Foreign workers – the wrong type of Catholics, according to Sinn Fein MLA…

CATHOLIC workers from outside Northern Ireland should not be counted as Catholics, according to Sinn Fein’s Martina Anderson, since it apparently gives a false impression of the number of nationalists in employment. Whether this counts as racism, xenophobia or sectarianism I’ll leave it to the debate below, but it’s certainly clear that for this MLA, immigrants are not the right type of Catholics, since they are not (she assumes) Irish nationalists. I think this is pretty insulting to immigrant workers and many employers (and I’m sure that more than a handful of republicans and nationalists will take umbrage), but what is her solution? Since it would probably be silly or illegal to ask foreign Catholics to tick the ‘other’ religious box on their job application, as she suggests, what is her alternative? Should people seeking employment tick a box stating their political persuasion? And how would that help lessen discrimination, rather than increase it? It’s rare that Sinn Fein MLAs exhibit such a narrow view of the world these days, but – at a time when you could barely slip a cigarette paper between the employment gap separating the two main traditions in Northern Ireland – this is the kind of atavistic thinking you would be lucky to hear from the BNP these days. UPDATE: The Equality Commission and the DUP’s Gregory Campbell has weighed in (see below fold).Anderson said: “They should be categorised as having a background of ‘other’. Employers do not perceive migrant workers as belonging to the local nationalist or unionist communities and this is artificially inflating the Catholic/nationalist representation in the workforce, the bulk of whom are from Catholic countries. The same situation has arisen within the internal tracking systems of the PSNI making it difficult to track the true numbers of Catholics/nationalist applying or being appointed locally.”

So many assumptions, where does one start?

It’s bad enough having to reveal your religious identity when applying for a job here, but you should at least be allowed to express what that actually is. To have another religious identity imposed is bad enough, but for it to be regarded as meaningless is more than insulting.

Since Anderson really wants to know the number of Irish nationalists in the workforce, the only real alternative is to ask jobseekers to reveal their political beliefs on application forms.

Can anyone really see this ever happening?

UPDATE from the News Letter:

DUP MP Gregory Campbell said Sinn Fein was trying to obscure the true picture.

“If you take this issue of categorisation to its logical conclusion, it would mean that everyone not born here would have to be described as ‘others’ or ‘outsiders’ – it’s ludicrous.

“If people are coming to work here, they are part of the Northern Ireland community so you don’t continue to categorise them as outsiders or ‘others’ as this can make the situation worse.”

He said Sinn Fein had a problem with what the figures were showing.

“The figures show an emerging pattern which is Protestant under-representation in the workforce and this is a smokescreen to try and divert attention from the real issue, which is to address that under-representation which I and others have been highlighting for years now.”

Meanwhile, in the Irish News, Bob Collins, chief commissioner of the Equality Commission said any alteration would require legislative change.

However, he said new methods are under consideration.

“The data contained in the monitoring report is an accurate account of the returns given by all registered employers under the terms of the current legislation,” he said.

  • Belfast Gonzo

    Bizarrely, Rory appears to be opposing the institutionalised sectarianism of the past by proposing even more.

    You guys have some weird arguments.

    Dubliner, if Catholic/Protestant are no longer good enough, what do you propose indigenous applicants to the PSNI be described as?

    If you plump for unionist/nationalist, can you imagine if applicants to the Garda would mind ticking what party they voted for?

  • al

    bit of a comedy from Martina but more important points here:

    a) A rather small percentage of the population are “practising” of whatever persuasion. I believe I saw a figure of something like 8% actually bother to go to Church. That means most of those actually stumping up and saying “what they are” aren’t exactly defining themselves by it I would suggest.

    b) A growing minority, likely to be majority soon enough, describe themselves as atheist or no religion. What do they tick on the form?

    c) Why does it actually matter? I’m not sure how many other countries in the world demand to know your religion/background on a job application. In most cases does that information bear any relevance to the job? Unlikely. Surely the main issue to be discussed is why jobs aren’t always filled based on merit. If that means you get 8/10 jobs going to a protestant in any given situation, or 8/10 going to catholics, or a bunch of them evil atheists!!! who really gives a flying faece?

  • eranu

    cant believe some people have tried to justify martinas comments. we all know what the shinners are at, they just want to slip as many republicans into NIs institutions as possible.
    while its sensible to try to have a police force that resembles the religious and ethnic balance of the country, you simply cant have a quota for people with certain political beliefs. policing is supposed to be free of that, think about it.
    anyone calling for most police forces in england to be majority labour, with a certain number of BNP people? pretty silly eh?

  • bollix

    SF newsflash
    Bears no longer sh1t in woods and the last pope was not a catholic.

    Having immigrants in NI is great, it really shakes up our antiquated notions of who we are and who the “other” is. Of course, there never was any real ethnically “pure” era when we had 2 completely distinct communities.
    Forcing polish catholics to describe themselves as non-catholics shows how absurd and insular we can be.

  • twenty21

    She should go back to Vikingland.

  • You still don’t get it. Martina is simply pointing out that demographic changes here need to be kept in mind when deciding how to build a normal society.

    No, I get it fine. I just don’t want to live in the sort of society that lies at the logical endpoint of Martina’s proposals: a Balkanised shithole where what you are is more important than who you are. I appreciate that is and has been the problem with Northern Ireland since its inception, but you don’t cure a problem by compounding it. That’s like saying binge eating is the cure for obesity.

    Your granularity idea has problems that its proponents conveniently overlook – the more categories you have, and the less people in some of those categories, the more difficult it is to gather statistically valid data. If you don’t like that, blame God for setting up the universe the way it is.

    But at a more philosophical level, what you and Martina support reminds me of the French Colonial Americas, where there were several dozen categories for filing people into depending on their precise racial admixture. For me going back to a world of sambos, mullatos, octaroons and pickanninnies, or their modern, sociologically correct, analogues, is a depressingly backwards step. No matter how well intentioned.

    Martina may well have been speaking with sincerity, but it sounded like she was saying ‘No Poles Here’. One wonders if that’s what she wanted it to sound like.

  • Bob From Boston

    ‘This is WHY the New Arrivals are here. They are doing the jobs we won’t. They are doing the jobs that the far-higher level of economically inactive (look it up before you comment) won’t do either.’

    Yikes!! This rubrick is what’s fueling the end of the USA and the beginning of the EU…err, ahh, NU (North American Union) that is..enjoy your country while it lasts..

  • Belfast Gonzo

    Sammy

    Can I be the first to point out that a republican has called for the word ‘Catholic’ to no longer mean universal?

  • Reporter: Is there a threat to Gerry Adams’ leadership?

    Martina Anderson: Is the Pope a Catholic?

    Discuss.

  • Belfast Gonzo

    Bob, being from Boston, you’d think you’d know that immigration also fuelled the start of the USA. What generation of immigrant are you?

  • lib2016

    Is it possible that unionists have become so entrenched in their thinking that they have become incapable of discussing Human Rights legislation in a reasonable way?

    Northern Ireland politics has always been about jobs and houses and the only way to keep track of what is happening is to gather statistics. Since unionists seem to be doing rather badly at the moment why do they fear rational discussion of ways to ensure fairness in their distribution.

  • qubol

    So many of you are missing the point here. As MCT points out, these stats perform an important social function. If you’re ever unfortunate enough to face discrimination in the work place you’ll understand just how important this information is. All this begs the question – what’s the point of collecting statistically flawed data?

    Don’t shoot the messenger

  • The Dubliner

    “If you plump for unionist/nationalist, can you imagine if applicants to the Garda would mind ticking what party they voted for?”

    The Gardai don’t have a history of discriminating against minorities. Those who have a history of offending need to be carefully monitored, not those who don’t. That is why the only people on the Sex Offenders Register are sex offenders.

  • liberachi

    The Gardai don’t have a history of discriminating against minorities.

    How do you know?

    How many prods are in the Gardai?

    How may gay/lesbian/bisexual people

    How many who can’t jump over artifical hurdles such as Irish Language competence?

  • Bob From Boston

    I’m second generation Irish, and once again, to compare modern day, mostly illegal, immigration to steal the treasure of the host country, with the hard working, honest immigrants who came LEGALLY, paid their dues, and built a great country, is bullshit wankerism. And you young, airheaded multiculturalist do not have a clue about honest and hardworking, so.. enjoy your country while it lasts. The one that had you nothing to do with being what it is, but will happily give away…
    tsk, tsk…….

  • nuttal

    “I’m second generation Irish, and once again, to compare modern day, mostly illegal, immigration to steal the treasure of the host country, with the hard working, honest immigrants who came LEGALLY, paid their dues, and built a great country, is bullshit wankerism.”

    Brilliant! You couldn’t make it up

  • DM

    [i]Those who have a history of offending need to be carefully monitored, not those who don’t. [/i]

    I take it you mean unionists such as myself. I was born long after the 60s and have never discriminated against anyone based on their religion or anything else, do I have a history of offending? On what basis can you justify exceptional ‘monitoring’ of me as a potential employer, other than ‘he’s a unionist so he can’t be trusted to be fair’ – is that not as bad as the very thing you’re railing against? You’re making assumptions about me based on the actions of people who shared my political beliefs over 40 years ago.

    By the by,I don’t think anybody has yet demonstrated how they would prevent folks from simply lying about their political opinions. A questionnaire on Irish nationalism? Fill the blanks on these Orange Order banners?

  • willowfield

    animus

    Do applications ask for primary school? None that I have filled in the last few years have asked for that.

    They certainly used to. Has this method been abandoned?

    Lib2016

    Is it possible that unionists have become so entrenched in their thinking that they have become incapable of discussing Human Rights legislation in a reasonable way?

    Human rights legislation? What’s that got to do with it?

  • Belfast Gonzo

    Dubliner

    So you’re seriously proposing losing the religious boxes in favour of the political ones?

  • Jon Juan

    Point of info on job applications in N.I. – from an Equal Opps. form I filled out this summer, question on ‘community background’:

    “If you ticked the box marked neither, please provide names and addresses of the primary/preparatory and secondary schools, which you attended.”

  • Joey

    Interesting to see The Dubliner find something to agree with Sinn Fein on. It’s the worst thing you could possibly be united on, and you nailed it. Down South the disgraceful and reactionary attitude to migrant populations twins nicely with the most inane Sinn Fein rhetoric. You exhibit it succinctly.

  • liberachi

    “If you ticked the box marked neither, please provide names and addresses of the primary/preparatory and secondary schools, which you attended.”

    What if you write Forge Integrated Primary and Lagan College?

    Or if you’re from Bangor and you write St Comgall’s Primary and St Columbanus High School. Schools which sound Catholic, are CCMS run but which have a 50% Protestant intake.

    Maybe we need to stop Prods attending Integrated or Catholic Schools in case they’re mistaken for proper SF / MCT / Dubliner approved Catholics.

  • willowfield

    The Dubliner – you suggest that the police in NI were historically guilty of discrimination in its recruitment.

    Have you any evidence for this?

    Is it not largely the case that RCs chose not to join either because of political opposition to the police or community pressure/intimidation not to join?

  • Belfast Gonzo

    Don’t forget that there was internal intimidation of Catholic RUC officers too.

    Clearly, a variety of factors were at work.

  • Animus

    Willowfield – I don’t think they ask for primary school anymore on applications. In fact, many don’t even ask for the name of the secondary school, in part to prevent the sort of second-guessing being discussed here. Yes, we all have names, so people can guess your background from that, but I think those responsible for monitoring realised that your school is not really worth knowing or applicable to your current skills. In recruitment exercises I’ve dealt with in the past couple of years, I didn’t have access to anything except their skills and competencies, so I shortlisted purely on the basis of the responses to the questions. I didn’t know whether they were men, women, Martians, whatever.

    Bob, I love how second-generation immigrants get so high and mighty about other people. It was good enough for your parents so why not other new arrivals? Do you really think the US is going to the dogs because of immigrants? Nothing to do with poor leadership at the top, poor foreign policy and a lack of direction generally?

  • darth rumsfeld

    “Out of 900 areas in total, 19 of the top 20 most deprived areas are in North and West Belfast or Derry.
    • Of the top 100 most deprived areas in NI out of a total of 900, over three quarters are within North and West Belfast or Derry.
    • Of the top 50 wealthiest areas in NI, none are in North and West Belfast or Derry.
    • In fact, of the top 100 wealthiest areas in NI out of a total of 900, only one, is in North and West Belfast or Derry, namely, the Covehill part of North Belfast, which is an historically affluent part of the city, surrounded by some of the poorest areas that suffered both economically and physically during the conflict.

    To attempt to turn is this statement into an argument about racism against immigrants coming to Ireland is an attempt to hide away from the reality of her point. The figures above clearly demonstrate the underlying point Martina Anderson is making.”

    How exactly?
    So there are certain areas which are clearly poorer, but there are many more RC areas in NI than your chosen 3-South Armagh being the most obvious. And all of your three contain large working class Protestant estates. I’m not saying you are wrong in believing that some areas are more deprived- but the Old Kent Road will always have worse social indices than Mayfair.There are many factors which explain this, one of which may indeed be discrimination, but juvenile MOPEry and selective misapplication of statistics are not proof

  • EyeOnTheNorth

    This was probably something that Ms Anderson should have thought about before she said it the way she did.
    Whatever her true feelings on the matter, this has highlighted one thing about NI society: It’s time to stop classing nationalists and unionists as Catholics and Protestants.
    The fact that we are becoming a secular society is not the issue, and I think Anderson may actually have a point here.
    If there is a risk that nationalist and unionist employment figures are going to be jeapordised by an influx of Roman Catholic boxes being ticked on monitoring forms due to migrant workers, then it should be changed to specifically state ‘Irish Catholic’ or Ulster Protestant’ or whatever.
    Then if at some stage in the future we hear about discrimination against Polish people in getting jobs (hard to imagine just now), than at least if they had “Other Catholic” or ‘Other Protestant’ boxes to tick then they might be able to get the help they need.
    [play the ball – edited moderator]

  • darth rumsfeld

    “If someone wasn’t going to give me a job because of what foot I kicked with, it would be because I was a Catholic.”
    Sammy Morse

    I wouldn’t give you a job because you’re Church of Ireland, an organisation which stole from and persecuted the one true church- the Presbyterians. Give us back our tithes and apologise for the Test Acts and then we can look at it again:0)

    While we’re on the subject , I happen to be a proud Catholic ( though not a Roman one) and not a Protestant like Sammy. I’m a Dissenter. Yet if some illiterate non-theological equality commisiion halfwit chooses to make me categorise myself as Catholic or non-catholic he’s actually insulting my religion or forcing me to lie.

  • Bob From Boston

    ‘Bob, I love how second-generation immigrants get so high and mighty about other people. It was good enough for your parents so why not other new arrivals? Do you really think the US is going to the dogs because of immigrants? Nothing to do with poor leadership at the top, poor foreign policy and a lack of direction generally?’

    My parents were legal, took nothing, worked hard, assimilated, sacrificed, made things better for everyone. I am speaking from experience. Illegal, resource stealing, fundamentally dishonest criminals are invading my country. Your blinkered view doesn’t allow you to see the difference. So, you validate my opinion that even though the evidence is clear here in the US, you will careen down the same self righteous path. Say good bye to your educational system (the best, imho), any hope of the medical care your legal citizens are entitled too, housing……etc, etc……

    High and mighty indeed…you EU, elitist, gobshite… (am I allowed to use that?)
    Tsk, tsk..

  • T.Ruth

    What about the human rights of the immigrants paid to advertise the Belfast Telegraph at the cross roads.Whats happening here -is there another explanation? Would Edmund Curran defend my right to sell strawberries at the traffic lights?-would the PSNI smile benignly at my entrepreneurial spirit.?Time to stop worrying about religious labels and realise that we are all descended from immigrants-and we must look after these newest arrivals a bit better before engaging in sectarian head count politics.Time also the EOCc got its affirmative action plan organised.
    T.Ruth

  • Suilven

    Bob from Boston,

    ‘I’m second generation Irish, and once again, to compare modern day, mostly illegal, immigration to steal the treasure of the host country, with the hard working, honest immigrants who came LEGALLY, paid their dues, and built a great country, is bullshit wankerism.’

    Yeah, yeah – I’m sure the Native Americans were delighted to see another boat of you legal immigrants docking. Now, run that one about stealing treasure by me again?

  • Belfast Gonzo

    Explain the difference it makes to your human rights when selling a newspaper a newspaper at traffic lights and selling it 200 yards away on Royal Avenue?

  • liberachi

    While we’re on the subject , I happen to be a proud Catholic ( though not a Roman one) and not a Protestant like Sammy. I’m a Dissenter.

    Huh?

    This is like one of those QI questions.

    I will play the part of the curly haired ear biting chap and ask my naive questions.

    Don’t Anglican’s claim they’re Catholic?

    Is Sammy a Prod because he says he is or because he says he’s CoI?

  • EyeOnTheNorth

    Good point Belfast Gonzo…

    I’d rather be selling telegraphs at the traffic lights than be forced to stand in the town centre shouting something like “SE-AXY TELLE”, and giving out free muffins. Now that is an abuse of human rights.

  • Bob From Boston

    ‘Yeah, yeah – I’m sure the Native Americans were delighted to see another boat of you legal immigrants docking. Now, run that one about stealing treasure by me again?’

    Native Americans? WTF? Are we going to get into the IRA armalite raffles in the ghettos of South Boston as well? Yeesh, at least you’re a consistent misinformed butt head..

  • middle-class ****

    liberachi

    My point has nothing to do with who is catholic or not, and it’s very unfair of yu to suggest that it is.

    My point is that our current methodology for collecting statistics on employment is not sufficiently sophisticated to enable us to detect the types of discrimination which can and do occur in business in the North.

  • Suilven

    liberachi,

    I think Darth’s point is that all churches claim to be catholic in the true sense of the word, and Tone’s “Protestant, Catholic and Dissenter” referred to Anglicans, RCs and Presbyterians respectively – others need not apply, presumably. Which brings us neatly back to Ms Anderson’s views…

  • Suilven

    ‘Native Americans? WTF? Are we going to get into the IRA armalite raffles in the ghettos of South Boston as well? Yeesh, at least you’re a consistent misinformed butt head.. ‘

    My my, slightly touchy there, Bob. God forbid anyone should point out that the ‘treasure’ you accuse illegal immigrants to the USA of stealing was gained via the genocide of its indigenous inhabitants…

    And for your information, the immigrants under discussion in this thread are entirely legal under EU law. So your point is what exactly?

  • Animus

    Bob, I’m from the US originally, so please save your gormless diatribe. Clearly you have no idea what you’re on about (best education system in the world? – not for everyone) Clearly you are speaking from experience, but it’s obviously rather limited. Your lazy assumptions do you no credit. And you clearly know nothing about the immigrants who are currently coming to Northern Ireland (mostly legal) and have done so for since the 70s – particularly those from China, Hong Kong and the Indian subcontinent. Save your history lessons Bob and save the name-calling. It’s rather weak to come back with personal insults in the absence of a proper discourse. (I suggest you read up on the man not ball rule.)

  • Bob From Boston

    ‘gormless diatribe’

    I was talking of the Irish/NI education…you’re obviously deaf, dumb, and blind to reason, so toddle off and find a gimp to nod in your direction. Maybe someone in the ‘Indian subcontinent’.. We don’t miss ya over here btw..
    I’ll move on. No thanks necessary.

  • cynic

    Errr dont Polish catholics have rights and doesnt ECHR gurantee the right to freedom of religion including the right to declare your religion and not have it defined, restricted or imposed by the state? So if I culturally define myself as a catholic who are SF to tell me not to?

    Should the party slogan now be changed from Ourselves Alone to Ein Volk

  • Animus

    As I said, Bob, the Irish/NI education systems aren’t even the same, so thanks for proving my point. I know the level of discussion lags here sometimes, but please come back when you have something useful to say (or perhaps when you learn to write in English – have a re-read of your post; it lacks sense).

    Middle-class t*** – our system of monitoring actually has all the information, it’s a question of how it’s analysed. Many forms now ask for ethnic origin or nationality as well as perceived community background, which could go some way in showing patterns of discrimination along the lines you’re talking about. It’s partly a question of which monitoring forms are used, as well as how data is compiled and presented.

  • middle-class ****

    cynic

    SF should not be entitled to tell you you can’t call yourself a Catholic, but that’s not what they’re doing. They’re doing. They’re simply saying that discrimination monitoring shouldn’t necessarily lump you in with local taigs.

    Animus

    Yes, you’re right – it’s not so much a matter of collection as a matter of analysis and presentation. And also a questoin of how relevant criteria are interpreted. If the RUC were to end up taking on 600 Poles, that would probably satisfy their legal 50/50 requirement, but it would fail to pursue the public interest in increasing local catholic/nationalist participation in policing.

    Ultimately, I think Gonzo’s setting himself up in a PC police role here.

  • Bob From Boston

    I was talking about the product of your educational systems….I’d hire an Irish high schooler before I’d take most US college grads, as would most of my associates. And, no illegal immigrants? What a lucky bunch you are then…..

    Now, I’m off…..
    I mean it this time…

  • Animus

    Promises, promises…

    Research recently carried out across the UK showed that immigrants are more likely to earn more and to be employed. I found some of the findings somewhat counter-intuitive considering many immigrants (anecdotally) take on low-paid work. Immigrants are shown to be less picky on jobs than locals regardless of what country they are from are what country they are going to. So your lazy Americans are hard working in the UK and lazy Norn Irish are evidently hard at work in the US. This is very little to do with education and more to do with a desire to survive and the fact that the support networks natives take for granted are usually not available to the same degree to immigrants.

  • Bob From Boston

    ‘research recently carried out across the UK’smack!

    Absolute rubbish at every turn. I’ve heard it all from you nit picking apologists. The fact remains that unchecked inflow of criminal aliens is ruining the US. It will turn your island into a third world country as well….
    Ok, let me close the cah doah and flee….

  • Animus

    If it weren’t for immigrants, the US really would be in a sorry state. If I were to worry about criminals, I would start with Mr Bush and work my way down, rather than the other way around.

    And for criminal elements, I think the paramilitaries have that one sewn up – we don’t need to import criminals when we have so many homegrown.

  • and not a Protestant like Sammy

    Protestant? Wash your mouth out!

    You’ve obviously never seen me process with the Blessed Sacrament.

  • You’ve obviously never seen me process with the Blessed Sacrament.

    Except it wasn’t the Blessed Sacrament now was it Sammy?

    No.

    It was a bit of bread.

    c.f. Leo XIII, Apostolicae Curae (Sep 15, 1896)

  • Ratzo Fan:

    congratulations on your hotline to God.

  • middle-class ****

    Now, now, Ratzinger fan. Always room for civility in ecumenical dialogue.

    So, Sammy, do Anglicans call the host the Blessed Sacrament too? Who blesses it? I thought you guys didn’t go in for all that jiggery pokery. Or is it inherently blessed? And if so, at what point in the bread making process does it become blessed? Mixing? Adding of water? Baking? Or is the flour itself blessed?

    Confusing.

  • middle-class ****:Always room for civility in ecumenical dialogue.

    The best form of ecumenical dialogue of which I am aware, is praying for the unity of the Church at Mass.

  • So, Sammy, do Anglicans call the host the Blessed Sacrament too?

    It all depends on the Anglican. The whole point of Anglicanism is diversity.

    The Catechism of the Church of Ireland states that baptism and the Eucharist are the two sacraments and there are sacramental ministries of confirmation, holy matrimony, ordination, absolution and healing.

    You might be interested in – http://www.cccdub.ie/dean/cofi/apck/protcath.html – not very theologically robust but it communicates the general idea behind the Church of Ireland quite well. Remember also that the C of I is, in general, really quite Protestant by the standards of world Anglicanism.

    Who blesses it?

    The priest, when he or she does the magic bits, er… sorry, presides over the Eucharistic Assembly at the celebration of Holy Communion. Who else?

  • Sir Herbert Mercer

    Obviously attending mass, believing in God, taking communion or giving confession don’t make you catholic.

    Shouting “Up the Ra” and hatin’ brit dirty brit bastards is what it’s all about.

    boo hoo hoo 800 years of persecution

  • Danny O’Connor

    Sammy perhaps Martina would be in favour of doing away with the term Protestant and inserting the thousands of denominations in every application form to ensure that a Methodist doesn’t discriminate against Anglicans or Baptists,or that a Presbyterian doesn’t discriminate against free Presbyterians or non subscribing Presbyterians.
    On second thoughts Martina “has lost the run of herself”

  • I hope not.

    I’m all in favour of discriminating against Presbyterians!

  • darth rumsfeld

    “I’m all in favour of discriminating against Presbyterians!”

    thought you might be you tractarian Puseyite
    :0). I hope you choke on the caviar and vintage port that your sort live on , having filched the hard earned monies of the starving blackmouths to maintain your privileged ascendancy lifestyle.

    Honestly, it’s Episcopalians like you that make me almost tolerate the Methodists….

    still, we’ll have the last laugh on the day of judgment, though the secession synod Presbyterians will have a few squeakybum moments trying to explain their well-intetnioned but unwise departure from proper dogma- and as for the burghers, well..let’s pray for them.
    Naturally the non-subscribers will be shown the door.

    And people think sectarianism is just about Prods and taigs. WE haven;t even started on the real fight. Remember Orr!

  • RepublicanStones

    wow…i wonder if that fat ginger king knew the problems he was gonna cause by feeding his carnal desires !

  • you tractarian Puseyite :0)

    Puseyites tend to be more against the ‘ordination’ of women than Sammy Morse.

  • Up the NSPCI!

    Remmember Orr whatt?

  • Up the NSPCI!

    Darth,

    Been digging. Do we remember this literalist loony?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Orr_(theologian)

    Or this rolled up trousered one?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Orr_(poet)

    Jaffa

  • thought you might be you tractarian Puseyite

    Ah, now, pace Ratzo Fan, Pusey was fine for his time and place, but I’d be more a Westcottite or Keble-ite than anything else, being a firm supporter of women at the altar and men in bed. Or in modern terms, even a Tutuite.

    Methodists are only lapsed Anglicans anyway and they’ll come back into the fold some day.

    I’m sure that, come the day of judgement, God will forgive the Prodiban their sins, but he may have to wall you all off into a special section of heaven so you aren’t disturbed by the thought the rest of us are up there too… 😉

    I think Darth was talking about the latter James Orr, Jaffa.

  • darth rumsfeld

    actually I was talking about William Orr, United Irishman executively murdered by the Protestant Ascendancy in 1796 who went to the gallows at Carrickfergus with the declaration “I die in the true faith of a Presbyterian” and hence radicalised the community to such an extent that we turned out in 1798 as a result the Episcopalians learnewd a painful lesson about not antagonising us…..

  • darth rumsfeld

    ..oops. too much eggnog
    William was of course klled in 1797

  • liberachi

    “Ahem….”

    “Most of the United Irish leadership and ideologues were born into Church of Ireland families; they became deists after 1790. This small part of the population – about 15% – included Wolfe Tone, Lord Edward Fitzgerald, Napper Tandy and Robert Emmet. While the United Irish had declared themselves to be non-sectarian from 1791, there were other liberal Protestants in the Irish Parliament who were also anti-sectarian and sought a more democratic franchise, such as Henry Grattan and John Curran.”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_of_the_United_Irishmen

    Jaffa / Liberachi / Up the NSPCI!

  • Belfast Gonzo

    darth

    Shouldn’t a true Orangeman be on the other side?!

  • middle-class ****

    You lot get rather scary when you start talking like this. It’s lucky youse have fenians to unite you. 🙂

    Happy Christmas one and all.

  • jaffa

    MCT,

    Quite right. We should be devoting ourselves to the more important questions – like who are the true inheritors of the executive authority of the first dail and which is the real Oglaigh na hEireann.

    Merry Christmas yer arse!

  • Turgon

    Sammy Morse,
    “Methodists are only lapsed Anglicans anyway and they’ll come back into the fold some day. ”

    No Sammy there are far worse craetures out there than that. There are Independent Methodists. They are not likely to rejoin you lot; I know I married one.

  • darth rumsfeld

    “Most of the United Irish leadership and ideologues were born into Church of Ireland families;”

    now liberachi, the treehugging nambypambies referred to would never have achieved anyhting had they not tapped into the resentment of the population which was at the rough end of the times. In the north, this meant a significant input from presbyterians in my area at least, as well as Donegal, Londonderry, Antrim and Down.

    ” Shouldn’t a true Orangeman be on the other side?!”

    Actually , not necessarily gonzo. Take Drew Nelson, Cof I Grand secretary, had a family tradition of service in the yeomanry at the time. David Hume, Executive Officer, is a descendant of United men in Larne, and has done an enormous amount of work to revive the memory of James Orr the weaver poet referred to above.

    On my mother’s side I’m connected to Henry Joy McCracken, and I have no problem with saying that the aims of the united men were progressive, which is why most of the survuving leaders became supporters of Pitt’s Union in later years, seeing in it the breaking of the Protestant ascendancy. Many Orange leaders bitterly opposed the Union. They were wrong, and if Orangeism hadn’t changed from 1798 it would have deservedly died out.

    Orangeism has evolved to meet the challenges of the times- I would never have backed the leadership in the campaign to prevent the disestablishment of Sammy’s Church in the 19th century- and the Orange leadership learned from that mistake never to count us as makeweights in the reformed community

    In 1898, when local nationalists attempted to “adopt” united irish heroine Betsy Gray into the campaign for Home Rule the descendants of the unitd men- now all staunch Unionists- would not hear of it.

    “It’s lucky youse have fenians to unite you. :-)”
    Amen!!!!
    :0)

    .. and even though Cromwell was unfortunately not sympathetic to God’s own people (us), he still had the right idea about Christmas-BAN IT

  • Turgon

    Darth,
    Was Henry Joy McCracken and indeed were some of the other leaders Unitarians? I once heard Paisley claim that but have not heard it elsewhere.

  • darth rumsfeld

    McCracken wasn’t actually much of a believer himself, but many of the leaders were certainly “new licht”- less adherent to the Westminster Confession

  • Turgon

    Thanks for that darth. I would wish you a Happy Christmas but in view of your previous post maybe you would rather be wished a Dour Christmas or none at all.

  • Belfast Gonzo

    darth

    I must admit to being terribly fascinated but not awfully well read on all of this, so thanks for your considered answer despite my somewhat facetious question.

    I would be interested in finding literature that delves into how many Presbyterian families of Scottish descent once aligned themselves with Irish republicans, but evolved into the staunchest defenders of the Crown.

    Regardless, does the experience of past treatment by the Crown not illustrate how conditional the loyalty of Northern Ireland’s current unionists actually is? What puzzles me is the unwavering loyalty of people like yourself to a State that consistently shows little understanding of or sympathy towards them.

    If unionism’s loyalty is conditional, why do you remain so?

  • nineteensixtyseven

    Will Tony Blair count, Martina?