested as theocracy. Islam but with explosives and machine guns.
    By its very purpose it is a crusade, it’s made no mistake about that. That mentality is stuck somewhere in the 11th century. No one in their right mind would see any accession Muslim state to the EU abide by western political norms. Nations and cultures who have not experienced the European social movements such as the enlightenment, reformation and humanist movements will simply not be politically and socially mature enough to become part of Europe. Islam and Muslim nations are just simply too different. Huntingdon made that point in ‘The clash of civilisations’ Only Islam can not be called civilised by any standard.

    We all know about George W Bush, yes he’s and idiot but look at it this way, he is the only western leader ready to tackle Islamic Fascism while others put their heads in the sand. Albeit gun ho about it but can you rationalise with Islam? I mean the victims of 11-9, Madrid and London had nothing to do with the policies of George Bush the perpetrators were fascist Islamic crusaders and nothing more, It has been suggested that the rise of Islamic Fascism is a reaction to what they see as a lost Islamic empire and they want to resurrect it. No one can excuse this as some kind of moral reaction to The West, certainly not. Furthermore all this American bashing should be put into context. During the cold war who was it that Defended Europe from The evil scourge of Communism, yep the Yanks, Who sent their youth to die on the battlefields of Korea and Vietnam? Again the Evil Yanks. This yank bashing is nothing more than the proverbial biting the hand that feeds it. We criticise it but we are the first to go running to it when we need it both economically and militarily. American investment both in soft and hard power in Europe including Ireland saved it many a time from what was by far the most evil and corrupt political system the world has ever seen.
    Is it correct to compare Islam to this? I think yes.
    “A recent poll in the UK showed that a third of young British Muslims say they want to live under sharia law and think that anyone who wants to leave the faith should be put to death for apostasy. This is a third of British Muslims. 68% of British Muslims think that their neighbours who insult Islam should be arrested and prosecuted. 78% think that the Danish cartoonists should be brought to justice. These people do not have a clue about what constitutes a civil society.
    Would I prefer Christian religious fundamentalist given the choice? by far yes. They may be religious nuts, but they are our religious nuts.
    God forbid if the Chinese or Russians were in a position that America is, they certainly do not have the same ideas of western civilisation. Some people may not like it but It is the only defender of what we value in the west.
    Grenflag in post 12 you state that ‘Democracy manifested as Protestantism was forced down the Irish Throats’, may I remind you that Democracy is Protestantism, it was born out of the Reformation and later Enlightenment periods, and Protestantism was the Vanguard of the democracy movement, free speech and Liberty against church and state, theocracy and autocracy.In a way this is what the USA is doing as the defender of these principles. Are you suggesting that Catholics return to Papal theocracy and feudalism because the English administered democracy in Ireland?

  • Greenflag

    ‘Greenflag in post 12 you state that ‘Democracy manifested as Protestantism was forced down the Irish Throats’, may I remind you that Democracy is Protestantism, it was born out of the Reformation and later Enlightenment periods, and Protestantism was the Vanguard of the democracy movement, free speech and Liberty against church and state, theocracy and autocracy’

    When I wrote the actual words ‘democracy sorry protestantism ‘ I was suggesting that forcing protestantism down Irish necks in the 17th century was not dissimilar to trying to force ‘democracy’ down the necks of Iraqis in the 21st century . I’m very well aware of the role of Protestantism in the development of democracy and of the historical reactionary role of the RC Church in trying to restrict ‘democratic ‘ ideals . So no need to get an apoplectic fit 🙂

    ‘No one in their right mind would see any accession Muslim state to the EU abide by western political norms.’

    Then they won’t ever become EU members . It’s that simple .

    ‘Nations and cultures who have not experienced the European social movements such as the enlightenment, reformation and humanist movements will simply not be politically and socially mature enough to become part of Europe’

    So out of Europe goes Spain , Portugal, Slovenia, Croatia , Hungary, Poland ? I don’t think so .

    ‘Islam and Muslim nations are just simply too different. Huntingdon made that point in ‘The clash of civilisations’’

    Indeed they are different but so too was Russia (some might say still is , and China and India etc etc). Even most of Ireland was considered to be outside the Pale at one time.

    ‘ We all know about George W Bush, yes he’s and idiot but look at it this way, he is the only western leader ready to tackle Islamic Fascism while others put their heads in the sand.’

    I did’nt have any problem with Pres Bush going after those responsible for the 9/11 mass murder by going into Afghanistan or even initially into Iraq to remove Saddam Hussein . But like many others now, including probably a majority of Americans I question the results achieved, the costs incurred in lives lost, property destroyed , American image tarnished , the long term consequences of an even more unstable Middle East , and the probable effect of all of this on ‘oil ‘ supplies without which of course ‘western ‘ civilisation would grind to a halt .

    ‘Is it correct to compare Islam to this?(Communism ) I think yes. ‘

    Nonsense . Islamic States vary widely in their economic , strategic and political interests . Some are still tribal kingdoms ruled by a decadent aristocracy , some are democratic States like Pakistan and Turkey some are in the far east e.g Indonesia . Not all islamic States are Arab neither do all have ‘oil’. They are not under the control of one powerful Islamic State or leader . In terms of military capability and economic power all the major Islamic states of the middle and near east cannot even defeat Israel never mind the USA or the EU .

    BTW -I’m not an American basher . I still believe America to be the ‘hope’ for the world even though my ‘faith’ has dimmed these past few years . I prefer to believe that the people of the USA would fare better if they put as much of an effort in terms of politcal energy and financial resources to reviving ‘democracy’ in the USA rather than trying to export it to countries which may not yet be ready for it !

    ‘A recent poll in the UK showed that a third of young British Muslims say they want to live under sharia law and think that anyone who wants to leave the faith should be put to death for apostasy.’

    Look on the bright side – Two thirds don’t ! Young people tend to moderate their views as they get older in the vast majority of cases anyway .

    As for Huntington’s clash of civilisations ? I take the view that Western Civilisation as we know is it’s own worst enemy . The enemy is not Islam it is ourselves. But that’s another topic !

    .